Deciding to apply MSTP

[neurofan22]

Hi everyone,

How do you all think one should make the decision to apply MD vs. MSTP?

Specific questions I'm interested in:
1.) Does it ever make sense to choose to apply to MDs simply because you're worried you might not be a good enough MSTP candidate?
2.) If a student is more interested in doing clinical, non-wet-bench research, should he/she stick to applying to MD programs?
3.) Is not knowing exactly what kind of work you want to do for the PhD part a good reason to not apply to MSTPs?
4.) Is it ever a good idea to apply to MDs because you can't decide MD vs. MSTP, with the idea that you can always add on research experience later (if not actually apply internally to the MSTP)?
5.) What are the credentials that you think are absolutely necessary to even consider applying, those that are really helpful, and those that are just icing?

I realize this depends on the MSTP in question, but I'm interested in this from the perspective of whether to apply to, say 10-12 MSTPs, or 10-12 MDs, so any advice can assume that the 10-12 MSTPs will include somewhat differing programs.

Thanks!

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[Jorje286]

3.) Is not knowing exactly what kind of work you want to do for the PhD part a good reason to not apply to MSTPs?

No. As long as you love research and you are convinced that research will be part of your career, you should apply MSTP. Doesn't really matter if you are undecided about which field you want to get in.

4.) Is it ever a good idea to apply to MDs because you can't decide MD vs. MSTP, with the idea that you can always add on research experience later (if not actually apply internally to the MSTP)?

Yes. Makes perfect sense. Don't apply MSTP if you think spending 4 years in a lab might not be worth it.

5.) What are the credentials that you think are absolutely necessary to even consider applying, those that are really helpful, and those that are just icing?

Research experience is the most important. You should have at least a year of research by the time of applying, though most people admitted have two and more. Then comes GPA and MCAT. Average GPA of admitted applicants is 3.8 and average MCAT is around 35. I would say the minimum is around 3.5 and 30. Though what really matters is the combination of those 3 factors. For example, excellent research experience and high MCATs would override the negative effect of your GPA. Another important factor is your reasons to apply. You have to convince the adcoms that you are committed to a research career.

Clinical experience is less important those four, but it does come into play.

 

[neurofan22]

Hi, thanks for this response.

What do you think of the following research experience profile:

1 summer pre-college on a topic no longer of much interest to me
1 yr working on research, but in the social sciences, in college
1 summer of substantial, self-driven biomed. research with continuing part-time affiliation with that lab over the following 2 years (first-authored publication in the works)

 

[Jorje286]

Hi, thanks for this response.

What do you think of the following research experience profile:

1 summer pre-college on a topic no longer of much interest to me
1 yr working on research, but in the social sciences, in college
1 summer of substantial, self-driven biomed. research with continuing part-time affiliation with that lab over the following 2 years (first-authored publication in the works)

You're easily above the required minimum. Actually, that's a strong research background. You definitely have a lot to talk about, and enough to make a case about your committment to research. LORs will also be very important.

 

[Neuronix]

1.) Does it ever make sense to choose to apply to MDs simply because you're worried you might not be a good enough MSTP candidate?

Yes, but this question is asked by so many people that without knowing your circumstances it's hard to answer this question for you. I've seen people who would clearly have no trouble getting into an MD/PhD ask this and then I've seen people who probably wouldn't get into MD or MD/PhD ask this.

2.) If a student is more interested in doing clinical, non-wet-bench research, should he/she stick to applying to MD programs?

Yes, in my opinion.

3.) Is not knowing exactly what kind of work you want to do for the PhD part a good reason to not apply to MSTPs?

No, but if you're not interested in wet lab research your options will become much more limited. If it's just picking what sort of basic research you want to do, that's a non-issue.

4.) Is it ever a good idea to apply to MDs because you can't decide MD vs. MSTP, with the idea that you can always add on research experience later (if not actually apply internally to the MSTP)?

An excellent idea. You should be committed to MSTP before starting. The path is long and very hard.

5.) What are the credentials that you think are absolutely necessary to even consider applying, those that are really helpful, and those that are just icing?

Necessary - GPA: 3.3+, MCAT 30+, 1+ year research experience
Helpful - GPA: 3.6+, MCAT 35+, 2+ years of research experience, 100+ hours shadowing/volunteering
Icing - GPA: 3.8+, MCAT 38+, 4+ years of research experience, publications, more activities

THIS IS A TOTAL GENERALIZATION. You also need good LORs and interviews and essays and all that as well. If you fit all three helpful criteria you'll probably get in IMO. If you fit 1 helpful, 1 icing, and 1 necessary you probably have a good chance depending on just how good/bad things are. If you fit all the icing criteria you'll get in top-tier most likely. If you're applying for non-standard MD/PhD programs (like social science for example) you may need to fit 2 icings and a helpful or maybe even all three icings.

 

[QofQuimica]

Necessary - GPA: 3.3+, MCAT 30+, 1+ year research experience
Helpful - GPA: 3.6+, MCAT 35+, 2+ years of research experience, 100+ hours shadowing/volunteering
Icing - GPA: 3.8+, MCAT 38+, 4+ years of research experience, publications, more activities

THIS IS A TOTAL GENERALIZATION. You also need good LORs and interviews and essays and all that as well. If you fit all three helpful criteria you'll probably get in IMO. If you fit 1 helpful, 1 icing, and 1 necessary you probably have a good chance depending on just how good/bad things are. If you fit all the icing criteria you'll get in top-tier most likely. If you're applying for non-standard MD/PhD programs (like social science for example) you may need to fit 2 icings and a helpful or maybe even all three icings.

I just wanted to add to Neuro's excellent breakdown here that if you do decide to apply MD-only, then your non-research ECs will become much more important, while your research will matter less. Clinical experience is basically a must for MD-only applicants, and community service is helpful. In contrast, research will only be helpful for MD-only programs, unless you apply for five year research MD programs that require research experience. In that case, both research *and* clinical experience will be necessary.

 

[neurofan22]

Thanks everyone for the advice....

As a follow-up to question 2 (should someone more interested in clinical research consider applying to MD/PhDs), what about someone who's really interested in doing the PhD part in cognitive neuroscience? It's not wet-bench work and definitely seems further removed from medicine than, say, cancer research. Yet I know that some people do do MD/PhDs with the focus on cogneuro.

If anyone is one of those people, I'd be interested to know how you intend to make a coherent career out of practicing medicine and doing cogneuro research / whether you see any conflict there at all.

Thanks!

 

[Jorje286]

Thanks everyone for the advice....

As a follow-up to question 2 (should someone more interested in clinical research consider applying to MD/PhDs), what about someone who's really interested in doing the PhD part in cognitive neuroscience? It's not wet-bench work and definitely seems further removed from medicine than, say, cancer research. Yet I know that some people do do MD/PhDs with the focus on cogneuro.

If anyone is one of those people, I'd be interested to know how you intend to make a coherent career out of practicing medicine and doing cogneuro research / whether you see any conflict there at all.

Thanks!

This is my interest too and I'm applying this cycle. I don't see why it's "further removed from medicine" at all. In fact, there seems to be a growing trend for people who are interested in the brain (with interest in higher cognitive functions) to go for the MD/PhD route. A large part of our knowledge about the brain comes from clinical examinations, like brain lesions. If anything, it makes a lot of sense for those interested in cog neuro to do an MD. The field is inherintly interdisciplinary. Also remember that fMRI and transcranial magnetic stimulation are tools that have both clinical and research applications in cog neuro.

In any case, you don't really need to specify a lot about your interests if you think this may jeapardize your application. Saying you're interested of how the CNS functions is definitely good reason to apply for an MD/PhD. Once you get in, you can chose the lab you want.

 

[neurofan22]

Yeah, I pretty much agree with you (otherwise wouldn't be considering it)...just thought maybe others might look at it differently.

Could you point me to any websites/other resources with info that would help me figure out how competitive I would be?

 

[Jorje286]

Yeah, I pretty much agree with you (otherwise wouldn't be considering it)...just thought maybe others might look at it differently.

Could you point me to any websites/other resources with info that would help me figure out how competitive I would be?

The program websites sometimes mention minimal requirements or the average stats of matriculated applicants. It isn't much different from what people will tell you here. Neuronix summed it up perfectly. I think you're worrying too much. Your research experience is good enough to give you a shot at acceptance even if you have MCATs and GPAs on the lower border (you haven't mentioned them but I'm just hypothesizing). So if that's what you want to do, go for it.

 

[neurofan22]

I've got a helpful-to-icing GPA, but don't have my MCAT score yet, so it sounds like I would be pretty competitive then? (again, thanks for the advice)

 

[Jorje286]

I've got a helpful-to-icing GPA, but don't have my MCAT score yet, so it sounds like I would be pretty competitive then? (again, thanks for the advice)

Yes, lol. All you have to do now is make sure you ace your MCATs and you'll be all set (a 35 MCAT will be enough to make you competitive). I have similar stats to you actually, and in addition I am a foreign applicant and come from a relatively unknown undergrad school. And still giving it a shot.

 

[magwi11]

Thought I should chime in because my research background (and future) is in cognitive and affective neuroscience. Who knows what influence that interest (which I didn't try to play down at all in my application) had on my ability to get interviews, but the places I interviewed seemed to think that it was a 100% legitimate focus for PhD research in an MSTP program, and I got really positive responses from all the faculty that I talked to. Admittedly, my interest in affective processing has pretty clear medical applications in psychiatry, while other areas of focus might be less clearly linked.

I would say the thing that you have to be most careful in is making sure that all of the schools that you apply to have faculty doing research that interests you, and that you have access to them through the MSTP. There are still a good number of schools that give their cog neuro people primary appointments in the psychology department, which just makes more hoops to jump through for you. I spent a LONG time doing research to make my list of schools, and I recommend that you do the same.

 

[violarocks]

1.) Does it ever make sense to choose to apply to MDs simply because you're worried you might not be a good enough MSTP candidate?

No, because you can (almost) always get them to forward your application to the MD only branch of the school. You might as well go for it.

2.) If a student is more interested in doing clinical, non-wet-bench research, should he/she stick to applying to MD programs?

Yes... you won't be able to put up with the PhD portion of your degree, unless you work in something like... epidemiology. And even then...there are other things to consider.

3.) Is not knowing exactly what kind of work you want to do for the PhD part a good reason to not apply to MSTPs?

No. I think having an idea of what you like and what you dislike is more important than knowing exactly what you want to do research on. How can you say you want to do something before you've tried it?

4.) Is it ever a good idea to apply to MDs because you can't decide MD vs. MSTP, with the idea that you can always add on research experience later (if not actually apply internally to the MSTP)?

Yes. It is a great thing. I think there are a significant number of people who do this, and I respect them a lot.

5.) What are the credentials that you think are absolutely necessary to even consider applying, those that are really helpful, and those that are just icing?

Look at the average scores/experience from students at the schools you're interested. You'll have a good feel for it. One of the people gave me a good rule of thumb number for MCAT scores: 33. 33 or up and you'll get interviews at MSTPs... From what I've seen so far, it's pretty accurate. That being said, a first-author publication will do a lot to correct wrongs.