days off

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PMR_doc

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hey all can anyone answer this for me?

are sick days part of the 4 days off that we get per month during rotations? or if we happen to be sick we still get 4 days off? anyone know?
 
How would that be residency dependent? ACGME rules apply to all programs

It depends on where you are doing residency. You need to contact your program/hospital to find that out.
 
Typically your schedule is set long in advance. For your residency to change your schedule because you had to take a sick day to make sure you still only have 4 days off would be unusual and require changing other people's schedules too. That said, some programs and rotations have a tradition of paying back people who have to cover for your when sick (if you're lucky enough to be at a program that is well-staffed enough to offer sick-call). If not, then your sick day means a horrible day for everyone else on your team, but typically would not impact your number of official days off per month. There might be some programs out there that make you come in extra on the weekends if you took a sick day, but I'm not aware of that happening specifically.

So, uh, try not to get sick.
 
I'm not understanding where this 4 days off per month policy is coming from. I only know that we get 21 days of vacation days as PGY1.
 
How would that be residency dependent? ACGME rules apply to all programs
My hospital has a resident union. Through them we get 4 personal days a year and 12 sick days.

My program gets 4 weeks vacation.

ACGME sets forth that for my specialty, we can only miss 75 days total over 3 years.

Thus, if I take four weeks vacation and all my personal days, that only leaves me 1 sick day a year (20 vac days + 4 personal days = 24 + 1 sick day = 25. 25 x3 yrs = 75) before I go over my total ACGME limit.

ACGME doesn't care if they were vaca, PD, sick days, maternity leave, field trips, etc. they just care if I was working in my designated specialty program that day or not.

So my institution says I can have 12 sick days per year, but if I take all my PDs and Vacation, ACGME says I can only take 1 per year. Other programs at my institution may only get three weeks vacation. Thus, they are free to utilize more of their sick days if needed (unless ACGME specifies different total days missed limit for their specialty).

An individual PD can choose to let it slide or extend residency if those days go over.

My fellowship at a different place is giving me three weeks vacation. My intern year at a different institution gave me no personal days.

There are ACGME regulations about total days off, but an institution is free to determine how many are given (and how they are designated).

That is how it is residency dependent.
 
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I'm not understanding where this 4 days off per month policy is coming from. I only know that we get 21 days of vacation days as PGY1.

I wonder if they're trying to count the 1 day off per week rule.
 
I wonder if they're trying to count the 1 day off per week rule.
I think that's probably the case. The rule states that you need to have a minimum of 1 day off in 7 averaged over a 4 week period. But they can give you as many days off as they want or can afford to, with the understanding that each specialty will have a required number of days of training in order for you to graduate on time.

So to the OP, in general, you won't lose days off if you have to take a sick day. But the ability to actually take a sick day (unless your team is rounding on you) will vary by specialty and program.

In 6 years of training, I took 2 sick days. 1 was planned 2 weeks in advance and was an extra day at the end of FMLA (covered by 2 weeks of vacation) so I could take my newborn daughter to the pediatrician while my wife had an appointment across town with her OB. The second one was after rounding in the morning and writing all NY notes, while taking breaks between patients to go puke in the bathroom. I got a friend to cover consults and admits for the afternoon.
 
Bear in mind that sick days are things you aren't expected to take lightly. In some fields you'll see people showing up to work wearing mask and gloves. In the more gung ho specialties, there's always a story of some hard working resident popping down to the ER for fluids and then doing rounds with an IV pole. We have all heard the mantra that if you aren't that sick, you should be here and if you are that sick, there's no better place for you to be than here in the hospital. So I wouldn't bank on using up sick days. They may be things you really aren't supposed to take.
 
With my program, the sick days are on top of your regular days off... but if someone is pulled to cover for you, you're expected to give up an elective day and cover an extra shift for them later on.
 
Bear in mind that sick days are things you aren't expected to take lightly. In some fields you'll see people showing up to work wearing mask and gloves. In the more gung ho specialties, there's always a story of some hard working resident popping down to the ER for fluids and then doing rounds with an IV pole. We have all heard the mantra that if you aren't that sick, you should be here and if you are that sick, there's no better place for you to be than here in the hospital. So I wouldn't bank on using up sick days. They may be things you really aren't supposed to take.
True dat. I took no sick days over the course of 4 years of residency. Feel sick? That sucks, I guess going to work will take my mind off it.
 
With my program, the sick days are on top of your regular days off... but if someone is pulled to cover for you, you're expected to give up an elective day and cover an extra shift for them later on.
Same system on my end. Someone is always on sick call during an elective. If you call them in, you owe them a shift. No free lunch.
 
I was wondering if you guys want to take your vacation, is there a restriction on when you can take it? Are some months off limits for leave?

Also, if you want to take a week of vacation, do you have to make sure that you have an upper level who can cover for you during that week?
 
Ah yes, the toxic culture of medicine, where when you are sick you "owe" someone else a shift (what other job works that way?!?) and where you're never supposed to be sick at all. We'd expect more from actual doctors - people who in theory are supposed to take care of sick people - to understand. Because disease can happen to anyone.

At my institution, there's a PGY2 surgery resident who had appendicitis. Didn't go in to get it checked out (cuz, you know, he's too macho - or terrified - for that and because his ***** colleagues and attendings would surely chew him out for taking 4 hours out of his day to have his acute abdomen assessed in the ED). As a result, his appendix ruptured and he had to take 2 weeks off for recovery and will need to get an interval appendectomy down the line.

It's poor form when a surgical program has residents with ruptured appendicitis. Just saying.
 
I was wondering if you guys want to take your vacation, is there a restriction on when you can take it? Are some months off limits for leave?

Also, if you want to take a week of vacation, do you have to make sure that you have an upper level who can cover for you during that week?

It's not like other jobs. You don't get vacation days that you decide when to use. You will be assigned vacation weeks before the year starts- usually there are certain rotations that allow vacations, or a similar setup.
 
It's not like other jobs. You don't get vacation days that you decide when to use. You will be assigned vacation weeks before the year starts- usually there are certain rotations that allow vacations, or a similar setup.
Very field dependent.

In some specialties, some months like ICU are vacation ineligible.

In other fields, it's vacation whenever you want it.
 
I was wondering if you guys want to take your vacation, is there a restriction on when you can take it? Are some months off limits for leave?
Not just specialty dependent, but highly program dependent. I know of (IM, FM) programs that simply assign you random weeks before you start and I know of other programs where you submit preferences before the beginning of the year and >90% of people get their top choices (the exception is inevitably when 10 people all ask for the week of Christmas off). The other variance is whether you get the weekend before/after your vacation off... 5 vs 7 vs 9 days makes for very different "weeks". My program for example regularly gives us the full 9 without issue, but the surgery program at our institution would give 7... and may then only give 2 days off that month otherwise (because the "other" 2 days off are that weekend bracketing the vacation).

The question of what rotations you can take rotation during is one that is also highly program specific. As a medicine resident, I'm forbidden from taking vacation during any of our inpatient ward or ICU months... but an EM intern on our ICU service is capable of taking vacation because per their department it's an off service month and hence not as important as their other months. It's a huge PITA for me having interns swapped in and out, but hey, who am I to criticize? (Note: That just means my inpatient rotations are scheduled around my vacations if I put in the vacation requests early enough as opposed to the opposite. There's enough of us that it isn't a big deal)

Also, if you want to take a week of vacation, do you have to make sure that you have an upper level who can cover for you during that week?
Your program should make that arrangement. The only exception is if you start moving your vacation around, you may have to make sure that the new vacation week is covered. Some programs have no mechanism to move vacation at all, you just go when you're assigned.
 
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In other fields, it's vacation whenever you want it.

I've yet to come across a residency where "whenever you want it" means "Hey, I think I'll use some of my PTO next week" like it does in other jobs. Not saying it doesn't exist, but it would have to be exceedingly rare because of the coverage issues.
 
The question of what rotations you can take rotation during is one that is also highly program specific. As a medicine resident, I'm forbidden from taking vacation during any of our inpatient ward or ICU months... but an EM intern on our ICU service is capable of taking vacation because per their department it's an off service month and hence not as important as their other months. It's a huge PITA for me having interns swapped in and out, but hey, who am I to criticize? (Note: That just means my inpatient rotations are scheduled around my vacations if I put in the vacation requests early enough as opposed to the opposite. There's enough of us that it isn't a big deal)

Interesting. In residency we could only take vacation during our on-service (EM) months. A fair number of 3 yr programs are going to be very near the ACGME requirements in terms of mandatory off-service rotations. I guess your institute's EM program must be well-above on ICU time if they'll let an intern take 2 weeks off on a MICU rotation. Still seems like it's bad policy from a "being collaborative with your consultants" standpoint.
 
I've yet to come across a residency where "whenever you want it" means "Hey, I think I'll use some of my PTO next week" like it does in other jobs. Not saying it doesn't exist, but it would have to be exceedingly rare because of the coverage issues.
Many radiology programs have that flexibility as there is built in redundancy of the attending just reading studies on their own. Really just depends on the laziness of staff in academia relative to their PP counterparts.
 
Interesting. In residency we could only take vacation during our on-service (EM) months. A fair number of 3 yr programs are going to be very near the ACGME requirements in terms of mandatory off-service rotations. I guess your institute's EM program must be well-above on ICU time if they'll let an intern take 2 weeks off on a MICU rotation. Still seems like it's bad policy from a "being collaborative with your consultants" standpoint.
Our EM program is four years so I think they have plenty of leeway. It sucks more for our IM prelims who we force to cover the extra ICU time if we're down an intern.
 
I was wondering if you guys want to take your vacation, is there a restriction on when you can take it? Are some months off limits for leave?

Also, if you want to take a week of vacation, do you have to make sure that you have an upper level who can cover for you during that week?

Your program will let you exactly what's what with your days off and vacation. You do not need to find an upper to cover for you. That would happen it let's say unofficially you needed to get out early that day for an appointment or something, the senior might cover some of your work. Don't do this lightly, pay things back, and assume that there is not a single moment that belongs to you when you start residency. See what the system is there and what people do, especially things that may not be addressed on the books.

Most programs have rotations where vacations cannot be scheduled. If that's the case, they will be sure vacation is not scheduled at that time. Some places solicit your preferences per their rules and may work that in, others assume they own you (they do) and will just hand you schedule and that's it.

I don't know how sick days play into your 4 per month. I *do* know that sick time like FMLA leave and whatnot, longer stretches, *cannot* replace your paid vacation time. So let's say you get 4 weeks a year paid time off and are ill and get approved to have 3 weeks off for illness, this does not take away you getting the 4 weeks true vacation in addition. However, the pay that went for your paid vacation can go to you on your sick weeks depending on individual program structure around that vacation pay versus sick leave pay, sometimes you'll get your vacation pay and when that runs out then the rest of your sick leave is unpaid, in which case later you still get the vacation but maybe unpaid, and you cannot say "no, rather work that vacation week and get paid." If between this sick leave and mandatory vacation time, you miss too many weeks that year, you will not graduate on time and will have to make up the sick time, but working vacation time to make it up that year is not an option. Also, sick leave may have to change the timing of your vacation weeks because of coverage stuff. They could pull someone from their vacation to cover your sick time, in which case later you may work what was supposed to be your vacation while they take theirs. But everyone gets their vacation despite any sick time that happens. ACGME demands you get the promised vacation time, but when is up to negotiation.
If you followed what I said at all about timing of vacation and peopled getting pulled and what not, you can see it's a scheduling f8ckshow, so you really need to be so laid up that it is literally impossible for you to will yourself to work.
Often ACGME for your specialty demands you complete a certain number of certain rotations, but then there is some wiggle room as far as elective time.
For example, a program may have you do 4 ICU months the first year when ACGME would have allowed 3. Once the program has met the minimum required ACGME rules on rotations, the program has wiggle room on electives. So, let's say you were supposed to do 4 months wards, but were sick one ward month. Now, you may have to do that ward month during what was supposed to be your elective, because the elective could be cut but not the ward month. Again, your vacation time cannot be taken, but it can be moved, and they can take away elective. In fact, because vacation can't be used, often elective months are sacrificed not only by you, but by who covered you (they still have to have their vacation and core rotations months despite covering your sick ass). So when one person is out for a while, the price is paid not only by you but by others of elective time, which is also having to sacrifice weekends. You may be condemning a number of fellow residents to 6 day work weeks and NO weekends on the only 3 months of elective time they would had weekends on. This is really significant. They will hate this. If they truly believe you are that ill, while they will be miserable, they may take pity and not shank you the next time you're asleep in the call room. (also my example where the program had programmed you to do 4 ICU month when 3 would suffice for ACGME requirements, it's up in the air and depends on bodies and what not, if you are sick this month perhaps that's all there is to it, however, often if they are designing the program for you to spend more time than required by ACGME, then it is because they want/need residents to cover that month, therefor typically someone is getting stuck with it period. This could suck really bad.) So ladies, do NOT get pregnant during residency because it can turn into a f8ckshow for everyone, be prepared to have an abortion, your fellow residents and PD will be so grateful. (that is a totally sick joke, and I make it to highlight something disturbing about training)

I'm sorry, none of this has to do with individual single sick days. Those will still blow for everyone involved but more manageable than a stretch of time. Hopefully the above gives you some insight into scheduling stuff and how people get pulled/called in. Someone else's life will generally suck more because you're not there.

Ah yes, the toxic culture of medicine, where when you are sick you "owe" someone else a shift (what other job works that way?!?) and where you're never supposed to be sick at all. We'd expect more from actual doctors - people who in theory are supposed to take care of sick people - to understand. Because disease can happen to anyone.

At my institution, there's a PGY2 surgery resident who had appendicitis. Didn't go in to get it checked out (cuz, you know, he's too macho - or terrified - for that and because his ***** colleagues and attendings would surely chew him out for taking 4 hours out of his day to have his acute abdomen assessed in the ED). As a result, his appendix ruptured and he had to take 2 weeks off for recovery and will need to get an interval appendectomy down the line.

It's poor form when a surgical program has residents with ruptured appendicitis. Just saying.

Plenty of other jobs would expect you to "pay back" a shift covered for you. That is not unusual or what I take issue of in medicine.

What is ridic and toxic is the notion of never being sick and doctors not caring for each other. I agree the surgical resident story you share is very poor form.

I think there are doctors who would like to be more understanding of colleague illness and have more support for them, but the system (as I described above) is hard-pressed to accommodate it, so good intentions go by the wayside

and then there are doctors that are into sadomasochism and like the culture being that way, hazing and punishing human weakness, only the physically fittest should care for the sick (?)

a change in culture will not be enough to make up for lacking resources, however, a change in culture may facilitate a change in resources, and would need to be addressed if the culture is what is preventing change/use of resources

EDIT:
what I said about the relationship between sick time not replacing your vacation time is true for IM, and is not set by ACGME but the individual specialty boards, you need to read both what your specialty boards sets forth as rules and your individual residency program contract
 
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