Debt is incredible!

[xhamburgersamx]

---

Members do not see this ad.

So I just calculating how much it costs to attend USC which is close to many of the private schools: NYU, UPENN, etc.

The numbers are incredible.... behold the amount you need to take out (assuming no help from outside source):

$8500 subsidized loans
$36444 max unsubsidized loans 6.8%
$60000 Grad PLUS loans 8.5%

$104,944 for D1 .
At graduation D1 loans = $135,256.77 (interest accrued)

D2: $104,944 + interest = $127,678
D3: $108,944 + interest = $124,780
D4: $75,500 + interest = $80, 751

Grand Total on the day you graduate: $468,366

If I want to pay this off in 10 years, I would need to put down $5,599.07 in monthly payments - is this possible?

 

[Slack3r]

Yeah, with a take-home salary of about $150k you'll be able to afford $6000 per month, except that's going to leave you with only about $6000 left for your car, food, utilities, rent, etc. If you live very frugally for 10 years, sure it's possible.

 

[Danny289]

So I just calculating how much it costs to attend USC which is close to many of the private schools: NYU, UPENN, etc.

The numbers are incredible.... behold the amount you need to take out (assuming no help from outside source):

$8500 subsidized loans
$36444 max unsubsidized loans 6.8%
$60000 Grad PLUS loans 8.5%

$104,944 for D1 .
At graduation D1 loans = $135,256.77 (interest accrued)

D2: $104,944 + interest = $127,678
D3: $108,944 + interest = $124,780
D4: $75,500 + interest = $80, 751

Grand Total on the day you graduate: $468,366

If I want to pay this off in 10 years, I would need to put down $5,599.07 in monthly payments - is this possible?

So, don't go to USC! try your state schools! 😎

 

[xhamburgersamx]

I ran NYU's numbers and debt at graduation is ~$420,000

 

[purplepanda]

I'm going to pray every day that I get into my state school. That should help a little.

 

[Tsrshorty]

thats not including living expenses. rent, utilities, health insurance, car payment, food, gas, entertainment, etc. In LA that is gonna be at least $2000 a month for 4 years = $96,000.

 

[armorshell]

Yeah, with a take-home salary of about $150k you'll be able to afford $6000 per month, except that's going to leave you with only about $6000 left for your car, food, utilities, rent, etc. If you live very frugally for 10 years, sure it's possible.

Ah, the mythical 0% tax bracket

 

[NyCzPeter]

Thank the government for glorious state schools

 

[PDizzle]

Thank the government for glorious state schools

Thank yourself for helping them run from after you graduate until your death! 😀

 

[TheGreenWave]

Ah, the mythical 0% tax bracket

HaHaHa, I was thinking the same thing.

 

[Slack3r]

Yeah, with a take-home salary of about $150k you'll be able to afford $6000 per month, except that's going to leave you with only about $6000 left for your car, food, utilities, rent, etc. If you live very frugally for 10 years, sure it's possible.

Ah, the mythical 0% tax bracket

Ah, the lack of reading comprehension. "Take-home salary" implies AFTER taxes. Better luck next time, princess. 👍

 

[Ranelar]

Ah, the lack of reading comprehension. "Take-home salary" implies AFTER taxes. Better luck next time, princess. 👍

Right, because the average dentist makes ~$200k before taxes straight out of school.

 

[Slack3r]

So what's a more realistic estimate? $150k sound better? After tax --> ~$120k. $10k/month - $6k for loans leaves you with $4000 per month for living expenses. Still possible.

Or how about $135k? $110ish after tax, now you're starting to push it. You'll be living off $3000 a month, which is do-able depending on where you live. Again, live frugal and it's possible. Or you could just re-finance at a low interest rate over 30 years and you're payments will drop to ~$2500 per month I believe.

 

[lnsip9reg]

So what's a more realistic estimate? $150k sound better? After tax --> ~$120k. $10k/month - $6k for loans leaves you with $4000 per month for living expenses. Still possible.

Or how about $135k? $110ish after tax, now you're starting to push it. You'll be living off $3000 a month, which is do-able depending on where you live. Again, live frugal and it's possible. Or you could just re-finance at a low interest rate over 30 years and you're payments will drop to ~$2500 per month I believe.

your numbers are off. average starting salary is $90-120k (if you can get an associateship in this economy)

let's estimate federal taxes at 35%, state taxes at 5% (10% in CA) = 40%

so assuming a generous $120k at 60% = $72K or $6K/month

i'd recommend either the 30-yr repayment plan since inflation will eat away at the debt amount over that time period greatly, or joining the military for anyone going to USC/NYU/UPenn/Pacific

i estimate i'll be coming out w/ $220-240K in debt.. and this is for a state school 😵

 

[Slack3r]

your numbers are off. average starting salary is $90-120k (if you can get an associateship in this economy)

let's estimate federal taxes at 35%, state taxes at 5% (10% in CA) = 40%

so assuming a generous $120k at 60% = $72K or $6K/month

i'd recommend either the 30-yr repayment plan since inflation will eat away at the debt amount over that time period greatly, or joining the military for anyone going to USC/NYU/UPenn/Pacific

i estimate i'll be coming out w/ $220-240K in debt.. and this is for a state school 😵

You don't understand how marginal tax brackets work do you? Ignoring the fact that you don't pay a 35% federal tax rate at $120k (more like 28%), you're only charged at that rate between $80-$170k. Your actual federal taxes on a $120k salary would be ~$27000, leaving you with ~$93k. But I will agree, that is a little low; leaving you with less than $2000 a month for living expenses which may be a stretch in any location.

Also, assuming he gets in next year, he has 4 years before he has to worry about loan repayment. As long as the Sun-God-Ra-Obama doesn't f*** everything up too badly, we won't still be in a recession by then (fingers crossed). And most average starting salaries I've seen for dentists puts the figures between $100-$135k, but as we all know, these numbers depend on many different factors, so arguing this point is effectively pointless.

 

[gryffindor]

So what's a more realistic estimate? $150k sound better? After tax --> ~$120k. $10k/month - $6k for loans leaves you with $4000 per month for living expenses. Still possible.

Or how about $135k? $110ish after tax, now you're starting to push it. You'll be living off $3000 a month, which is do-able depending on where you live. Again, live frugal and it's possible. Or you could just re-finance at a low interest rate over 30 years and you're payments will drop to ~$2500 per month I believe.

$3000 a month? Do I have to live with a roommate the next ten years? Rent alone is $1000/month in an average decent town. How about all the other costs associated with being a practicing dentist - malpractice insurance, disability insurance, licensing fees, professional society memberships - those can add up to $4K right there, so that's another $350 gone per month just maintain being a dentist. Now we're down to $1650/month. Can I afford to own a car? Get married and have a family? Go on a vacation once in a while? We're talking living on $3K/month for 10 years because you're paying $6K/month to the lenders hoping that your chance at the big money comes in 10 years.

Ten years is a long time.

 

[armorshell]

Ah, the lack of reading comprehension. "Take-home salary" implies AFTER taxes. Better luck next time, princess. 👍

For him to have a take home salary of 150k, he'd need to be making a gross of around $208,000. If you really think you can easily find a job paying that right after you graduate, let alone a job paying 150k gross, you might want to work on your reality comprehension.

Furthermore, considering that the educational loans you have are likely to be the lowest interest rate loans you'll ever have, paying them off before your other debt (mortgage), or even before reinvesting in yourself, is an effective loss.

 

[Istr8nthem]

Thank the government for glorious state schools

You can also thank the current state/federal government in New York State for the largest single year increase in tuition for state schools.... almost 25% Tuition is getting crazy everywhere. I understand that it is still cheap in comparison, but there are not many things that increase more than 20% during tough economic times except college tuition and NYC subway fares.....

 

[NoFear66]

Armorshell - Furthermore, considering that the educational loans you have are likely to be the lowest interest rate loans you'll ever have, paying them off before your other debt (mortgage), or even before reinvesting in yourself, is an effective loss.

(I don't know how to quote previous posts)

Heard that. Pay yourself first

 

[DrReo]

For him to have a take home salary of 150k, he'd need to be making a gross of around $208,000. If you really think you can easily find a job paying that right after you graduate, let alone a job paying 150k gross, you might want to work on your reality comprehension.

Furthermore, considering that the educational loans you have are likely to be the lowest interest rate loans you'll ever have, paying them off before your other debt (mortgage), or even before reinvesting in yourself, is an effective loss.

I was waiting for that.

I've seen some loans refinanced, before the market tanked, at 3% over 30 years. You can put that money in a safe investment over 6-8%.

"Most dentist do not make good business men" as an interviewer told me. It's important to note he was a successful endodontist and real estate investor in Florida.

 

[Heretotalk]

Went to USC's interview or.. "how great we are show". I was disgusted with their price tag, the lack of clinical availability. Most of the students there are just like wtf is the PBL format.

To USC it's great because they make a lot, and they dedicate little. Way to do business!

 

[DrReo]

Armorshell - Furthermore, considering that the educational loans you have are likely to be the lowest interest rate loans you'll ever have, paying them off before your other debt (mortgage), or even before reinvesting in yourself, is an effective loss.

(I don't know how to quote previous posts)

Heard that. Pay yourself first

What?

Invest and pay off higher interest loans, and those will hopefully not be your student loans.

 

[xhamburgersamx]

Great input everyone.

I took think that having a take of 120k is really effected by federal tax around 28-30% depending on deductions etc. Then you have the awful state tax which is up to 10% in california followed by social security and medi-cal. This effecitively makes you pay 40% of your earnings to taxes. How horrible is that. 72k take home isn't that bad but with these big private schoool, you would def. need to span out the loans to 20-30 years to live a decent life as suggested above. Yikes!

 

[WilsonJing]

Hey guys, I am going to USC this fall and is under NAVY HPSP. I just saw the my expense form from USC added to my application. I thank God I choose the military after graduation. From the military form it seems this year's billets are all gone.

 

[DrReo]

Great input everyone.

I took think that having a take of 120k is really effected by federal tax around 28-30% depending on deductions etc. Then you have the awful state tax which is up to 10% in california followed by social security and medi-cal. This effecitively makes you pay 40% of your earnings to taxes. How horrible is that. 72k take home isn't that bad but with these big private schoool, you would def. need to span out the loans to 20-30 years to live a decent life as suggested above. Yikes!

You want to do that regardless. If you read above, it's better to consolidate your loans to a low interest rate. Then, pay off higher loans, practice, mortgage, etc......

 

[DrReo]

Hey guys, I am going to USC this fall and is under NAVY HPSP. I just saw the my expense form from USC added to my application. I thank God I choose the military after graduation. From the military form it seems this year's billets are all gone.

For the Navy, you can be sworn in Oct 1 for the next round and only loose out on a few months. Plus, they will still pick up the tab.

 

[DLC9647]

As a Navy Officer (not a dentist..pilot thinking about dentistry after I get out), I can tell you the positives and negatives of the scholarship.

1. yes, you will be debt free when you graduate, yet your junior officer salary will be lower than a civilian dentist even after paying his/her loan payment...so there's not much difference there. For example: If a junior officer takes home $5000/mo and a civilian dentist takes home $7000 but then pays $2000 grand in loan payments....what's the difference? (don't quote these numbers..just here to make a point)...My point:
A Civilian dentist with loan payments will bring home more than a 'debt free' Navy dentist....debt free in not a good enough reason to take a Navy scholarship

2. Civilian dentist gets to choose where they go and work....Navy will tell you where to go and when to be there regardless of your choice....you get a say but in the end, you go where they need a dentist...this includes being out to sea for 6-10 month periods. I am married and can tell you this is a tremendous toll on family life.

I love the Navy, I am proud to serve and I would do it again...but it comes with sacrifice that recruiters don't tell you....please do not take a Navy scholarship unless your desire is to serve your country...If you do it just to be debt-free...you'll regret it. You can do better financially serving the community of your choice. Just my opinion...I see a lot of posts about the financial incentives of the scholarship..and my opinion is you need more reason than that to serve.

 

[zriceman]

As a Navy Officer (not a dentist..pilot thinking about dentistry after I get out), I can tell you the positives and negatives of the scholarship.

1. yes, you will be debt free when you graduate, yet your junior officer salary will be lower than a civilian dentist even after paying his/her loan payment...so there's not much difference there. For example: If a junior officer takes home $5000/mo and a civilian dentist takes home $7000 but then pays $2000 grand in loan payments....what's the difference? (don't quote these numbers..just here to make a point)...My point:
A Civilian dentist with loan payments will bring home more than a 'debt free' Navy dentist....debt free in not a good enough reason to take a Navy scholarship

2. Civilian dentist gets to choose where they go and work....Navy will tell you where to go and when to be there regardless of your choice....you get a say but in the end, you go where they need a dentist...this includes being out to sea for 6-10 month periods. I am married and can tell you this is a tremendous toll on family life.

I love the Navy, I am proud to serve and I would do it again...but it comes with sacrifice that recruiters don't tell you....please do not take a Navy scholarship unless your desire is to serve your country...If you do it just to be debt-free...you'll regret it. You can do better financially serving the community of your choice. Just my opinion...I see a lot of posts about the financial incentives of the scholarship..and my opinion is you need more reason than that to serve.

Wouldn't that be 2000 per month for 15 to 30 years depending on the size of the student loan?

 

[ArmyDDS2013]

I have to agree with Navy but ultimately the financial aspect of going to a big private school like nyu or usc does make the hpsp highly desirable, financially of course.

To have a positive mindset, you need to realistically think of your interest payments over 15-20 years and then come to the conclusion that you will be saving 300-400-500,000 of real money by serving the country through the military but simultaneously enduring the bull**** and polices that come with the line of work. If that amount of money is worth 3-4 years of service then you are making a good decision pursing the navy , army or air force.

For me, it's worth it! It's time to move out of my parents' home and take advantage of brand new experiences even if they are $hitty. It's only 4 years out of my life with another 25-30 left to practice in civilian life.

 

[DLC9647]

Wouldn't that be 2000 per month for 15 to 30 years depending on the size of the student loan?

Like I said, don't quote my numbers, I just made those up to prove a point. My point is that for most schools it financially it's better to take loans and the decision to go into the military for only tuition and stipend is potentially a big mistake.

ArmyDDS2013, I think has the right attitude about the military...you must first desire to serve and be willing to go anywhere/anytime then you can accept the financial benefits...my experience has been if you try to accept financial benefits without a desire to serve and are not willing to live the military life.....you will not be a happy camper. I have seen this with many doctor, lawyer, dentist types in the military....some of them just want to be a 'professional' first and an officer second....my experience is that you're an officer first and your 'trade' comes second.

 

[jfitzpat]

Like I said, don't quote my numbers, I just made those up to prove a point. My point is that for most schools it financially it's better to take loans and the decision to go into the military for only tuition and stipend is potentially a big mistake.

I agree with the recommendation not to join for the money alone. However, what people are trying to say is that it isn't better just to take loans in your example because when your four years of military duty are up, the other guy still has to pay that 2k a month for the next 26 years while you don't.

This topic has been dicussed thoroughly in the Military Dentistry forum, so anyone with an interest should take a look over there.

 

[DLC9647]

I agree with the recommendation not to join for the money alone. However, what people are trying to say is that it isn't better just to take loans in your example because when your four years of military duty are up, the other guy still has to pay that 2k a month for the next 26 years while you don't.


Agreed..good point, I should have mentioned...I guess I should elaborated the point in that the headstart in your civilian career for four years could outweigh the monthly payment and perhaps folks haven't thought of it that way. I just saw too many officers who took scholarships for the money but didn't truly think about the other sacrifices (ie...practicing on a ship out to sea for long periods). Further they were shocked to get out and not be making as much as their peer group even while the peers are paying loans. Just remember....Officer first...dentist second in the Navy. I don't want to steer anyone away from the Navy...I love it, but I also know it's not exactly what the brochures and recruiters say...I'm not a recruiter though and I happen to believe in shooting people straight about the debt vs no-debt decision.

 

[Ambivalentone]

Yeah, with a take-home salary of about $150k you'll be able to afford $6000 per month, except that's going to leave you with only about $6000 left for your car, food, utilities, rent, etc. If you live very frugally for 10 years, sure it's possible.

Slack3r
Let's talk real for a moment. Most dental students fresh out of school will be making approx. 70-80000 at best. Remember, income incurrs a tax bracket defined by the IRS. Only the best dental students who happen to know some of the best practices willing to hire an associate at 120,000+ dollars will be making more than 80,000 dollars a year. Truthfully, graduation doesn't equal automatic dollars. You have to look for a job, and find someone who will treat you fairly. Coming out of school with 400,000 dollars in debt seems ridiculous with an interest rate of 6% on average depending on if you use government loans or stafford loans. Search the forums some more and read up on this so you can be prepared.

At 80,000 dollars you may see around 67,000 dollars after taxes (check my facts though), and if you plan to pay off your loans at 6000 dollars a month you can subtract another 72000 dollars. This leaves you with negative dollars. Typical debt repayment plan is around 1200 dollars a month or so.

It's not about the money, but be sensible. I also love computers, but if (hypothetically speaking) I were forced to place myself at a disadvantage of half a million dollars in debt I wouldnt do it. I mean come on. According to what sources tell us, the US economy is in shambles because of our national debt as a result of too many IOU's. Too much debt is bad no matter what your passion is. Heck, going to the military for four yrs. or so of your life seems like urinating in the ocean if you come out with more experience and less debt. Please, what is there not to like about it. We sacrifice liberties more than we know from a day to day basis. I can sacrifice to be debt free. Bottom line...consider the military...serve your country as a favor for your country's serving you.

 

[thethethe]

Just apply to my school.
Jeffery college of dental medicine.
25,000 a year, all cash though.

 

[razblo]

I talked to my local hospital (after they had an article written about them in the paper) that they'd be willing to pay off ALL of my dental school debt if I would agree to coming back to my hometown for 'X years' after I graduated.

I'm from a small town (~4000 people) and I planned on practicing in my hometown if that would be possible so that's definitely an option for me.

 

[TempleDMDKrazd]

I talked to my local hospital (after they had an article written about them in the paper) that they'd be willing to pay off ALL of my dental school debt if I would agree to coming back to my hometown for 'X years' after I graduated.

I'm from a small town (~4000 people) and I planned on practicing in my hometown if that would be possible so that's definitely an option for me.

what would be your salary though?

 

[razblo]

what would be your salary though?

I have no idea. They only mentioned paying for me to go to school. I would assume I wouldn't make very much but if I didn't have any debt I don't think I'd mind not making a whole lot 😛

 

[Shinpe]

I am just wondering where everyone is getting their initial salaries from?

Are you more likely to find a better paying associate position if you went to a good school (UCLA, columbia, etc) as opposed to a s***Y school?

Also, how likely is it that you're successful in opening or buying a practice right after graduation? I can imagine that being very hard for people who want to start up in more crowded towns as opposed to a small, distant town, but what do you guys think/heard?

I mean, a dentist making 70-80K after graduation? What the heck is everyone talking about dentists making more $ than doctors then? Is that only down the line when you have established your practice?

How do these numbers and situations change for people who specialize? Ortho, oral, endo, etc ......??? I feel like if you've specialized and you're good and have connections, you're gonna have an easier time growing a practice. What do you guys think?

 

[joedrt9]

I'm no bizness man 🙂 but it seems like the average dentist with $300k+ debt (don't forget those carrying $30k+ in debt from undergrad years) will live a sorta average lifestyle for around 10 years after school.

Thus, if you figure 9-10 years of (stressful!!) schooling + 10 years of heavy bill paying, the monetary fruits of one's labor wouldn't really shine through until one is around 40 years old. Does this sound correct or am I way off base? I'm not trying to be gloomy - I'm just trying to get a realistic sense for where the average dentist stands. And yes, money definitely isn't everything.

 

[bbwreckerz04]

Could you do loan consolidation, that will lower your interest.

 

[cnano]

With that much debt, the more reason to join the navy dental corps for them to pay off loans.