Dealing with attending

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LuckyBambooGirl

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I'm frustrated because I just started third year and my attending has absolutely zero patience for mistakes of any kind. If I am presenting to him and I misspeak or something, he won't give me a chance to correct myself, he jumps all over it and makes me look like a total idiot and gives me this huge lecture. This attitude trickles down to the residents too. I understand that I am just starting out and I will make mistakes. I don't expect myself to be perfect at this point, but being yelled at definitely does not help me learn! I get flustered when he is around because I don't want him to jump all over me, but there have been several times when I thought I prepared myself very well and he still found something to criticize and lecture about. Any advice for dealing with this type of attending would be greatly appreciated!
 
I think you just need to try to remain composed and deal with it. You can only do your best. How does he treat other medical students/residents/interns?
 
1) Try to mimic the perfectionism of your attending. Different doctors have different styles of delivering care. Some are meticulous. Some are creative. Some are laid back. Some are affectionate and empathetic. All of them secretly believe that their style of giving care is superior. You might as well try out your attending's style. Some aspects of it might be useful.

2) Pretend that you are confident. Even if your attending's insults are blasting your self esteem like a howitzer aimed at a rabbit, don't let it show in your countenance. Be alert yet cool and composed. Be like Rocky Balboa. Take a licking and keep on ticking.
 
I'm frustrated because I just started third year and my attending has absolutely zero patience for mistakes of any kind. If I am presenting to him and I misspeak or something, he won't give me a chance to correct myself, he jumps all over it and makes me look like a total idiot and gives me this huge lecture. This attitude trickles down to the residents too. I understand that I am just starting out and I will make mistakes. I don't expect myself to be perfect at this point, but being yelled at definitely does not help me learn! I get flustered when he is around because I don't want him to jump all over me, but there have been several times when I thought I prepared myself very well and he still found something to criticize and lecture about. Any advice for dealing with this type of attending would be greatly appreciated!

that sucks. just be thankful you won't have to be with him after the rotation is done. i would make notes of his advice and try to improve each time. don't take it personally.
 
I'm frustrated because I just started third year and my attending has absolutely zero patience for mistakes of any kind. If I am presenting to him and I misspeak or something, he won't give me a chance to correct myself, he jumps all over it and makes me look like a total idiot and gives me this huge lecture. This attitude trickles down to the residents too. I understand that I am just starting out and I will make mistakes. I don't expect myself to be perfect at this point, but being yelled at definitely does not help me learn! I get flustered when he is around because I don't want him to jump all over me, but there have been several times when I thought I prepared myself very well and he still found something to criticize and lecture about. Any advice for dealing with this type of attending would be greatly appreciated!

You already know what to do: Prepare as well as you can and try not to make any mistakes.

Welcome to the medical education. You'll experience a lot more of this as you go along.
 
You already know what to do: Prepare as well as you can and try not to make any mistakes.

Welcome to the medical education. You'll experience a lot more of this as you go along.

Agreed.

There really isnt much you can do.

Use this as an opportunity to make sure you are well prepared for presenting patients.

Welcome to life as a 3rd year medical student.
 
Unfortunately, learn to stand there and take it. Its a can of worms to fight and will make life worse. Next week (or whenever attending change happens) you and everyone else will forget about the harsh moments in the hall.


In my opinon, the BIGGEST thing to learn from this is to lock in you mind the way this person made YOU fiil and vow to NEVER make a medical student, nurse, or other human being feel the same. That is the ONLY way such behavior will change, and I think most people today agree that it's for the better.
 
This has worked for me so far. Pretend that you are not hurt, you are grateful for the correction\learning experience. It will come back as open to criticism in your eval. Feel pissed on the inside and look pleased on the outside. eventually, you will get used to it. Be patient....
 
Thanks for the input! This week has actually been much better than last week, as I have learned that this is just his style and that he is like that to everyone.
 
I'm frustrated because I just started third year and my attending has absolutely zero patience for mistakes of any kind. If I am presenting to him and I misspeak or something, he won't give me a chance to correct myself, he jumps all over it and makes me look like a total idiot and gives me this huge lecture. This attitude trickles down to the residents too. I understand that I am just starting out and I will make mistakes. I don't expect myself to be perfect at this point, but being yelled at definitely does not help me learn! I get flustered when he is around because I don't want him to jump all over me, but there have been several times when I thought I prepared myself very well and he still found something to criticize and lecture about. Any advice for dealing with this type of attending would be greatly appreciated!

I don't think that students should be yelled at for mispeaking when an attending is on the rampage, I have had attendings in the past yell at me for my mannerism of speech, and make nasty comments, that are not constructive. Best advice is to avoid these attendings if at all possible by scheduling the rotation elsewhere. The most incompetent physicians yell alot at students to hide their own lack of knowledge, and hate interacting with patients. I can find something that every attending does wrong if I were allowed to follow them around ant criticize them until they wanted to hang themselves, point is that attendings think that being a teacher means they get to sit on a gold throne and cast judgments down on lowly students, these are the doctors who kill patients because they are so ignorant of their own fallings as they spend all their time mocking/harassing students.
 
I don't think that students should be yelled at for mispeaking when an attending is on the rampage, I have had attendings in the past yell at me for my mannerism of speech, and make nasty comments, that are not constructive. Best advice is to avoid these attendings if at all possible by scheduling the rotation elsewhere. The most incompetent physicians yell alot at students to hide their own lack of knowledge, and hate interacting with patients. I can find something that every attending does wrong if I were allowed to follow them around ant criticize them until they wanted to hand themselves, point is that attendings think that being a teacher means they get to sit on a gold throne and cast judgments down on lowly students, these are the doctors who kill patients because they are so ignorant of their own fallings as they spend all their time mocking students.

Wait a minute...YOU are criticizing attendings for criticizing other students?

:laugh:

Ever stop and think that perhaps the student is deserving of being yelled at?

$hit, Im only an intern and Ive yelled at a few students. There are some people that are pretty damn incompetent...and yes, attendings are not exempt.

But lets be realistic here and remember that this is a 3rd year student whining about being yelled at by someone with infinitely more wisdom than her.

Attending is justified until proven otherwise, and you ChildNeuro are not the one to do that. 👍
 
Wait a minute...YOU are criticizing attendings for criticizing other students?

:laugh:

Ever stop and think that perhaps the student is deserving of being yelled at?

$hit, Im only an intern and Ive yelled at a few students. There are some people that are pretty damn incompetent...and yes, attendings are not exempt.

But lets be realistic here and remember that this is a 3rd year student whining about being yelled at by someone with infinitely more wisdom than her.

Attending is justified until proven otherwise, and you ChildNeuro are not the one to do that. 👍

I don't think anybody is being deserved of being yelled at, studies show it is not constructive to learning. I am saddened to hear that you have yelled at students, I am assuming this means that you got verbally abusive toward a student for not having infinite wisdom as an attending?!? I don't think that attendings have a right to be verbally abusive to medical student. I don't think there is any justification of medical student abuse. I don't understand your last statement, but let me ask you this: Are you eagerly anticpating becoming an attending so you can be justified until proven otherwise? Attendings power to harass without consequence is being challenged nationwide at different schools.

I think by definition all begining third year medical students are incompetent, alot/majority of residents are incompetent in some areas of patient care that they don't have experience with, and a large number of abusive attendings are incompetent and take out their realization that they dislike medicine on their students. If you like medicine, you will do well, and won't be going around chewing people out, if you don't like medicine you will take it out on your colleagues, students, residents, and even start using drugs and/or alcohol. I see an abusive attending, and I see a disaster waiting to happen. Tell us what institution you are at so we can avoid it in the future. As for your abuse of medical students as a resident, all I can say is that you should be ashamed of yourself! People who support medical student abuse typicall state that it is normal and part of third year, like you did in your previous post.
 
Ever stop and think that perhaps the student is deserving of being yelled at?

Bingo. Next time before anyone hear gets offended at being yelled at, stop and consider whether or not you deserved it. 9 times out of 10 you're getting yelled at because you did something you weren't supposed to do, or you didn't do something you should have.

We are all guilty of this from time to time, and we deserve to have someone come down on us. I had it happen twice today. I said, "Sorry sir, won't happen again." And it won't.

Medicine isn't a joke, or some fast food job where screwups have little long-term consequences. When you forget to order a test, or fail to mention an important physical exam finding, you are potentially injuring another human being. Every little f*ckup is potentially devastating to your patients. That's why they come down so hard on us, not that they're "having a bad day."

If you haven't figured this out by now, you need pull your head out of your a$$ and remember what the hell you signed up for, and what you want to do with your life.
 
Bingo. Next time before anyone hear gets offended at being yelled at, stop and consider whether or not you deserved it. 9 times out of 10 you're getting yelled at because you did something you weren't supposed to do, or you didn't do something you should have.

We are all guilty of this from time to time, and we deserve to have someone come down on us. I had it happen twice today. I said, "Sorry sir, won't happen again." And it won't.

Medicine isn't a joke, or some fast food job where screwups have little long-term consequences. When you forget to order a test, or fail to mention an important physical exam finding, you are potentially injuring another human being. Every little f*ckup is potentially devastating to your patients. That's why they come down so hard on us, not that they're "having a bad day."

If you haven't figured this out by now, you need pull your head out of your a$$ and remember what the hell you signed up for, and what you want to do with your life.

LOL :laugh:if you need someone yelling at you to realize that you almost killed someone or caused longterm damage then maybe you shouldn't be a doctor! Just kidding though. All of my clinical mistakes, whether yelled at by attending or not, I chastized myself enough to make sure it didn't happen again. Medical studnet/resident abuse makes people unhappy that they went into medicine, not good doctors so the studies say . . . I don't think yelling at a med student for 15 minutes, about a presentation that was well thought, is justified, it has happened to me and others on a daily basis, stay away from these attendings if you can. I don't buy the argument that attendings use which is basically, "I'm an attending, there are lives on the line here, therefore I will treat you like scum and the dirt of the earth because it is somehow justified in the end." Most attendings are crappy teachers anyway and arrogant, this is what kills patients.
 
All of my clinical mistakes, whether yelled at by attending or not, I chastized myself enough to make sure it didn't happen again.

No, it's very clear that what you actually do is ascribe the criticisms you receive to the personal character of your attendings. All your posts revolve around how the big, bad attendings pick on you because they're bad people. This is a common attitude in both med students and residents. When people take responsibility for their mistakes, they are far less likely to get yelled at. Perhaps if you would man-up and acknowledge your errors, they wouldn't send you home with tears in your eyes so often.
 
I don't think anybody is being deserved of being yelled at, studies show it is not constructive to learning.

Are you for real? If not you may quite possibly be the best troll in years.
 
No, it's very clear that what you actually do is ascribe the criticisms you receive to the personal character of your attendings. All your posts revolve around how the big, bad attendings pick on you because they're bad people. This is a common attitude in both med students and residents. When people take responsibility for their mistakes, they are far less likely to get yelled at. Perhaps if you would man-up and acknowledge your errors, . . .

Well, I sure haven't gotten alot of criticisms lately!, and of course Tired, I like other students learn from our errors. What about the fellow student I saw you who got yelled at because of his race? Is he supposed to take that criticism to heart and change his race? Get real. You act like all attendings do is give constructive criticism, not all criticism is constructive, i.e. harassing a student by singly them out and making very personal comments that have nothing to do with medicine. Do you believe that medical student abuse doesn't exist!!?!? Most attendings, the vast majority don't "pick on me". You need to see what a real malignant rotation is about Tired and see attednings who curse, hit (I've been struck by an attending), and otherwise threaten students. 99.7% of the time I don't get harassed, I get reasonable comments about my work. IMHO the situation in clinical medicine is out of control where almost anything goes in terms of medical student maltreatment. YOU clearly don't understand what defines medical student abuse. I actually think you went to a more humanistic med school as you obviously have no experience with real abuse or maybe you like kicking around medical students. I've only meet about three really abusive attendings out of dozens and dozens buddy boy. Alot of students become cynical doctors after years of abuse, we have an upset student and you seem to be saying that any criticism of attendings is a delusional med student!?! Not everybody wants to live a military-style world like you do Tired .. . .
 
Are you for real? If not you may quite possibly be the best troll in years.

Define yelled, i.e. for 10-15 minutes atteding insults you, asks you how you made it so far in med schools, and berrates you over . . . not knowing what room your patient is in. You've been brain-washed by med school.


Edit: I broke my personal rule of not responding to anyone who has the reaper of death as their personal picture.
 
Most attendings are crappy teachers anyway and arrogant, this is what kills patients.

Dear ChildNeuro:

We all realize from your many posts that you have had a bad experience in the past with one or more attendings whom you believe have abused you. In describing the situation and in providing a measure of support to others who are also feeling abused, please reconsider the language you use and how it affects your argument.

In other words, consider saying "I have had attendings who were crappy teachers...and thus I understand your situation." We would all agree with that I think and recognize it as a supportive statement.

You could say "Most of my attendings were crappy teachers.....and thus I am not surprised that you have similar attendings." This would make me wonder how many attendings you've had and what your criteria was for "crappiness." We would further wonder how many patient deaths you had personally witnessed that could be related to physican error, let along "arrogance." Still, I wouldn't disagree per se because you are subjectively describing your own experience.

But, in many of your posts on a nearly daily basis, you generalize attendings and indicate that they commonly (in this quote you say "most") have abusive tendencies or are "crappy" or use similar insulting terms. Since you don't give a pubmed reference showing that the majority of attendings are crappy teachers, don't define the reason or basis for defining it that way, and we know you haven't evaluated the teaching skills of more than 50% of the attending physicians in the US, we can only assume that you are making a biased, generalized, unsupported insult. Now, like ethnic insults this type of generalization is offensive and insulting. It certainly does not help the poster you are trying to support.

Please consider the impact of your argument style and if possible, avoid insulting the majority of attendings, including me, whom you have never met.
 
Dear ChildNeuro:

We all realize from your many posts that you have had a bad experience in the past with one or more attendings whom you believe have abused you. In describing the situation and in providing a measure of support to others who are also feeling abused, please reconsider the language you use and how it affects your argument.

In other words, consider saying "I have had attendings who were crappy teachers...and thus I understand your situation." We would all agree with that I think and recognize it as a supportive statement.

You could say "Most of my attendings were crappy teachers.....and thus I am not surprised that you have similar attendings." This would make me wonder how many attendings you've had and what your criteria was for "crappiness." We would further wonder how many patient deaths you had personally witnessed that could be related to physican error, let along "arrogance." Still, I wouldn't disagree per se because you are subjectively describing your own experience.

But, in many of your posts on a nearly daily basis, you generalize attendings and indicate that they commonly (in this quote you say "most") have abusive tendencies or are "crappy" or use similar insulting terms. Since you don't give a pubmed reference showing that the majority of attendings are crappy teachers, don't define the reason or basis for defining it that way, and we know you haven't evaluated the teaching skills of more than 50% of the attending physicians in the US, we can only assume that you are making a biased, generalized, unsupported insult. Now, like ethnic insults this type of generalization is offensive and insulting. It certainly does not help the poster you are trying to support.

Please consider the impact of your argument style and if possible, avoid insulting the majority of attendings, including me, whom you have never met.

I apologize for stating that most attendings are crappy teachers. I personally want to be an academic physician and do some really excellent teaching on the wards. I am also very dedicated when it comes to educating my patients about their illnesses. I have worked with many excellent attendings, and a majority of not so excellent attendings, and it distresses me greatly hearing experiences from students concerning attendings who either intentionally or not cause great distress in their students. The OP who started this thread appears to be somewhat distressed. I consider myself as part of the solution, I teach third years alot, and therefore yes, I feel within my rights to criticize the current state of graduate clinical education.

I do not enjoy hearing comments that it is okay to "yell" at students for their mistakes. From the point of view of someone who analyzes the effectiveness of teaching that attendings deliver I have come to the conclusion that many opportunities for teaching on the wards are lost, and the art of teaching medical students has been reduced to daily 5-minute pimp questions with little discussion of patient management. I highly value what attendings have to say about real life patient management, something which you can't get from a textbook. I do not feel that real medical student abuse adds anything to a medical students education.

As a senior medical student I routinely give lectures and explain things to third year medical students that I never had explained to me, whether it be some as simple as what an abbreviation means, to management issues in the ICU. They are always amazed, as am I that they have not been taught these things. I state these things not to elevate myself on this anonymous forum, but to point out that much of medical student's time and patience is wasted by attedings in teaching hospitals who are verbally aggressive with students, and not focused on teaching. If I can do an excellent job, why aren't attendings doing even more excellent teaching? To further elaborate, most attendings haven't received any training to be teachers, i.e. to develope educational objectives, standardized curriculum, or how to best interact with students in a teaching mode. If I was a teaching attending I would be interested in attending perhaps a one-time one week course, maybe for CME credit, on how to smoothly run a ward and teach med students and residents, alot of attendings are very awkward at teaching to put it mildly, and some take out alot of their frustrations on students. For some reason college professors and other teachers don't do this. To re-phrase my comment, I would say that, "Most attendings are not taught how to rise above the level of a crappy teacher, based on my personal experience, maybe N=75." Remember we make generalizations all the time in medicine, like most patients with diabetes have symptom X, do we really need to study 50% of diabetics to say this!?!? Many attendings look down and intellectually bully students into thinking that they don't know how to think anymore. I've had enough experience in clinical medicine to make a reasonable estimation of the poor teaching abilities of alot of attendings. While Tildy may have served on alot of commitees, that doesn't mean that he/she has a good handle on medical student abuse, especially from the perspective of a medical student.

Very bad teaching practices are alive and well in medicine and should be addressed. Attendings and residents do make generalizations about us, my fav: "Third years are the worst." Not as bad as what I said as I was one of the third years in the room at the time. Attendings can be very blunt or even abusive in comments, it would be nice if students could be so openly, a taste of their own medicine. I am sorry for Tildy feeling upset, though if a medical student is upset by an attendings comments we are expected to, "Grow some thicker skin." There are several attendings who I wish I could have properly notified them of the expected style of which disparaging comments are to be directed towards me.

I think we would agree that many things that attendings do in the context of "teaching" would cause a college or high school teacher to be fired on the spot, i.e. racial slurs, significant bullying, etc. . . Attendings probably feel their power status in the medical heirarchy decline as patients can look up diseases and treatments online and file lawsuits when there are adverse outcomes. Some attendings would be upset to give up the environment that allows them to make multiple abrassive and abusive comments to students and residents. Medical students rely on a small, but significant cadre of attendings to teach them well and to treat them humanely, when in reality this should become a basic right as a medical student. Alot is being said about humanism, and bed-side manner in today's medicine, but I think without addressing the systematic abuse of medical students this is nothing more than lip service. Honestly, I think that medical students filing more lawsuits for abuse on the wards is one real world consequence that attendings should face if they are serial abusers.

While I may have been abused as a third year, I am not alone, a *majority* of medical students have been abused as medical students in medical school, and a lesser, although significant, amount report the abuse as being significant. Abused medical students are more likely to be unsatisfied with their career as a physician, and I would suspect this may negatively affect the care they give, there is a study in BMJ I believe that attests to this (i.e. abuse=unhappy doc), as does common sense.

Most attendings are not abusive, I did not say anywhere in this post that most attendings are abusive at all if you had carefully read my post, but abusive attendings and residents with whom I have worked have delivered sub-standard care, which I believe was influenced by the amount of time they spent harassing students and less time teaching and taking care of the patient, which resulted in three negative outcomes. While a minority of attendings are abusive, they are the ones that cause serious distress for students, and make an unsafe hospital environment for the patients, and are discussed by troubled students on the wards and on this discusson board. I have not been abused by attending for, well, a long time, for some reason my luck has placed me at excellent institutions, but when I hear about students who are obviously distressed, and possibly have legitimate concerns about an abusive attending I think we can all identify with that.


ChildNeuro
 
I don't think that students should be yelled at for mispeaking when an attending is on the rampage, I have had attendings in the past yell at me for my mannerism of speech, and make nasty comments, that are not constructive. Best advice is to avoid these attendings if at all possible by scheduling the rotation elsewhere. The most incompetent physicians yell alot at students to hide their own lack of knowledge, and hate interacting with patients. I can find something that every attending does wrong if I were allowed to follow them around ant criticize them until they wanted to hang themselves, point is that attendings think that being a teacher means they get to sit on a gold throne and cast judgments down on lowly students, these are the doctors who kill patients because they are so ignorant of their own fallings as they spend all their time mocking/harassing students.

Can you hear me? You're so high up there on your pedestal that I can barely see you. 🙄 :meanie: Ever heard the expression that people are most bothered by the flaws they know exist in themselves when they see them in others. :laugh:
 
Can you hear me? You're so high up there on your pedestal that I can barely see you. 🙄 :meanie: Ever heard the expression that people are most bothered by the flaws they know exist in themselves when they see them in others. :laugh:

That's a good point, and a funny comment. But if you criticize me, sort of out of the blue for being on a pedestal, does that mean that you really recognize this problem in yourself and are bothered by it? Does this saying seem to verify the possibility that attendings harass students for perceived flaws that they know actually exist in themselves and are bothered by it? Just kidding, but your point has alot of merit. There is a flip side to everything, an assertive student versus an arrogant student, a thoughtful student versus an overly quiet student, a mature student versus a shy student. Does your observation mean that attendings who are angry with people a large amount of the time have alot of flaws?
 
But if you criticize me, sort of out of the blue for being on a pedestal, does that mean that you really recognize this problem in yourself and are bothered by it?

Possibly, but then again- unlike yourself- I'm more than willing to admit the glaring flaws in my personality. In other words, I know I'm an dingus. I've yet to hear you cop to being anything even close to what most people assess you to be.

Does this saying seem to verify the possibility that attendings harass students for perceived flaws that they know actually exist in themselves and are bothered by it?
No, chances are decent that they are not picking on perceived flaws but rather shortcomings that actually exist. Apparently you either never took or failed to pay attention (because you already knew everything) during philosophy class when they covered Occam's razor.

There is a flip side to everything, an assertive student versus an arrogant student, a thoughtful student versus an overly quiet student, a mature student versus a shy student.
Two guesses which one most people probably believe you to be. First one does not count.


Does your observation mean that attendings who are angry with people a large amount of the time have alot of flaws?
See above reference. It probably means that the person (for example: you) getting their ass chewed probably did something- such as walk in with a chip on her shoulder- to require their ego being taken down a few pegs.

Since you rely so heavily upon your own experiences (which I am assuming are rather limited), let me interject an observation of my own: In the decade I've worked in hospitals, including a hospital where my presence (as the lead RT on shift) on rounds in the morning was mandated along with the medicine residents and students- I have yet to see a competent and appropriately assertive resident or student have their head displayed on a pike by any attending. What I have seen is more than my fair share of smartass little students taken down a few notches by the attending or senior resident or students who apparently either did not learn or did not even try to learn what they needed to know for that rotation be reprimanded for this with varying degrees of venom.

your point has alot of merit.

Thank you. I may dislike you and think you're a pompous ass, but I never turn down a compliment. :laugh:
 
DropKick, do you think you could change your icon which shows people committing suicide by various means, I think that alot of people would find this offensive, especially on a medicine forum where people generally try to keep people alive. I don't think that two wrongs make a right, i.e. a student who is perceived as having a chip on their shoulder getting "venom" by a thug attending.
 
I have yet to see a competent and appropriately assertive resident or student have their head displayed on a pike by any attending. What I have seen is more than my fair share of smartass little students taken down a few notches by the attending or senior resident or students who apparently either did not learn or did not even try to learn what they needed to know for that rotation be reprimanded for this with varying degrees of venom.

I would agree with you on this one.

You cant get mad at the student for getting something wrong IF:
- They work hard
- They are "appropriately assertive" as you mention
- Have a good attitude
- Make a serious effort at learning the material

Everyone will get questions wrong, regardless of how smart you are. Its even happened to me twice in my life.


You CAN get mad at a student if:
- They do NOT work hard
- Have a poor attitude
- Have a lack of respect for those ahead of him/her
- Just dont put forth a worthwhile effort

I will repeat what I said above...more often than not the person quick to complain about the way they were treated is wrong. They dont see what they did as a negative thing.

"I did everything he told me to and he still yelled at me...waaaahhh." Give me a break.

Does that sometimes happen? Sure, but not often.

Usually you make a ******* mistake, say something the wrong way or with the wrong tone OR you need to be assertively corrected. In other words, you deserve it.

Everyone has a bad day, including attendings, but lets be real here. There is a medical student whining about the way they are treated by someone above them. Get over it. It happens every day of your training from the time you set foot on the floor in your short white coat until one week before graduating your residency program. And then after that you STILL get criticized by everyone else...nurses, other services, patients.

Medicine isnt a puppy dogs & ice cream type of field. Mistakes can hurt people. This isnt playtime, ok? You need to learn your $hit and get the job done.

If someone yells at you for something, regardless of whether you feel it was justified or not, brush it off. BUT remember why they yelled in the first place and try to adjust accordingly (if its reasonable).

If you are continually getting yelled at then the FIRST place you should look is in the mirror, NOT at the person doing the yelling. In just the past month Ive said a few things to students that I wish I didnt have to say...but somtimes they just leave no other option.

If you make a mistake once, fine. If you get yelled at a second time...forget it, then you damn well DO deserve whatever you get.

This thread is almost as ridiculous as the 3rd year medical student who was griping about how his intern "acted like he knew everything". 🙄

Youre a medical student...KNOW YOUR ROLE.

Im an intern...lightyears ahead of you in the medical hierarchy despite being only a few years further along in my training...and even I know my role when it comes to residents and attendings.

You think I take the time to correct those above me, bitch about things or whine and complain when Im told that I need to work nightfloat? No.

But maybe thats because Im a surgical resident...we tend to see things realistically and NOT bitch about having to work hard.

If the OP feels this is truly a problem then perhaps another career is the best answer. Do teachers get yelled at by the principle? (or is that a puppy dogs & ice cream career?)
 
I don't think that two wrongs make a right, i.e. a student who is perceived as having a chip on their shoulder getting "venom" by a thug attending.

Are you kidding me?

🙄

Youre going to get walked all over someday.
 
DropKick, do you think you could change your icon which shows people committing suicide by various means, I think that alot of people would find this offensive, especially on a medicine forum where people generally try to keep people alive

You'd be amazed how few people complain (for those keeping score: 2, including yourself) because, unlike you, most of them are:
1. In touch with reality.
2. In possession of fully functional senses of irony, sarcasm and humor.

Actually I have gotten more than a few compliments on it because people realize it's meant sarcastically. At one time though, I did have a disclaimer in my signature for people like yourself.

I don't think that two wrongs make a right, i.e. a student who is perceived as having a chip on their shoulder getting "venom" by a thug attending.

How else do you expect them to learn? If someone truly has a chip on their shoulder, it generally takes something involving either physical violence or public humiliation to break them of it. As the saying goes:
09dc4433.gif
 
You'd be amazed how few people complain (for those keeping score: 2, including yourself) because, unlike you, most of them are:
1. In touch with reality.
2. In possession of fully functional senses of irony, sarcasm and humor.

Actually I have gotten more than a few compliments on it because people realize it's meant sarcastically. At one time though, I did have a disclaimer in my signature for people like yourself.



How else do you expect them to learn? If someone truly has a chip on their shoulder, it generally takes something involving either physical violence or public humiliation to break them of it. As the saying goes:
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I haven't seen any medical student with a chip on their shoulder, most third year are really afraid and not confident starting third year, I think that you are justifying physical violence and verbal abuse by making it look like the student deserved it. What if you mistake a chip on a shoulder for something else? What do you say to the student, sorry about the constant verbal abuse, I guess I didn't fix you. Again, two wrongs don't make a right, it just perpetuate a system of abuse I guess. If you had a family member comit suicide like I have, then you wouldn't be posting a how to hurt yourself guide. I would ask you again to take your suicide icon. People who have really been abused in life don't glorify abuse with your weird respect sign. I weep for the future.
 
I think that you are justifying physical violence and verbal abuse by making it look like the student deserved it.

Sorry, I didn't realize medical education was supposed to be the grad school version of Happy Tree Friends. No one (unless they were a weak and horribly flawed human being to begin with....you know the kind.....) has died because someone hurt their feelings whilst indicating that their head was crammed up their ass or that they forgot their place in the food chain.

Just so you know I never justified physical violence. I simply indicated it tends to be the most expedient way in non-professional settings to bring people like yourself back to reality. Once again, your ability to detect sarcasm is called into question.

Again, two wrongs don't make a right, it just perpetuate a system of abuse I guess.

It isn't a system of abuse....it's a system you think involves abuse. Most of the rest of us think you're just a whiny little brat who is tired of getting her hand slapped and sick of not having her ass kissed.

If you had a family member comit suicide like I have, then you wouldn't be posting a how to hurt yourself guide.

I have. In fact, I'm the one who found my uncle (as a 13 y/o) and was the last one to talk to him before he died.

People who have really been abused in life don't glorify abuse with your weird respect sign.
I never claimed to be abused. I grew up in a loving and respectful household. How have you been abused? Did you not get enough hugs from your mommy and daddy growing up and now you expect your surgical attending to make up for it? Or are you just having flashbacks to when you were spanked as a child for whatever you did wrong?

I would ask you again to take your suicide icon _______.
I think you forget a preposition there sweetheart (I even underlined it to make it easy for you to go back and edit it), but here's my answer: I've been trying to get you to shut the hell up, but you continue to refuse to do so, therefore I will continue to tell you where you can shove your suggestion to change my avatar. Hint (since you don't pick up on subtlety very well): It's the same place your head currently resides.

Oh, and just FYI, we buried my uncle on my 14th birthday. Thanks for asking.
 
Here's the truth people, from someone that's worked in many different trades, you're going to run into all kinds of different people. I've yelled at people in my jobs before, and none of them as cut throat as medicine. You really have to stop taking their comments personally and dig out the constructive criticism and use it to your advantage. I'm getting into medicine because I enjoy the science, but I also love the fast paced environment it presents. Truth is, most people that get into medicine start college directly out of high school, most people that don't start right away seldom have the brains and motivation to do it. What this creates are people that haven't been exposed to the real world and can't deal with real world problems and situations. Long story short, quit bitching and do your jobs.... or don't, see if I care.
 
most people that don't start right away seldom have the brains and motivation to do it.

I agreed with everything you said except for this. You're basically right about the motivation, but the lacking intelligence part (along with your screenname) tends to make me think you're probably one of those people who has not been around long enough to develop people skills. Other than that.....well said. :laugh:
 
I'm frustrated because I just started third year and my attending has absolutely zero patience for mistakes of any kind. If I am presenting to him and I misspeak or something, he won't give me a chance to correct myself, he jumps all over it and makes me look like a total idiot and gives me this huge lecture. This attitude trickles down to the residents too. I understand that I am just starting out and I will make mistakes. I don't expect myself to be perfect at this point, but being yelled at definitely does not help me learn! I get flustered when he is around because I don't want him to jump all over me, but there have been several times when I thought I prepared myself very well and he still found something to criticize and lecture about. Any advice for dealing with this type of attending would be greatly appreciated!

I think it's really important to self-reflect on whether this was criticism or abuse. My current attending is a very meticulous guy, and he does ALWAYS find something to criticize or lecture on. This is his job! It does make me feel like crap sometimes, but when I really think about it, I feel like crap because it's something I should know and I personally feel inadequate about it-- not because he's a bad guy that's out to abuse medical students.

No matter how well you prepare, you're preparing at the level of a third year, and there's leaps and bounds for you to learn before you're an attending. If you were functioning at the level of an attending after two years of medical school, there wouldn't be any need for 3rd year, 4th year, and residency! My resident recently told me that our attending told him that he always pimps us until we don't know an answer, so he always has a teaching point. It's been rough to get used to, but I have to admit I'm learning a ton.

If your attending said everything you did was perfect, you'd never learn anything and s/he wouldn't be a very good teacher. I'm definitely not saying I'm always like "thank you massa, may I have another", because it really does suck to be made to feel inadequate on a daily basis, but the harsh truth is that we ARE inadequate as doctors, which is why we're only 3rd years. Learning what our inadequacies are and improving on them is the only way we're going to get any better. So basically, the sooner you come to grips with the fact that you ARE pretty much an idiot compared to your attending, the happier you're going to be 🙂

That said, I don't think there are very many good reasons for screaming at or being mean to a student, and if that's happening, that does suck, and hopefully there's a pathway for you to resolve it at your school. But make sure this is actually abuse, and not just teaching!
 
Here's the truth people, from someone that's worked in many different trades, you're going to run into all kinds of different people. I've yelled at people in my jobs before, and none of them as cut throat as medicine. You really have to stop taking their comments personally and dig out the constructive criticism and use it to your advantage. I'm getting into medicine because I enjoy the science, but I also love the fast paced environment it presents. Truth is, most people that get into medicine start college directly out of high school, most people that don't start right away seldom have the brains and motivation to do it. What this creates are people that haven't been exposed to the real world and can't deal with real world problems and situations. Long story short, quit bitching and do your jobs.... or don't, see if I care.

Well, ok, I do have real world experience, like real third world hard-core experience (those people don't yell or complain much at all) but I have never felt the need to verbally berate someone like I've seen in medicine. Some people are just "survivors" and want to avoid the issue, and some of us want to change how students are treated in medicine. If you want to change it then on these boards you will make group observations and complain about attendings in not so flattering words, if you don't then you might not care to read our posts. Regardless, I think all our opinions are equally valid whether or not we've yelled at people outside medical school and thought nothing of it.
 
I do have real world experience, like real third world hard-core experience

Reminds me of a joke from when I was working with an Army unit:
"What's the most dangerous thing you can hear come out of a second lieutenant's mouth?"
"Based upon my experience, I think we should....."
 
Reminds me of a joke from when I was working with an Army unit:
"What's the most dangerous thing you can hear come out of a second lieutenant's mouth?"
"Based upon my experience, I think we should....."

:laugh:

👍
 
I agreed with everything you said except for this. You're basically right about the motivation, but the lacking intelligence part (along with your screenname) tends to make me think you're probably one of those people who has not been around long enough to develop people skills. Other than that.....well said. :laugh:


My screen name is actually just a nickname my friends gave me because they loved Rocky. Truthfully, I get along with people fine, and I wasn't one to get on people cases, but sometimes people just need someone to get on them. The intelligence thing wasn't a shot at anyone, I was just mentioning that the majority of people that don't go to college immediately after high school don't end up in a career like medicine.
 
My screen name is actually just a nickname my friends gave me because they loved Rocky. Truthfully, I get along with people fine, and I wasn't one to get on people cases, but sometimes people just need someone to get on them. The intelligence thing wasn't a shot at anyone, I was just mentioning that the majority of people that don't go to college immediately after high school don't end up in a career like medicine.
OK.....I get what you're saying. Just the way you worded it was a bit on the offensive side- both to non-trads and to those who are intelligent but choose to apply it in other ways (example: I know a dairy farmer who is far smarter than any physician or scientist I have ever dealt with).
 
This thread seems to have been hijacked by some pretty angry dudes. I did not say chicks. And I don't like that avatar either, it's kind of strange.

Anyway, I think the OP had some good points. I think it is hard as a begining third year to suddenly realize that this is a new and 'unique' learning style. One which we are actually paying for. Most residents, interns and attendings are pretty decent and mean well. Some, take themselves very seriously and feel like students are there to take their frustations out on.

I think Child is right when she says that most third year students are pretty timid and reluctant to speak up. They make easy targets for some so inclined. There is alot of weirdness in how medicine is taught, no question. It seems the best way to get through is to take the advice of many people here and keep your head down, try not to speak too much or out of turn. Bide your time and be humble. Take alot of crap and say 'thank you.' It passes eventually.
 
And I don't like that avatar either, it's kind of strange.

Just so we're clear, the avatar started out as a mockery of all the "I didn't get into med school, my life is over" histrionics in the pre-allopathic forum. One day I made a crack to the effect of "Well, that's funny since I've yet to hear of anyone on SDN killing themselves over it." So I decided to deal with things the way I always have (you know.....when there isn't a med student around for me to torment) with humor. One thing led to another and someone put together the avatar for me based on the images found on wrapping paper sold at www.tshirthell.com.

If it offends you, sorry. The best I will do is to put up another disclaimer in my signature. In fact, I'll do that now.

By the way, I'm a dude, but I'm not angry. Condescending? Always. Degrading? A good portion of the time. Sarcastic? You bet your ass. If I were angry, it probably would have been a lot more vulgar and personal of an attack upon the one person who has turned this thread into her own little personal war on those she feels have wrong her. I won't get into the possible psychiatric origins of this, but suffice to say that at least one person on this thread needs help and it isn't me nor is it JP.
 
Just so we're clear, the avatar started out as a mockery of all the "I didn't get into med school, my life is over" histrionics in the pre-allopathic forum. One day I made a crack to the effect of "Well, that's funny since I've yet to hear of anyone on SDN killing themselves over it." So I decided to deal with things the way I always have (you know.....when there isn't a med student around for me to torment) with humor. One thing led to another and someone put together the avatar for me based on the images found on wrapping paper sold at www.tshirthell.com.

If it offends you, sorry. The best I will do is to put up another disclaimer in my signature. In fact, I'll do that now.

By the way, I'm a dude, but I'm not angry. Condescending? Always. Degrading? A good portion of the time. Sarcastic? You bet your ass. If I were angry, it probably would have been a lot more vulgar and personal of an attack upon the one person who has turned this thread into her own little personal war on those she feels have wrong her. I won't get into the possible psychiatric origins of this, but suffice to say that at least one person on this thread needs help and it isn't me nor is it JP.

LOL
What program did you use to compose it? I want one too:laugh:
 
I'm frustrated because I just started third year and my attending has absolutely zero patience for mistakes of any kind. If I am presenting to him and I misspeak or something, he won't give me a chance to correct myself, he jumps all over it and makes me look like a total idiot and gives me this huge lecture. This attitude trickles down to the residents too. I understand that I am just starting out and I will make mistakes. I don't expect myself to be perfect at this point, but being yelled at definitely does not help me learn! I get flustered when he is around because I don't want him to jump all over me, but there have been several times when I thought I prepared myself very well and he still found something to criticize and lecture about. Any advice for dealing with this type of attending would be greatly appreciated!

Dear OP,
I'm glad you are figuring out your attending. There are some attendings out there who never ever give positive reinforcement, and invariably you will encounter most of then in the first two months of third year.

This thread has been a little heated, so let me tell you that it will get better. Third year will never really be "great", but it will get better. Unless you go to the same school as Child Neuro, you will in time have some absolutely stellar atendings. I would say that 80% of my attendings have been pretty awesome, about 10% were mediocre, and maybe the other 10% should not have been in the role of "teacher". Let's hope your school is also like this. Hang in there.
 
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