Dealing with Attorneys

[PinchandBurn]

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when dealing with attorneys, is there something that we can ask for that shows that they dealt with something? For example, patients can always request a HnP or a progress note of ours when they want to know what was done.

Similarly if attorneys have reviewed our contracts do we just ask them for an inventory of what was done and exactly what was billed for, aside from just a bill? Is there a 'technical name' for that?

 

[lobelsteve]

My personal attorney takes copious notes and provides me with an opinion letter, a formal letter, copies of the notes, and a bill.

He also likes to email info so I save all of that.

 

[mille125]

when dealing with attorneys, is there something that we can ask for that shows that they dealt with something? For example, patients can always request a HnP or a progress note of ours when they want to know what was done.

Similarly if attorneys have reviewed our contracts do we just ask them for an inventory of what was done and exactly what was billed for, aside from just a bill? Is there a 'technical name' for that?

Why do you need it? Is it to question a bill or for another reason?

 

[PinchandBurn]

Why do you need it? Is it to question a bill or for another reason?

It's not for questioning a bill. But I have my reasons.

1) I want there to be paper trail. So in 5 years, if there is something completely negligent that he should have informed me about, I can ask him at that time, "why didnt you tell me about that". IF it's anything like our medical notes, if it's not written, then it wasnt done. So he can always come back and say, 'well i told you and you didnt listen'. This way I have proof of what was done.

2) I want to make sure that he's being reasonable. I think asking for something on paper will show him that I'm responsible. What I dont want him doing, as I've heard some lawyers do, "this is a young doc, let me bill him for $400 for this and that, he's making 6 figures, I'll just milk the guy, he wont know the difference". You get the picture.

3) lawyers ask this of us, why cant we do it back to them? Or I should say, how can we do it back to them, so that they are on their toes?

 

[olafa]

i think it called wallet biopsy- that confims your consult with an attorney if its suddenly thinner. Seriously though, from my limited experience they will typically they provide feedback in writing of the "comments" on contract review. Thing you may or may not want to address.

 

[mille125]

It's not for questioning a bill. But I have my reasons.

1) I want there to be paper trail. So in 5 years, if there is something completely negligent that he should have informed me about, I can ask him at that time, "why didnt you tell me about that". IF it's anything like our medical notes, if it's not written, then it wasnt done. So he can always come back and say, 'well i told you and you didnt listen'. This way I have proof of what was done.

2) I want to make sure that he's being reasonable. I think asking for something on paper will show him that I'm responsible. What I dont want him doing, as I've heard some lawyers do, "this is a young doc, let me bill him for $400 for this and that, he's making 6 figures, I'll just milk the guy, he wont know the difference". You get the picture.

3) lawyers ask this of us, why cant we do it back to them? Or I should say, how can we do it back to them, so that they are on their toes?

No offense but it seems a little paranoid

 

[PMR 4 MSK]

You get what you pay for. If you want the lawyer to prepare you a written report, it's gonna be longer than the contract you gave him to review, and will need another lawyer to interpret it.

 

[SSdoc33]

You get what you pay for. If you want the lawyer to prepare you a written report, it's gonna be longer than the contract you gave him to review, and will need another lawyer to interpret it.

plus, you may have pay for the time of this "extra report". they all work on time billed. i have freinds of mine who lieterally think in 6 minute intervals, as thats how they bill their time.

also, if your lawyer misses something on a contract, you are pretty much S.O.L. what are you gonna do, sue your lawyer? i dont think it really works that way with contract reviews

 

[PMR 4 MSK]

plus, you may have pay for the time of this "extra report". they all work on time billed. i have freinds of mine who lieterally think in 6 minute intervals, as thats how they bill their time.

also, if your lawyer misses something on a contract, you are pretty much S.O.L. what are you gonna do, sue your lawyer? i dont think it really works that way with contract reviews

You can sue lawyers, and there are lawyers who specialize in it. Lawyers are among the most-sued people in America. But unlike us, they don't usually lose sleep over it, it's just part of the game.

The lawyer who reviewed my first contract missed one word that cost me $50K/year x 2 years. I missed it also.

The basic thing you want to know with a contract is "Is this going to screw me in any way?" I.e., is it "fair" ? If you start wanting to change a bunch of clauses, most employers will tell you to take a hike. At some practices, like mine, everyone signs the same contract. No changes for anyone, or they change it for everyone.

 

[Tenesma]

my favorite news story a year or two ago: the lawyers in Florida were in an uproar when legislation was being contemplated (of course not passed) where the lawyer had to post in their office a sign stating that they had Legal Malpractice coverage...

the primary reason the lawyers were against it: By advertising that they had legal malpractice insurance, they'd be more likely to be sued...

interesting how lawyers can have it both ways...

 

[PinchandBurn]

I just think it's ridiculous that lawyers will anty up and be ready to sue at a moment's notice a physician.

I think we physicians should have the same threshold. I'm not sure who it was above that mentioned they had lost $50k because the lawyer missed something (which he did as well). It's ok for him to miss it, but it's the reason that we pay these lawyers to read the document. Otherwise we could read these things ourselves and look up stuff we dont understand on Google

I'm all for putting their feet over the fire so that they do not do a sloppy job.

 

[hyperalgesia]

I thought it would be cool to get a JD and specialize in legal malpractice.
"Oh my gosh your personal injury attorney missed the fact that the doctor didn't do THAT?" Since the case was already settled or thrown out the doc would be safe but the PI attorney would be toast. Muahahaha! (evil laughter). Guess it would probably come back and bite everyone in the ass though...

 

[Jcm800]

my favorite news story a year or two ago: the lawyers in Florida were in an uproar when legislation was being contemplated (of course not passed) where the lawyer had to post in their office a sign stating that they had Legal Malpractice coverage...

the primary reason the lawyers were against it: By advertising that they had legal malpractice insurance, they'd be more likely to be sued...

interesting how lawyers can have it both ways...

i tell this exact story all the time...amazing how things are, when you make the rules...

 

[kdlymes]

The problem with lawyers is that they can take a simple clause and make it into a "what if" 3 paragraph report just to hike up the price a few more thousand.

I agree with pinchandburn as lawyers look at us as unlimited funds, and will always try to manipulate us with bull-s**t.

 

[PMR 4 MSK]

Let's say you may have legal troubles pending. You haven't been sued, but someone is threatening. You go to a lawyer for advice. He doesn't meet with you and then send you a bill. He wants a "retainer." You pay him $2500 for the right to talk with him, maybe do a follow-up phone call.

Then you actually need representation? That $2500 is gone. Now he bills by the hour, probably more than you make.

On the plus side, I've made more off lawyers than I've paid them. Depositions can pay very well. Even a 15-minute meeting with a patient's lawyer last week paid $100.

 

[kdlymes]

He wants a "retainer." You pay him $2500 for the right to talk with him, maybe do a follow-up phone call.
Then you actually need representation? That $2500 is gone. Now he bills by the hour, probably more than you make.

Probably more than you make.......Damm right! Lawyers love doctors. If your a successful doctor, the more they are going to delay your case out using legal jumbo your not going to understand. The retainer is gone immediately, but now your in the middle and at their mercy. Your a rich doctor, and now its going to cost you. They are going to f**k you. My practice partner went through a very expensive divorce. Once he hired his attorney, it was like a shark smelling blood. The divorce was stalled for a year when it should have been a 3-4 month contested divorce. Since he was the bread winner, his wife filed a petition for temporary funds to pay for her expenses and lawyer fees. The judge allowed it and her lawyer got greedy and immediately did the same thing, stalling the process since he knew his clients spouse was responsible for the bill according the the judges grant of funds to his spouse. You better believe his wife took advantage of it. Lawyer fees ended up costing over 300,000 that he had to pay. The judge then threw the book at him for hiding property. Talk about a can of whup ass.
Be careful my friend. Attorneys love doctors.😡 Doctors hate attorneys!

 

[PinchandBurn]

Probably more than you make.......Damm right! Lawyers love doctors. If your a successful doctor, the more they are going to delay your case out using legal jumbo your not going to understand. The retainer is gone immediately, but now your in the middle and at their mercy. Your a rich doctor, and now its going to cost you. They are going to f**k you. My practice partner went through a very expensive divorce. Once he hired his attorney, it was like a shark smelling blood. The divorce was stalled for a year when it should have been a 3-4 month contested divorce. Since he was the bread winner, his wife filed a petition for temporary funds to pay for her expenses and lawyer fees. The judge allowed it and her lawyer got greedy and immediately did the same thing, stalling the process since he knew his clients spouse was responsible for the bill according the the judges grant of funds to his spouse. You better believe his wife took advantage of it. Lawyer fees ended up costing over 300,000 that he had to pay. The judge then threw the book at him for hiding property. Talk about a can of whup ass.
Be careful my friend. Attorneys love doctors.😡 Doctors hate attorneys!

wow...that's just ridiculous.

I hate how we 'fear' them. Yet they feast on us. I dont care how much of a cowboy an MD is, they are cognizant about malpractice issues.

Lawyers should have this problems too...

 

[yamaraja808]

I thought it would be cool to get a JD and specialize in legal malpractice.
"Oh my gosh your personal injury attorney missed the fact that the doctor didn't do THAT?" Since the case was already settled or thrown out the doc would be safe but the PI attorney would be toast. Muahahaha! (evil laughter). Guess it would probably come back and bite everyone in the ass though...

You'd be surprised how many small practice lawyers don't have legal malpractice insurance. LOL

 

[Aether2000]

Legal malpractice and malfeasance against attorneys is quite difficult to prove in many states. Some court cases have found the plaintiff in such cases liable for court costs and damages if the case is found not to have merit or to not meet sufficient legal threshhold. The system is stacked against the public: the lawyers write the laws. The lawyers have legal protection by their bar association (what an interesting term....makes one wonder). The disbarment proceedings are done in private unlike the public licensure board treatment of physicians. Other lawyers are afraid to sue lawyers because they could be countersued or looked upon as a pariah afterwards by their lawyer friends (=referrals).

 

[Mister Mxyzptlk]

The other problem with the Bar is that the standard of care is "Uncle Festus". IOW, what would the stupidest lawyer have done?

I once filed a Bar complaint because a lawyer sent me a letter directly although he knew I had representation. In Texas this is a major no-no. Or so I thought. I sent the Bar a copy of the letter and told them the circumstances. They eventually . . . did nothing. This was, as they say, res ipsa loquitur, which is Latin for "leaving a towel inside the belly when you close".

I called the Bar and spoke with their lawyer. What a nincompoop. After 10 minutes of dancing in circles she said, "Well at least he learned something from this" and I said, "Yeah he learned he can get away with it." Long silence and then not much else to say.

 

[Kphrogg]

when dealing with attorneys, is there something that we can ask for that shows that they dealt with something? For example, patients can always request a HnP or a progress note of ours when they want to know what was done.

Similarly if attorneys have reviewed our contracts do we just ask them for an inventory of what was done and exactly what was billed for, aside from just a bill? Is there a 'technical name' for that?

It depends on the state. However, some states require that a lawyer itemize their costs and justify the hours billed. As a rule of thumb, you can assume it takes a billable hour's worth of research and writing for each page of documents that the lawyer writes for you (in reality it takes a lot more time than that). If you're in litigation, you're looking at hundreds of pages of documents.

Make sure you know how much a lawyer charges per hour before signing him, and check his ratings to determine whether he is worth the price.

 

[Tenesma]

all i have ever gotten was a bill that would list time allotments in 1/10ths of an hour for time spent... they charged me for phone calls, emails, reviewing incoming mail, research, etc... it adds up so quickly it is INSANE...

i once wrote back to a lawyer (who i was friendly with) that

Your legal bill has been denied - you did not provide us notification, nor did you obtain pre-authorization for your services. Your claim is not considered clean since you mis-spelled the mailing address.

Once you have received pre-authorization, we will adjust your bill so as to reflect usual & customary payments. This means that your total bill of $1,400 is really only going to get paid at $43.23. Please expect this payment in 3-4 months. You are not allowed to balance bill the client, and will have to write off the remainder amount.

 

[PMR 4 MSK]

all i have ever gotten was a bill that would list time allotments in 1/10ths of an hour for time spent... they charged me for phone calls, emails, reviewing incoming mail, research, etc... it adds up so quickly it is INSANE...

i once wrote back to a lawyer (who i was friendly with) that

Your legal bill has been denied - you did not provide us notification, nor did you obtain pre-authorization for your services. Your claim is not considered clean since you mis-spelled the mailing address.

Once you have received pre-authorization, we will adjust your bill so as to reflect usual & customary payments. This means that your total bill of $1,400 is really only going to get paid at $43.23. Please expect this payment in 3-4 months. You are not allowed to balance bill the client, and will have to write off the remainder amount.

OMFG I soooo want to try that sometime!

 

[Kphrogg]

Your legal bill has been denied - you did not provide us notification, nor did you obtain pre-authorization for your services. Your claim is not considered clean since you mis-spelled the mailing address.

Once you have received pre-authorization, we will adjust your bill so as to reflect usual & customary payments. This means that your total bill of $1,400 is really only going to get paid at $43.23. Please expect this payment in 3-4 months. You are not allowed to balance bill the client, and will have to write off the remainder amount.

That's great! What was his response?

 

[Tenesma]

he told me to f-off... even though i am friendly with him, he didn't appreciate the humor at all 🙁 --- he also feels that docs are idiots for putting up with the insurance crap, and that if docs just stood their ground, that we wouldn't be in this situation...

 

[Kphrogg]

he told me to f-off... even though i am friendly with him, he didn't appreciate the humor at all 🙁 --- he also feels that docs are idiots for putting up with the insurance crap, and that if docs just stood their ground, that we wouldn't be in this situation...

Yeah, that is definitely the personal injury perspective. The trial lawyers lobbies really drill that into their members, i.e., "it's not your fault that doctors are getting hosed, it's the insurance companies taking advantage." While there is some truth to insurance companies taking doctors for a ride, it is deliberate ignorance on the part of a lot of PI attorneys to think that they aren't playing a role.