De-Clawing

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Yeah, I've seen a couple docks and dew claws and they don't seem to cry and protest for more than a few minutes. I'd still probably feel a bit better with some local anesthesia though. Kinda like male circumcision on infants. Uh oh, did I just open that can of worms?! 😱😀
 
Eh, I treat my dog like my child anyway. 😀
 
Here's a potentially dumb question that I have always wondered that hasn't directly come up in schooling yet...I realize that doing general anesthesia on a 2-3 day old puppy for a tail dock or dew claw is not a good idea. Can you do any sort of local anesthesia instead?

My lambs were always docked and I was/am under the impression that no pain meds were used... they just dock away... the same way they castrate them, incidentally... well, if I'm not mistaken...
 
Yes; epidurals and ring blocks. Run a search on VIN and you'll find several discussions.

Such a PITA, cardiac output being heart rate dependent in the neonate and all... 😉
 
There is a declaw debate going on over at the vet tech community on LJ.

Someone mentioned this as an alternative and there is a debate going on over this as well:

When I fostered with a rescue group a few years ago they would not allow the kitten to go to a home that would declaw. If the people wanted to declaw they would suggest a different procedure where the tendons were cut instead. This was their idea of a more humane solution. But of course the claws still grew and needed trimming only the cat could not extend the claws.

Thoughts?

http://community.livejournal.com/vet_tech/
 
There is a declaw debate going on over at the vet tech community on LJ.

Someone mentioned this as an alternative and there is a debate going on over this as well:



Thoughts?

http://community.livejournal.com/vet_tech/

in that same talk, the vet discussed this "humane" method. We were told that the AVMA no longer supports it and that studies have shown it is less so (though I can't remember the actual reason but I believe it was that the claws would continue to grow but not be extended and thus cause problems - pain and infection).

http://www.avma.org/onlnews/javma/apr03/030415c.asp

mentions in there somewhere about the tendonectomy.

A site that describes the options for declawing:
http://www.marvistavet.com/html/body_declawing_and_its_alternatives.html
 
Here's a potentially dumb question that I have always wondered that hasn't directly come up in schooling yet...I realize that doing general anesthesia on a 2-3 day old puppy for a tail dock or dew claw is not a good idea. Can you do any sort of local anesthesia instead?

I've been reading about pain in neonates and discovered that up until the 1970s, it was accepted practice to give neonates in need of surgery immobilizing drugs only, no anesthetic. It was a commonly held belief that the infants' pain sensory system (I'm sure there's a more techincal term that I'm missing) wasn't well developed enough to feel the pain. Then a doc specializing in neonatal care started seeing these infants coming back from surgery grey and in very obvious distress. So I think he began the changes in accepted practice. Anyway, there is a really interesting article published in 1987 that debunks the idea that neonates feel little or no pain:
http://www.cirp.org/library/pain/anand/
And here's another interesting link: http://www.avma.org/onlnews/javma/dec01/s121501j.asp

From the conclusions:
"Numerous lines of evidence suggest that even in the human fetus, pain pathways as well as cortical and subcortical centers necessary for pain perception are well developed late in gestation, and the neurochemical systems now known to be associated with pain transmission and modulation are intact and functional. Physiologic responses to painful stimuli have been well documented in neonates of various gestational ages and are reflected in hormonal, metabolic, and cardiorespiratory changes similar to but greater than those observed in adult subjects. Other responses in newborn infants are suggestive of integrated emotional and behavioral responses to pain and are retained in memory long enough to modify subsequent behavior patterns."

"...current knowledge suggests that humane considerations should apply as forcefully to the care of neonates and young, nonverbal infants as they do to children and adults in similar painful and stressful situations."

It is my understanding that this revolutionized neonatal anesthesia and now there is discussion about fetal pain. (I don't want to open that can of worms...it's a slippery slope to the choice/life debate, just thought I'd mention that.)

I, personally, don't think the argument should hold for any complex animal (dogs, cats) that they don't feel the pain and it has no impact so it's ok to do tail dockings etc. without anesthetic. I've only seen a few done, as well as some pig castrations, but I think this practice is seriously in need of re-evaluation.

Not that I am necessarily against these procedures at all (it just depends), but I think that in order to do them humanely, anesthetic should always need to be incorporated. What I'm unsure about is how that could be incorporated into production animal medicine...how do you castrate hundreds of pigs efficiently if you need to give some anesthetic to all? Still, I think vets need to seriously consider this.
 
I've been coming across all of this declaw information not on purpose...

I had to help with dewclaw removal on several four-day old puppies. I asked the vet why they didn't numb it or anything and he said that numbing it can be as painful as the removal? It sounds kind of stupid to me...

It really bothered me, hearing the puppies scream and have them squirm around in my hand. On my first puppy, on one of his incisions, one stitch wasn't doing it. The puppy was bleeding over my hand and the doc had to go back and put a second stitch in.

Dewclaw removal I can see as beneficial... I can't remember what breed of dog these were, but they were breed specifically for hunting. I just wished there was more they could do about the pain. Doc said that they should have been removed as soon as they were born... it would have been easier to do and less painful on the pups.
 
Doc said that they should have been removed as soon as they were born... it would have been easier to do and less painful on the pups.

Doesn't anyone else question this??
 
I've been coming across all of this declaw information not on purpose...

I had to help with dewclaw removal on several four-day old puppies. I asked the vet why they didn't numb it or anything and he said that numbing it can be as painful as the removal? It sounds kind of stupid to me...

It really bothered me, hearing the puppies scream and have them squirm around in my hand. On my first puppy, on one of his incisions, one stitch wasn't doing it. The puppy was bleeding over my hand and the doc had to go back and put a second stitch in.

Dewclaw removal I can see as beneficial... I can't remember what breed of dog these were, but they were breed specifically for hunting. I just wished there was more they could do about the pain. Doc said that they should have been removed as soon as they were born... it would have been easier to do and less painful on the pups.

Dewclaws can be torn or injured, yes. I have sporting dogs and I have done hunt tests. I disagree that removing them is beneficial. It's silly to remove things just because they COULD get injured. Dogs use their dewclaws. If they do get injured, it's not as though it's life-threatening. I wish breeders would leave them on, but most people who show in breed remove them because it makes the dog's leg look cleaner (really, it's not for safety, it's for cosmetics).

BTW, I put Soft Paws on my own cats for the first time yesterday. The instructions say it's normal for them to try to remove/succeed in removing them at first. My obnoxious male cat 🙂)) removed 3, which I replaced. My female cat has not removed any of them. They don't seem to notice them in general and do not look distressed. I found them easy to put on (maybe it's because I *trained* my cats to let me handle their feet???). Another bonus: they look cute/hilarious. I was nice to my (black) male cat and got him black ones, but the female's are hot pink. 🙂
 
I've been coming across all of this declaw information not on purpose...

I had to help with dewclaw removal on several four-day old puppies. I asked the vet why they didn't numb it or anything and he said that numbing it can be as painful as the removal? It sounds kind of stupid to me...

It really bothered me, hearing the puppies scream and have them squirm around in my hand. On my first puppy, on one of his incisions, one stitch wasn't doing it. The puppy was bleeding over my hand and the doc had to go back and put a second stitch in.

Dewclaw removal I can see as beneficial... I can't remember what breed of dog these were, but they were breed specifically for hunting. I just wished there was more they could do about the pain. Doc said that they should have been removed as soon as they were born... it would have been easier to do and less painful on the pups.

Are you talking about dew claw removal? Usually where I've worked, we do them with the spay/neuter, so they are under general anesthesia. As far as pain with nerve blocks, have you ever had one other than for a filling? It does hurt more afterwards, so I'm kind of torn on doing them. I, personally, have had several nerve blocks, root blocks, and facet blocks. It does hurt, sometimes a lot more than it did before, afterwards. One time I had one done on my shoulder, and I hurt so bad, I couldn't drive home from the doctor. I had to pull over into a parking lot and wait about a half hour until the pain had gone down enough to drive. That being said when comparing, a longer term local block, like lidocaine, with a shorter term block, like marcaine, the former hurts less. But either way, I'm not sure I'd do a block on a simple procedure, like removing front dewclaws (rear is a different story), unless the owners were willing to go home on something more than an NSAID for a day or two. If they were staying in the hospital and I could use morphine, buprenex, or something like that, I would be more likely to consider a block. Does this make sense?
 
pressmom--Rear dewclaws are more likely to be hanging by a flap of skin than front dewclaws. The rears are truly vestigial, while the fronts are not. Why would you say front removal is simpler than rear?
 
pressmom--Rear dewclaws are more likely to be hanging by a flap of skin than front dewclaws. The rears are truly vestigial, while the fronts are not. Why would you say front removal is simpler than rear?

You're 100% right. I got it reversed in my head. It's been almost a year now since I worked in a hospital and I try to picture things in my head and I get it backwards!!! Thanks for correcting me! 🙂
 
You're 100% right. I got it reversed in my head. It's been almost a year now since I worked in a hospital and I try to picture things in my head and I get it backwards!!! Thanks for correcting me! 🙂

🙂 I didn't even consider that you just reversed them in your head...I thought maybe you actually thought the rear ones were used for something. My bad, too. 😉
 
Not that I am necessarily against these procedures at all (it just depends), but I think that in order to do them humanely, anesthetic should always need to be incorporated. What I'm unsure about is how that could be incorporated into production animal medicine...how do you castrate hundreds of pigs efficiently if you need to give some anesthetic to all? Still, I think vets need to seriously consider this.

In grad school (as I mentioned on another thread), we tried running a pilot study ovexing inch long day old female mouse pups with sharp watchmaker's forceps and liquid bandage. We used a bit of isoflo in a jar to knock them down. Cold anesthetic for mouse pups is also acceptable as they have little ability at at age to thermoregulate. On some days, I would do 25-30 ovariectomies on adult female mice in a few hours by myself. On others, I would do hormone capsule implantations on male and female mice, which also required anesthetic, and I could do 40-50 in a few hours by myself. If we could do that for mice, surely they can do the same for piglets.

As an aside on the dew claws, my Malinois/German shepherd cross actually has double rear dew claws, which is odd as neither of those breeds should have them (though they pop up every once in a while). I call them his velociraptor talons. 😀 No tears yet, knock on wood. One of the four is loose and the rest are connected. In certain breeds with double dew claws, like the continental European herding and livestock guardian breeds (Great Pyrenees, Beauceron, Briards, etc), I've seen some sites say that they serve a useful purpose to climb on the sheep or something? 😕 Might just be a "just so" story, so who knows...
 
That being said when comparing, a longer term local block, like lidocaine, with a shorter term block, like marcaine, the former hurts less.

Bupivicaine (marcaine) lasts much longer than lidocaine.

I always use local anesthesia when removing dewclaws, and i find that the results are much better. If you combine lidocaine with bicarbonate, it doesn't sting nearly as much, and the puppy or dog doesn't even flinch. Further, if you use a local anesthetic with epinephrine, you get far less bleeding.
 
When my oldest cat was a kitten (probably about 5-6 months) we tried to put soft paws on him. All he did was EAT them off of his nails...I mean, he'd ingest them, and we'd find them in his poop. He's still alive, and we ended up getting him declawed (he was destroying the house and he has aggression problems) and his surgery was very painful. The vet told us that it would be better to do the surgery younger, rather than to wait until the cat was 8 months old....

So our other two were declawed at the very youngest age possible. I'm sure thats not ideal...but doing the surgery at 8 months was terrible on our big H, who has always been a large cat.

I guess what I'm getting at is how to navigate that whole situation; its better to do the declaw when the cat is small, but if you're not doing it routinely, then you're waiting for behavioral issues to manifest or waiting for other solutions to work.
 
I guess what I'm getting at is how to navigate that whole situation; its better to do the declaw when the cat is small, but if you're not doing it routinely, then you're waiting for behavioral issues to manifest or waiting for other solutions to work.

I see what you're saying. You have to weigh your options: either you get it done young when it will be less painful for the cat, or you wait until you find out whether or not there will be behavioral issues that would necessitate a declaw. However, if you look at the larger picture, I think it would be better to wait to see if the animal NEEDS to be declawed than to declaw routinely. After all, behavioral issues may arise, or they may not. But the declaw and the associated pain are a sure thing. Either way you cut it (no pun intended), there will be fewer declaws and therefore less pain (within the cat population as a whole) if you wait rather than declaw as a matter of routine.
 
We have come a long way in our utilization of balanced anesthesia and concepts of pain management in our patients in the past few years. Although declawing a cat isn't the nicest thing to do to them, there are circumstances where the procedure has its place still, and i continue to perform the surgery (vets will very in their position on this issue). I especially find that if i use a CO2 laser to perform the operation, in conjunction with local anesthesia (blocking the dorsal and plantar palmar and digital nerves), and utilize appropriate pre-op and post-op systemic pain management, i can vastly diminish post-op pain to a nearly undetectable level. I doubt that the cat is not feeling any pain whatsoever, but I am sufficiently satisfied that when I do the procedure my way, I am not causing the cat an unacceptable level of discomfort.

I agree that it is much easier to declaw a cat that is younger rather than older - however I still have similar success declawing older cats without causing significant (obvious) discomfort.
 
Ok, I just happened accross this forum today and want to weigh in. I want to address the Declawing (not the dewclaw removal like the thread has been migrating towards).

The one issue I have with a lot of the comments is that it keeps being brought up that "if you don't want to be scratched, don't own a cat". We have to really analyze where cats have come from and that EVERYTHING we do to them or for them is not what they were intended for. They were domesticated for OUR enjoyment and use. Now don't misunderstand me, I think that the domestication of the cat is great, but do you really think that having a strictly indoor cat is FAIR to them, if you consider the line of thinking that we declaw strictly out of convenience. EVERYTHING we do for our cats is for our convenience. Do you think they enjoy pooping and peeing in a small box full of litter? That is just the tip of the iceberg. Now I am proud to say that I have 5 cats that are strictly indoor and ALL 5 of them are declawed. I have to admit that the first cat we got was declawed at about 1 year old and by a veterinarian who didn't do a very good job. We had some complications with infection and pain management, but after that she has been doing great. The others were done by a more competent veterinarian and had NO complications.

I guess the real point I wanted to make is that EVERYTHING we do for our domestic cats is out of convenience (ultimately).
 
Having seen kittens after a declaw, I definitly want to say that I am against the declaw procedure. Also, I have an outdoor cat (who is now 18 and has taken to staying inside), and can't imagine having to put him through that. But...

there are soo many cats on the streets and in shelters. By the time the declaw procedure is done (at a young age) they probably will not remember it years later. Also kittens are fortunate to be able to take painkillers, while puppys with tail docking and such can not. Giving these cats a home is extremely important. And a lot of families would be willing to take them in minus the claws. I don't think its a matter of lazyness, my cat is very well trained (minus the begging at the dinner table, which is a recent development, thanks to my dad when I left for college). And he still likes to stretch up on the couch side. Mind you when i say trained, he comes when he is called, he always goes in the litter box, he knows what rooms he has to stay out of.

that being said, i think the procedure is terrible, but it will help more cats have loving homes (it is not purely cosmetic as some other procedures)


It's the removal of an entire toe segment (including bone) for our "comfort" or "preference". Many cats who are declawed experience pain walking, arthritis at an early age, joint/tendon/ligament problems, or pain when scratching in the litter box. Infections are not at all uncommon post-surgery.

The problems that people have mentioned (scratching furniture, clawing humans or other animals) are training issues. Cats can be taught to scratch only on appropriate surfaces if their owners provide them.

In my opinion, it is a drastic and unfair procedure that humans have invented only because they are lazy and don't want to train a cat. If you don't want to be scratched or own an animal with claws...don't own a cat! It's very simple. But to amputate a portion of the cat's toe because you don't feel like having a scratch or two on furniture is pretty ridiculous.
 
Also kittens are fortunate to be able to take painkillers, while puppys with tail docking and such can not.

What makes you think we cannot give puppies analgesics?

I assure you we can, and do.
 
I guess the real point I wanted to make is that EVERYTHING we do for our domestic cats is out of convenience (ultimately).

I wonder then, how is it that the European nations (among others) have banned declawing cats for some time?
 
I wonder then, how is it that the European nations (among others) have banned declawing cats for some time?

Good question, Electrophile, and here's my stab at the answer (from my experience living in Europe and being rather connected to the continent in other ways):

While countries differ a lot within the EU, in general there is not the attitude that "the customer is king." This can be frustrating when trying to get good customer service in a retail setting, but it also has its benefits (a lot less headache with tipping, for example).

The governments there recognize certain ethical standards which are deemed priorities for the common good. They tend to elevate this in their policy-making, rather than the consumer and the market, in my opinion. That's why in some countries there are no retail ships open on Sundays or strictly regulated opening hours for grocers or general retail the other six days of the week. Here in the USA it is the triumph of individual desire, the consumer, in a less restricted capitalistic framework.

IMO, in Europe there is more respect for the inherent nature of the animals. That's why a lot of dogs, that are very well kept by regular owners, I will add, are not altered, but also never have the chance to experience pregnancy. There are fewer cats that live exclusively indoors, as well.

So animal welfare concerns in at least some countries are very strong. Germany is a good example. You will find big differences in their food animal industry and also in their keeping of companion animals...

I think that in the US the attitude is that human needs and wants trump those of animals more often than not. One of the above posters reflects that attitude quite saliently...
 
They were domesticated for OUR enjoyment and use.

Still, a line has to be drawn somewhere. Some people think it's fun to beat animals for their enjoyment, but obviously THAT's a bad idea.
 
Still, a line has to be drawn somewhere. Some people think it's fun to beat animals for their enjoyment, but obviously THAT's a bad idea.


Obviously, that is not what I meant by that statement. What I meant was that the domestication of the cat was so that WE could have a companion. It wasn't to get the cat off the street or help it in any way. We did it for our use. I am totally against animal cruelty in ANY fashion, but when I declaw my cat I am not doing it out of lazyness or convenience. I am doing it because I want my cats to stay indoors (strictly) for their own safety. There are too many predators outside that could potentially harm my cat (including cars). Also, my mother had a cat that constantly dislocated her shoulder because her claws got caught in things. It is also somewhat of a safety issue to declaw cats. There is a lot of potential to harm themselves when staying inside.
 
Not that I'm totally pro-tail docking, but that's done at a MUCH younger age. The puppies are barely coherent, and the nerve endings on the end of the tail are not even fully formed. Again, not that I think that makes it a good idea, but it's not as though they're used to using their tails and suddenly they get taken away. The tail is also small at that age and heals very quickly. There's a huge difference between removing a tail at 2-5 days of age and removing ten fully functional toe ends when a kitten is 8 weeks old. In addition, docking is often done by banding, which is quite different from declawing surgery.

We don't declaw or tail dock in Australia (tail docking was recently made illegal). I think its great that we don't do these unnecessary procedures. Surely putting the claw covers on is a better option than declawing???
 
Obviously, that is not what I meant by that statement. What I meant was that the domestication of the cat was so that WE could have a companion. It wasn't to get the cat off the street or help it in any way. We did it for our use. I am totally against animal cruelty in ANY fashion, but when I declaw my cat I am not doing it out of lazyness or convenience. I am doing it because I want my cats to stay indoors (strictly) for their own safety. There are too many predators outside that could potentially harm my cat (including cars). Also, my mother had a cat that constantly dislocated her shoulder because her claws got caught in things. It is also somewhat of a safety issue to declaw cats. There is a lot of potential to harm themselves when staying inside.

Are you seriously suggesting that you declawed your cat as some kind of saftey precaution??? It sounds to me like you are saying that the cat having claws could mean that it might injure itself as a result of having claws. That is probably the most ridiculous thing I have ever heard and is news to me if any vets are recommending that...

Some areas of the world, and in the states, declawing is considered a cruel thing- that is why I am just pointing out that there can be a fine line between what is cruel and what is just a consequence of domestication.
 
Are you seriously suggesting that you declawed your cat as some kind of saftey precaution??? It sounds to me like you are saying that the cat having claws could mean that it might injure itself as a result of having claws. That is probably the most ridiculous thing I have ever heard

100% agree.
 
The puppies are barely coherent, and the nerve endings on the end of the tail are not even fully formed. Again, not that I think that makes it a good idea, but it's not as though they're used to using their tails and suddenly they get taken away. The tail is also small at that age and heals very quickly.

... i must have missed reading this the first time around...


The idea that the nerve endings are not fully formed is 100% false, and i'm not sure what gave you that idea (or what source of information you got it from). These puppies feel the pain associated with tail docking just as well as an adult does, even if the puppy isn't able to vocalize or communicate what they're feeling as effectively as an adult does. Further, whether the puppy is used to having its tail present or not is irrelevant.
 
... i must have missed reading this the first time around...


The idea that the nerve endings are not fully formed is 100% false, and i'm not sure what gave you that idea (or what source of information you got it from). These puppies feel the pain associated with tail docking just as well as an adult does, even if the puppy isn't able to vocalize or communicate what they're feeling as effectively as an adult does. Further, whether the puppy is used to having its tail present or not is irrelevant.
Not able to vocalize? Man, the puppies I've seen get the tails docked always scream like little banshees. I definitely feel bad for them. It's just that they forget it more quickly than an adult would and it heals faster (yay for small areas and quickly growing puppies).
 
... i must have missed reading this the first time around...


The idea that the nerve endings are not fully formed is 100% false, and i'm not sure what gave you that idea (or what source of information you got it from). These puppies feel the pain associated with tail docking just as well as an adult does, even if the puppy isn't able to vocalize or communicate what they're feeling as effectively as an adult does. Further, whether the puppy is used to having its tail present or not is irrelevant.

Earlier in this thread I posted some really interesting work done in the 1970s and 1980s on human neonates and surgical pain. Same idea. They used to think that babies couldn't feel pain so they just had to immobilize them for surgery. 😱

Just because a creature is young doesn't mean the pain pathways aren't developed. There are now people who are studying fetal pain, too. Something to think about.
 
Are you seriously suggesting that you declawed your cat as some kind of saftey precaution??? It sounds to me like you are saying that the cat having claws could mean that it might injure itself as a result of having claws. That is probably the most ridiculous thing I have ever heard and is news to me if any vets are recommending that...

Some areas of the world, and in the states, declawing is considered a cruel thing- that is why I am just pointing out that there can be a fine line between what is cruel and what is just a consequence of domestication.

Ok, my comment earlier may have been taken for more than what it was intended. First off, I am not a veterinarian (yet). I was merely stating that it is ONE reason that I have had my cats declawed. I also want to point out that I have formed my opinion about declawing my cats based on the information that I have been shown or have read about the subject. I am always open to changing this opinion but I hate it how most of the AGAINST debate keeps referencing other countries. I am sorry but the comment "Most of europe finds it cruel" or "It's outlawed in Australia" don't really do much for the argument. It is that Everyone else is doing it mentality. If you really want me to change my opinion, give me FACTS.
 
I hate it how most of the AGAINST debate keeps referencing other countries. I am sorry but the comment "Most of europe finds it cruel" or "It's outlawed in Australia" don't really do much for the argument. It is that Everyone else is doing it mentality. If you really want me to change my opinion, give me FACTS.

Agreed. Things might be outlawed in Europe that are legal here, but try bringing a dog to a vet in Italy and asking for them to neuter him... they'll look at you like you're nuts.
 
...try bringing a dog to a vet in Italy and asking for them to neuter him... they'll look at you like you're nuts.
Warning: Total immaturity ahead-
I totally giggled hard core when I read this. Haha, nuts. :laugh:

Okay, I'm done being 12 now.
 
http://www.geocities.com/declawing/

Found this website today that pretty much sums up why I believe what I believe. It actually touches on a lot of the issues that are discussed on this thread, including the reasons why the USA and other countries have differing views on the procedure.

I just ask all of you reading, whether for or against it, to keep an open mind when reading.
 
We don't declaw or tail dock in Australia (tail docking was recently made illegal). I think its great that we don't do these unnecessary procedures. Surely putting the claw covers on is a better option than declawing???

Um yes, it is. I've been advocating anything BUT declawing through this entire thread. Where did you get the idea that I am pro-declaw?


dvm'08-

I'm sure you're right about puppies, but the reaction of a docked puppy compared to what an adult dog would do if you whacked off its entire tail is not the same. How do you account for that difference?
 
Um yes, it is. I've been advocating anything BUT declawing through this entire thread. Where did you get the idea that I am pro-declaw?


dvm'08-

I'm sure you're right about puppies, but the reaction of a docked puppy compared to what an adult dog would do if you whacked off its entire tail is not the same. How do you account for that difference?

I wasn't commenting on your opinion about it I was making a comment about the procedure in general...........
 
because its really a completely foreign thing to me, we've never discussed it at uni and I'm in final year. Not that the soft claws things are common here either, I've only heard of one place that does them.

Guess we Aussies just accept our chairs shredded? 🙂
 
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