Dear Student: No, I won't Change the Grade You Deserve

[mimelim]

I had a great discussion this evening between three physicians, (including a faculty adcom), a lawyer, a priest and a financial manager about this article. We talked at length about how this applied not only to grades in school, but to the job market, performance at jobs, medical school grades, pre-med shadowing, starting companies, etc.

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You’ve all heard the trope: Children today grow up believing it’s their effort that matters. Everyone gets a trophy, and everyone deserves to be praised just for showing up. As one author put it: “Parents have moved from feeling they should give their children everything they need, to giving them everything they want.”

You can debate how much truth there is here. But plenty of professors have told me that when many of their students get to college, they lug into the classroom a sense of academic entitlement—a belief that their papers and exams should be graded on how hard they’ve worked, not how well they’ve mastered the material. When they don’t receive the grades they think they deserve, many take the matter up with the graders.

When that happens, one thing becomes clear: Their feelings about the quality of their work often don’t match the reality of their performance. Instead of seeing their grades as a reflection of how well they interpreted or executed their assignments, some students will come to a different conclusion: The assignment was too difficult. Or my professor doesn’t get me.

For many professors—especially faculty without tenure or the job security that comes with it—this poses a problem. Pleas to re-evaluate work can draw professors into annoying confrontations—or force them to explain the mechanics of grading to students, and sometimes angry parents, department chairs, or deans.

So I decided to ask a few professors, a learning consultant, and a graduate student how they would respond to these requests. Let’s say a student who received a C grade on a paper asks you to reread it and change their grade because they “worked so hard on it.” How would you respond?

https://chroniclevitae.com/news/908-dear-student-no-i-won-t-change-the-grade-you-deserve

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Given that half of what I was thinking about during that conversation was spawned from SDN, figured I'd share.

ps. that first line sounds like the start to a bad joke...

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[tea guzzling traveler]

Yeah, definitely a problem in many academic establishments, part of American exceptionalism. I would say however, that with enough editing, and taking advantage of the resources available, like going into professor's office hours and using the writing center, that it is generally possible to attain at least a B on any given assignment.

 

[Mad Jack]

Yeah, definitely a problem in many academic establishments, part of American exceptionalism. I would say however, that with enough editing, and taking advantage of the resources available, like going into professor's office hours and using the writing center, that it is generally possible to attain at least a B on any given assignment.

You can get an A on any assignment with the proper work and understanding of the English language. I can count the number of papers I got in my entire undergraduate career that I got less than a 90 on with one hand because I put the effort in when writing and actually read and applied Strunk's Elements of Style.

 

[medic86]

You can get an A on any assignment with the proper work and understanding of the English language. I can count the number of papers I got in my entire undergraduate career that I got less than a 90 on with one hand because I put the effort in when writing and actually read and applied Strunk's Elements of Style.

Strunkkkkkkkkk.

The man.

 

[hoihaie]

I TA for an upper div bio class and this is a regrade request I got verbatim:

"I should get full point, I believe the way I wrote it is unclear but it's the same idea as the key answer."

I guess I should have read his mind... my bad!

 

[Benighted]

The obvious issue with grading papers is that graders inadvertently (or sometimes purposely) employ a degree of bias that has developed throughout years of reading academic literature.

The same idea can be applied to exams. It's entirely possible to fail the same course (eg: ochem) with one professor and ace it with another professor simply because of how the material is taught and how the exams are structured.

Given that such bias exists and that exams/essay styles in the same class can dramatically vary from professor to professor, I would say that a fair share of the grade you receive is sometimes how well you can predict what the professor's looking for (in an essay) or how the professor will style his questions (in an exam) and how prepared you are for such styling. This "styling effect" on grades can be reduced when a professor administers sample exams with answers or sample essays depicting what an "A paper" looks like - because this way (even though some people might naturally be better at writing essays with a particular style or answering questions in a certain manner), everyone will have the potential to prepare themselves for stylistic components of the exam.

Furthermore, professors can sometimes be unclear about what material they plan to emphasize on their exams. I've been in a number of classes where my professor will abruptly mention a topic and expect us to be familiar with all the intricacies of that topic for the exam. If the professor is not clear with what the students need to know then the students will waste time trying to figure out what's important and the test is no longer solely measuring "mastery of the material," but how lucky the test-taker was in choosing what topics to study.

One last point: Sometimes professors will mention topics in an easily understandable manner in lecture (usually providing just the basics) and then expect students to make all the connections between the material and understand how to apply the concepts in difficult problems. However, sometimes it's unclear to the student whether connections between the material actually exist or whether the student truly understands the concept (because he/she is able to solve the easy problems the professor provided but has no examples of difficult "exam-type" problems to test his/her understanding). Students are not timeless machines and should be treated accordingly - if the professor expects the students to understand a concept to a larger extent than was presented in class, it should be clear (this is most definitely not always the case).

In my experience, most professors don't actually spend the time to organize and present the material in an interesting and easily understandable manner. Learning is a two-way street. It is my belief that is a professor has done his job correctly (worked hard in preparing his students for exams/essays), then "hard work" should be suffice for a student to master the material and ace an exam or write a strong paper. Accordingly, I believe that when a student goes to a professor and says that he "worked hard" to write a paper, the professor should confidently be able to reply "No, you did not and I can show you x, y, and z to prove it."

 

[nOchemallday]

In my experience, I must agree that the air of academic entitlement and endless grade-grubbing run rampant at my school. The thesis of the article is that hard work alone (namely in the absence of mastered material) ought not influence the grade. With this I also agree; hard work is supposed. Though the article is written primarily from the perspective of regrading essays, my counterargument is that good professors rarely face the problems outlined because they put as much hard work into preparing, teaching, and evaluating the class as they expect of their students. If the course is well structured , well taught, and the learning expectations/aspects of evaluation are communicated well, then only the brat-iest snobs try to grade grub and its easy to rightfully put them in their place.

My only real gripe with professors on this topic are those with the mentality: "you must go through me [to succeed]." For instance, an english teacher that gives everyone a D on the first essay to stress them to work harder or at a higher quality. That motivation may work for some, but using scare tactics isn't teaching. When the average on an assignment across several class sections (i.e. statistically valid) is failing with few, if any, individuals passing - and this is a chronic occurance from year to year or only amongst this professor's classes - there is a legitimate concern for the authority of the instructor to have sound judgement when assessing quality of student work.

 

[allantois]

For god's sake nowhere in their training do most professors learn how to come up with exams and grading. I personally had TA's try to take points off my lab reports because they had trouble understanding them as they went to undergrad abroad.
As a TA myself for a Chem class, the only instruction that we get is to "do whatever we want but be consistent with it", and everybody (professor, course administrator, etc etc) knows that all of us grade differently and nobody has come up with a perfectly objective way to grade subjective work.

 

[mehc012]

For god's sake nowhere in their training do most professors learn how to come up with exams and grading. I personally had TA's try to take points off my lab reports because they had trouble understanding them as they went to undergrad abroad.
As a TA myself for a Chem class, the only instruction that we get is to "do whatever we want but be consistent with it", and everybody (professor, course administrator, etc etc) knows that all of us grade differently and nobody has come up with a perfectly objective way to grade subjective work.

The closest we came was rotating all students through all grading TAs so that everyone had the same combo of inconsistent graders Fortunately it was only for one or two intro science courses; the rest were all handled alone by the prof.

 

[ridethecliche]

I was waiting for one of those responses from a tenured faculty member simply saying the following:

"No"

 

[blackroses]

To play devil's advocate for a moment: there are valid reasons for students to approach instructors for a grade change, no matter how annoying that is for a professor. And personally, I find it disturbing how easily these valid reasons are thrown by the wayside. For example, in a lower division english course I took last quarter, I received a B- and am currently petitioning the grade. Why? When I showed up to sit for the midterm (a 4 page essay that had to be written during the 50 minute class time), I found several students in class already working on it. At the end, the professor announced that students could stay longer if they needed to finish up. He allowed students to start early if they showed up early, and stay late to finish if they could. I had classes with required attendance right before and right after his class, and was unable to take advantage. He did not allow any other arrangements. This meant that a handful of students got 70 or more minutes to write the essay while others got only 50 minutes. His only comment on my essay was that it "didn't look finished". So you can bet I'm petitioning my grade on that midterm (along with the final, for a similar reason). While I'm sure that, to him, that extra 20+ minutes was no big deal (and in fact he said as much himself), I think most people can agree that there's a big difference in writing an essay in 50 minutes versus 70-80 minutes.

In other words: I know that every instructor ever cringes when they hear the words "grade change," but sometimes, it's worth considering what the student is saying and putting yourself in their shoes.

 

[Narmerguy]

You can get an A on any assignment with the proper work and understanding of the English language. I can count the number of papers I got in my entire undergraduate career that I got less than a 90 on with one hand because I put the effort in when writing and actually read and applied Strunk's Elements of Style.

I had a professor who said he only gave A's to papers he thought were worthy of publication in an academic journal. A bit of a BS standard for an undergraduate English course but whatever floats his boat. You can't get A's in everything, no need to sweat it.

 

[optimistic3]

I recently met someone like this for the first time. I had to convince her NOT to ask her sociology professor to bump her grade from a C to a B for no reason.

I do not envy a professor's job.

 

[medic86]

I had a professor who said he only gave A's to papers he thought were worthy of publication in an academic journal. A bit of a BS standard for an undergraduate English course but whatever floats his boat. You can't get A's in everything, no need to sweat it.

Owch.

I can barely get started on this discussion section I need to write, let alone churn out a product that's good enough for publication without many revisions (this is my first one).

 

[NickNaylor]

I TA'd a course in undergrad that required little more than showing up to a one hour lecture once a week and doing a very, very minimal amount of actual work. The course was for pre-meds and was designed to provide some insight into what medicine is about in addition to the application and training processes.

It was the worst teaching experience I've ever had. Between having to deal with people's pathetic excuses for not doing the two things that were required of them to earn a guaranteed A and the hours spent responding to begging for grade increases, it was terrible. I've never dealt with such a group of horribly entitled students in my life. This sort of thing doesn't surprise me at all.

Sadly, it seems to extend even into medical school.

 

[Copernicium]

I want you to know that I worked really hard to assess your paper taking into consideration your hard work, too. I imagined you working on the paper while you equally worked hard at monitoring Facebook, Twitter, and Instagram updates. I imagined you checking your instant messages and email on your smartphone every few seconds while you were working hard on your essay. I imagined you drafting the paper in the midst of many distractions and then deciding that you had a final paper. I worked really hard at seeing you submitting a paper that had been outlined, drafted, proofread, and edited. I worked really hard at this.

Therefore, I want you to know that I worked as hard at assessing your performance as you did at writing your paper. I apologize for my error. I see that your paper does not meet the minimum requirements for this assignment. I am going to have to change your grade to a D. Please feel free to see me during my office hours if you have any questions.

Some of these professors have no chill 🤣

 

[mimelim]

I like the topic, but that article disappointed me. Basically only the first professor's "letter" to the student was anything approaching how they would actually handle this situation in real life, which is what I was interested to hear. The rest just used the article as a platform to unleash a screed against entitlement, millennials, grade inflation, and whatever other things they were mad about.

I agree about the article. What I found interesting is how much this applied to a lot of the things that I see on SDN as well as in residency.

http://forums.studentdoctor.net/threads/frustration-with-hard-work-vs-intelligence.1121104/
http://forums.studentdoctor.net/threads/why-are-medical-geneticist-not-paid-like-surgeons.1121154/
http://forums.studentdoctor.net/threads/shadowing-how-much-to-be-competitive.1060519/

Just off the front page. Today we were talking about hours issues and this cropped up, the concept of, "It is 5pm and I'm going home vs. patients still need care and will suffer if you don't get the work done." To me it is the fundamental difference between, "I worked hard and that is all I have to do" vs. "I produced something or I got something done."

 

[KnuxNole]

I agree about the article. What I found interesting is how much this applied to a lot of the things that I see on SDN as well as in residency.

http://forums.studentdoctor.net/threads/frustration-with-hard-work-vs-intelligence.1121104/
http://forums.studentdoctor.net/threads/why-are-medical-geneticist-not-paid-like-surgeons.1121154/
http://forums.studentdoctor.net/threads/shadowing-how-much-to-be-competitive.1060519/

Just off the front page. Today we were talking about hours issues and this cropped up, the concept of, "It is 5pm and I'm going home vs. patients still need care and will suffer if you don't get the work done." To me it is the fundamental difference between, "I worked hard and that is all I have to do" vs. "I produced something or I got something done."

This definitely exists in residency and with attendings. Lots of "NOT MY JOB, ITS 5PM, SUCKS FOR YOU PEEPS!". As a student, I saw it much more rampant during IM/surg checkouts, thankfully in my residency it's very minimal to non existent 😉

 

[kevinsword91]

I TA'd an introductory human biology course for non-science majors. The course syllabus was my shield against whiny students. I still had students come to me and plead their case about why they should be able to take a quiz that they slept in for or asking if there was some magical extra credit assignment I was hiding, but I always had the syllabus to back me up. The students who came to me asking for re-takes on quizzes where always the students who put essentially zero effort into studying beforehand.

On the opposite side of the spectrum I did have a professor who believed that no essay deserved a perfect score because there was "always room for improvement". While I was never gunning for a perfect grade on a paper, it was a little disheartening to know that I automatically lost 3-4% of my grade before I even turned it in.

 

[swindoll]

This reminded me... My research PI printed out a long email he got from a student begging to raise his/her grade. (Without the name, of course.)
It's now on a fridge for everyone to see... lol so embarassing 😛 Although, I do feel bad for the student.

 

[QuantumFlame]

I was really struck by the snarky, almost mean-spirited hypothetical responses that some of the professors wrote. Granted, the professors knew this was not going to an actual student, so perhaps they would have handled it differently in real life. That being said, I can understand the frustration. They probably have to field questions like this all the time, and it is a huge time sink and emotionally draining to deal with entitled students.

On the other hand, it does seem like they could have handled the situation with more grace. An (imperfect) analogy comes to mind. A patient comes in, and the physician suspects that s/he is simply looking for painkillers. The physician may even be very certain of that fact. Maybe its the 3rd patient that day who has a similar complaint. Maybe the physician is tired of seeing patients who are self-destructively seeking inappropriate medications. All of that being said, the physician should still treat the patient with respect, hear them out, yet be firm in following his/her best professional judgement. Likewise, professors are human too, they get frustrated, and we can't fault them for being a bit bitter at times. But in my mind, that doesn't excuse phrases like: Dear Student Who Must Be Out Of Their Mind. That simply reduces the professor to a petty name-calling level.

 

[fancymylotus]

Wait what? I cant cry whine and demand that I get what I want, exactly when I want it? Wtf is happening to my life 🙁

 

[deleted407021]

There are certainly a few professors who are obnoxiously officious and who act as if they're teaching at Star Fleet Academy instead of X State University.

 

[ridethecliche]

@J Senpai , does the LUCOM student code of conduct actually say that?

I dropped down from a B+ to a C+ in a math class because I got deathly sick during finals week and couldn't sleep and the professor wouldn't move the exam. I emailed him asking about my final (we never got them back so I asked what happened) and his response was awesome.
He basically wrote: "Let me just say... it was bad".

It was pretty hilarious. I had no idea what was going on in that class so it doesn't really surprise me...

 

[NYCdude]

I find that most of the time, professors aren't lunatics and are more than fair. It's just that students are lazy and want to take the shortest possible route towards getting their work done.

At least in my experience, for every professor that hands out an A every 5 years, there are 10 who allow you to drop the lowest exam score, retake quizzes, provide extra credit opportunities, etc.

 

[KungFuPanda123]

To play devil's advocate for a moment: there are valid reasons for students to approach instructors for a grade change, no matter how annoying that is for a professor. And personally, I find it disturbing how easily these valid reasons are thrown by the wayside. For example, in a lower division english course I took last quarter, I received a B- and am currently petitioning the grade. Why? When I showed up to sit for the midterm (a 4 page essay that had to be written during the 50 minute class time), I found several students in class already working on it. At the end, the professor announced that students could stay longer if they needed to finish up. He allowed students to start early if they showed up early, and stay late to finish if they could. I had classes with required attendance right before and right after his class, and was unable to take advantage. He did not allow any other arrangements. This meant that a handful of students got 70 or more minutes to write the essay while others got only 50 minutes. His only comment on my essay was that it "didn't look finished". So you can bet I'm petitioning my grade on that midterm (along with the final, for a similar reason). While I'm sure that, to him, that extra 20+ minutes was no big deal (and in fact he said as much himself), I think most people can agree that there's a big difference in writing an essay in 50 minutes versus 70-80 minutes.

In other words: I know that every instructor ever cringes when they hear the words "grade change," but sometimes, it's worth considering what the student is saying and putting yourself in their shoes.

If the class was not curved, I see no good enough reason why your grade should be changed. You know that his policy works that way and should try to re-arrange your schedule around your midterms accordingly so that you can take just as much advantage of the extra time as the other students. In college, when you get your syllabus with all your midterm dates, you plan your vacations/trips/other things around those dates, because you know they're coming up. You should have done the same with your essay midterm.

Now the above argument I just made is weak; sometimes, things come up that are not able to be moved around, and I understand that. That being said, the class is (most likely since it's a humanities course) not curved. Assuming your professor grades with the mindset that everyone has 50 minutes and that an average essay should be a C+/B- for that time period (for a science class, this would be normal) or a B/B+ (for a humanities class, this is more normal) for that time period, there shouldn't be an issue with your grade. Yes, some other students may have been able to do better because they got the extra time, but their better grade should not have hurt your grade. Again, this is all assuming that the professor is grading with the mindset of what an average 50 minute paper should be like as opposed to creating this standard while grading a mixture of 50-70 minute papers.

Overall, I'd say that your chances of getting a regrade are slim. You raise some good points, but I humbly say, "Tough."

 

[phunky]

It blows my mind that there are people out there who would actually go to a professor and complain about their grade. That's just unthinkable to me.

 

[f4reignbeauty]

Oohh.. that was a good read.

 

[KnuxNole]

It blows my mind that there are people out there who would actually go to a professor and complain about their grade. That's just unthinkable to me.

It happens in almost every undergrad class that I had...

 

[farnell]

Typical "kids these days" argument. I'm sick of hearing that. I'm not advocating complaining about your grade, but grading, at least pertaining to written papers, has been and always will be subjective. Tons of students at my college plagiarized OChem lab reports on a weekly basis. Identical papers received A+'s and C+'s depending on the TA on graded them. I appreciate that the responses are supposed to be funny and entertaining but they don't represent a realistic response you would get from a professor or TA.

 

[ridethecliche]

Typical "kids these days" argument. I'm sick of hearing that. I'm not advocating complaining about your grade, but grading, at least pertaining to written papers, has been and always will be subjective. Tons of students at my college plagiarized OChem lab reports on a weekly basis. Identical papers received A+'s and C+'s depending on the TA on graded them. I appreciate that the responses are supposed to be funny and entertaining but they don't represent a realistic response you would get from a professor or TA.

Okay, lets talk about helicopter parents then. Those are people of @mimelim 's generation and older.

People my age weren't born entitled. They were made to feel that way. Lets see whose fault that really is.

 

[mimelim]

Okay, lets talk about helicopter parents then. Those are people of @mimelim 's generation and older.

People my age weren't born entitled. They were made to feel that way. Lets see whose fault that really is.

Just out of curiosity how old do you think I am?

 

[NYCdude]

Just out of curiosity how old do you think I am?

Given how long surgical residencies are, anywhere between 55-70.

 

[blackroses]

If the class was not curved, I see no good enough reason why your grade should be changed. You know that his policy works that way and should try to re-arrange your schedule around your midterms accordingly so that you can take just as much advantage of the extra time as the other students. In college, when you get your syllabus with all your midterm dates, you plan your vacations/trips/other things around those dates, because you know they're coming up. You should have done the same with your essay midterm.

Now the above argument I just made is weak; sometimes, things come up that are not able to be moved around, and I understand that. That being said, the class is (most likely since it's a humanities course) not curved. Assuming your professor grades with the mindset that everyone has 50 minutes and that an average essay should be a C+/B- for that time period (for a science class, this would be normal) or a B/B+ (for a humanities class, this is more normal) for that time period, there shouldn't be an issue with your grade. Yes, some other students may have been able to do better because they got the extra time, but their better grade should not have hurt your grade. Again, this is all assuming that the professor is grading with the mindset of what an average 50 minute paper should be like as opposed to creating this standard while grading a mixture of 50-70 minute papers.

Overall, I'd say that your chances of getting a regrade are slim. You raise some good points, but I humbly say, "Tough."

I think you're confused about what the circumstances of this exam were, so let me clarify. I was not on vacation. I was not taking trips. I was not sleeping in. I was not doing something fun. The reason I could not show up early or stay late was because I had classes with required attendance both immediately before and immediately after that class (and by immediately, I mean 10 minutes, not one hour). The professor in the class immediately after that one locks the door right when the class starts (and in fact, we had a test in that class the same day). If you're even 3o seconds late, tough ****. So this was not a matter of my poor planning, my being lazy, or my being unwilling to rearrange my schedule. Additionally, we were not told about the extra time beforehand. Students who showed up early were simply told to start, and at the very end, he announced that people were welcome to stay late if they wanted. Finally, even if we had known about the extra time beforehand, I didn't even have the opportunity to attempt to rearrange my schedule, because we took the midterm on a different date than planned, because the professor forgot to arrange a proctor to show up on the date it had been planned.

(And this is completely ignoring that it's against university policy to provide extra time for exams, assignments, quizzes, or anything graded that all students cannot take advantage of).

 

[Goro]

Only about 2x in my entire career here at my SOM have I had students come begging for a higher grade. I resisted the urge to throw them out of my office, but the answer was definitely "no"

 

[musicalfeet]

Only about 2x in my entire career here at my SOM have I had students come begging for a higher grade. I resisted the urge to throw them out of my office, but the answer was definitely "no"

Out of curiosity, where do these students get the galls to even come in and ask that? I have enough problems as is asking a professor for an excused absence....

On another note, I once saw a girl in my Ochem class come into office hours and ask to get her B- bumped to an A- because "she did better than her friend in the same class, but her friend got a C+, so she didn't think it was fair" ?! My Ochem prof was one of the best teachers I've had in my life and extremely understanding, so it shocked me that someone would be so shameless as to ask for such a large grade bump...

I think he was wayyyy too nice about it, and basically said she had poor attendance in lab so that's why it hurt her. And if she went to every lab session in the next semester (she still got him), he'd bump the previous semester grade up to a B+. WHAT?!?!

 

[hoihaie]

Out of curiosity, where do these students get the galls to even come in and ask that? I have enough problems as is asking a professor for an excused absence....

On another note, I once saw a girl in my Ochem class come into office hours and ask to get her B- bumped to an A- because "she did better than her friend in the same class, but her friend got a C+, so she didn't think it was fair" ?! My Ochem prof was one of the best teachers I've had in my life and extremely understanding, so it shocked me that someone would be so shameless as to ask for such a large grade bump...

I think he was wayyyy too nice about it, and basically said she had poor attendance in lab so that's why it hurt her. And if she went to every lab session in the next semester (she still got him), he'd bump the previous semester grade up to a B+. WHAT?!?!

that kind of person wouldn't go to ALL the lab next quarter anyways.

 

[deleted407021]

@ridethecliche Essentially, yeah. I'll find and post the actual quote from their little proclamation later. I took some artistic license with the biblical prose, though.

 

[KungFuPanda123]

I think you're confused about what the circumstances of this exam were, so let me clarify. I was not on vacation. I was not taking trips. I was not sleeping in. I was not doing something fun. The reason I could not show up early or stay late was because I had classes with required attendance both immediately before and immediately after that class (and by immediately, I mean 10 minutes, not one hour). The professor in the class immediately after that one locks the door right when the class starts (and in fact, we had a test in that class the same day). If you're even 3o seconds late, tough ****. So this was not a matter of my poor planning, my being lazy, or my being unwilling to rearrange my schedule. Additionally, we were not told about the extra time beforehand. Students who showed up early were simply told to start, and at the very end, he announced that people were welcome to stay late if they wanted. Finally, even if we had known about the extra time beforehand, I didn't even have the opportunity to attempt to rearrange my schedule, because we took the midterm on a different date than planned, because the professor forgot to arrange a proctor to show up on the date it had been planned.

(And this is completely ignoring that it's against university policy to provide extra time for exams, assignments, quizzes, or anything graded that all students cannot take advantage of).

I understand that you weren't going on trips and what not - those were just examples of things that can be foreseen in advance.

You have classes with mandatory attendance before/after (couldn't you have talked to those profs about being a bit late because of a midterm?). The professor also screwed up the test-date, and that is definitely his bad. Then in this case, I am more inclined to agree with you. The original circumstances posted (as well as the ones that I had in my mind) made me think along a different path than you. Thank you for clarifying.

 

[ridethecliche]

Just out of curiosity how old do you think I am?

You probably have more white hairs in your beard than I do tbh.

I know you're not that old, guessing late 20s, early 30s, aka what I'd refer to as kinda my age as I'm 25. I said that at you kinda tongue in cheek 🙂

 

[fancymylotus]

Just out of curiosity how old do you think I am?

🤣

 

[jamcat]

You can get an A on any assignment with the proper work and understanding of the English language. I can count the number of papers I got in my entire undergraduate career that I got less than a 90 on with one hand because I put the effort in when writing and actually read and applied Strunk's Elements of Style.

I think your experience may be unique. There was not a single 4.0 in the graduating class of either of my majors, and there were plenty of gunners who would have gotten all As if hard work, a grasp of English, and Strunk were all it took.



I have professors as parents and I do get a chuckle over some of the stories they tell, mostly of folks who were lazy all semester. The greatest ones go to the dean after their requests are inevitably refused. It's incredible.

At one college my parents teach at the dean is starting to back students because they "obviously care" about their education if they cared enough to complain to the dean. Scary, scary stuff.

 

[f4reignbeauty]

The only time I'll talk to a professor regarding a grade is if my assignments and exams reflect one grade consistently, but then my overall grade is lower. In those cases, I had to give proof that I got a particular grade, and the issue was resolved quickly.

 

[Mad Jack]

I think your experience may be unique. There was not a single 4.0 in the graduating class of either of my majors, and there were plenty of gunners who would have gotten all As if hard work, a grasp of English, and Strunk were all it took.



I have professors as parents and I do get a chuckle over some of the stories they tell, mostly of folks who were lazy all semester. The greatest ones go to the dean after their requests are inevitably refused. It's incredible.

At one college my parents teach at the dean is starting to back students because they "obviously care" about their education if they cared enough to complain to the dean. Scary, scary stuff.

I took courses at three separate colleges. Only courses I ever got lower than an A on were in the sciences- respiratory courses, microbiology, physics, chem, and the like. Whether it was nonfiction, creative writing, reports, or literary analysis, the same rules always applied. Make your writing compelling and know what your professor wants. Always ask what you did for lower than A work that you could correct to do better next time. Always do at least 3 drafts of a paper- an initial, a fully-fleshed out draft, and a final edit. Don't use run-on sentences. Don't use paragraphs that are too short or too long. Don't ever add filler. If you have to use filler, your writing probably sucks or you don't understand your subject well enough. Don't plagiarize. I guess I've got a different skill set than most medical students- my original major was journalism, and I've always been an avid reader and writer. If you know the rules of the English language, understand how to properly structure a report, and know what compelling writing is, basically any non-science paper is a cakewalk.

 

[Mad Jack]

The only time I'll talk to a professor regarding a grade is if my assignments and exams reflect one grade consistently, but then my overall grade is lower. In those cases, I had to give proof that I got a particular grade, and the issue was resolved quickly.

You should always ask a professor what you could do to improve if you aren't getting the grades you would like. Don't ask them to change your current grade- ask them what you can do better next time so that you can earn that A. Knowing what they expect is half the battle.

 

[f4reignbeauty]

You should always ask a professor what you could do to improve if you aren't getting the grades you would like. Don't ask them to change your current grade- ask them what you can do better next time so that you can earn that A. Knowing what they expect is half the battle.

Miscommunication: if all of my assignments were A's and my final grade is a C+ that is a major discrepancy. It's not about the A...

Edit: I do agree with your advice though. It's more about asking what you can do to in order to do well next time.

 

[ridethecliche]

I took courses at three separate colleges. Only courses I ever got lower than an A on were in the sciences- respiratory courses, microbiology, physics, chem, and the like. Whether it was nonfiction, creative writing, reports, or literary analysis, the same rules always applied. Make your writing compelling and know what your professor wants. Always ask what you did for lower than A work that you could correct to do better next time. Always do at least 3 drafts of a paper- an initial, a fully-fleshed out draft, and a final edit. Don't use run-on sentences. Don't use paragraphs that are too short or too long. Don't ever add filler. If you have to use filler, your writing probably sucks or you don't understand your subject well enough. Don't plagiarize. I guess I've got a different skill set than most medical students- my original major was journalism, and I've always been an avid reader and writer. If you know the rules of the English language, understand how to properly structure a report, and know what compelling writing is, basically any non-science paper is a cakewalk.

Depends. It's certainly harder to sit in an english class and get an A when some of the people next to you are published authors/journalists...

 

[bluejay456]

On the whole asking for a grade bump for no reason is silly. But having had a crazy professor who changed assignment dates on a whim, had impossible assignments and tested on material he specifically said would not be on a test, I can understand a lot of students frustration. In this instance a lot of students complained to the department head and actually got grade bumps. that professor is no longer teaching that class lol.

 

[MrChance2]

There just needs to be a strong explanation of how things are graded from the beginning in my opinion. Anyone would agree "I worked hard" is BS. I think "You said for each valid argument for point XYZ we get 10 points and here are 7 valid arguements why did I only get 50 points" would at worst with an intelligent student find constructive criticism for the student and ideally the chance to say that shouldn't be taken away from them. I understand all professors generally hate grading and hate regrades even more. I never really liked getting grades without explanation or the ability to contest especially when GPA is so important as a premed and grading especially in undergrad can be so varied, but I understand resources are limited. I'm not sure where the balance point should lie. I have not found people to be more entitled more than 10 years ago, seems more like a regional or SES thing to me.

 

[jamcat]

I took courses at three separate colleges. Only courses I ever got lower than an A on were in the sciences- respiratory courses, microbiology, physics, chem, and the like. Whether it was nonfiction, creative writing, reports, or literary analysis, the same rules always applied. Make your writing compelling and know what your professor wants. Always ask what you did for lower than A work that you could correct to do better next time. Always do at least 3 drafts of a paper- an initial, a fully-fleshed out draft, and a final edit. Don't use run-on sentences. Don't use paragraphs that are too short or too long. Don't ever add filler. If you have to use filler, your writing probably sucks or you don't understand your subject well enough. Don't plagiarize. I guess I've got a different skill set than most medical students- my original major was journalism, and I've always been an avid reader and writer. If you know the rules of the English language, understand how to properly structure a report, and know what compelling writing is, basically any non-science paper is a cakewalk.

Apparently you've never had professors that give only give several As a decade. Or the professor who never gives an A because an A implies perfection and none of us are perfect. (Luckily I was warned before taking his class!)

Both of my parents are professors in the social sciences/humanities and have had literally thousands of students over the years. There have been some that have worked incredibly, incredibly hard and failed to get As. You're just wrong.

One of my majors was lit and if getting As were as easy and formulaic as you describe, everyone would be getting them. My lit GPA was very, very solid, but the same effort that gets you an A in one class will get you an A- or B+ in another. Which is fine--anybody with a 4.0 hasn't been challenged enough! And personally, I think science papers and lab reports are a heck of a lot easier than a 20-page paper analyzing four lines of a poem.

My lit major was at an Ivy, so maybe my perception is skewed. But my parents currently teach at a state school, a liberal arts college, and a community college, and I believe their experience over yours, sorry.