Decent EM programs in the South-Osteopath friendly

[J.J.]

I'm looking for some advice on programs in the Southeast that are Osteopath friendly. I'm currently establishing 4th year electives at the following programs:

1. Vandy (I'm from Nashville but I don't feel Vandy is overly Osteopath friendly, however I have many connections that may become influential.)

2. Emory (Again, not overly Osteopath friendly but they do have some DOs on faculty.)

3. UAB (The EM director said they have accepted one DO in the past...hmmm!)

4. UK (EM director said he has accepted Osteopaths in the past, however their application is sometimes delayed due to COMLEX interpretation.)

5. UMC (Jackson, Miss)

Any other programs relatively close to TN I should consider?

JJ

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[EctopicFetus]

How about USF. QuinnNSU (our very own EM mod) is a DO and is there (for now).

I assume you know about the saem.org website they have every residency in the country on there and if you really want you could just look through and see who is there.

I believe MCG (medical college of georgia (in Augusta)) has a number of DO residents.

I hope this helps some.. Plus UF-Gainesville just opened their program so who knows.

I was at ORMC and IIRC there had NO DOs... Just a little FYI.

Also Mount Sinai in Miami in a DO EM residency (I cant speak to the quality of the program but I am sure others on here know).

 

[mfrederi]

while this doesn't really sound like the geographic area you are looking for, Parkland/UTSW in Dallas is very DO friendly and has taken many grads from TCOM in the last few years. Also, I noticed that Duke has taken a few DOs as well.

 

[OSUdoc08]

I'm looking for some advice on programs in the Southeast that are Osteopath friendly. I'm currently establishing 4th year electives at the following programs:

1. Vandy (I'm from Nashville but I don't feel Vandy is overly Osteopath friendly, however I have many connections that may become influential.)

2. Emory (Again, not overly Osteopath friendly but they do have some DOs on faculty.)

3. UAB (The EM director said they have accepted one DO in the past...hmmm!)

4. UK (EM director said he has accepted Osteopaths in the past, however their application is sometimes delayed due to COMLEX interpretation.)

5. UMC (Jackson, Miss)

Any other programs relatively close to TN I should consider?

JJ

Texas residencies are DO friendly.

Texas A&M and Texas Tech have DO faculty in the ED, and all programs in Texas have DO's as residents at the present time.

 

[streetdoc]

Since it is below the Mason-Dixon, I'll suggest WVU. There are several DOs and FMGs in the program.
streetdoc

 

[allendo]

Since it is below the Mason-Dixon, I'll suggest WVU. There are several DOs and FMGs in the program.
streetdoc

Check out EMRAMATCH.org, it tells how many D.O.'s in each program.

 

[DrQuinn]

Sounds like you're looking for the real down and durrrrty South... not "we're deep in the South but more like a dysfunctional New York" Florida...

As above, MCG is also very DO friendly. I think there is a program in South Carolina that is DO friendly as well.

One website that would be very useful for you, that wasnt' in existence when I was applying, was www.emramatch.org. Its updated annually by the chief residents, and includes info such as "current # of DOs" and "# of DOs as residents in the past 5 years."

When I was applying, I had to just go to every website and see if there was a DO in their current resident list or alumni.

As for Florida, UF-JAX and USF are historically "DO friendly." Orlando was historyically "not," however, this applicant season I did hear that a DO applicant had an interview at ORMC, so go figure.

Q

 

[J.J.]

Thanks for the info. Those web-sites were really helpful.

JJ

 

[SoCuteMD]

I miss the down and durrrrty .

 

[southerndoc]

I doubt very seriously Vandy will take a DO. They won't even allow DO's to rotate there as medical students!

 

[OSUdoc08]

I doubt very seriously Vandy will take a DO. They won't even allow DO's to rotate there as medical students!

I wonder if things will change in the near future now that a DO school is opening in Tennessee.

 

[J.J.]

I didn't realize an Osteopathic program was coming to TN.

JJ

 

[OSUdoc08]

I didn't realize an Osteopathic program was coming to TN.

JJ

Yes. It will be in Harrogate, Tennessee. It is affiliated with Lincoln Memorial University. Someone from the administation at my school is the VP of the new school.

 

[corpsmanUP]

Give up Vandy. Save yourself the trouble and heartache. It doesn't matter who your connections are, even if its your father who is the PD! I didn't listen to my buddies and mentors and thought a 262 would be good enough to get at least an interview....NOT!! I wish I had my money back!!

Give up Carolinas, UNC, and most west coast programs, UNM, UVA, Hopkins, UArizona, Denver, and most Chicago programs other than Res or Christ (which is arguably the best there anyway!).

The good news is that the rest of the country and programs throughout are mostly DO friendly assuming you meet the standards of their average applicant. I got interviews at Indy, Emory, Maryland, Duke, Mayo, UTSW, Christ, Ohio State, Pitt, Case Western, Maricopa, Texas Tech, and many other great places.

My experience this year has been that if you have the stats, you will be treated like anyone else. Good luck.

 

[southerndoc]

Give up Carolinas, UNC, and most west coast programs, UNM, UVA, Hopkins, UArizona, Denver, and most Chicago programs other than Res or Christ (which is arguably the best there anyway!).

I know a DO who did residency at Johns Hopkins. Unless things have changed in the last 5 years, then Hopkins isn't off limits.

 

[corpsmanUP]

I know a DO who did residency at Johns Hopkins. Unless things have changed in the last 5 years, then Hopkins isn't off limits.

Yeh, that is true. It is probably even possible to get an interview and match at places like Hopkins and perhaps even Vandy, but you are going so much against the tide that you might as well just put your efforts toward other programs. And like MD's, at programs like these you even have to do more than just apply. You need to call them and let them know you are serious about wanting to come there and it may move your app to the "other" stack. I did this at Maricopa, Christ, Emory, and Pitt and got interviews at all shortly after. One even said to me on the phone, "oh, we didn't realize you were really interested". They get so many apps and if you fall out of the typical radius, you might not get taken serious unless you follow up.

 

[EctopicFetus]

Give up Carolinas, UNC, and most west coast programs, UNM, UVA, Hopkins, UArizona, Denver, and most Chicago programs other than Res or Christ (which is arguably the best there anyway!).

Uhh Cook County has a fair number of DOs as residents and attendings, plus thier Tox fellow is a DO.. Add that to the chicago programs.

 

[OSUdoc08]

Uhh Cook County has a fair number of DOs as residents and attendings, plus thier Tox fellow is a DO.. Add that to the chicago programs.

The only question I have about Cook and all other 4-year programs, is why would someone want to go there?

The whole reason that I am doing ACGME residencies is that I can complete them in 3 years instead of 4. 4-year ACGME residencies eliminate this benefit.

Are there 4-year residencies that are so much better than some of the 3-year residencies that it is worth the extra year? If so, which ones and why?

 

[southerndoc]

Are there 4-year residencies that are so much better than some of the 3-year residencies that it is worth the extra year? If so, which ones and why?

It depends on what you want to get out of it, as I have said many times on here.

I believe four-year programs offer more training, but I will reserve my true and final opinion until I have completed my fourth year of training.

Here is one thing I have always found true. Graduates of three-year programs are either mixed or feel that the fourth year is not necessary. Graduates of four year programs generally feel the fourth year is necessary. I have yet to meet a four-year residency graduate who said the fourth year was a waste.

It really is up to individual preference. Do you need the fourth year? I doubt it. Would it offer more training? Yes. Does this additional training increase your knowledge substantially? No. It will only increase your knowledge a marginal amount since the majority of your residency knowledge comes from the first two years of your training.

 

[EctopicFetus]

This has obviously been discussed at length. As a current MS4 I think it offers more opportunity for electives (which is obvious since you have another yr) and more opportunity for research. I dont think it is necessary and my #1 choice will be a 3 yr (to be held under wraps until Feb 22). That being said if things in my life were different I would prob have ranked some 4 yr programs much much higher..

Honestly I think 99% of it comes down to whether or not you like the programs and the people there. While I have enjoyed all my interviews I did leave some more impressed than others.

Also if you hope to get an academic job I believe 2 things are true. 1) (not quite as sure on this one but) I believe as a % more grads of 4 yr programs go into academics.
2) (anectdotal but makes sense) a 4yr academic program wont hire a grad from a 3 yr unless they have experience or have done fellowship.
3) For example when I interviewed at Wash U (a 1-4) it seemed like 50% of their grads went into academic spots, of course they seemed to push research more than anywhere else I have been.

Lastly, a question for some of the senior residents on here perhaps.. Why in gods name would a program be a 2-4 rather than a 1-4.. Being a 2-4 makes it a pain in the rear IMO.

Lastly, I believe there was a study done, perhaps southerndoc can comment... it showed that there were NO measureable difference in income, patient outcomes, likelihood to get sued between grads of 3 and 4 yr programs.

Hope you find some of this info useful!

 

[OSUdoc08]

This has obviously been discussed at length. As a current MS4 I think it offers more opportunity for electives (which is obvious since you have another yr) and more opportunity for research. I dont think it is necessary and my #1 choice will be a 3 yr (to be held under wraps until Feb 22). That being said if things in my life were different I would prob have ranked some 4 yr programs much much higher..

Honestly I think 99% of it comes down to whether or not you like the programs and the people there. While I have enjoyed all my interviews I did leave some more impressed than others.

Also if you hope to get an academic job I believe 2 things are true. 1) (not quite as sure on this one but) I believe as a % more grads of 4 yr programs go into academics.
2) (anectdotal but makes sense) a 4yr academic program wont hire a grad from a 3 yr unless they have experience or have done fellowship.
3) For example when I interviewed at Wash U (a 1-4) it seemed like 50% of their grads went into academic spots, of course they seemed to push research more than anywhere else I have been.

Lastly, a question for some of the senior residents on here perhaps.. Why in gods name would a program be a 2-4 rather than a 1-4.. Being a 2-4 makes it a pain in the rear IMO.

Lastly, I believe there was a study done, perhaps southerndoc can comment... it showed that there were NO measureable difference in income, patient outcomes, likelihood to get sued between grads of 3 and 4 yr programs.

Hope you find some of this info useful!

This is the most common modality for AOA residencies. I'm not sure why an ACGME residency would do this.

 

[EctopicFetus]

There are 15 of them...

http://saem.org/rescat/pgy2-4.htm

I am still looking for a good reason for things being this way. I dont really mind the 4th yr but 1-4 is the way to go.

 

[OSUdoc08]

There are 15 of them...

http://saem.org/rescat/pgy2-4.htm

I am still looking for a good reason for things being this way. I dont really mind the 4th yr but 1-4 is the way to go.

The AOA 2-4 residencies most often have an "Emergency Medicine Emphasis" internship.

Do these 2-4 ACGME residencies offer a similar internship, or do you have to find a "Traditional" internship? How common are ACGME internships?

 

[EctopicFetus]

ACGME "internships" are quite common. There are two way of doing this, one of Prelim Medicine (where you are basically a medicine intern), option 2 is to do a transitional yr, this is kind of like being a 3rd yr but being an intern on each service.

These programs vary greatly with call months and what electives you can do. There is no "emphasis" like in AOA residencies. Basically you are cheap labor while you learn the basics.

 

[EctopicFetus]

These internships are required for a number of ACGME fields, including but not limited to Rads, Neuro, OPhtho, oh there are also prelim surgery yrs but they are much much harder.
All are from last yr
Prelim Surgery 1331 spots
Prelim Medicine 1987 spots
Transitionals 1017 spots.

So there are a ton of them.. but many specialties are required to do these as well.

 

[DrQuinn]

e. Graduates of three-year programs are either mixed or feel that the fourth year is not necessary. Graduates of four year programs generally feel the fourth year is necessary. I have yet to meet a four-year residency graduate who said the fourth year was a waste.

Actually, I know several PGY4s who say they wish they never did the fourth year. Then again, it may be program specific.

And being 5.8 months to graduation, I can say that an extra year probably wouldn't make even a 10% difference in how I practice. It may make me feel a bit more confident... i.e. 4000 more cases under my belt... but not enuogh to really make a big difference... I feel very comfortable now, although I do realize there is still quite a bit for me to learn....

Q

 

[BKN]

There are 15 of them...

http://saem.org/rescat/pgy2-4.htm

I am still looking for a good reason for things being this way. I dont really mind the 4th yr but 1-4 is the way to go.

I don't know that the reasons are good, but there is a fairly involved history. When EM programs were first invented themselves in the early '70s, it wasn't clear what the structure should be. By the mid-80s it stood like this:

1/3 PG1,2,3s
2/3 PG 2,3s
a couple of 1-4s.

We, (the PDs) agreed that the 2,3 structure was inadequate. Most of us felt that the 1,2,3 was inadequate also. We went to the ABMS in 1987, looking to get requirements for a 1-4 structure. Unfortunately, that same year Anesthesia came looking for an extra year as well. Medicine and Surgery saw this as detracting both from their funding and their service requirements and attempted to block both. Anesthesia got nothing, but got the year later (I think). We got a requirement for 3 years under EM faculty. Essentially all of the 2,3 PDs wanted to go to 2-4, but 1/2 of the deans said. "No money for this, but I can give you these very nice deal on some used transitional residency slots and you can make a 1-3 program." The subtext was, of course, that the IM, Surgery, Peds, OBG services still got their rotators.

So now the score was

2/3 1-3
1/3 2-4
a few 1-4.

Things rocked along for a few years. But the number of programs and slots was increasing, and the number of retreads looking for EM training was decreasing. One year those of us in 2-4 pool saw our applications drop from 3 for every 1 slot down to near even. Meanwhile the 1-3s were still seeing 2 for 1. So a bunch of us panicked (sp?) and reformatted to 1-3. Now, I suspect the 2-4s have the recruiting advantage.

All of which has nothing to do with what the structure should be, that's a whole nother thread. And don't get me started on em/im, em/peds, em/im/critcare, proposed em/fm, em/auto mechanics, etc. But I assure you that was all politics too.

Anyway, that's how it happened.

 

[southerndoc]

em/auto mechanics

Unfortunately these programs only train you on the mid-level cars like Lexus, Mercedes, and BMW's. I want training in the high-end cars like Bougatti, Aston Martin, etc.

 

[EctopicFetus]

Now, I suspect the 2-4s have the recruiting advantage.

I dont think you suppose that more people apply to them. My feeling from talking to people on the trail is that most want a 3 yr program and the ones that dont care (like me) prefer a 1-4 for continuity. Of course the truth is you could do the prelims there anyhow. I know that Boston medical basically sent out an email saying you didnt even have to interview with their Medicine prelim, and as long as you applied they (the prelims) would just trust the EM folks there.

B

 

[EctopicFetus]

All of which has nothing to do with what the structure should be, that's a whole nother thread. And don't get me started on em/im, em/peds, em/im/critcare, proposed em/fm, em/auto mechanics, etc. But I assure you that was all politics too.

Now BKN I am applying to one of these styles of combined programs. I am REALLY curious as to what your feelings on this are. Please note my feelings wont be hurt but I would really like the opinion of someone who knows more about this topic than I do.

Thanks!

 

[DrChandy]

From experience, Vanderbilt is not DO unfriendly, if not DO friendly. There is a big percentage of current anesthesiology residents who are DO grads, and while doing an ER volunteer shift during my pre-med days, I got to work with a practicing DO.

 

[BKN]

Now BKN I am applying to one of these styles of combined programs. I am REALLY curious as to what your feelings on this are. Please note my feelings wont be hurt but I would really like the opinion of someone who knows more about this topic than I do.

Thanks!

The em/im and the em/peds tracks were compromises made within the ABMS in order to prevent ABIM and ABP from making life difficult for us by issuing special competency certificates in EM. I understand that em/im/cc route was a sop from IM after they reneged on a deal and blocked our entry into the group of specialties who could issue certificates of special competence in critical care. To get a board in the first place we had to agree not to do inpatient care. IM chose to say we were reneging by getting into critical care. It's all about money. The em/fp proposal had similar roots, but doesn't seem to be going anywhere. My point is that all of these programs were created in disputes over access to markets (ED or ICU). These are leftovers from the great board eligibility wars of the 90s. No one ever thought they were necessary for better care. Those who respect the law and are found of sausage should never watch either being made.

Well, they exist, what's it to you?

We have been very fond of taking people who are alredy boarded in IM, FP, Peds etc as residents for >15 years. Ditto people who have done other stuff (pilots, social workers, GMOs, engineers etc.) These folks are extremely mature and make great residents and superior chief residents.

Having said that, I suspect we have trained more double boarded people than any other place, even though we don't have a combined program. To my knowledge, none of our double boarded folks are practicing their first specialty today. All are EPs solely. I suspect the same will apply to most graduates of combined programs. Why do one? I'm sure the product is excellent and a graduate may make a superior academician, but I'm not sure the additional 2 years and $500K foregone is worth it, if you know you want to be a EP at the front end.

Of course, that's just my opinion, I could be wrong. But I'm not.

 

[corpsmanUP]

From experience, Vanderbilt is not DO unfriendly, if not DO friendly. There is a big percentage of current anesthesiology residents who are DO grads, and while doing an ER volunteer shift during my pre-med days, I got to work with a practicing DO.

They also have family medicine DO's historically, but that does not make their EM program DO friendly. Their EM program is NOT DO friendly. Trust me, I know many a DO with stats on the far right end of the bell curve who were never given an interview in EM there when they routinely interview average MD applicants. If you are all that curious, start a new thread and ask people who interviewed at Vandy and Carolinas what their stats were, and ask the DO's who got rejected to disclose their stats. Then the truth will show its face for those that really want to see it. I really don't give a crap though, because a program that rejects me for the skin color of my degree does me a favor. I certainly would not want to practice in an institution so arrogant to believe that their degree was the only degree worth having. These programs only hurt themselves by not taking qualified DO's.

 

[DD214_DOC]

As mentioned, I have also heard that MCG in Augusta is very DO friendly. The Aiken-Augusta area is very very nice, and MCG is a great hospital.

Were I not doing the military, I would definitely have my eyes set on MCG.

I don't know of any specific South Carolina programs, but I'm going to guess it would be in the Greenville/Spartanburg/Anderson area. MUSC in Charleston and Richland in Columbia are both associated with their own MD schools, so probably aren't too keen on DOs.

 

[corpsmanUP]

As mentioned, I have also heard that MCG in Augusta is very DO friendly. The Aiken-Augusta area is very very nice, and MCG is a great hospital.

Were I not doing the military, I would definitely have my eyes set on MCG.

I don't know of any specific South Carolina programs, but I'm going to guess it would be in the Greenville/Spartanburg/Anderson area. MUSC in Charleston and Richland in Columbia are both associated with their own MD schools, so probably aren't too keen on DOs.

Palmetto (Richland) in Columbia is very DO friendly. They average a DO every year in their EM program. MCG is DO friendly as well like you say. I got interviews from both but finally had to decline regretfully because I just decided that was not the part of the world I was interested in living.

 

[bobo]

Give up Carolinas, UNC, and most west coast programs, UNM, UVA, Hopkins, UArizona, Denver, and most Chicago programs other than Res or Christ (which is arguably the best there anyway!).

There's a PGY-2 DO at UNC.