DEBT!!! is it worth it?

[confettiflyer]

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Just to get back to the main subject at hand...
OP, who says you MUST take out huge loans for pharmacy school? Are you not considering any scholarships out there? For instance, I'm serving 3 years in the Air Force following pharmacy school, and I will be debt free. They are paying for 3 years of school and with the monthly stipend I'll be receiving, I will be able to pay off the loans from my first year of pharmacy school. There's more options out there than you would think, especially in the public health sector. Also, if you've worked as a pharmacy tech for certain retail companies (Wags) then you can get repayment of your pre-pharm courses once you're in pharmacy school. Retail chains will also help w/ your student loans if you sign a contract promising X years of service. It's just something to think about...you really don't have to accrue that much debt if you can suck it up and serve a couple years in the military or at a retail company.

that scholarship you're talking about is extremely selective and not applicable to most people. most scholarships won't even cover the cost of tuition for 3 weeks of school.

employer benefits are just as rare, and if they're not, they'll cover books pretty much. plus, some people don't wanna touch retail with a 10 foot pole.

so while mainstream scholarships are a nice thing to get, they'll barely make a dent when you consider the $150k+ people have to borrow for tuition + living expenses.

mmmmaybe if someone goes to a really really ridiculously cheap public school that could work, or if you work a lot (my take home pay just working as an intern last year technically covered about 2/3 of my private school's tuition).

 

[Judgment Dragon]

so if it takes me until i'm 80 to pay off a debt, it's worth it? explain your logic.

If you are 79 years and 360 days old and you take out a loan to go to pharmacy school and then you obtain the money from a millionaire friend and pay it back when you are 80 years old, then yes it is worth it. This is also assuming that you live up to age 100 or so to practice pharmacy for a few years before dying.

Anyways, let's get back on topic.

Are there any stories of unemployed pharmacists who have defaulted on their student loan debt? 😕

 

[confettiflyer]

If you are 79 years and 360 days old and you take out a loan to go to pharmacy school and then you obtain the money from a millionaire friend and pay it back when you are 80 years old, then yes it is worth it. This is also assuming that you live up to age 100 or so to practice pharmacy for a few years before dying.

Anyways, let's get back on topic.

i don't think you understood my original point (hint: something to do with opportunity costs and break-even points).

 

[Benelli]

I worked as a corrections officer for 15.44 an hour. I hated it. Being exposed to the worst members of society, diseases that will kill you or make you wish you were dead, and being in debt from getting my first degree... screw that I would much rather better myself. I could spend 160k and be happy, or keep working in my previous field and be miserable. Easy decision. As far as staying on topic, I have virtually no financial backing right now. I wish I grew up in a rich as hell family, but I am on my own. But in the end, it will make this whole experience that much better. This is an experience that will mold the rest of my life, and me as a person.

Although, I really wish that my biology degree had led me to an 80k+ job lol.

 

[pharmschooler]

I think if you really want to be a pharmacist and you can avoid too much debt, a pharmacy degree is worthwhile. If either (or preferably, both) of those cases doesn't apply to you, perhaps it isn't worth it.

 

[Passion4Sci]

I worked as a corrections officer for 15.44 an hour. I hated it. Being exposed to the worst members of society, diseases that will kill you or make you wish you were dead, and being in debt from getting my first degree... screw that I would much rather better myself. I could spend 160k and be happy, or keep working in my previous field and be miserable. Easy decision. As far as staying on topic, I have virtually no financial backing right now. I wish I grew up in a rich as hell family, but I am on my own. But in the end, it will make this whole experience that much better. This is an experience that will mold the rest of my life, and me as a person.

Although, I really wish that my biology degree had led me to an 80k+ job lol.

A POST certification and Guard Card in California would get you 75k+ as a city/county cop or CHiP...

 

[Benelli]

A POST certification and Guard Card in California would get you 75k+ as a city/county cop or CHiP...

True, but I already chose my path. 🙂 Maybe I will do the military, I definitely have the right mindset for it.

 

[Passion4Sci]

True, but I already chose my path. 🙂 Maybe I will do the military, I definitely have the right mindset for it.

Fair enough. =]

I considered going back in as an officer especially with the litter box tiffs winding down. I have no desire to ever set foot in that God-forsaken part of the world ever again.

 

[Corpseman]

Fair enough. =]

I considered going back in as an officer especially with the litter box tiffs winding down. I have no desire to ever set foot in that God-forsaken part of the world ever again.

Where were you?

 

[Passion4Sci]

Where were you?

LSA Anaconda x 15~ months and BAF x 13~ months.

 

[xtsukiyox]

Slightly different tactic to answer the OP's question:
Would you buy a $165k house & pay it off over time to avoid living in an apartment the rest of your life? The answer is... yes, most people (if they're lucky) will scrape to have the chance to do just that. I am doing it right now, even after the "housing bust," not as an investment per se but because I couldn't justify giving the same money to a landlord I hate to live on top of other people. A risk I'm taking is that I very well may have paid more than the house will rebound to in the short term, but... I can justify the debt with the other benefits of home ownership. (Plus, whatever it's worth, I'll own it when I finish paying it off!)

I'm very nervous about owing that kind of money with no guarantee on future wages. But there's no guarantee on anything. Yes, I'll take out a mortgage against my future - if I'm willing to gamble on a possession (a house), I'm certainly willing to gamble on myself & my future. Hell, if nothing else, I can double down, self-flagellate through law school, and become a drug patent lawyer anyway, right? 🙄

 

[Corpseman]

LSA Anaconda x 15~ months and BAF x 13~ months.

Ha good times, I spent all my time in the great city and surrounding areas of Fallujah.

 

[desklamp]

Just to get back to the main subject at hand...
OP, who says you MUST take out huge loans for pharmacy school? Are you not considering any scholarships out there? For instance, I'm serving 3 years in the Air Force following pharmacy school, and I will be debt free. They are paying for 3 years of school and with the monthly stipend I'll be receiving, I will be able to pay off the loans from my first year of pharmacy school. There's more options out there than you would think, especially in the public health sector. Also, if you've worked as a pharmacy tech for certain retail companies (Wags) then you can get repayment of your pre-pharm courses once you're in pharmacy school. Retail chains will also help w/ your student loans if you sign a contract promising X years of service. It's just something to think about...you really don't have to accrue that much debt if you can suck it up and serve a couple years in the military or at a retail company.


Also: think about job security. I'm one of the very few ppl in my class that is just starting P2 year and already has a job.

um. first off, your post just comes off as bragging and rubbing it into other student's faces. that being said, i don't know that joining the air force is doable or practical for that many people. if you're talking purely merit/need scholarships, i have around 13400$ in scholarships that i thought would make a decent dent in my debt, but i'm still going to graduate with around 150K (if you include accumulated interest during the school year). and this is not even including cost of living, it is purely tuition. if it increases at that rate until 2014 when i graduate, i might jump off a building. i would honestly like to know where all this money is going.

the issue here is more that the interest rates are much higher now than before (6.8% for grad loans compared to what i have been told was much lower previously) and tuition keeps going up and up and up. for example my tuition increased 2000$ from 2010-2011.

in all honestly OP, i regret my decision to go to pharmacy school. i feel like if i was going to rack up this much debt for a 100k salary profession that "a pda could do" (this is a comment taken from a med school debt article i read) i should have just kept trying for med school. if i could get in state tuition, i think i would be singing a different song though.

i guess what i am trying to say is, if you have to take out full loans to cover the 35k + for tuition = not worth it.

 

[netmag]

You seem to be under the impression that going to Med school would automatically result in a much much higher salary than being a Pharmacist. For the amount of schooling necessary, that may not be the case. It also depends on what you want to specialize in. I personally think that Pharmacy on it's own pays pretty well for the amount of schooling as far as health care related fields go. Also, unlike some other health care related fields Pharmacy has relatively stable pay. I mean you're pretty much guaranteed a certain range of pay. May not ever get to be much more than that but it's stable. Can't speak for the future though.

If making top dollar or having prestige is enough of a concern to make you waver on Pharmacy then unfortunately you probably have made the wrong decision. You should first pick something that you just flat out want to do and be aware of what that field involves when you actually get out and start to work. If you actually wanted to do that profession, you would find it easier to find ways of dealing with the debt. For example, you might be willing to say to yourself that you will just live like most other Americans who don't make 100K+ for the first year or so, so you can get the jump on the loans. But if you don't really want to be in a particular field in the first place then you might not be able want to live that modestly even for a while and it may appear that the whole thing was a waste of money.

um. first off, your post just comes off as bragging and rubbing it into other student's faces. that being said, i don't know that joining the air force is doable or practical for that many people. if you're talking purely merit/need scholarships, i have around 13400$ in scholarships that i thought would make a decent dent in my debt, but i'm still going to graduate with around 150K (if you include accumulated interest during the school year). and this is not even including cost of living, it is purely tuition. if it increases at that rate until 2014 when i graduate, i might jump off a building. i would honestly like to know where all this money is going.

the issue here is more that the interest rates are much higher now than before (6.8% for grad loans compared to what i have been told was much lower previously) and tuition keeps going up and up and up. for example my tuition increased 2000$ from 2010-2011.

in all honestly OP, i regret my decision to go to pharmacy school. i feel like if i was going to rack up this much debt for a 100k salary profession that "a pda could do" (this is a comment taken from a med school debt article i read) i should have just kept trying for med school. if i could get in state tuition, i think i would be singing a different song though.

i guess what i am trying to say is, if you have to take out full loans to cover the 35k + for tuition = not worth it.

 

[Trent Steele]

If a person goes to pharmacy school and graduates with a total of around $150,000-$175,000 is it really worth it(undergraduate included)? I find pharmacy pretty interesting, but with all this debt you could get a lower stress job that pays around $60,000 with less debt. Also,I heard that you take away 30% of your salary for taxes so the average %100,000 - 30,000$= $70,000. If you want to pay off your debt in 15 years that is ~ 12,000 at least per year (not including interest rate). Leaving you with ~ $55,000 per year for food, housing, entertainment, etc. With this concept having an $80,000 job and 30% of that goes to tax, leaves you ~$55,000. A floor broker ($80,000/yr) would then have the same earnings as a pharmacist for 15 years. That said, is all that stress worth it? Also, let me know if this is an unrealistic view on everything. Based on what i've seen this is what I get.

I wouldn't even go to college if I was a new hs grad

 

[R2pharmD2]

I wouldn't even go to college if I was a new hs grad

I need one of those "Not sure if serious" pictures here. If you are serious, what would you suggest instead? Does truck driving school count as college?

 

[owlegrad]

I need one of those "Not sure if serious" pictures here. If you are serious, what would you suggest instead? Does truck driving school count as college?

 

[R2pharmD2]

Ahh yes, that's the ticket!

 

[netmag]

Also,I heard that you take away 30% of your salary for taxes so the average %100,000 - 30,000$= $70,000..

Pharmacists aren't the only ones who pay taxes in this country. Unless you live off of capital gains or are a large corporation, you probably pay about the same as everyone else. So this is not really an issue if you're comparing apples to apples. You're still considered as being in the upper levels of pay relative to others in our country.

A floor broker ($80,000/yr) would then have the same earnings as a pharmacist for 15 years...

A floor broker is not a pharmacist. If you want to be a floor broker then the decision is made. If you want to be a pharmacist, then you need to get a PharmD. That's all there is to it. The two are not comparable in terms of professions really not unless you don't care which one you'd rather do for the rest of your life but that would be a personal choice.

That said, is all that stress worth it?

Stress is relative to each person. If you wanted to be a pharmacist, you would not consider the stress (real or perceived) as not being worth it.

 

[usacredentialed]

Just to get back to the main subject at hand...
OP, who says you MUST take out huge loans for pharmacy school? Are you not considering any scholarships out there? For instance, I'm serving 3 years in the Air Force following pharmacy school, and I will be debt free. They are paying for 3 years of school and with the monthly stipend I'll be receiving, I will be able to pay off the loans from my first year of pharmacy school. There's more options out there than you would think, especially in the public health sector. Also, if you've worked as a pharmacy tech for certain retail companies (Wags) then you can get repayment of your pre-pharm courses once you're in pharmacy school. Retail chains will also help w/ your student loans if you sign a contract promising X years of service. It's just something to think about...you really don't have to accrue that much debt if you can suck it up and serve a couple years in the military or at a retail company.


Also: think about job security. I'm one of the very few ppl in my class that is just starting P2 year and already has a job.

I got my Pharmacy degree in 1980 and graduated with minimal debt; when I hear what some current pharmacy students are carrying, I cringe. I enjoyed pharmacy, but moved on to another profession, so take what I say with a grain of salt. My daughter wanted to become a pharmacist (for all the right reasons) and I had her shadow several local pharmacists. She was surprized at how little meaningful patient interaction the pharmacist really had. She then shadowed a local NP and enrolled in nursing school. After some ICU nursing experience she completed the NP program and works as an indep. practitioner at a family practice office. Her scope of practice is almost unlimited (she basically does what an MD does without overstepping, has unbridled prescribing authority (CII's only 72 hours worth, otherwise unlimited). In short, she gets to function as a indep. practitioner and really help people. She doesn't spend her days on the phone regarding insurance issues.

 

[McPharmd]

Not going to do any math but pharmd will probably only be slightly better in the long-run than starting going into engineering/finance/accounting and working your way up.

So yes, the investment is worth it in the long run.

In the short-run, the other route will obviously be better.

I dunno how long the caught up period will be but the average pharmd will eventually catch up to the average person who started in engineering/finance/accounting. I am talking about averages and not the outliers. The long-run benefit will probably be not that huge of a gap though.

This is only thinking in monetary terms though.

The other factor would be job satisfaction.

You will probably be happier being a pharmacist, if that is truly what you wanted to be.

If you are willing to forgo the short-run monetary advantage for the slight long-run monetary advantage and job satisfaction then pharmd would be the way to go.

 

[xNeenax]

Will you have time to work as a pharmacy technician while you're in pharmacy school?

 

[xtsukiyox]

Not going to do any math but pharmd will probably only be slightly better in the long-run than starting going into engineering/finance/accounting and working your way up.

Whut. Are you serious? Engineering, I'm not in any position to speak on, but... Where did you get your numbers for Finance / Accounting? A 10 year + loan underwriter manager (highly trained position "finance") makes about $70k a year in my market. Accounting with a degree & 5+ years makes about the same here. Oh, and do we want to mention job stability??

In order to make on the same level as a PharmD, you have to be aggressive / lucky climbing the corporate ladder and take on a (middle) management role, which is a whole 'nother ball of wax. Positions making $95-100k plus are RARE. There is a definite "glass ceiling" - there just aren't a whole lot of jobs much above the figures in my first paragraph.

Please, if you're "not going to do any math" but base your entire point on generalities, at least reality check, yeah?

TL;DR: It's fun to pull numbers out of the air!

 

[Corpseman]

Whut. Are you serious? Engineering, I'm not in any position to speak on, but... Where did you get your numbers for Finance / Accounting? A 10 year + loan underwriter manager (highly trained position "finance") makes about $70k a year in my market. Accounting with a degree & 5+ years makes about the same here. Oh, and do we want to mention job stability??

In order to make on the same level as a PharmD, you have to be aggressive / lucky climbing the corporate ladder and take on a (middle) management role, which is a whole 'nother ball of wax. Positions making $95-100k plus are RARE. There is a definite "glass ceiling" - there just aren't a whole lot of jobs much above the figures in my first paragraph.

Please, if you're "not going to do any math" but base your entire point on generalities, at least reality check, yeah?

TL;DR: It's fun to pull numbers out of the air!

But every job out there has great job availability except for pharmacists......😉

 

[chemguy79]

Not going to do any math but pharmd will probably only be slightly better in the long-run than starting going into engineering/finance/accounting and working your way up.

So yes, the investment is worth it in the long run.

In the short-run, the other route will obviously be better.

I dunno how long the caught up period will be but the average pharmd will eventually catch up to the average person who started in engineering/finance/accounting. I am talking about averages and not the outliers. The long-run benefit will probably be not that huge of a gap though.

This is only thinking in monetary terms though.

The other factor would be job satisfaction.

You will probably be happier being a pharmacist, if that is truly what you wanted to be.

If you are willing to forgo the short-run monetary advantage for the slight long-run monetary advantage and job satisfaction then pharmd would be the way to go.

I would do the math because your calculations aren't quite accurate.

Given the current economy, my colleagues and I (in the sciences) have experienced a (total) raise of 2.5% over the course of 3 years. Cost-of-living increases are fools gold, salary freezes are common, etc. If the economy is humming, it's reasonable to expect to work your way up in salary. However, it's not happening currently and it's merely conjecture that it will happen again. You can surely work your way up with respect to added responsibilities and positions, but if you are expecting lifetime worth by starting low and working your way up, you will be sadly mistaken.

 

[xtsukiyox]

But every job out there has great job availability except for pharmacists......😉

Er, nope. I work in banking hun - it's far more bleak than pharmacy in my market. And we have a lot of banking sector here. Survived 3 layoffs. Now several major banks are hiring for highly trained positions with a time limit (1 year or 18 mos for the most part) and people are throwing themselves at it where this sort of job would get laughed at 3 years ago. Lines around the building for job fairs, 300 qualified applicants for a single sales position, that sort of thing. If you think "finance / accounting" is a good field right now or in the near future, you're sadly mistaken.

Corpseman, if you were intending to be sarcastic, sorry I missed it with my knee-jerk reaction.

 

[Corpseman]

Er, nope. I work in banking hun - it's far more bleak than pharmacy in my market. And we have a lot of banking sector here. Survived 3 layoffs. Now several major banks are hiring for highly trained positions with a time limit (1 year or 18 mos for the most part) and people are throwing themselves at it where this sort of job would get laughed at 3 years ago. Lines around the building for job fairs, 300 qualified applicants for a single sales position, that sort of thing. If you think "finance / accounting" is a good field right now or in the near future, you're sadly mistaken.

Corpseman, if you were intending to be sarcastic, sorry I missed it with my knee-jerk reaction.

Sorry, poor attempt at sarcasm heh, but thanks for the info! 😀 Sounds rough out there..... for everyone.

 

[DelawareStudent]

LSA Anaconda x 15~ months and BAF x 13~ months.

BAF = Bagram or Baghdad?

I was in Bagram Winter-Spring '07

 

[Nguyen]

.

 

[xtsukiyox]

Sorry, poor attempt at sarcasm heh, but thanks for the info! 😀 Sounds rough out there..... for everyone.

Yeah, I missed 3 rounds of layoffs, the last one by the skin of my teeth by posting to a different department. Scary stuff!!

Edit: I guess I said the layoffs thing already, but I can't explain to someone who hasn't been through it exactly what kind of stress you go through just before (everyone knows something's coming), during, and after. I'm grateful my first experience was when it was, though. It taught me to plan contingencies!

 

[chemguy79]

Yeah, I missed 3 rounds of layoffs, the last one by the skin of my teeth by posting to a different department. Scary stuff!!

Edit: I guess I said the layoffs thing already, but I can't explain to someone who hasn't been through it exactly what kind of stress you go through just before (everyone knows something's coming), during, and after. I'm grateful my first experience was when it was, though. It taught me to plan contingencies!

Agreed! I survived 2 rounds of layoffs and had to take a 10% paycut in order to keep my job as a research chemist at my old company.

It makes the P4 pharm students, new grads and acerbic trolls that complain about having to make an effort to find a job after graduation sound like *insert hateful words here*. Welcome to the real word where you don't get bonuses, vacation time, etc. for merely finishing a professional degree program which provides you the opportunity to have a higher yearly income than 95% of Americans.

Apologies for being rather snippy tonight, but after finishing a glorious weekend and merely thinking about joining the rate race in big pharma tomorrow makes my sympathy is completely nonexistent! 😀

 

[RxMTM]

 

[Gorilla King]

If a person goes to pharmacy school and graduates with a total of around $150,000-$175,000 is it really worth it(undergraduate included)? I find pharmacy pretty interesting, but with all this debt you could get a lower stress job that pays around $60,000 with less debt. Also,I heard that you take away 30% of your salary for taxes so the average %100,000 - 30,000$= $70,000. If you want to pay off your debt in 15 years that is ~ 12,000 at least per year (not including interest rate). Leaving you with ~ $55,000 per year for food, housing, entertainment, etc. With this concept having an $80,000 job and 30% of that goes to tax, leaves you ~$55,000. A floor broker ($80,000/yr) would then have the same earnings as a pharmacist for 15 years. That said, is all that stress worth it? Also, let me know if this is an unrealistic view on everything. Based on what i've seen this is what I get.

You would actually pay less than $15,000 of tax because of some write offs like student loan interest, licenses, dependents, etc.

 

[lauradiddle]

You would actually pay less than $15,000 of tax because of some write offs like student loan interest, licenses, dependents, etc.

I was under the impression most pharmacists make too much to deduct student loan interest from their taxes.