DBH at ASU

This forum made possible through the generous support of SDN members, donors, and sponsors. Thank you.
My family members who are Veteran do not use the VA and they do not feel their medical needs are competently addressed so they pay for their private insurance and see their own physicians. VA needs to give all veteran an insurance card such as Medicare Card so they have choices. Sadly said.. It is a broken system beyond repair and needs to be cremated and reborn.

Members don't see this ad.
 
My family members who are Veteran do not use the VA and they do not feel their medical needs are competently addressed so they pay for their private insurance and see their own physicians. VA needs to give all veteran an insurance card such as Medicare Card so they have choices. Sadly said.. It is a broken system beyond repair and needs to be cremated and reborn.

It's likely to differ from VA to VA, just as healthcare experiences in general differ from one hospital (or even one clinic) to the next, even within the same hospital system.

I know folks who've sworn off the VA, and I know just as many folks who swear by it. Our Veterans here love us, although that's obviously a restricted sample, as I only see the people who choose to come in.

I would agree with the idea that significant improvements could be made, but would disagree that the system is "beyond repair." I've worked in a variety of private hospitals as well, and while they have their advantages, there are things I've seen done better by the VA.
 
Members don't see this ad :)
My My... What more data is needed than actual alive persons verbalizations and actions. Realistically... Would you go to the VA if you had other options available?
 
If you want to get empirical and examine the effectiveness of the 'Choice' program in satisfying veteran's healthcare needs then I invite you to survey (ask) a few veterans about what their experience has been with it.

One of the biggest issues with the VA and its public image is that the negatives are always published and covered in detail in the media but the positives go largely unappreciated. The folks we provide good mental health treatment to (for example, a recent veteran with PTSD who just completed cognitive processing therapy with me and who was able to see how his symptom scores were reduced to about 20-30% of their original severity since starting treatment, his expanded social network (that he attributes to the therapy) going from zero friends/buddies to about 4-5 buddies that he socializes regularly with, and the improvement in the trajectory that his marital relationship (things are going much better now)...these never make it to the media because the folks who are truly suffering from PTSD just want to get help, get better, and be left alone to live their lives (they're not the ones, generally, who are going to be front and center in the media).

I apologize for the negative tone of my rant in a prior post...I actually love the central mission of my job (applying psychological science (with a good dose of human fallibility and sincere desire to connect with others who are suffering) to address psychological problems). I am grateful for the VA for providing me an opportunity to do this on a regular basis and job security so I can focus on my central mission as a provider. Of course I (and other providers) get frustrated at times when we reflect on how much better a job we could do (and how the job could be even better) if, basically, the administrators/bureaucrats would just get out of the way and let us do what we do. Alternatively, if they are truly interested in my work ethic with respect to my caseload, then they can interview me on the spot at any time and I will gladly share my case formulation, diagnostics, rationale for current interventions, etc. But they aren't interested in that, they want to count magic beans. :)
I find the honesty in your comments about what the VA is interested in refreshing - but sadly rare. Good people cannot do a full and complete job when serving the masters of numerical economics. While many excellent people with outstanding skills work for the VA - the system impedes the lion's share of their productivity and quality. The magic beans you mentioned are very important to powerful people in leadership positions at the VA. As we know, the scope of mental health needs and services are not driven by the VA policies or much influenced by it. The VA is a closed system to many people and many communities and quite frankly, they don't think much about it. It is not they don't care, they just don't think about it because it is not a part of their life. The mental health profession has changed massively in terms of providers and networks over the past 25 years an it is getting more diverse each year through the process of sanctioned licensing of various types and that is driving additional degrees and credentials into the marketplace. Who ever thought Licensed Professional Counselors would be a force existing mental health providers would need to recon with 20 years ago. When I entered healthcare those people were not licensed to do anything, now they are licensed in about every state. Need data? Look at the Psychology Today website for "therapists". Look at the training of those listed. It is very revealing. Most of those people who would not have been employable (i.e. reimbursable) 25 years ago because their sanctioned licenses did not exist and their practice boundaries were much narrower. Now through years of new "regulations", the differences in mental health providers has largely disappeared in the minds of the public. Simply put,there is excellent training (and some crap training), throughout the professional preparation system, but innovation should not be something any of us should fear. The model of new forms of professional development may have been launched or illustrated by the introduction of the Psy.D degree, but considering its rise in popularity and influence, I do not feel such degree development will be the last. The Psy.D degree fills a need in something or somebody and my opinion what that is is not very powerful or relevant. The marketplace makes those calculations. The last chapter is not written on the functionality or utility of the DBH degree or its holders, that largely rests with THEM. People seeking those degrees are adults and I for one am not in a position to be their guardian or worse, their guidance counselor. They have an opportunity to prove themselves and that is okay for me. They spend their money at their own peril - just like the rest of the world in almost every aspect of employment and its intersection with economics. They (DBH'ers) are licensed mental health providers anyway and the additional training in integrated care is yet to be fully realized in the primary care system. They (the DBH holders) have their work cut out for them without my criticism or comment. Whatever happens will be a change in how the system works - noting I am not the systems guardian either. Change is sometimes difficult to understand, even resented or feared. That fear and resentment is a reflection of the shadow of change all of us see in the mirror - as it places doubt in our own minds about our own decisions. I am not sure that is all bad. The DBH is not the boogie man no matter how much anyone want it to be.
 
What more data is needed than an n of a handful? I'll take clinical outcome data. If you want I can throw you a few dozen citations to pore over to actually educate yourself. And yes, for certain services, I definitely would.
 
The DBH is not the boogie man no matter how much anyone want it to be.

Nobody is paying more money because you have a DBH! It does not generate any more revenue or billing power over the licensed degree! 6 figure debt and a masters level salary is likely a "boogie man" for those poor students, right?
 
Last edited:
The last chapter is not written on the functionality or utility of the DBH degree or its holders, that largely rests with THEM. People seeking those degrees are adults and I for one am not in a position to be their guardian or worse, their guidance counselor. They have an opportunity to prove themselves and that is okay for me. They spend their money at their own peril - just like the rest of the world in almost every aspect of employment and its intersection with economics. They (DBH'ers) are licensed mental health providers anyway and the additional training in integrated care is yet to be fully realized in the primary care system. They (the DBH holders) have their work cut out for them without my criticism or comment. Whatever happens will be a change in how the system works - noting I am not the systems guardian either. Change is sometimes difficult to understand, even resented or feared. That fear and resentment is a reflection of the shadow of change all of us see in the mirror - as it places doubt in our own minds about our own decisions. I am not sure that is all bad. The DBH is not the boogie man no matter how much anyone want it to be.

I though you said that it had already proved its value earlier? And, if wanting to see some data before I would advise a student or colleague to drop tens of thousands of dollars for what on the surface looks like a sham is a sign of fear or resentment, well I guess I'm fearful and resentful. Verbosity is a poor substitute for lack of data and justification.
 
"They spend their money at their own peril." That sums it all up for me. This type of predatory practice makes me pretty angry. I have been the supervisor and mentor of many MA level people. Many of them would like to become a psychologist but don't for a variety of reasons. This school identifies some of those obstacles, removes them, and makes it seem like they are providing the equivalent and then foist off their success or failure as being on them. As a psychologist, I have the support of my colleagues and the APA (although I criticize them at times) and finally and perhaps most importantly I have the title and license of being a psychologist. Your graduates have nothing more than the license they came in with.
:annoyed:
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 user
I suggest you ask the graduates if they feel duped by the program...

Us graduates of traditional, APA approved clinical training programs were required to take a course in social psychology (I know- pretty myopic and "non-integrated" right;)). Somewhere in the first few weeks of that course, we would've been exposed to Festinger's work, as well as that of those who followed him (most of us actually probably were exposed to cognitive dissonance theory and research as undergraduates). As a a result, we know that the answers we would get as a result of "asking the graduates" how they feel would likely be biased, and thus more objective data is necessary to support the costs of a DBH degree.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 2 users
Us graduates of traditional, APA approved clinical training programs were required to take a course in social psychology (I know- pretty myopic and "non-integrated" right;)). Somewhere in the first few weeks of that course, we would've been exposed to Festinger's work, as well as that of those who followed him (most of us actually probably were exposed to cognitive dissonance theory and research as undergraduates). As a a result, we know that the answers we would get as a result of "asking the graduates" how they feel would likely be biased, and thus more objective data is necessary to support the costs of a DBH degree.

Hey, doofus, training in basic psychological science is not needed in order to effectively diagnose and treat behavioral or psychological disturbances in primary care because it such a unique setting where none of the other rules apply (do the vastly shifting healthcare system) , didn't you get the memo? ;)
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: 1 users
Hey doofus, training in basic psychological science is not needed in order to effectively diagnose and treat behavioral or psychological disturbances in primary care because it such a unique setting where none of the other rules apply do the vastly shifting healthcare system , didn't you get the memo? ;)
Sorry. I'll get back to calculating ANOVAS by hand and treating the symptoms but not the person, just like I was trained.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 users
Members don't see this ad :)
Good people cannot do a full and complete job when serving the masters of numerical economics.

This is actually one reason why the VA works better than private insurance/providers in many instances, there are less hoops between the pt and actual rendering of care. There can be a wait in some instances and sometimes a drive to get services, but the service actually happens. In the private insurance world so many people are shut out up front that it is a battle of attrition.

Now through years of new "regulations", the differences in mental health providers has largely disappeared in the minds of the public.

Citation?

If anything, I'd posit the public is MORE aware of training differences because the healthcare system have forced them to jump through more hoops to receive care.

...innovation should not be something any of us should fear.

Innovation is great. Throwing a bunch of classes together, calling it a degree, and then trying to manufacture a demand is not innovative….it is predatory.

People seeking those degrees are adults and I for one am not in a position to be their guardian or worse, their guidance counselor. They have an opportunity to prove themselves and that is okay for me.

I'm in complete agreement that as an adult a person should be able to make their own decisions. The caveat is that the information should be presented to them accurately and without bias. I don't think that is happening with this "new" and (many would argue worthless) degree.

They spend their money at their own peril - just like the rest of the world in almost every aspect of employment and its intersection with economics.

Do you know who uses this argument….people who go out of their way to prey on people who don't know what they don't know. The sales guy who sells an elderly couple an overpriced insurance plan. The mortgage lender who targets fringe customers to get the commission while knowing they have no feasible way to afford the variable %-rate when it changes in 3-5yrs. The "counselor" aka sales woman who is pitching a 'for profit' education to a first generation learner who doesn't know that those "schools" are a ripoff. All of these instances are predatory, which is how I view the DBH.

The degree doesn't lead to a higher licensure or even a real certification or similar, yet it costs $95k.

$15,710 (9 credit hours) x 6 semesters (54 total credit hours) = $94,260 + tuition increases + living expenses, etc.

Whatever happens will be a change in how the system works - noting I am not the systems guardian either. Change is sometimes difficult to understand, even resented or feared. That fear and resentment is a reflection of the shadow of change all of us see in the mirror - as it places doubt in our own minds about our own decisions. I am not sure that is all bad. The DBH is not the boogie man no matter how much anyone want it to be.

That is just psychobabble nonsense.

An actual training program would have facts and research to support it, not colorful language that doesn't mean diddly squat at the end of the day. If someone is going to spend $95,000+ I'd hope that they had a good reason and not just to be called, "Doctor"…and still be restricted to billing as a mid-level.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 user
Geez, your department is so behind the times. Don't you have punchcards you can use to run those ANOVA's?

Yeah, but the stupid professors thought it would be good for us to know what goes into those fancy numbers so that, as both clinicians and scientists, we would be better consumers, if not producers, of research. Can you believe that! Plus, the guy with the punch cards in the basement of the UNIX server building smelled kinda funny.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 user
My My... What more data is needed than actual alive persons verbalizations and actions. Realistically... Would you go to the VA if you had other options available?

It's not necessarily an either/or question. A lot of older veterans use both the VA and Medicare for various needs. There is, in fact, an entire literature on these "dual users," the findings of which may surprise you. See, for instance: http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/1475-6773.12303/full
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 user
It's not necessarily an either/or question. A lot of older veterans use both the VA and Medicare for various needs. There is, in fact, an entire literature on these "dual users," the findings of which may surprise you. See, for instance: http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/1475-6773.12303/full

I think OND has made it very clear that he is not a fan of empirical data on these forums. Do you have any anecdotes or media narratives you can cite instead?
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 users
Change is sometimes difficult to understand, even resented or feared. That fear and resentment is a reflection of the shadow of change all of us see in the mirror - as it places doubt in our own minds about our own decisions.

 
My My... What more data is needed than actual alive persons verbalizations and actions. Realistically... Would you go to the VA if you had other options available?

My family member has other options available and still uses the VA. He's had no longer wait time than to get in to a regular specialist and is impressed with the case management services.

So are we dueling banjos now or what? Anecdote vs. anecdote. That's why data is important.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 2 users
Nobody is paying more money because you have a DBH! It does not generate any more revenue or billing power over the licensed degree! 6 figure debt and a masters level salary is likely a "boogie man" for those poor students, right?

I think it is very sad to think that the exclusive reason to get advanced training, or a degree, is to "generate revenue or billing power". I simply do not see salary or revenues as a single or primary motivation to get a DBH, MBA, or any other degree that is tracked or bonded a state healthcare license or even a national "certification". The jobs and specialties within behavioral health are far beyond that narrow scope. That is evidenced by the fact that upper management and administration (perhaps GS 13 and above), require more academic content and experience than clinical skill taught in a doctoral program in psychology. Writing computer codes pays more than being a psychologist with the VA or in "private practice" - yet the training to code is much less time consuming, costly and does not require a state licensure exam. If the motivation for learning (and getting a degree, certificate or license) is purely financial (to self or the system in which the person works), then becoming a licensed clinical psychologist does not hold up to logic. Frankly, my plumber makes more per hour and has a steady supply of customers. I looked at the DBH website and they say nothing about making more money with the degree and promise nothing. That does not seem predatory to me.
 
I believe the issue is incremental added value. The degree does not allow for any greater level of licensure, and at a glance seems to be things that people naturally learn as they work in the healthcare system as is. And, I think that they definitely are preying on on idea that this will lead to an insta-promotion for those students who go through this thing. As evidenced by the testimonial "I am happy about my advancement. I will be getting a big raise and a promotion and be in charge of a multi–centered behavioral health unit.”

So yes, people are allowed to do with their time and money what they will. But, as advisors and supervisors, we are obligated to advise our students in their best interests. And, I imagine most of us would advise against 6 figure debt for a degree that we see as meaningless in content and outcomes above and beyond the training they already have.
 
I think it is very sad to think that the exclusive reason to get advanced training, or a degree, is to "generate revenue or billing power". I simply do not see salary or revenues as a single or primary motivation to get a DBH.

Yea. You dont. Bet LCSWs with a 40k salary and 150k debt feel differently...

So, lets get this straight. No more money/earnings. Much more debt. No unique scholarly or clinical skills training. And a degree that nobody has ever heard of...to fill a service shortage/gap that doesn't exist. All this, you find to be a "good" thing?

Being in healthcare I would assume you are familiar with ROI and the principle of "diminishing returns" when it comes to monetary expenditure. Clinical scientists may call this incremental validity...or the lack there of, right?

Ill leave you with this. I am a primary care doctor/HR manager/insert hiring official title here. K. I dont know what the **** a DBH is or even means? I dont really care to about the specifics. Please provide me with some quick reference data on why I need to/should hire a DBH degree holder vs others? If you struggle with this question, the graduates are being duped. Plain and simple.
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: 1 users
Yea. You dont. Bet LCSWs with a 40k salary and 150k debt feel differently...

So, lets get this straight. No more money/earnings. Much more debt. No unique scholarly or clinical skills training. And a degree that nobody has ever heard of...to fill a service shortage/gap that doesn't exist. All this, you find to be a "good" thing?

Being in healthcare I would assume you are familiar with ROI and the principle of "diminishing returns" when it comes to monetary expenditure. Clinical scientists may call this incremental validity...or the lack there of, right? If you struggle with this question, the graduates are being duped. Plain and simple.

Ill leave you with this. I am a primary care doctor/HR manager/insert hiring official title here. K. I dont know what the **** a DBH is or even means? I dont really care to about the specifics. Please provide me with some quick reference data on why I need to/should hire a DBH degree holder vs others?
This is all I hear in response...
200.gif
 
Yea. You dont. Bet LCSWs with a 40k salary and 150k debt feel differently...

So, lets get this straight. No more money/earnings. Much more debt. No unique scholarly or clinical skills training. And a degree that nobody has ever heard of...to fill a service shortage/gap that doesn't exist. All this, you find to be a "good" thing?

Being in healthcare I would assume you are familiar with ROI and the principle of "diminishing returns" when it comes to monetary expenditure. Clinical scientists may call this incremental validity...or the lack there of, right?

Ill leave you with this. I am a primary care doctor/HR manager/insert hiring official title here. K. I dont know what the **** a DBH is or even means? I dont really care to about the specifics. Please provide me with some quick reference data on why I need to/should hire a DBH degree holder vs others? If you struggle with this question, the graduates are being duped. Plain and simple.

I agreed with you; "duped" is correct. I am a first generation graduated from ASU from the DBH program created by Dr. Nicholas Cummings. He is the founder of this program and former president of the American Psychological Association. I am extremely disappointed with the outcome of the program. We were advised that upon graduation we may be able to be license as doctors by APA. I graduated on 2010 and nothing happened. I have a huge debt of student loans. Dr. Cummings advised us in many occasions that we were going to be able to work in primary care a "physicians." Many not truthful promises were made. I guess he sold his product and ASU allowed him to do so. At this point I would like to find those who graduate on 2010 from ASU from the DBH program and do something about it. I am sure we can accomplish something as the program was founded on a bunch of false promises.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 user
I agreed with you; "duped" is correct. I am a first generation graduated from ASU from the DBH program created by Dr. Nicholas Cummings. He is the founder of this program and former president of the American Psychological Association. I am extremely disappointed with the outcome of the program. We were advised that upon graduation we may be able to be license as doctors by APA. I graduated on 2010 and nothing happened. I have a huge debt of student loans. Dr. Cummings advised us in many occasions that we were going to be able to work in primary care a "physicians." Many not truthful promises were made. I guess he sold his product and ASU allowed him to do so. At this point I would like to find those who graduate on 2010 from ASU from the DBH program and do something about it. I am sure we can accomplish something as the program was founded on a bunch of false promises.

I'm am sorry and empathize to a degree, however:

1. Psychologists are not "physicians", not even on paper for billing purposes, much less able to use that title in any other setting or scenario.

2. There is no licensing of "doctors." Its by profession (MD/DO; psycholgist, etc), and of course premised on your training/training program meeting the criteria of said licensing board. Easily searchable.

Can I ask how in the world no one no one was able to uncover these relatively basic and easily searchable facts while in the program. Much less, before enrolling and forking over tens of thousands of dollars?
 
Last edited:
I enrolled in the DBH program and am horrifically disappointed and left. I have a strong interest in integrated care and fully understood the program was more of a "elevated" MSW or similar.

With that said, the deal breaker was their absolute zero support for internships which is a requirement. We must find our own internship. No tools or help provided whatsoever. Beyond that, the classes and professors are abysmal.
 
What kind of job were you expecting to get after earning this degree?
 
Top