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BrownSound

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"
Dear ****** and ******,

I hope you are both doing well. I just wanted to share that I received
my license as a pharmacist this week. Thank you for the interesting
experience at ***************.

I just wanted to share a few thoughts as a former student:

1) SPEP is first and foremost a learning experience for students. The
evaluation component is important but it should not supersede the
learning experience. Your style of conducting the rotation resulted in
complete loss of confidence, self-esteem, and mental trauma. I do not
believe it was necessary for me to feel this way to be able to learn
in an effective manner.

2) Pharmacists are generally nice people, not insensitive monsters. I
hope that no future student is unfortunate enough to have you as
preceptors. I hope you don't treat your own son/brother this way. Next
time you are ever privileged to teach and are about to assign a grade:
think about it twice. You are not here to go on a ego charged power
trip. You are here to pass on the knowledge.

3) Life is short. Preceptors are generally remembered by students with
fond memories. In this case, I will only remember having palpitations
and nightmares months after finishing my rotation. You can 'pray' and
be God loving on the surface, but your actions were two-faced. Do not
ever dare to treat anyone the way I was treated, because karma will
catch up to you sooner or later. If you have insecurities about your
career or unfulfilled dreams, do not take it out on students. Get rid
of your superiority complex. Life is short, keep it simple and positive.

4) I never imagined that I would experience the worst time of my life
during my rotation with you guys. The only positive thing that you
both taught me is that life can be brutally unfair and that you can't
take anything for granted.

You may feel defensive while you read this email, but I hope on a
rainy Sunday when you are reflecting on your life, your conscience
humbles you. I hope I find strength to forgive both of you one day.

I hope you learned something from me.

Sincerely,
******************
"


Don't be a jackass preceptor, or you will get an email like this.
 

joetrisman

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"
dear ****** and ******,

i hope you are both doing well. I just wanted to share that i received
my license as a pharmacist this week. Thank you for the interesting
experience at ***************.

I just wanted to share a few thoughts as a former student:

1) spep is first and foremost a learning experience for students. The
evaluation component is important but it should not supersede the
learning experience. Your style of conducting the rotation resulted in
complete loss of confidence, self-esteem, and mental trauma. I do not
believe it was necessary for me to feel this way to be able to learn
in an effective manner.

2) pharmacists are generally nice people, not insensitive monsters. I
hope that no future student is unfortunate enough to have you as
preceptors. I hope you don't treat your own son/brother this way. Next
time you are ever privileged to teach and are about to assign a grade:
Think about it twice. You are not here to go on a ego charged power
trip. You are here to pass on the knowledge.

3) life is short. Preceptors are generally remembered by students with
fond memories. In this case, i will only remember having palpitations
and nightmares months after finishing my rotation. You can 'pray' and
be god loving on the surface, but your actions were two-faced. Do not
ever dare to treat anyone the way i was treated, because karma will
catch up to you sooner or later. If you have insecurities about your
career or unfulfilled dreams, do not take it out on students. Get rid
of your superiority complex. Life is short, keep it simple and positive.

4) i never imagined that i would experience the worst time of my life
during my rotation with you guys. The only positive thing that you
both taught me is that life can be brutally unfair and that you can't
take anything for granted.

You may feel defensive while you read this email, but i hope on a
rainy sunday when you are reflecting on your life, your conscience
humbles you. I hope i find strength to forgive both of you one day.

I hope you learned something from me.

Sincerely,
******************
"


don't be a jackass preceptor, or you will get an email like this.
gpa?
 

Shnurek

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I'm glad you did this. There are some professors in my program that are similar.
 
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bbooss

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Dec 23, 2011
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"
Dear ****** and ******,

I hope you are both doing well. I just wanted to share that I received
my license as a pharmacist this week. Thank you for the interesting
experience at ***************.

I just wanted to share a few thoughts as a former student:

1) SPEP is first and foremost a learning experience for students. The
evaluation component is important but it should not supersede the
learning experience. Your style of conducting the rotation resulted in
complete loss of confidence, self-esteem, and mental trauma. I do not
believe it was necessary for me to feel this way to be able to learn
in an effective manner.

2) Pharmacists are generally nice people, not insensitive monsters. I
hope that no future student is unfortunate enough to have you as
preceptors. I hope you don't treat your own son/brother this way. Next
time you are ever privileged to teach and are about to assign a grade:
think about it twice. You are not here to go on a ego charged power
trip. You are here to pass on the knowledge.

3) Life is short. Preceptors are generally remembered by students with
fond memories. In this case, I will only remember having palpitations
and nightmares months after finishing my rotation. You can 'pray' and
be God loving on the surface, but your actions were two-faced. Do not
ever dare to treat anyone the way I was treated, because karma will
catch up to you sooner or later. If you have insecurities about your
career or unfulfilled dreams, do not take it out on students. Get rid
of your superiority complex. Life is short, keep it simple and positive.

4) I never imagined that I would experience the worst time of my life
during my rotation with you guys. The only positive thing that you
both taught me is that life can be brutally unfair and that you can't
take anything for granted.

You may feel defensive while you read this email, but I hope on a
rainy Sunday when you are reflecting on your life, your conscience
humbles you. I hope I find strength to forgive both of you one day.

I hope you learned something from me.

Sincerely,
******************
"


Don't be a jackass preceptor, or you will get an email like this.

First of all, congratulations for you accomplishment.

Your story remind me about my 3 months of headache with my preceptor. I know exactly what's the feeling and the effort that you should have to tolerate that kind of people.
Second, I am very glad that I am out of that place now doing my internship somewhere else.
My statement to all preceptors or pharmacists who want to be a preceptor is, "if you do not have the ability to learn or pass some knowledge, do not take any student. If you have bad or hard time in your personal life, people have nothing to do with it."
 

WVUPharm2007

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My mistake was not waiting until AFTER graduation to tell various preceptors, bosses, and professors that I thought they were power hungry ego-trippers.

Of course, the type of person that willingly takes students can frequently being the type of person described above.

The karma stuff is kinda lame....but other than that, I laughed.
 

TemSirolimus

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funny thing about this kind of post is weirdly carthatic....must the power of venting.

I used to be mad about my Wags 6 week rotation. After posting a few times here, I wonder what I was so upset about, almost seems insignificant in the grand scheme of things. Im sure the OP feels quite relieved after posting this.

Moral of the story, dont bottle things up.
 

KARM12

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I hope you didn't actually send this...it makes you look like a whiney baby. Pharmacy is a small world.
 

Carboxide

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I hope you didn't actually send this...it makes you look like a whiney baby. Pharmacy is a small world.

Had the same thought. You should have put this stuff in your evaluation of the rotation, not to your preceptor.

I can't believe everyone else here thinks this was a good idea. Grow up, move on.
 

Its Z

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Wow.....what a loser. Why not write a letter to everyone who pissed you off in life.
 

Its Z

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I have a great idea! I will revise the letter and make it to a student. And every poor student who wastes my time I'm going to give it to them on the last day
:thumbup:
:smuggrin:
 

joetrisman

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I have a great idea! I will revise the letter and make it to a student. And every poor student who wastes my time I'm going to give it to them on the last day
:thumbup:
:smuggrin:

I was thinking about this as I read it. That's why I asked about gpa. I've seen too many students who didn't care and can only imagine what it would be like precepting them. IMO preceptors should be hard on you as they are there to prepare you, not give you a "thatta boy" attitude.
 
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WVUPharm2007

imagine sisyphus happy
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Note all of the residency trained/hospital bigwig types don't like the theme of the letter.

Color me shocked.

Also, pharmacy isn't a small world. This is a lie, or at the least, exaggeration, that gets passed around frequently. I suppose its a small world the more infamous or specialized you are. But other than that, pharmacy is a huge world. And its very much regionalized. I moved 5 hours away and I didn't know anybody....nobody knew me...or of anybody I knew...or of anybody that knew me. As far as I know, I'm the only WVU grad around. It was cool, actually. I could reinvent myself professionally.
 
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WVUPharm2007

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Had the same thought. You should have put this stuff in your evaluation of the rotation, not to your preceptor.

Until you get that degree in your hand, its best not to rock the boat. I learned that lesson. Ooooooooh, boy, did I learn that lesson. Rotation is trash? Don't complain to your preceptor. Ever. If the people at the school like you a lot and will listen to you without thinking you are lying to them, then maybe try them. If they don't like you either...just shut up, nod your head, and move on.

Because, again, and I swear this is true...I complained to my preceptor that I wasn't really happy with what I was doing on my rotation (this is at Omnicare...where I literally was told to stand there for 10 hours and put little unit dose meds into boxes...every day...that was my rotation...)...and the dude complained to the school...where, naturally, I'm the one that gets reprimanded and my graduation is delayed 6 months. Granted, the school officials really didn't like me already...but still...to say it left a sour taste in my mouth is being kind.
 
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gotdrugs

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Dec 26, 2007
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"
Dear ****** and ******,

I hope you are both doing well. I just wanted to share that I received
my license as a pharmacist this week. Thank you for the interesting
experience at ***************.

I just wanted to share a few thoughts as a former student:

1) SPEP is first and foremost a learning experience for students. The
evaluation component is important but it should not supersede the
learning experience. Your style of conducting the rotation resulted in
complete loss of confidence, self-esteem, and mental trauma. I do not
believe it was necessary for me to feel this way to be able to learn
in an effective manner.

2) Pharmacists are generally nice people, not insensitive monsters. I
hope that no future student is unfortunate enough to have you as
preceptors. I hope you don't treat your own son/brother this way. Next
time you are ever privileged to teach and are about to assign a grade:
think about it twice. You are not here to go on a ego charged power
trip. You are here to pass on the knowledge.

3) Life is short. Preceptors are generally remembered by students with
fond memories. In this case, I will only remember having palpitations
and nightmares months after finishing my rotation. You can 'pray' and
be God loving on the surface, but your actions were two-faced. Do not
ever dare to treat anyone the way I was treated, because karma will
catch up to you sooner or later. If you have insecurities about your
career or unfulfilled dreams, do not take it out on students. Get rid
of your superiority complex. Life is short, keep it simple and positive.

4) I never imagined that I would experience the worst time of my life
during my rotation with you guys. The only positive thing that you
both taught me is that life can be brutally unfair and that you can't
take anything for granted.

You may feel defensive while you read this email, but I hope on a
rainy Sunday when you are reflecting on your life, your conscience
humbles you. I hope I find strength to forgive both of you one day.

I hope you learned something from me.

Sincerely,
******************
"


Don't be a jackass preceptor, or you will get an email like this.

Got a bad grade, huh?
 

type b pharmD

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Until you get that degree in your hand, its best not to rock the boat. I learned that lesson. Ooooooooh, boy, did I learn that lesson. Rotation is trash? Don't complain to your preceptor. Ever. If the people at the school like you a lot and will listen to you without thinking you are lying to them, then maybe try them. If they don't like you either...just shut up, nod your head, and move on.

Because, again, and I swear this is true...I complained to my preceptor that I wasn't really happy with what I was doing on my rotation (this is at Omnicare...where I literally was told to stand there for 10 hours and put little unit dose meds into boxes...every day...that was my rotation...)...and the dude complained to the school...where, naturally, I'm the one that gets reprimanded and my graduation is delayed 6 months. Granted, the school officials really didn't like me already...but still...to say it left a sour taste in my mouth is being kind.

This. ^^ I had some bad IPPE experiences and felt that it was more a product of the corporate/institutional environment that was leading preceptors to just not be able to provide a good experience. The OP's preceptor may just be really a stressed out and uptight kind of person who is being stressed by a multitude of demands and just can't provide a good experience. Maybe they are not a bad or evil person, (maybe they are), but you dont need to tell them this to their face. My school sends all the evals of IPPE's/APPE's to the preceptors after enough of them are compiled to be reasonably anonymous. If I were you, i'd write a scathing eval of them and describe all of the contributing factors. If they get it, they might feel more apt to change than if they just receive an angry personal rant. Also it will inform the school, which is the more important part anyway. If a rotation routinely gets terrible evals, they should consider removing it. A preceptor getting an angry email isnt going to change anything except make people personally more angry with you.


tldr: go through appropriate channels
 

phathead

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I choose to take the high road when frustrated like this and not actually act on what I would like to do.

My mentor taught me many years ago that there are times to be upset and to do something about it. For the most part, growing angry at something which is relatively minor will do no good, and could ultimately have the opposite effect.

Why expel you frustrations in a manner which may ultimately come back to harm you? Naturally it is not a certainty that it will, by why put yourself in that position? We all know the job market is tight, we all know we need to differentiate ourselves to make ourselves look marketable to employers, and I would never take a chance of shooting myself in the foot over a fit of frustration.
 
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rxlea

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It took you until rotations to learn that life isn't fair and not to take things for granted?

Wow. Were you coddled your entire life? Have you worked before?

A person can be a good worker but a bad attitude says everything. Granted, there are preceptors out there that are not very good. That's why it's important to communicate with the experiential coordinator. Of course, student support varies by school but at my school, they encourage us to let them know of there are issues...not wait until after the fact. Additionally, my school wants students and preceptors to sit down together on the first day of rotation and talk about expectations, potential projects, daily tasks, and what students want to get out of the rotation. For example, if you make IVs all day at your internship, you can ask to do other tasks. It's almost like a contract.
 
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UES Girl

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Oh please, those of you who can't relate, obviously never went through verbal and emotional abuse at a workplace before.
It's kinda like a Russian proverb, a stuffed will never understand the starving, same here.


There is working with tough demanding preceptors (who are fair and emotionally adequate) and there is bullying and the two of them are simply not the same. I have dealt with this with my undergrad research preceptor, so I can completely relate and am still dealing with the aftermath of confidence issues that stemmed from that repeated bullying and treatment I received in that environment.

There is only so much" sucking it up and so and so" you can do. Some people are just rotten sickening individuals that really do thrive on drama, misery and creating negative work environment for everyone else around them. If this was the case for OP- and it sounds like it was based on what he wrote about it being "the worst time of his life" and who would throw a phrase like that around lightly, can't blame him for wrting that email.
 

rxlea

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Oh please, those of you who can't relate, obviously never went through verbal and emotional abuse at a workplace before.
It's kinda like a Russian proverb, a stuffed will never understand the starving, same here.


There is working with tough demanding preceptors (who are fair and emotionally adequate) and there is bullying and the two of them are simply not the same. I have dealt with this with my undergrad research preceptor, so I can completely relate and am still dealing with the aftermath of confidence issues that stemmed from that repeated bullying and treatment I received in that environment.

There is only so much" sucking it up and so and so" you can do. Some people are just rotten sickening individuals that really do thrive on drama, misery and creating negative work environment for everyone else around them. If this was the case for OP- and it sounds like it was based on what he wrote about it being "the worst time of his life" and who would throw a phrase like that around lightly, can't blame him for wrting that email.

My point is that he should have brought it up earlier...not write a hate letter after the fact. Not much it will accomplish for him or for the students come after. One of my preceptors was incredibly rude and I put that in the evaluation. Come to find out that I wasn't the only student with a complaint. Preceptors can be fired too but nothing is going to happen if people don't go through the proper channels. This letter will do nothing except incite hostility.
 

UES Girl

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My point is that he should have brought it up earlier...not write a hate letter after the fact. Not much it will accomplish for him or for the students come after. One of my preceptors was incredibly rude and I put that in the evaluation. Come to find out that I wasn't the only student with a complaint. Preceptors can be fired too but nothing is going to happen if people don't go through the proper channels. This letter will do nothing except incite hostility.

Going through appopriate channels is not always useful. We have as a class and few to none things were accomplished/done. Several people got so furstrated they just stopped doing evaluations all together. Perphaps OP felt threatened to bring it up earlier or perphaps he was not in the position where he could - ex. being last rotation and just wanting to graduate on time vs. taking out additional 5-10 k of loans for the quarter just to repeat rotation with someone else ? Lots of potential circumstances where I can see someone trying to suck it up.

As far as what the letter would accomplish: maybe bring the OP much needed emotional calm and help in his healing process ?

What I don't understand is the mentality of pharmacy forums: I seen this many times and this is what is wrong with our profession. Where is the supposed compassion in people, where is the empathy ? Instead, let's destroy and ridicule OP to shreds, suggest he is bitter over a bad grade and blah blah blah. Same posters, same comments that I seen before, different threads. Not even funny.
 

rxlea

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Going through appopriate channels is not always useful. We have as a class and few to none things were accomplished/done. Several people got so furstrated they just stopped doing evaluations all together. Perphaps OP felt threatened to bring it up earlier or perphaps he was not in the position where he could - ex. being last rotation and just wanting to graduate on time vs. taking out additional 5-10 k of loans for the quarter just to repeat rotation with someone else ? Lots of potential circumstances where I can see someone trying to suck it up.

As far as what the letter would accomplish: maybe bring the OP much needed emotional calm and help in his healing process ?

What I don't understand is the mentality of pharmacy forums: I seen this many times and this is what is wrong with our profession. Where is the supposed compassion in people, where is the empathy ? Instead, let's destroy and ridicule OP to shreds, suggest he is bitter over a bad grade and blah blah blah. Same posters, same comments that I seen before, different threads. Not even funny.

You bring up important points. There are things wrong with the way schools handle things. There needs to be professionalism, though...on both sides. Everytime I'm mad about a situation at school or a rude preceptor, I vent about it. I don't write a hate letter. But hey to each their own.
 

Sparda29

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I've had mostly all great preceptors except for this one jackass preceptor who though she was all high and mighty because she had an MPH and worked at a public advocacy organization. I had to re-do a Public Health rotation (thankfully at a much better site).

I have no problem setting up a nice table on the street with a bunch of pamphlets, info, and free condoms, lube, and HIV testing kits to people who walk by. But, I'm not gonna stand there and yell "DO YOU KNOW THAT 1/30 NEW YORKERS HAVE HIV?" I'm not gonna actively approach people walking in the street to get a survey done. In fact, I HATE IT when people who are doing outreach actively approach me in the street, thus I'm not gonna do the same. If I'm interested, I'll go over to the person. She could not understand this.
 
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UES Girl

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You bring up important points. There are things wrong with the way schools handle things. There needs to be professionalism, though...on both sides. Everytime I'm mad about a situation at school or a rude preceptor, I vent about it. I don't write a hate letter. But hey to each their own.

I wouldn't write a hate letter either. But I've seen people truly at their emotional breaking point - a friend of mine walked off his of four years after his new boss who emotionally abused him for a couple months just went into a full psychosis on him - we later found out this individual has a history of psych disoder manifestations and violent outbreaks for which she was fired from a previous job. If this is that kind of severity situation, I wouldn't blame him for acting the way he did, even if I don't personally agree with him.


A lot of people in the health fields loose themselves in their jobs and what they do, after all the hard work you put in and years of schooling, job may begin to define a part of your identify, so if things go sour and not well, it's almost a personal crisis for some.
 

rxlea

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The truth is, we are paying a lot of money for training. It's reasonable to ask for the experience to be beneficial and positive provided you are doing what you are supposed to be doing. I think some students don't know how to have critical conversations in a professional setting. I've seen students make demands to professors and treat them rudely because they don't like the answer they receive. In my experience at work and school, if you approach a professor with a concern and voice it professionally, you're more likely to work it out. It's Ok to say, "This preceptor is saying these things and I feel uncomfortable to the point that I'm feeling anxious. I think it's jeopardizing my learning." Why keep it inside and then have a blow out? Why not talk about it directly with the preceptor? Maybe I'm just more direct or just old enough now that I feel comfortable working it out even if I don't like the answer. I realize this is just my personal experience but it's food for thought...
 

psychoandy

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total troll post, OP hasn't posted in 2 years. cool story bro

Oh please, those of you who can't relate, obviously never went through verbal and emotional abuse at a workplace before.It's kinda like a Russian proverb, a stuffed will never understand the starving, same here.

if this dude/chick was so butthurt over a 6 week rotation, they probably should have contacted their school's APPE administrator. i agree with WVU (for once) that you shouldn't hate on rotations when your grade is on the line, especially if they are faculty or affiliated with your school. but if bullying and "mental trauma" are issues, why wouldn't you have some sort of mediation or conflict resolution or just ask to change rotations?

edit: i missed your further replies. personally, i bitched about a LOT of rotations to anyone who would hear me. but if it came to the point of mental breakdown like OP indicates, why wouldn't you at least attempt going thru the appropriate channels? idk, at my school they were totally the touchy-feely type so if you said "they're giving me mental trauma because of x, y, and z, and i saw my doctor..." at that point they'd pretty much HAVE to do something. and if not, take it to the next level...
 
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ucrx

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In response to the OP's letter:

I think some rotations and preceptors are a miserable experience for students in a way that is entirely out of the students' control. (See my posts from first year residency, some months I was completely disheartened by what I was experiencing. I have since realized that some of the experiences could have been improved if I had a better attitude, although some issues still need resolving with those rotations.) Despite this, the OP's method for addressing the issues makes me question whether the issues were entirely the fault of the preceptors or if something else was occurring. It seems as if the author is only focused on their grade (that they think was worse than they deserved) and is unwilling to evaluate if they had any contribution to the negative experience. It would be interesting to see if everyone still had the same strongly positive or strongly negative views toward the OP & letter if we had more details about just what went wrong. I also think the preceptors would benefit from specifics if the experience was as bad as the OP makes it seem.

Until you get that degree in your hand, its best not to rock the boat.

Agreed. The same applies for residency as far as I'm concerned. I learned that lesson last year, and my fellow second years and I tried to warn our first years early in the year. (Unless of course I'm your preceptor- I'm still learning and want to get better. I'm already used to being critically evaluated so it would probably take a lot to personally offend me.)

I think most schools' rotation evaluation process generally provides anonymity and grade protection. My school did not release any evaluations until after graduation, at which point preceptors would get all evaluations (and I believe the comments were combined). Most rotations had enough students that it would be very difficult to identify the author.
 

TemSirolimus

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Sometimes when you realize that *one* miserable, egotistical person has the ability to shatter years and years of your hard work in one fell swoop, you may be forced to put up with alot at a great emotional toll.

The email will not accomplish much, chances are the these preceptors also harbor their own opinions about the OP, most likely negative. That said, I dont fault OP for feeling the way he/she does.

Miserable people who go out of their ways to make others miserable are the worst scum on the face of this earth. Just wallow in your own misery, leave others alone.
 

Dalteparin

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Aug 17, 2009
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Lots of good points in this thread...

It's possible that the OP is an entitled SOB who got what they deserved. It's also possible that the preceptor really is an abusive a-hole or that s/he is stressed out by institutional demands and took it out on the OP. Either way, s/he should not take students anymore.

I can understand why the OP might feel that they couldn't go through official channels. The person who coordinated APPEs at my school was a career academic with a gigantic ego who treated students like dirt. Complaining to that person would never have accomplished anything, so if I'd had a rotation as bad as the OP says his was, I'd probably have been on here venting too.

OP, did you actually send this e-mail, or did you just post it here to vent? Just curious.
 

Wexlor

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Oct 2, 2014
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A lot of good points and a lot of wisdom on this. I can only guess that such preceptors are applying 'old school' tactics. It is easy to understand such tactics, and they do indeed work for many people. Additionally, they can help weed out those that are not emotionally strong enough to be in the field in the first place. Nonetheless, all of this is moot. ACPE Standards ( 14.1 & 14.2 ; 2006) clearly do not condone any such tactics. Additonally, if the standards did not make this clear, the professional code of conduct calls all upper level medical staff to a higher standard than what was conveyed here (albeit second hand and possibly subjective).
 
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