Dear future DO physicians

[imtheman25]

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A couple of days ago I suffered from a spontaneous pneumothorax, and was misdiagnosed by my doctor. It wasn't until the DO resident ordered an ultrasound (the attending didnt!!) that she saved my life. I have made disparaging remarks questioning the capabilities of DO and I want to formally apologize. My comments were ignorant and unjustified. False narratives perpetuated by the internet and peers have reinforced these false beliefs. As your future colleague and partner, I am very sorry.

 

[balston82]

Might be better served in the DO forum...

 

[takeurmeds02]

Is this a real post? LOL

 

[statlin98]

Given that residency and not medical school is where doctors truly become doctors it makes absolutely no sense why anyone would think DO's are inferior. Especially after the merger.

 

[Redpancreas]

So I actually feel kind of guilty of it too lately. The only thing I am really annoyed by is that DOs seem entitled to a level playing field for residency selection when their standards are clearly lower. I don't think they realize there's even discrimination for MDs from lesser known schools. Once I see the DO in the white coat as my colleague, they have my complete attention and respect. I feel like there's a lot of DO hate particularly in IM recently too if you read the Reddit Spreadsheet for applicants.

 

[MrChance2]

.

 

[statlin98]

So I actually feel kind of guilty of it too lately. The only thing I am really annoyed by is that DOs seem entitled to a level playing field for residency selection when their standards are clearly lower. I don't think they realize there's even discrimination for MDs from lesser known schools. Once I see the DO in the white coat as my colleague, they have my complete attention and respect. I feel like there's a lot of DO hate particularly in IM recently too if you read the Reddit Spreadsheet for applicants.

It's not a sense of entitlement. If you look at it objectively it's silly that a superstar DO applicant with 250+ boards, pubs, honors, etc. has less residency options than a far inferior MD applicant because they couldn't make it into an MD school, whose admissions standards are surely higher but are biased heavily on extremely fickle standards such as uGPA. uGPA can be influenced by a myriad of factors - grade inflation/deflation, family/personal issues, majors, immaturity, having to work while in school to support a family/loan payments...

 

[deleted407021]

As you’re a future colleague of mine, I’m glad you’ve had a change of heart in the more rational and realistic direction. Also glad you’re ok

What did they misdiagnose it as btw?? Even as an M2 I feel somewhat confident I could dx a spontaneous pneumothorax.

 

[Lawpy]

It's not a sense of entitlement. If you look at it objectively it's silly that a superstar DO applicant with 250+ boards, pubs, honors, etc. has less residency options than a far inferior MD applicant because they couldn't make it into an MD school, whose admissions standards are surely higher but are biased heavily on extremely fickle standards such as uGPA. uGPA can be influenced by a myriad of factors - grade inflation/deflation, family/personal issues, majors, having to work while in school to support a family/loan payments...

I think a better comparison is between a superstar DO applicant and superstar MD applicant. Or between a below average MD applicant and below average DO applicant. In both cases, the MD applicant always wins.

Comparing between superstar DO applicant whose only flaw was going DO and below average MD applicant with too many flaws involves making too many assumptions and speculations that it's impossible to conclusively say who performs better in the match.

 

[statlin98]

I think a better comparison is between a superstar DO applicant and superstar MD applicant. Or between a below average MD applicant and below average DO applicant. In both cases, the MD applicant always wins.

Comparing between superstar DO applicant whose only flaw was going DO and below average MD applicant with too many flaws involves making too many assumptions and speculations that it's impossible to conclusively say who performs better in the match.

Fair enough. The comparison I had in mind was more superstar DO vs average-slightly above average MD, where I feel the MD applicant wins most of the time.

 

[Rekt]

It's not a sense of entitlement. If you look at it objectively it's silly that a superstar DO applicant with 250+ boards, pubs, honors, etc. has less residency options than a far inferior MD applicant because they couldn't make it into an MD school, whose admissions standards are surely higher but are biased heavily on extremely fickle standards such as uGPA. uGPA can be influenced by a myriad of factors - grade inflation/deflation, family/personal issues, majors, having to work while in school to support a family/loan payments...

It's more about DO clinical rotations. I do agree that overall, DO rotations are inferior to MD rotations. There's just no question about it. But some people exaggerate how much better MD rotations are. I've been lucky enough to do some of my rotations alongside MDs at teaching hospitals, even for my cores. They do have didactics/lectures, grand rounds, M&M, etc that most DO students do not get, even my classmates at more inferior sites. I've participated in some of them and they're good, but not ground breaking and some of the lectures are barely passable. The hierarchy also hurts their learning. You're behind a lot of people a lot of the time and more of a fly on the wall than when I was on my "crappy" weeks/rotations. Most of my "DO rotations" I was given (probably too much) responsibility and felt that I learned quite a bit, but they also didn't waste anytime. I hear MD students complain about sitting around doing nothing for half the day. If I was done on any of rotations (pre-rounding, then rounding, no pending admits, no pending procedures/surgeries), then we were sent home with plenty of time to study. This wasn't the case on the MD side. I just felt like there was even more wasted time. Anyway, I'm not vouching that DO students are equal, we aren't and it's just reality, but the clerkship gap isn't that large.

But I will say we spend just as many hours balls deep in UWorld, Pathoma, FA, Sketchy, B&B, Casefiles, Blueprints, Step Up, OME, etc, whatever the flavor of the month is as everyone else.

 

[deleted407021]

Also, DO schools need to have the shelf exam count for clerkships. I've found one notable DO school that doesn't. If you also go to one, you should request NBME clerkship exams. I am all for getting the stronger DO schools converted to essentially MD schools.

For reference, mine does make shelf exams part of the process for H/P/F for rotations.

 

[IslandStyle808]

So I actually feel kind of guilty of it too lately. The only thing I am really annoyed by is that DOs seem entitled to a level playing field for residency selection when their standards are clearly lower. I don't think they realize there's even discrimination for MDs from lesser known schools. Once I see the DO in the white coat as my colleague, they have my complete attention and respect. I feel like there's a lot of DO hate particularly in IM recently too if you read the Reddit Spreadsheet for applicants.

We understand what you are saying has been said the same way for 8 years I have read this site. However, there are tons of nuances that some MD students don't understand about DO schools. Yes, it is true that overall standards for DOs schools is lower than MD school, more specifically clinical education. However, MD school are not that similar in there rotations and there a few MD school rotations that are mostly preceptor based. There are also some DO schools that have the vast majority of their rotations with residents. So there is an overlap with the quality level. There were some MD students who also argue that DO schools have worse medical students because they accept people with lower grades and lower MCAT scores. This doesn't speak as to why student from schools with 26 MCAT scores such as Morehouse are treated better. On the opposite side, there are now DO schools who bolster MCAT and GPAs similar to some MD schools. You may argue grade replacement, but that is gone...

We also understand the situation with lower tier MD schools (a few MD students are in denial of this bias happening, I've seen this also through the years). When you look at Harvards match list with all the MGH, BWH, Hopkin's etc. matches with the classes having a USMLE of 240, it can get nauseating (since you know these students are matching into top quality residencies with a < 240). And I'm pretty sure there are MD students from mid-tier schools actually have just as good research and experiences as the ones from top-tier schools, yet their not picked for top-tier residencies.

I think the point I'm trying to get at here is that these are all justifications used by people in positions of power to weed people out. There is some true to it, but not as much as they make it out to be. When a PD at a top program has all these impressive applicants, they will use whatever means to weed them out. Even if it means weeding people from out of non-US schools, DOs, or even low-tier MD schools with a simple filter on the ERAS program.

EDIT MADE

 

[Moose A Moose]

 

[jhamaican]

I would never want to be treated by a DO physician. Would definitely demand a real doctor. Lower standards, less competency, no thank you!

 

[Redpancreas]

We understand what you are saying has been said the same way for 8 years I have read this site. However, there are tons of nuances that some MD students don't understand about DO schools. Yes, it is true that overall standards for DOs schools is lower than MD school, more specifically clinical education. However, MD school are not that similar in there rotations and there a few MD school rotations that are mostly preceptor based. There are also some DO schools that have the vast majority of their rotations with residents. So there is an overlap with the quality level. There were some MD students who also argue that DO schools have worse medical students because they accept people with lower grades and lower MCAT scores. This doesn't speak as to why student from schools with 26 MCAT scores such as Morehouse are treated better. On the opposite side, there are now DO schools who bolster MCAT and GPAs similar to some MD schools. You may argue grade replacement, but that is gone...

We also understand the situation with lower tier MD schools (a few MD students are in denial of this bias happening, I've seen this also through the years). When you look at Harvards match list with all the MGH, BWH, Hopkin's etc. matches with the classes having a USMLE of 240, it can get nauseating (since you know these students are matching into top quality residencies with a < 240). And I'm pretty sure there are MD students from mid-tier schools actually have just as good research and experiences as the ones from top-tier schools, yet their not picked for top-tier residencies.

I think the point I'm trying to get at here is that these are all justifications used by people in positions of power to weed people out. There is some true to it, but not as much as they make it out to be. When a PD at a top program has all these impressive applicants, they will use whatever means to weed them out. Even if it means weeding people from out of non-US schools, DOs, or even low-tier MD schools with a simple filter on the ERAS program.

EDIT MADE

Thank you for saying all this. I am in agreement with pretty much everything you said. I'm going to leave it at this.

 

[longhaul3]

How did the first doctor miss a pneumothorax?

 

[CoomassieBlue57]

How did the first doctor miss a pneumothorax?

They didn't harness the power of A.T. Still's mind, body, spirit.

 

[IlDestriero]

Would definitely demand a real doctor. Lower standards, less competency, no thank you!

Or an NP, they’re good too!
Especially at Rite Aid, not those hacks at CVS!


--
Il Destriero

 

[DelayedGratification]

Things go undiagnosed or misdiagnosed in the ED all the time.....quite unfortunate.

OP, I am glad you had this epiphany that DO's are actually trained physicians.

So I actually feel kind of guilty of it too lately. The only thing I am really annoyed by is that DOs seem entitled to a level playing field for residency selection when their standards are clearly lower. I don't think they realize there's even discrimination for MDs from lesser known schools. Once I see the DO in the white coat as my colleague, they have my complete attention and respect. I feel like there's a lot of DO hate particularly in IM recently too if you read the Reddit Spreadsheet for applicants.

do you feel threatened by a level playing field? Why should undergraduate grades matter for residency?

 

[DelayedGratification]

I would never want to be treated by a DO physician. Would definitely demand a real doctor. Lower standards, less competency, no thank you!

Next in line will be an NP or PA. Good luck

 

[Psai]

Given that residency and not medical school is where doctors truly become doctors it makes absolutely no sense why anyone would think DO's are inferior. Especially after the merger.

Being a good doctor starts before medical school. The knowledge base in medical school matters as does your the effect your peers have on you. DO schools take worse students and provide worse education, sorry to burst your bubble broseph. I don't think any of the programs in my institution even interview them except for pm&r

 

[deleted407021]

Being a good doctor starts before medical school. The knowledge base in medical school matters as does your the effect your peers have on you. DO schools take worse students and provide worse education, sorry to burst your bubble broseph. I don't think any of the programs in my institution even interview them except for pm&r

Things were much nicer when you were on probation.

 

[ThreeCheers]

They didn't harness the power of A.T. Still's mind, body, spirit.

If that attending would have just checked for T2-T7 bogginess, OP could have been saved a lot of grief.

 

[rg2o3]

Given that residency and not medical school is where doctors truly become doctors it makes absolutely no sense why anyone would think DO's are inferior. Especially after the merger.

Getting annoyed. Honestly, I'm tired of being honest to the point where people attack me and I have to shoulder the burden of re-explaining years of common sense. Read the posts in the DO forum for more if you want. In short, they take worse students on average and do not have equivalent grading systems and rotations (again on average). Every admissions process takes recognition into account and its even done within MDs so I think that it's completely appropriate to not have a level playing field. I worked hard to retake the MCAT and improve 30+ percentile points, and maintain a GPA 0.4 higher than what I needed. I also love how someone pointed at 0.3 GPA as if that's nothing. If I wanted DO, I was in a program that would have allowed me to coast all of undergrad and and not even take the MCAT with a special waver and people like that are also applying this cycle and people like you are suggesting there should be a level playing field. That's why I believe what I believe. Also, it seems as if every DO student on this site thinks they are MD caliber and point to medical schools founded with specific mission statements that I wouldn't have gotten into as evidence. Sigh, #imtriggered

I guarantee that there are many DO students who have similar GPA and MCAT as you. I, for example, have an undergrad GPA that is extremely high and an MCAT in the 80th percentile and did not apply to a single MD school. I will never debate that MD schooling is not greater than DO schooling. However, I believe its really unfair to say that overall, DO's are incompetent in comparison to their MD colleagues.

 

[rg2o3]

I earned an MCAT in the 94th-96th percentile and even my average MCAT's higher than yours...just saying since you brought up the comparison. I never said DOs are incompetent and its not my fault you applied exclusively to less competitive schools. All I am saying is the fact that there is not a level playing field given not only the pre-admissions standards, but what I'm learning about rotations is justified.

Thats outstanding. I applaud that. However, I only used my examples since you decided to use yours. The point was making that there are many DO students who have the average MCAT and GPA scores of accepted MD students.

I can agree with you. I just think that its a bit childish to sit there and belittle the DO profession.

 

[Chibucks15]

I earned an MCAT in the 94th-96th percentile and even my average MCAT's higher than yours...just saying since you brought up the comparison. I never said DOs are incompetent and its not my fault you applied exclusively to less competitive schools. All I am saying is the fact that there is not a level playing field given not only the pre-admissions standards, but what I'm learning about rotations is justified.

Man when are they making you a statue? Hopefully soon. I was 90th percentile and I'm excited for my DO school. You have very condescending language for someone who doesn't think DOs are inferior. Just cool it bud

 

[sliceofbread136]

As you’re a future colleague of mine, I’m glad you’ve had a change of heart in the more rational and realistic direction. Also glad you’re ok

What did they misdiagnose it as btw?? Even as an M2 I feel somewhat confident I could dx a spontaneous pneumothorax.

Maybe a large or tension pneumo would be obvious, otherwise it often simply presents as unexplained chest pain and is frequently missed

 

[DelayedGratification]

Getting really annoyed. Honestly, I'm tired of being honest to the point where people attack me and I have to shoulder the burden of re-explaining years of common sense. Read the posts in the DO forum for more if you want. In short, they take worse students on average and do not have equivalent grading systems and rotations (again on average). Every admissions process takes recognition into account and its even done within MDs so I think that it's completely appropriate to not have a level playing field. I worked hard to retake the MCAT and improve 30+ percentile points, and maintain a GPA 0.4 higher than what I needed. I also love how someone pointed to 0.3 GPA as if that's nothing. If I wanted DO, I was in a program that would have allowed me to coast all of undergrad and and not even take the MCAT with a special waiver and people like that are also applying this cycle. Seems like you're at least 4 years away from where I am and maybe in that short amount of time DOs have exponentially increased their standards while MDs have stayed still. Even if that's the case, I'm judging based of what I felt and experienced when I was applying. That's why I believe what I believe. Also, it seems as if every DO student here thinks they are MD caliber and points to medical schools founded with special circumstances to justify their lower overall standards. Sigh, there's a reason this subject has been banned and the two groups have separate forums. #imtriggered

I am not understanding your point still. Yes recognition will still be taken into account, that is a natural part of the human decision making process. But to care about how GPA and MCAT standards makes no sense because in the end doesn't the USMLE level the playing field?

 

[rg2o3]

No one is belittling the DO profession. I am just saying that there should be no complaints when DO discrimination occurs and am getting tired of how many people have a problem with me saying that and falsely accuse me of taunting DOs. Wait till you hear what top tier MD applicants have to say about you guys in private.

Thats the difference I think bud. I don't need to reassure myself that I am doing well in life. It seems that all you care about is that reassurance. So honestly I could care less hat a top tier MD student says, or anyone really. I have friends who are MD students and would find how you act quite immature and comical.

So here ya go, I think you need this. Good job at being in MD school. Keep it up, you're doing great.

 

[sliceofbread136]

I guarantee that there are many DO students who have similar GPA and MCAT as you. I, for example, have an undergrad GPA that is extremely high and an MCAT in the 80th percentile and did not apply to a single MD school. I will never debate that MD schooling is not greater than DO schooling. However, I believe its really unfair to say that overall, DO's are incompetent in comparison to their MD colleagues.

How about saying as a whole mds are more competent than dos

 

[deleted407021]

No one is belittling the DO profession. I am just saying that there should be no complaints when DO discrimination occurs and am getting tired of how many people have a problem with me saying that and falsely accuse me of taunting DOs. Wait till you hear what top tier MD applicants have to say about you guys in private.

May I suggest you take a little break from the Internet, if it’s bothering you so much?

 

[deleted245139]

As a DO who's clinical faculty at a top 20 Allo med school, I'd welcome their comments...

 

[rg2o3]

How about saying as a whole mds are more competent than dos

LOL. Hmmm. We would need some form of base line comparison.

 

[DelayedGratification]

I earned an MCAT in the 94th-96th percentile...just saying since you brought up the comparison. I never said DOs are incompetent and its not my fault you applied exclusively to less competitive schools. All I am saying is the fact that there is not a level playing field given not only the pre-admissions standards, but what I'm learning about rotations is not the most unfair thing in 2017.

That is genuinely impressive, and with the correlation, I presume you have already or will in the future kill your licensing exams. I think you are getting too worked up about something that only residency directors can judge, and that is the quality of clinical education for MD and DO students. A school with a reputation for poor clinical education will inherently limit its student's match success, doesn't matter if the school is MD or DO.

 

[Psai]

Things were much nicer when you were on probation.

Sorry that you couldn't get into a better school but reality doesn't care about your feelings. Track matters. Name matters. Degree matters. Maybe you'll be able to stumble into a half decent program. Good luck!

 

[DelayedGratification]

How about saying as a whole mds are more competent than dos

So you're saying if a DO and a MD are completing the same residency side by side as colleagues, the MD will be a better physician just because of the MD after his name? Because that is the only way to compare "as a whole"

 

[sliceofbread136]

LOL. Hmmm. We would need some form of base line comparison.

I don’t know the logistics of how we would do it, but I’m pretty confident that on average the MDs would be better. By how much I don’t know. I’ve only had 2 do attendings to be honest, so my experience pool is small. one was great and one was terrible

 

[sliceofbread136]

So you're saying if a DO and a MD are completing the same residency side by side as colleagues, the MD will be a better physician just because of the MD after his name? Because that is the only way to compare "as a whole"

I’d be more interested in attendings actually

 

[deleted245139]

I’d be more interested in attendings actually

You'll find the lines even more blurred.
Attendings read threads like this and laugh

 

[Lawpy]

Program directors at competitive places are free to ignore DO applications if they want. At this stage, the competition essentially becomes a seller's market as program directors are faced with hundreds of competitive applications for only few residency spots. So program directors can ignore DO applications and just stick with MD applications. This is no different from top tier residency programs selecting heavily for graduates from top medical schools.

This is why where you went to school matters. This is also why I always recommend going US MD over US DO to avoid hamstringing yourself before starting school.

Complaining about DO discrimination is similar to complaining about prestige biases. Yes it's annoying but it's not surprising when facing intense competition and cognitive biases play a major role in deciding who gets interviewed and ranked. To avoid DO discrimination, you can simply aim for less competitive places.

 

[deleted407021]

Sorry that you couldn't get into a better school but reality doesn't care about your feelings. Track matters. Name matters. Degree matters. Maybe you'll be able to stumble into a half decent program. Good luck!

Hah, the tired old mantra of the abrasive jerk. We just can’t handle how real and gritty you are!

Here’s the thing, it’s not what you said that I’m taking issue with. It’s how you said it. It’s how you say almost anything when it comes the MD-DO comparison. You can’t help but be rude and condescending and unhelpful.

I’d like to know why though. Why are you such an ??

 

[sliceofbread136]

You'll find the lines even more blurred.
Attendings read threads like this and laugh

Laugh all you want. Let’s just say that I would very very surprised if a truly accurate measurement didn’t show a difference. If I had a choice for my own doctor I’d choose md everytime (given similar residencies)

 

[rg2o3]

I don’t know the logistics of how we would do it, but I’m pretty confident that on average the MDs would be better. By how much I don’t know. I’ve only had 2 do attendings to be honest, so my experience pool is small. one was great and one was terrible

Yeah. I really don’t have enough experience to give an intelligent, unbiased response lol
t

 

[831929]

Well the tone of this thread changed quickly...

 

[deleted245139]

Laugh all you want. Let’s just say that I would very very surprised if a truly accurate measurement didn’t show a difference. If I had a choice for my own doctor I’d choose md everytime (given similar residencies)

You miss the point... But as you grow in the field, you'll get it.
In the mean time, do you. MD, DO... The letters aren't going to make you a doctor. The effort and skill set will. So... This is petty, and really.... attendings don't have the time or the inclination to worry about this kind of stuff.
Go hit the books

 

[sliceofbread136]

You miss the point... But as you grow in the field, you'll get it.
In the mean time, do you. MD, DO... The letters aren't going to make you a doctor. The effort and skill set will. So... This is petty and really.... attendings don't have the time or the inclination to worry about this kind of stuff.
Go hit the books

Minimalize it all you want, but we both know it’s more than just letters. Even if we ignore differences in education we still have what are less qualified students going in, it would hardly be surprising if we get worse stuff coming out.

And we get it, you’re an attending... congrats

 

[deleted245139]

Or... Possible that the medical education system somewhat levels the incoming skill sets and normalizes the product. Your A in physical chemistry does not translate to clinical acumen. I've trained alot of people, DO and MD. So... Yes, I have a bit of a better frame of reference.

 

[DoctorCrush]

I'm just so damn grateful and proud that I got into a medical school (DO) and know that one day if I work hard enough I'm going to be a doctor. I don't give a **** about comparing d**k size at this point. The only thing I'd be piss about is if I made less money than you and we're in the same field

 

[sliceofbread136]

Or... Possible that the medical education system somewhat levels the incoming skill sets and normalizes the product. Your A in physical chemistry does not translate to clinical acumen. I've trained alot of people, DO and MD. So... Yes, I have a bit of a better frame of reference.

Sure it’s possible, but like I said seems very unlikely. In general the person who does well in college will be smarter than the person who does poorly, and in general a smarter person will make a better clinician. Seems like pretty simple deduction to me, and I’ll need something more than “I’m an attending” to convince me. Wouldn’t work for me on the wards and it won’t work for me on sdn