Dealing with being disrespected by higher ups

[1Path]

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Now if med school were the military, the obvious answer is that you simply suck it up. And when I look back on my undergrad days from 20 years ago, I realized that mainly out of fear of being failed, people in positions of power said/did things to me that I wouldn't think of tolerating today. I quickly realized that once people start to mistreat you, that's what they'll continue to do.

But this med school thing is different primarily because of the "ego's" involved. Still, I can't imagine too many serious nontrads tolerating much to become an MD, but then again I'm not sure. I'm reminded of an MD/PhD friend who was pretty clear that the reason she did average in 3rd year was because she never tolerated higher ups yelling and screaming at her, calling here derogatory names ect, things they seemed to do on the regular with the other, mainly traditional students. Going back even further than that, I recall my mother who is a retired Nurse, telling me the story when she was in nursing school of being cracked on the wrist by an surgeon when she didn't pass an instrument to him fast enough.

So I'm curious, how do other over 30 nontrads deal with this or do you find it generally not a issue?

 

[Law2Doc]

Still, I can't imagine too many serious nontrads tolerating much to become an MD, but then again I'm not sure.

Actually, I think most nontrads go into this expected to be treated pretty much the same as every other med student/resident and so on. No special treatment -- if there's abuse to be had you suck it up and take your fair share. While you won't likely get hit, and most people won't curse at you without cause, expect to be pimped mercilessly just like everyone else at your stage of education. The difference for many of us is that we have worked with and for people in the past (some more easy going than others) so we perhaps have some skills in working with difficult people, and in defusing bad situations. At any rate it is naive to think you are going to be treated better because you are a nontrad, or that you will have to tolerate less. You may be starting this path at a different stage in life but the path is still the same. It's possible that some residents/attendings may be uncomfortable yelling at someone their age or older but I wouldn't bet on that.

 

[1Path]

Actually, I think most nontrads go into this expected to be treated pretty much the same as every other med student/resident and so on. No special treatment -- if there's abuse to be had you suck it up and take your fair share. ....At any rate it is naive to think you are going to be treated better because you are a nontrad, or that you will have to tolerate less. You may be starting this path at a different stage in life but the path is still the same. It's possible that some residents/attendings may be uncomfortable yelling at someone their age or older but I wouldn't bet on that.

I'm not sure where you're coming from with the reference to expecting to be treated "better" than anyone else. Respect means respect not "better" treatment. 😕

I also think everyone expects to be pimped especially if you've worked a real job before. Gee, something is telling me that either I worded this question the wrong way.

 

[Law2Doc]

I'm not sure where you're coming from with the reference to expecting to be treated "better" than anyone else. Respect means respect not "better" treatment. 😕

I also think everyone expects to be pimped especially if you've worked a real job before. Gee, something is telling me that either I worded this question the wrong way.

Well, I think your notion that nontrads are going to tolerate less disrespect than trads ( "I can't imagine too many serious nontrads tolerating much to become an MD") encompasses an expectation of being treated better, since everyone will put up with a lot of crap on this road. But you don't really get to decide what kind of treatment you will stand for and expect the world to abide. Not everybody is going to be happy you are there and eager to teach you. Malignant programs and personalities will be equally malignant to trads and nontrads. Hopefully we won't come across too many.

 

[Beau Geste]

Law2Doc - are you a med student, resident, or post-residency physician?

I just realized I have no idea where you are in the "medical" process!

 

[RxnMan]

I'm not 30, but I'll tell you that I've come up against this already a few times. Frequently I'll get emails and whatnot from professors, written in as if they were speaking to children. Granted, many traditional students experience a prolonged adolescence because they've never been outside the ivory tower, but it is irritating being painted with the same brush. I suck it up.

On a one-on-one level, most people treat you as you wish/expect to be treated (as shown in how you treat others), and enthusiasm for the work paired with realistic expectations (you will be pimped) make things go easier.

 

[t-funk]

I don't think you worded your question poorly. I am also very nervous about this bc I have heard some horror stories about the way residents are treated. Although I am not 30 yet, I will be about 33-34 by the time residency hits and I know that I do not tolerate abusive situations, no matter how subtle they are. I do believe it is reasonable to assume that there will be cursing and derogatory treatment as I worked for a pharmaceutical company right out of undergrad for 3 years and there was daily yelling and screaming and cursing at lower down people by the scientific services. Even if those higher ups were later proven to be incorrect, they never apologized. It was a very abusive environment and I took it for over 3 years. I can't imagine that medicine would be that different but at that point in my life, I don't think I would be willing to take the abuse again.

I also do not think it is about being better than the traditional students, but oftentimes traditional students are willing to put up with just about anything. I even see this in my classes. After being in graduate classes for 3 years and having been treated more like an equal to the professor and then going back to undergraduate classes to finish up pre-reqs, it was just different. The 20 year olds seemed almost scared to ask questions, to talk during class, or to question something the professor or TA had said. These are all thing expected of you during graduate school but shunned in undergrad.

These are all the reasons why I am going to try to find the coolest, most laid back residency that I can. I do expect to be 'pimped out' if that is the correct term although I think that term is derogatory in and of itself and should bring on an immediate negative response. However, I do expect to work my butt off in residency but that is completely different from being mistreated, something I do not believe I will tolerate easily.

As a side note, I also believe that another reason why I would never put up with this type of mistreatment is bc you would never catch me in million years mistreating, looking down on, or even yelling at another person. I treat everyone with respect no matter what position I hold. A lot of people who are willing to put up with abuse, from my experience, are the types who dream of one day being in the position of being the head-honcho who mistreats others. I believe that is the main reson why this type of stuff continues. Hopefully, residency will not be as bad as I have heard bc, I too, will have a difficult time of putting up with mistreatment.

 

[RxnMan]

...These are all the reasons why I am going to try to find the coolest, most laid back residency that I can. I do expect to be 'pimped out'...However, I do expect to work my butt off in residency but that is completely different from being mistreated, something I do not believe I will tolerate easily...I treat everyone with respect no matter what position I hold...

*cough* EM *cough*

 

[Law2Doc]

I do expect to be 'pimped out' if that is the correct term

Just "pimped". No "out".🙂
ie. When someone more senior than you asks you questions mercilessly (until you are forced to concede your ignorance) you are being "pimped". The person doing the asking is "pimping" you. It's a form of socratic method teaching.

 

[1Path]

I don't think you worded your question poorly. I am also very nervous about this bc I have heard some horror stories about the way residents are treated. Although I am not 30 yet, I will be about 33-34 by the time residency hits and I know that I do not tolerate abusive situations, no matter how subtle they are. I do believe it is reasonable to assume that there will be cursing and derogatory treatment as I worked for a pharmaceutical company right out of undergrad for 3 years and there was daily yelling and screaming and cursing at lower down people by the scientific services. Even if those higher ups were later proven to be incorrect, they never apologized. It was a very abusive environment and I took it for over 3 years. I can't imagine that medicine would be that different but at that point in my life, I don't think I would be willing to take the abuse again.........................As a side note, I also believe that another reason why I would never put up with this type of mistreatment is bc you would never catch me in million years mistreating, looking down on, or even yelling at another person. I treat everyone with respect no matter what position I hold. A lot of people who are willing to put up with abuse, from my experience, are the types who dream of one day being in the position of being the head-honcho who mistreats others. I believe that is the main reson why this type of stuff continues. Hopefully, residency will not be as bad as I have heard bc, I too, will have a difficult time of putting up with mistreatment.

Thank you, this is pretty much what I was trying to say!👍

As for pimping, I rather enjoy being pimped since it's usually an opportunity for me to dispell any myths folks have about my academic acumen!

 

[1Path]

Not everybody is going to be happy you are there and eager to teach you. Malignant programs and personalities will be equally malignant to trads and nontrads. Hopefully we won't come across too many.

As a minority woman and I'm pretty sure I'm not alone in feeling this way, I'm quite used to people not being happy to see my face .😎 But this is different that what I'm referring too in starting this thread.

 

[t-funk]

Thanks Law2Doc. That makes more sense and I rather enjoy being pimped also. 😉

*cough* EM *cough*

EM is definately near the top of my list, if not the top.

 

[gotmeds?]

I'm not sure where you're coming from with the reference to expecting to be treated "better" than anyone else. Respect means respect not "better" treatment. 😕

I also think everyone expects to be pimped especially if you've worked a real job before. Gee, something is telling me that either I worded this question the wrong way.

Since when are med students (of any age) treated with respect?

 

[1Path]

Since when are med students (of any age) treated with respect?

I guess that depends on what you think respect is. I see repect of med students all the time. But it would seem that those freshly minted MD's between the ages of say 25-30 are trying to make up for something more than the older new MD's.

 

[DrMidlife]

The real world of engineering that I come from is full of bullies and brats who never grew up. The last place I worked, the lead engineer turned every meeting into "you people listen while I rant (and spit) about everything that's wrong with you." You could cut his unmanaged anger with a knife and fork.

This lead engineer, who shames his mother every time he opens his mouth, played a sizeable role in my decision to pursue medicine. There are a**holes in power in every job, and probably more a**holes in medicine than any other field. Given that I'm going to have to work with a**holes, I at least want to be doing a job that matters. So this particular a**hole helped me figure out my a**hole management life plan.

I'm expecting to feel oh so very ordinary for another 8-10 years. My professional capabilities, for which I've been respected and paid and admired and revered and all that, are on hold. Every book I've read (about 20 now) about rotations and residency indicate that it would be in my best interest to check my ego at the door.

When (not if) I'm shredded by a resident et al, 99.5% of the time it's mine to endure. The odds of my superior being interested in my protest, or my correction, of his/her behavior are less than 0.5%. 0.5% of the time I'll be able to creatively respond in a way that doesn't suck any more energy out of the room or make things worse.

It's a sandbox. Bullies thrive. We don't vote.

 

[1Path]

So this particular a**hole helped me figure out my a**hole management life plan..

Mine has recently been very well updated!

It's a sandbox. Bullies thrive. We don't vote.

Yeah, well even bullies have to go to the bathroom. And when they do........................it's essentially there word against my look of "I have absolutely no idea what she/he is talking about"!😉 😀

 

[Law2Doc]

When (not if) I'm shredded by a resident et al, 99.5% of the time it's mine to endure. ...

It's a sandbox. Bullies thrive. We don't vote.

Agreed. Keep your need for respect in your back pocket. In a few years you can dust it off. This is to some extent a hazing ritual -- all professions have them. Part of the reason nontrads are actually liked by some employers is that they don't show up with any air of entitlement -- they know how the game is played and their place in it.

 

[1Path]

Agreed. Keep your need for respect in your back pocket. In a few years you can dust it off.........................Part of the reason nontrads are actually liked by some employers is that they don't show up with any air of entitlement -- they know how the game is played and their place in it.

I thought it might be interesting to share a little of what the impetus was for this thread in the first place. My current research advisor and soon to be former research advisor, ordered me to go into a patient database that I have absolutely NO authorization to access, hence I'm ain't doing it and I made that clear. Yet the traditional students I work with and those before me, seemed perfectly OK with breaking countless numbers of FEDERAL laws regarding patient confidentiality/information.

In my mind, a person has absolutely no respect for you if they're willing to demand that you risk your career (can you imagine having to explain in a med school interview why you violated ethcial/HIPPA laws?)to help thier research study. It's hard to believe that anyone who's had a real life expereince doing it although DH who does network security for the feds, tells me differently. But I can't help it, I come from a generation of folks with cahones and ethics, so shoot me!🙄

Now I'll admit to never in my entire career having "kept company" with such a large group of what I call "kiss a$$es" just to 1) get into med school 2) Make good grades in med school 3) get into a good residency program, and I've worked in big pharma. So I'm just left wondering, dam, what happend to the good ol' 80's?? In other words I'm no ones Scooter Libby aka "b&^Ch!

 

[Law2Doc]

In other words I'm no one's ... "b&^Ch!

You are in for a rough road. As a med student you are pretty much everyones' in the hospital's b!tch. As a resident you will be the attendings' b!tch. And so on. Such is life in a hierarchical profession. To a large extent it's a meritocracy and for quite a few years you will know less than everyone you see. It's starting to sound like you are going to be pretty miserable on this path, and don't really know how good you apparently had it in your prior career. You won't be asked to break laws but maybe quite a lot of things you'd enjoy less. It's really not a matter of respect, a$$kissing or whatever. It's doing what is expected to earn your chops.

You depend on evaluations of your superiors throughout this game and so you will do what they expect of you or risk closing doors for yourself. Same thing happens in law and countless other fields. And you will be in the same boat as the traditional med students, regardless of how obsequious you find them. The system is not going to change because one person like yourself doesn't like it, or feels they deserve more respect. S%*t runs downhill and in medicine you start out deep at the bottom.

 

[RxnMan]

1Path, aren't you interested in pathology? I haven't done a ton of research on the field, but I've never heard of a malignant pathologist (meaning, I'm sure they exist, but are a small fraction of the total). And it's a pretty sweet residency - plenty of time off of the job, so even if you're working under a crummy attending, you've got a good amount of time off, and most rotations are usually only a month long anyways.

The same goes for med school; a few rotations will suck, but they'll all be only a month long or so. So I don't think you have a thing to be worried about. Heck, we'll both probably be so busy we won't know a year has passed, and then it'll be fourth year, i.e., electives and vacation time.

 

[1Path]

You are in for a rough road. .

I serioulsy doubt the road will be rougher but I won't quote my personal statement for proof. Let's just say that I couldn't have made it this far being who/what I am with very few financial resources and still managing to age well 😉 Then again, some people just like it "rough"!😉

You won't be asked to break laws but maybe quite a lot of things you'd enjoy less. It's really not a matter of respect, a$$kissing or whatever. It's doing what is expected to earn your chops.

Are you sure I won't be asked to break the law because that's exactly what I thought right before I WAS asked. One thing is for sure after talking with the many relatives I have who work in healthcare in a variety of differnet positions and levels. Don't assume the people in charge won't gladly put YOUR a$$ on the line to "get the job done".

As a med student you are pretty much everyones' in the hospital's b!tch. As a resident you will be the attendings' b!tch. And so on..

An important distinction needs to be made here. There's b*&^ches and scooter libby b*#ches, I said I don't do the Scooter Libby type of b*@ches, which to me means do someone elses dirty work (access patient info illegally) then take the fall while they claim to be innocent.

You depend on evaluations of your superiors throughout this game and so you will do what they expect of you or risk closing doors for yourself..

Do you really think that being disrespected is the same as doing what they expect? Those are two different things IMHO. There's no doubt that by refusing to do something illegal I've closed doors but that's a risk I'm more than willing to take. Others may think differently, but as a minority I wouldn't dare presume that anyone would be willing to listen to my explination as to why I broke the law. And I don't need the Genarlow Wilson case as proof.

As for likeing the system, those are YOUR words Counselor, not mine. I don't "care" enough about da "system" or da "man" or anything else relating to medical education to label it anything. It simply is a medical education, some aspects of which I'm enjoying quite immensely. But then there's always 3rd year.................................................................

 

[1Path]

1Path, aren't you interested in pathology? I haven't done a ton of research on the field, but I've never heard of a malignant pathologist (meaning, I'm sure they exist, but are a small fraction of the total). And it's a pretty sweet residency - plenty of time off of the job, so even if you're working under a crummy attending, you've got a good amount of time off, and most rotations are usually only a month long anyways.

Yes, I'm DEFINITELY heading toward pathology a position I changed for a minute when I started working with patients on a daily basis. Didn't take long for me to come back to the "dark side" though.

Truth be told, I have worked with a fairly malignant pathologist, but malignant is different from disrespectful. I observed people under this person getting grilled, even yelled at, but the Residents were able to dissipate the situation when being yelled at, maintain thier dignity, and move on to the next case. Everyone has a bad day right? Yeah that's cool, almost expected in dealing with human beings. But I think you're right in general though about pathologists and pathology. The yelling screaming types seem to make B-lines for surgical specialties!

Speaking of surgeons, when they called to the sign out room looking for results.........YIKES!😱 I think surgeons think they can yell at pathologists whenever they want. Now does anyone want to convince me that THAT isn't about respect ie the fact that Pathologists are generally considerd to be underneath the totem pole?

 

[Nasrudin]

Cool thread.

I've wondered the same things about myself. As a union guy when we get disrespected by somebody in the hospital we just stop short of telling them to go F^ck themselves--not in front of patients of course--and report them to their superiors in the case of grossly unprofessional conduct, which happens quite often.

But the life of residents is different. Their world resembles the political position of migrant farm workers, in that they have no protection and everything to lose by rocking the boat. The hospital personnel structure is rife with abuse. Dr. Midlife has a great point I think--that managing the issue is the only strategy. Confrontation followed by negotiation presumes you have legs to stand on. But 1Path does have a good point in drawing a distinct line in covering your @ss.

If you ever wonder why nurses don't take verbal orders is because they are all to aware of what will go down when licenses and butts are on the line. The same should be the guideline for dealing with abusive physician superiors. If faced with that situation I can only hope to maintain the presence of mind to keep the needs of the patient, family, and staff prescient in my mind and to follow the proper channels for dealing with unprofessional behavior. I've got a short temper when it comes to abusive, aggressive personalities and I can only pray for protection so that I may deal with it effectively.

 

[FutureDoctorJ]

Now if med school were the military, the obvious answer is that you simply suck it up. And when I look back on my undergrad days from 20 years ago, I realized that mainly out of fear of being failed, people in positions of power said/did things to me that I wouldn't think of tolerating today. I quickly realized that once people start to mistreat you, that's what they'll continue to do.

But this med school thing is different primarily because of the "ego's" involved. Still, I can't imagine too many serious nontrads tolerating much to become an MD, but then again I'm not sure. I'm reminded of an MD/PhD friend who was pretty clear that the reason she did average in 3rd year was because she never tolerated higher ups yelling and screaming at her, calling here derogatory names ect, things they seemed to do on the regular with the other, mainly traditional students. Going back even further than that, I recall my mother who is a retired Nurse, telling me the story when she was in nursing school of being cracked on the wrist by an surgeon when she didn't pass an instrument to him fast enough.

So I'm curious, how do other over 30 nontrads deal with this or do you find it generally not a issue?

Very simple, those who want respect, give respect....Aloha from Hawaii!!

 

[Law2Doc]

But the life of residents is different. Their world resembles the political position of migrant farm workers, in that they have no protection and everything to lose by rocking the boat.

That's all I'm saying. (And med students are even worse off than residents as they know less). You don't need to be concerned about being asked to break the law, but if, for instance, somebody decides you should be spending the night doing stool guaiac tests on all the team's patients, that's what you are going to be doing, with a smile, nontrad or not.

 

[Nasrudin]

That's all I'm saying. (And med students are even worse off than residents as they know less). You don't need to be concerned about being asked to break the law, but if, for instance, somebody decides you should be spending the night doing stool guaiac tests on all the team's patients, that's what you are going to be doing, with a smile, nontrad or not.

Yep. That's true. I actually feel more equipped to eat crow than when I as younger.

 

[1Path]

..... somebody decides you should be spending the night doing stool guaiac tests on all the team's patients, that's what you are going to be doing, with a smile, nontrad or not.

This isn't disrespect, this is life! Besides, being the "half-full" kinda gal I am, I'm likely to find a 1 million dollar scratch off lottery ticket in the hospital parking the morning after such a shift!

 

[cfdavid]

Yes, I'm DEFINITELY heading toward pathology a position I changed for a minute when I started working with patients on a daily basis. Didn't take long for me to come back to the "dark side" though.

Truth be told, I have worked with a fairly malignant pathologist, but malignant is different from disrespectful. I observed people under this person getting grilled, even yelled at, but the Residents were able to dissipate the situation when being yelled at, maintain thier dignity, and move on to the next case. Everyone has a bad day right? Yeah that's cool, almost expected in dealing with human beings. But I think you're right in general though about pathologists and pathology. The yelling screaming types seem to make B-lines for surgical specialties!

Speaking of surgeons, when they called to the sign out room looking for results.........YIKES!😱 I think surgeons think they can yell at pathologists whenever they want. Now does anyone want to convince me that THAT isn't about respect ie the fact that Pathologists are generally considerd to be underneath the totem pole?

Don't feel bad. I spend a lot of time over in the anesthesiology forum, and I know that some of those guys/gals have been on the receiving end of irrate surgeons at times.

Whenever you're in a service role (anes, path, rads etc.) to other professions, you're more vulnerable to the unprofessionalism of those you "serve".... It's just part of it, I think.

 

[budhak0n]

Now if med school were the military, the obvious answer is that you simply suck it up. And when I look back on my undergrad days from 20 years ago, I realized that mainly out of fear of being failed, people in positions of power said/did things to me that I wouldn't think of tolerating today. I quickly realized that once people start to mistreat you, that's what they'll continue to do.

But this med school thing is different primarily because of the "ego's" involved. Still, I can't imagine too many serious nontrads tolerating much to become an MD, but then again I'm not sure. I'm reminded of an MD/PhD friend who was pretty clear that the reason she did average in 3rd year was because she never tolerated higher ups yelling and screaming at her, calling here derogatory names ect, things they seemed to do on the regular with the other, mainly traditional students. Going back even further than that, I recall my mother who is a retired Nurse, telling me the story when she was in nursing school of being cracked on the wrist by an surgeon when she didn't pass an instrument to him fast enough.

So I'm curious, how do other over 30 nontrads deal with this or do you find it generally not a issue?

I'm not exactly sure if you are expressing feelings of "disrespect" or perhaps you may not be receiving what you feel would be a level of "equal" respect. If someone is behaving Inappropriately such as being cruel and mocking or even physical violence... then this is disrespect and depending on the level... sure it can be a problem but people you will meet are certainly not without faults.

If what you believe you should receive is some sort of "equal" respect and recognition to your "higher-ups" well it's obvious in most situations until you have earned a place in any program whereby you stand on an equal plane with your colleagues... you shouldn't expect any "respect" whatsoever.

 

[Doctor Bagel]

So why don't people in the medical community talk about this type of abuse when they talk about "professionalism" instead of focusing on less important things like class attendance policies and dress codes? My school has lots of talk about "professionalism" and none of it seems to be directed at actually treating anyone with respect. I'm guessing that's the norm.

The good news is that the first two years gives you ample time to do your own thing and ignore the jerks. I'm definitely worried about 3rd year, though. I guess I'm lucky in that I really didn't encounter any major malignant personalities in my time in corporate America. Yelling was not tolerated and just not done in my workplace, and I always had bosses who were willing to back me up. I can't say that I wish that I worked in a more toxic environment, but I know my skin hasn't been toughened up yet. So it'll suck. 😱

Now I did deal with a lot of a&&hole customers, so I guess I'm ready for the rude patients. Rude bosses, though, will be a whole new thing. For the rude patients (and probably for the rude bosses), you feel a lot better when you realize it's all their issues and that they're probably miserable most of the time.

 

[RxnMan]

...Now I did deal with a lot of a&&hole customers, so I guess I'm ready for the rude patients. Rude bosses, though, will be a whole new thing. For the rude patients (and probably for the rude bosses), you feel a lot better when you realize it's all their issues and that they're probably miserable most of the time.

I agree. I used to do shifts at an urban ED and I saw a lot of usual crazy stuff - belligerent drunks, literally crazy people, desperate people, and lots of screaming kids. I even had my life threatened once. For me, the key in dealing with upset patients is understanding that most of them are incredibly scared, and they use anger to take back some control of the situation. Made things go much easier for me. I also think drunks are funny.

I believe the key in dealing with jerk attendings is "this too will pass"

 

[budhak0n]

I thought it might be interesting to share a little of what the impetus was for this thread in the first place. My current research advisor and soon to be former research advisor, ordered me to go into a patient database that I have absolutely NO authorization to access, hence I'm ain't doing it and I made that clear. Yet the traditional students I work with and those before me, seemed perfectly OK with breaking countless numbers of FEDERAL laws regarding patient confidentiality/information.

In my mind, a person has absolutely no respect for you if they're willing to demand that you risk your career (can you imagine having to explain in a med school interview why you violated ethcial/HIPPA laws?)to help thier research study. It's hard to believe that anyone who's had a real life expereince doing it although DH who does network security for the feds, tells me differently. But I can't help it, I come from a generation of folks with cahones and ethics, so shoot me!🙄

Now I'll admit to never in my entire career having "kept company" with such a large group of what I call "kiss a$$es" just to 1) get into med school 2) Make good grades in med school 3) get into a good residency program, and I've worked in big pharma. So I'm just left wondering, dam, what happend to the good ol' 80's?? In other words I'm no ones Scooter Libby aka "b&^Ch!

Alright first question, do you have a legal background?

Second ? , have you communicated your concerns to the advisor? It might be nice to point out that the law is HIPAA... but regardless whereever you may be working will often have counsel employed with whom you can confer to voice your concern prior to accessing the data.

Does the data specifically identify the patient?

All I'm saying is, and I'm not making a judgment as to whether a violation could have or did occur... that it's usually better NOT to be your own judge, jury and executioner.

Humans are fallible beings. Often people will not seek the advice of others when faced with an ethical challenge and often they do not realize that steps have been taken prior to their involvement to ensure compliance and that there is an actual practicioner to whom they can go to voice their concerns.

Best of luck.

 

[1Path]

All I'm saying is, and I'm not making a judgment as to whether a violation could have or did occur... that it's usually better NOT to be your own judge, jury and executioner..

I'm old school and there's a saying that if you're doing something that doesn't quite jive with your morals and values then don't do it. Now like i said before, I completely recognize that medicine is full of on one end peope with large egos and on the other folks willing to %$*@ (fill in your favorite 4 letter word) the buttocks of anyone they think can get them ahead. So this isn't about being my own "judge, jury and executioner" the context of which seems highly out of context for this discussion. I'd gather that people who are older, late 20's and up, who have worked a "real" jobs know exactly where I'm coming from.

Often people will not seek the advice of others when faced with an ethical challenge and often they do not realize that steps have been taken prior to their involvement to ensure compliance and that there is an actual practicioner to whom they can go to voice their concerns

This thread wasn't about "advice" as I've been my own "advisor" for a good portion of my 40 years. It's about how other nontrads (people who've had jobs with benefits, responsbilities outside their own hides, ect not folks 3 years out of college who are still on Daddy's payroll) deal with these issues because they ARE real especially in medicine. Finally, the "humans are fallible" comment is IMHO as naive and idealistic as it is rhetorical and highly unlikely to be an acceptable explination for breaking the law.

 

[budhak0n]

I'm old school and there's a saying that if you're doing something that doesn't quite jive with your morals and values then don't do it. Now like i said before, I completely recognize that medicine is full of on one end peope with large egos and on the other folks willing to %$*@ (fill in your favorite 4 letter word) the buttocks of anyone they think can get them ahead. So this isn't about being my own "judge, jury and executioner" the context of which seems highly out of context for this discussion. I'd gather that people who are older, late 20's and up, who have worked a "real" jobs know exactly where I'm coming from.
This thread wasn't about "advice" as I've been my own "advisor" for a good portion of my 40 years. It's about how other nontrads (people who've had jobs with benefits, responsbilities outside their own hides, ect not folks 3 years out of college who are still on Daddy's payroll) deal with these issues because they ARE real especially in medicine. Finally, the "humans are fallible" comment is IMHO as naive and idealistic as it is rhetorical and highly unlikely to be an acceptable explination for breaking the law.

I was just recommending that you seek outside guidance. I'm like yourself in "some" ways and discussing this with someone who is skilled in this area may help to diffuse some of the personal anger you are feeling towards the request. Oh btw I'm well beyond street lawyer defense. If you want to send some Yale or even international law barrister's after your intellectual quest I'm all game.

My "advice" altho with a tweak is sensible.

Seek somebody out. there are people within the organizational structure with real life issues all the time. It may help.

 

[budhak0n]

Oh and being naive is not a defense to breaking the law. Believing you are qualified to interpret HIPAA, when you don't even spell it properly is utterly naive.

Seriously don't attack ... seek someone out who is there for your concerns. I swear to whatever higher power you acknowledge that they exist.

It may help... all I can offer

 

[LifetimeDoc]

Believing you are qualified to interpret HIPAA, when you don't even spell it properly is utterly naive.

I always try to spell it HIPPA, when in fact it's HIPAA...probably because i always think of the word "hippo". However, I'm always fishing out photocopies of SS cards/Driver's Licenses/Patient Labels out of the regular trash at the ED I volunteer at. I think many people don't really think about it, even if they can spell it.

 

[budhak0n]

Oh and in case you hadn't noticed when I stated that Humans are fallible... I was equally referring to both parties in the controversy at hand.

It may turn out that your advisor was in error. It may alternatively turn out that you sir are in error. Something you should consider.

Not knowing specific facts nor having any true interest, I can't say or even offer an "educated" guess.

 

[budhak0n]

I know the HIPPA thing is common .. it's just if you're going to flame in anger... sometimes the other party is sitting there with a smile...

We deal with anger all the time.... sheeesh go check my threads.. lol

I'm as much a violator as anyone and I misspell all the time lol....

But the basics I'm going back to over and over are that there are either faculty or research scientists or even professional counsel in many organizations (Even ones where you are Not compensated for your effort) who are specifically assigned to "HIPAA" compliance.

That's usually the best place to start unless you are already laying some type of groundwork for a good ole whistleblower lol.

Heck if you run into the guy who's like Hipaa? what's that ? Aren't they at Disney World? Then you can at least document to whatever agency you seek help from that you first followed proper channels prior to flying off the handle.

This is just my two cents but it looks as if what is occurring is the "transformation" of a difference of opinion into what the poster perceives to be a life or death battle between two people's careers... Or at least that seems to be the intent of the initial post. Which to me seemed a bit " over the top" and I think we all realize, the poster included, that it's a bit "excessive" <g>

Hey who knows maybe you're an off with their Heads type of audience... Just seemed excessive or else you'd never hear from me.. hehehe...

 

[budhak0n]

I always try to spell it HIPPA, when in fact it's HIPAA...probably because i always think of the word "hippo". However, I'm always fishing out photocopies of SS cards/Driver's Licenses/Patient Labels out of the regular trash at the ED I volunteer at. I think many people don't really think about it, even if they can spell it.

Hey Doc... MAJOR NO NO... Stop doing that... I know the temptation is there.. and for the most part you'll be fine but it only takes one Wacked out situation. Much better to err on the side of caution unless you feel that you can definitively represent to any interested party outside of the ED that there was clear and convincing evidence that the patients IMMEDIATE health and well being was at stake. It only takes one wacked out situation and it is so much better to err on the side of caution.

When I was doing my Phlebotomy certification, as a STUDENT, there were plenty of people just lurking looking for something as simple as that to make a HUGE issue out of it. It's just best policy to strictly adhere.. Once that stuff's in the receptacle. ( It should be covered without access actually) It should stay there.

but like everything I write, it's just my two cents ... you are free to do what you wish... spit at your screens, print it and use it as scott tissue, make paper airplanes and float it down twelve stories then smash it with an oversized gourd...

Whatever makes ya happy.

 

[Law2Doc]

... Now like i said before, I completely recognize that medicine is full of on one end peope with large egos and on the other folks willing to %$*@ (fill in your favorite 4 letter word) the buttocks of anyone they think can get them ahead.
...
This thread wasn't about "advice" as I've been my own "advisor" for a good portion of my 40 years. It's about how other nontrads (people who've had jobs with benefits, responsbilities outside their own hides, ect not folks 3 years out of college who are still on Daddy's payroll) deal with these issues because they ARE real especially in medicine.

I continue to think you are mixing and matching two very unrelated issues. One is your former employer who allegedly asked you to break the law, in which case I think all of us agree you don't need to go down that road. (Regardless of whether you were a trad or nontrad).

The other is whether you are going to need to play the game and kowtow to folks on the wards who are going to tell you to eat and shovel $#%%, and perhaps be verbally abusive when you do so. On this latter point, I think you are absolutely in the same boat as the traditionals and shouldn't expect your age to dictate any additional modicum of (self) respect. If anything, some nontrads tend to be less appalled by such treatment because they haven't just come out of a life of academics where everybody told them they were great. There was an article I posted a few years back which indicated how employers loved nontrads as they weren't so full of themselves and didn't show up with that "air of entitlement".

From your posts (esp the not "willing to %$*@... the buttocks", "I can't imagine too many serious nontrads tolerating much" type references) I'm a bit worried you have more in common with the unrealistic respect expectations of the traditionals than you really want to. Sorry to break it to you, but you are going to start out at the bottom, knowing nothing and being treated like crap by anyone with a few months more seniority. And yes, as you suggested in your initial post, if you "never tolerate higher ups yelling and screaming at [you]", you probably won't get great grades/evaluations. You have to earn respect, you cannot demand it. And by the time you earn it on this path, you will have your own crop of screw ups to yell at.

 

[LifetimeDoc]

Hey Doc... MAJOR NO NO... Stop doing that... I know the temptation is there.. and for the most part you'll be fine but it only takes one Wacked out situation. Much better to err on the side of caution unless you feel that you can definitively represent to any interested party outside of the ED that there was clear and convincing evidence that the patients IMMEDIATE health and well being was at stake. It only takes one wacked out situation and it is so much better to err on the side of caution.

When I was doing my Phlebotomy certification, as a STUDENT, there were plenty of people just lurking looking for something as simple as that to make a HUGE issue out of it. It's just best policy to strictly adhere.. Once that stuff's in the receptacle. ( It should be covered without access actually) It should stay there.

but like everything I write, it's just my two cents ... you are free to do what you wish... spit at your screens, print it and use it as scott tissue, make paper airplanes and float it down twelve stories then smash it with an oversized gourd...

Whatever makes ya happy.

Actually you are wrong here and are making no sense at all. Since when is it a NO NO to correct a major violation of HIPAA? I fish them out and put them in the shredder box (which is locked) which is where they should go, and not into the regular trash. What you are saying to do is to mind my own business, when in fact our hospital's policy is to step in with these situations so the whole team doesn't go down because of somebody's mistakes.

 

[Quix]

From what I've seen, we're all going to be scut monkeys, regardless of age, education, or experience.

"The real world of engineering that I come from is full of bullies and brats who never grew up. The last place I worked, the lead engineer turned every meeting into "you people listen while I rant (and spit) about everything that's wrong with you." You could cut his unmanaged anger with a knife and fork.

This lead engineer, who shames his mother every time he opens his mouth, played a sizeable role in my decision to pursue medicine. There are a**holes in power in every job, and probably more a**holes in medicine than any other field. Given that I'm going to have to work with a**holes, I at least want to be doing a job that matters. So this particular a**hole helped me figure out my a**hole management life plan."

The best part is that this is the entirety of Midlife's AMCAS personal statement.

 

[budhak0n]

Actually you are wrong here and are making no sense at all. Since when is it a NO NO to correct a major violation of HIPAA? I fish them out and put them in the shredder box (which is locked) which is where they should go, and not into the regular trash. What you are saying to do is to mind my own business, when in fact our hospital's policy is to step in with these situations so the whole team doesn't go down because of somebody's mistakes.

Oh sorry my bad ... see I'm fallible tooo.. i thought you were saying you were fishing them out to use them in the ER ... i see you were fishing them out to correct anothers mistake... a noble act and basically if you consider my posts... the underlying theme ... when you find an improperly disposed of bracelet do you

a) place it in the proper receptacle OR:
b) threaten the nurse who allowed it to get there with revocation of her license and an eternity of FLAMES..

you're welcome to fill in your own C,D and E.. a perfect example of how incomplete INFORMATION can lead to incorrect deductions.

 

[MJB]

You can pimp without being disrespectful.

I would expect respect to given in return for my respect for them.



On a similar note, I got "office spaced" at my job...I only have 5 days left, but my manager thought it would be a good idea to have my replacement go ahead and take my desk....and put me in a kiosk in the hall.

They can kiss my ass if they think I'm doing anything else before I leave. Total disrespect.

 

[MJB]

And by the time you earn it on this path, you will have your own crop of screw ups to yell at.

Likely the problem...it's a recurring problem...immature newb gets hazed...so he/she thinks it's their god given right to do the same to the next group of newbs.

Pretty adolescent if you ask me.

 

[1Path]

...

 

[1Path]

You can pimp without being disrespectful.

I would expect respect to given in return for my respect for them.



On a similar note, I got "office spaced" at my job...I only have 5 days left, but my manager thought it would be a good idea to have my replacement go ahead and take my desk....and put me in a kiosk in the hall.

They can kiss my ass if they think I'm doing anything else before I leave. Total disrespect.

I think we need too different threads here. One for the a$$ kissers of the world and another for those you have learned to "play the game" without wearing "brown" lipstick all the time.

@ Law2Doc, all I have to say is that after reading that last post, I have officially and permanently put you on my ignore list. There's just too bullsh%t in that post for me to respond to so I won't waste my time. 😉

@Buddha, You're obviously very young and/or inexperienced. I'd like for you to look back at this thread in say 10 or 15 years.

 

[1Path]

I@ Law2Doc, all I have to say is that after reading that last post, I have officially and permanently put you on my ignore list. There's just too bullsh%t in that post for me to respond to so I won't waste my time. 😉

Well ain't that a blip, mods/advisors can't be ignored! I guess reading those posts will be my daily foray into the illogical after my Medical Biochemistry lectures.

 

[Doctor Bagel]

@Buddha, You're obviously very young and/or inexperienced. I'd like for you to look back at this thread in say 10 or 15 years.

The thing to say is that that poster actually has a law degree, so he might know a little more about it than you think. I'm with him in doubting that you have any real understanding of any of the nuances of HIPAA. Knowing your limitations is a good thing.

Maybe your posts would be better received if you didn't resort to insults. Maybe your work relationships would be better, too. And where you're going to have trouble in med school if you ever wind up there (you're not even at the application stage yet, right?) is your blatant hostility to people younger than you. No, people in their 20s aren't more ethically challenged than people in your generation. Maybe you should try to relate to your younger coworkers instead of automatically feeling disdain for them.

 

[gotmeds?]

Oh, 1Path. I think you're going to have a very interesting third year of med school.