Decline research during summer after M1

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DocToBe2018

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I am in a little bit of quandary and I need to make a decision soon. I originally thought of doing nothing during the summer following M1. However, my friends told me that I should really do some type of research. And I applied and got an offer for a 10-week NIH research led by a reputable investigator. But that will basically wipe out my summer. Just that thought alone depresses me. I want to decline and look for something that is less demanding but again, my friends think that I'm making a big mistake. There is a possibility that I will not find any other research stints. What would be the worst case scenario? If I rank in the top quartile in my class at a top tier med school, has a leadership position over a duration of time, and do well on the steps (my school's average is high), shouldn't that be sufficient to land a decent residency in IM? My friends say no, that doing nothing during the summer after M1 will be frowned upon. If you were in my position, what will you do?

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Most people in my class did research their first summer. I took a trip to Europe that I'd been saving for since high school, and spent some time with my family too.

No regrets at all, even coming from a school that values research. I had time to find a project later on, and will have a couple posters and a first author publication by the time I graduate. Do what's right for you, especially if you don't anticipate a heavily research-focused specialty.
 
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If you're interested in something highly competitive (ENT/ortho/plastics/derm/etc) I would highly suggest doing some form of research.

If not, enjoy your summer.
 
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I did research over the summer and highly regret it. I wish I had just chilled.

If you do decide to do research, at least make sure you are highly likely to get your name on a paper or two.
 
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It really all depends on your priorities. The summer after 1st year is the most convenient time to do research. If you decide not to do it, you have 2 choices: do research during the school year (which really eats into your free time) or don't do any research at all. People match into a variety of specialties without research all the time, but don't expect to match into a very competitive specialty (although it's still possible, if everything's else is stellar, and even then there's no guarantee), and don't expect to match into the most competitive programs for IM or other "less competitive" specialties.
 
I am in a little bit of quandary and I need to make a decision soon. I originally thought of doing nothing during the summer following M1. However, my friends told me that I should really do some type of research. And I applied and got an offer for a 10-week NIH research led by a reputable investigator. But that will basically wipe out my summer. Just that thought alone depresses me. I want to decline and look for something that is less demanding but again, my friends think that I'm making a big mistake. There is a possibility that I will not find any other research stints. What would be the worst case scenario? If I rank in the top quartile in my class at a top tier med school, has a leadership position over a duration of time, and do well on the steps (my school's average is high), shouldn't that be sufficient to land a decent residency in IM? My friends say no, that doing nothing during the summer after M1 will be frowned upon. If you were in my position, what will you do?
I agree with your friends. I did research all summer after M1 and got a pub and presentation out of it. Didn't burn out for M2 and step studying because it was a different type of work than the usual cramming of M1 material. No regrets at all. Unless you want to do primary care (nothing wrong with that btw, it's just a lot less competitive overall), you should do something during the summer and that NIH gig will definitely help your app.
 
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I would decline and enjoy your summer and just rest up for 2nd year. Research is a lot more exhausting than it seems, especially bench research. If you detest the idea of research now, youll hate yourself this summer.

I did basic science research this past summer and holy moly, I regret it so much, like borderline depression regret! I definitely entered second year somewhat burnt out.

If you're aiming for a competitive specialty (honestly only derm, radonc, and surgical specialties require research), you could look for research opps like case reports, things that you can work on at home!

If not, I'd stay home, get in shape, go to the beach, and get ready for ms2 and the boards.
 
I am in a little bit of quandary and I need to make a decision soon. I originally thought of doing nothing during the summer following M1. However, my friends told me that I should really do some type of research. And I applied and got an offer for a 10-week NIH research led by a reputable investigator. But that will basically wipe out my summer. Just that thought alone depresses me. I want to decline and look for something that is less demanding but again, my friends think that I'm making a big mistake. There is a possibility that I will not find any other research stints. What would be the worst case scenario? If I rank in the top quartile in my class at a top tier med school, has a leadership position over a duration of time, and do well on the steps (my school's average is high), shouldn't that be sufficient to land a decent residency in IM? My friends say no, that doing nothing during the summer after M1 will be frowned upon. If you were in my position, what will you do?
There was DO on the forums this year that matched ophtho that didn't even start research until OMS-3. And he's a freaking DO. Enjoy your summer, damn it. There's plenty of time for research in M2 and M3.
 
I agree with your friends. I did research all summer after M1 and got a pub and presentation out of it. Didn't burn out for M2 and step studying because it was a different type of work than the usual cramming of M1 material. No regrets at all. Unless you want to do primary care (nothing wrong with that btw, it's just a lot less competitive overall), you should do something during the summer and that NIH gig will definitely help your app.
You're not doomed to primary care if you don't do research over the summer between MS1 and MS2 :rofl: That's ridiculous.

What it really comes down to is this: are you willing to work harder later to enjoy your life now? If so, take the summer off. If you would rather spread the pain out, do some research. Your move OP, choose wisely.
 
You got a good summer research gig, with funding I assume, and you want to decline it to just chill? I'm really surprised people are encouraging you to pass on a good opportunity because you would rather relax. Med school is full-time. The summer after MS1 isn't free time, it's time to build your residency app. Besides, 10 weeks of research should still leave you with a few weeks for vacation and recharging.
 
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You should do research or a scholarly project 100%. This is really not an option. Make you sure getting on a paper 100%. Also make time for fun. I am spending two weeks in Europe having fun/eight weeks at school working on my project.
 
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You should do research or a scholarly project 100%. This is really not an option. Make you sure getting on a paper 100%. Also make time for fun. I am spending two weeks in Europe having fun/eight weeks at school working on my project.

I disagree. If the goal is a very competitive specialty, research early makes sense and is basically mandatory in some sense, and can help avoid a year "off" later on for research. If not and not required by your medical school, chill and do whatever.
 
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If you want a competitive residency (independent of specialty choice) you should do something scholarly. The top academic programs in less competitive specialties are still very hard to get into. Also, you want to be protected long term so you don't have to take a gap year etc.
 
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I've always been of the opinion that matching into a less desirable specialty is a lot more depressing than spending 10 weeks doing research. As was said above, the days of "summer break" are over.
 
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I am in a little bit of quandary and I need to make a decision soon. I originally thought of doing nothing during the summer following M1. However, my friends told me that I should really do some type of research. And I applied and got an offer for a 10-week NIH research led by a reputable investigator. But that will basically wipe out my summer. Just that thought alone depresses me. I want to decline and look for something that is less demanding but again, my friends think that I'm making a big mistake. There is a possibility that I will not find any other research stints. What would be the worst case scenario? If I rank in the top quartile in my class at a top tier med school, has a leadership position over a duration of time, and do well on the steps (my school's average is high), shouldn't that be sufficient to land a decent residency in IM? My friends say no, that doing nothing during the summer after M1 will be frowned upon. If you were in my position, what will you do?

Do the research if you want something competitive, or if you're going for a big-name residency program like Hopkins. Otherwise, do whatever you want. IMO, though, I would do the research anyway even if it's just for the summer. Then you'll at least have something if you wake up one day deciding derm or ENT is the greatest thing ever.
 
As an M1, you can't know for sure that you want to do IM, or that you won't want to be in a competitive location/program. Hope for the best, but plan for the worst (the "worst" being that you later decide you want to do something very competitive). After all of the work it took to get into medical school I don't think it makes sense to start closing doors this early in med school.
 
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I think some people here are missing some points. Ask yourself some questions. Do you want to get into a residency program that values research? Is the research you're doing there going to relate to your specialty/other research projects you perform later? Is 10 weeks going to be enough time to get significant work done on the project and get a first or second author spot? If yes to those (especially the first two), I'd say it's worth it.

From talking to faculty that have been on residency boards they rarely care about the summer research project you do after M1 unless you continue with it later or do other research it relates to. They see it as 'oh, they did the grunt work in the lab lab to boost their resume'. Not saying it's worthless (especially a position somewhere like NIH), but I think most students grossly overestimate the impact that short-term summer research projects have on their CV. If you want residencies to think you're serious about research then do it long term during school or do a research rotation during clinicals. If not, then don't worry about it and enjoy your last summer break.
 
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Obviously, you need to figure out whether this will be a productive project for you, but I would advise doing some research over the summer in some form. You can get research done at other times during med school, but you'll never get this much dedicated time (unless research year). Also, I didn't want to be seriously messing with a research project while worrying about coursework, Step 1, clerkships, etc.

My program requires a research project over most of the med school years, and I got the bulk of the work for my project done in the post-MS1 summer, which have now resulted in a poster at a national meeting and a first author publication in a peer reviewed journal. I interviewed at a number of high-end IM programs this winter, and this project was a frequently discussed topic (also, one interviewer said "I can't believe they gave you first author" as if it wasn't my project from conception).
 
Thanks for your replies and advice. I decided to do research this summer. The PI is great, the topic intriguing and it's funded. I was somewhat down since this wipes out all of my summer but once I made the decision, I am okay with it.
 
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Do something over your m1 summer. If you want to travel or get some other life experiences do it during that summer, but do not do Nothing! Research is a good option, but if you want to do IM, you don't really need it contrary to what all the fear mongers on this forum like to advise.
 
Thanks for your replies and advice. I decided to do research this summer. The PI is great, the topic intriguing and it's funded. I was somewhat down since this wipes out all of my summer but once I made the decision, I am okay with it.

You made the right choice. You would have been bored doing nothing over the summer. Seriously, what would you be doing? You can still play video games and go out since you don't have to worry about work outside of class.
 
Premed giving advice and calling those with actual experience fear mongers. Brilliant
If you got such a problem with my opinions, then offer your own advice to the OP instead of complaining. Would you rather live in state where they ban free speech?
 
Thank goodness this SDN thread is not a sovereign nation.

Good job on making a decision. It's time for me start making decisions on what I want from my (last) summer.
 
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Obviously, you need to figure out whether this will be a productive project for you, but I would advise doing some research over the summer in some form. You can get research done at other times during med school, but you'll never get this much dedicated time (unless research year). Also, I didn't want to be seriously messing with a research project while worrying about coursework, Step 1, clerkships, etc.

My program requires a research project over most of the med school years, and I got the bulk of the work for my project done in the post-MS1 summer, which have now resulted in a poster at a national meeting and a first author publication in a peer reviewed journal. I interviewed at a number of high-end IM programs this winter, and this project was a frequently discussed topic (also, one interviewer said "I can't believe they gave you first author" as if it wasn't my project from conception).

Well, to either hijack this thread on a related topic, or perhaps rescue it from degenerating into a flame war, here's my semi-related question:

Redpanda, you talk about having a "productive project" and have rightly pointed out that 10 weeks is rather limited for research. I imagine that finding a basic science project that would be productive over a summer is difficult to impossible. So for someone with extensive basic science research experience (undergrad and 2 years of full-time bench work), what tips do you all have for transitioning to clinical research? It's not just productivity that prompts this, I loved my time at the bench, but I don't see myself as a basic lab PI. Which skills should I be developing in order to maximize productivity once I get to that MS1 summer? Cheers!
 
Do something over your m1 summer. If you want to travel or get some other life experiences do it during that summer, but do not do Nothing! Research is a good option, but if you want to do IM, you don't really need it contrary to what all the fear mongers on this forum like to advise.
I think the research med students do in IM is more for the goal of matching into a particular brand of IM program.
 
Do something over your m1 summer. If you want to travel or get some other life experiences do it during that summer, but do not do Nothing! Research is a good option, but if you want to do IM, you don't really need it contrary to what all the fear mongers on this forum like to advise.

For OP's benefit as well as others browsing and curious about this topic, the above opinion comes from someone who knows nothing about medical school and has no experience in this matter at all.

As has been said prior, your MS1 Summer is time for you to get things done. You are going to be busy from now until you start submitting residency applications. Can you get stuff done at other times, of course. But, you will not have dedicated time again. If you are considering specialties or programs that are competitive, it will be of great benefit to do research. It is also worth realizing that once you start working, you don't get a "summer vacation". If not having a 3 month Summer vacation depresses you, there are other issues at play here.
 
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For OP's benefit as well as others browsing and curious about this topic, the above opinion comes from someone who knows nothing about medical school and has no experience in this matter at all.

As has been said prior, your MS1 Summer is time for you to get things done. You are going to be busy from now until you start submitting residency applications. Can you get stuff done at other times, of course. But, you will not have dedicated time again. If you are considering specialties or programs that are competitive, it will be of great benefit to do research. It is also worth realizing that once you start working, you don't get a "summer vacation". If not having a 3 month Summer vacation depresses you, there are other issues at play here.

Follow-up question then. Assuming you do a research project where all you get is a single publication as a 4th or 5th author and that's it, is that really going to add value to your CV? I've been told by physicians and residents that programs won't think much of it unless you have other significant research to support it. They've said that it'll be seen as you sitting in a lab doing gruntwork for 8-10 weeks just to get your name on something. So if you're not going to use it as a stepping stone to further research or for a specific specialty, does it really have any real value?
 
Follow-up question then. Assuming you do a research project where all you get is a single publication as a 4th or 5th author and that's it, is that really going to add value to your CV? I've been told by physicians and residents that programs won't think much of it unless you have other significant research to support it. They've said that it'll be seen as you sitting in a lab doing gruntwork for 8-10 weeks just to get your name on something. So if you're not going to use it as a stepping stone to further research or for a specific specialty, does it really have any real value?

Is your example going to add value to your CV? No, it won't. Why you would join a lab or group to do that kind of work is well beyond my imagination. However, 10 weeks is plenty of time to get a fair amount of clinical research done. It would be unusual for someone working full time during a Summer to not work on 3-4 things prior to leaving. It isn't just about getting your name on something. It is learning basic research methodology, learning how to write a paper, learning how to write an IRB, learning skills that you will potentially use down the road.

I'm in the process of finalizing my student help for this Summer. Most likely going to have 4 students, 2 premeds and 2 medical students. If they don't each have something first author by the end of the Summer, and their names on 2-3 other projects, they either aren't showing up and working or I have failed.
 
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Is your example going to add value to your CV? No, it won't. Why you would join a lab or group to do that kind of work is well beyond my imagination. However, 10 weeks is plenty of time to get a fair amount of clinical research done. It would be unusual for someone working full time during a Summer to not work on 3-4 things prior to leaving. It isn't just about getting your name on something. It is learning basic research methodology, learning how to write a paper, learning how to write an IRB, learning skills that you will potentially use down the road.

I'm in the process of finalizing my student help for this Summer. Most likely going to have 4 students, 2 premeds and 2 medical students. If they don't each have something first author by the end of the Summer, and their names on 2-3 other projects, they either aren't showing up and working or I have failed.

Fair enough, so would the same situation (obviously a few less projects though) still apply for someone with a 5 week summer vacation? That is what our school has...
 
I think that if you have that little time, if you are interested in doing research (because of your career aims), you should try to find something that will allow you to work hard for 4-5 weeks and then continue part time during MS2.
 
Holy Cow, Mimes, how are your people that productive??? Are these going to be case reports? What is the typical publication venue for your students????


I'm in the process of finalizing my student help for this Summer. Most likely going to have 4 students, 2 premeds and 2 medical students. If they don't each have something first author by the end of the Summer, and their names on 2-3 other projects, they either aren't showing up and working or I have failed
 
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I think that if you have that little time, if you are interested in doing research (because of your career aims), you should try to find something that will allow you to work hard for 4-5 weeks and then continue part time during MS2.

I'm already doing research that I plan to continue into 3rd and 4th year. Hoping to get minimal 5 pubs with 3 first author. Just curious as a lot of classmates and incoming people ask me about it since our school has such a short summer break.
 
Holy Cow, Mimes, how are your people that productive??? Are these going to be case reports? What is the typical publication venue for your students????


I'm in the process of finalizing my student help for this Summer. Most likely going to have 4 students, 2 premeds and 2 medical students. If they don't each have something first author by the end of the Summer, and their names on 2-3 other projects, they either aren't showing up and working or I have failed

In theory...

I expect every student to write a case report. They either write something that they saw themselves, or they go over the video/flouro/op reports of something that we have done recently. The expectation is that they will do 100% of the writing and either I or one of the other mid level residents will help them understand what they are reviewing and help edit for content. Then we expect them to present the case at the departmental conference to get feedback from the faculty (also good face time for them in front of all the faculty). Case reports are ~1000 words, it would take me an afternoon to write it myself. My 'case report log' has ~35 cases on it right now. I don't have the energy to write more case reports. It just isn't worth it, so when clinical residents or students want something to put out, there it is. That case report is that student's project. It is theirs and nobody else's. It allows them to write, edit, think about what journals are looking for and go through the critiquing process as well as learn a little bit of medicine. The expectation is that they will do most of the work on it on their own time and that time with us will be spent either helping them with it or doing other stuff.

The other stuff... Retrospective data analysis gives weak results. You can't say anything definitive, but it can lay the frame work for prospective work. We are extremely busy. We do ~3000 operations a year. I have spent a lot of time along with another of our residents to build infrastructure in our electronic medical records so that we can generate very large datasets quickly. This allows us to say, "I want to study XYZ operation." and within 30 minutes we can have an excel sheet with patient name, DOB, medical record number, phone number, SSN, DOB, race, gender AND their commodities (35 different things, HTN, DM, HLD, CAD etc) tabulated. Once you have that, the rest of the data collection gets harder, it requires reading operative notes, looking at follow up notes, reading ultrasounds/CTs etc, but if I have lets say a 30 patient group that I need to look at, it will take me roughly 8-10 hours before my entire dataset is complete. Then you need to actually analyze and do stats. And then write. I expect our students to get their hands on this. They can do the data collection with some guidance, but need to learn a bit of medicine to be able to actually do it well. They learn how to collect data, how to do basic stats, how to do basic analysis and then writing. If they are involved in the project in a meaningful way, they should expect to be an author on the paper. If they came up with the idea for the project, they should expect to be first author.

We have a crap load of ongoing clinical trials, prospective studies, industry studies, animal models, device design, etc going on as well. If they have time and/or interest, they are more than welcome to get involved with that stuff, but that is much longer term and certainly publication in that is luck of the draw.

Publication venue ranges from our institution publication to JVS.
 
That having been said, students take up a lot of your time as @SouthernSurgeon says. I have resources and faculty that will help me out. I also have other residents that I can 'assign' students to go bug about stuff, so it works okay. I also select pretty harshly who I'm willing to let work with me. If you can't write well, forget it. If you can't program or at least conceptualize code, forget it. I'm not here to babysit. I'm here to help develop students and have them help me produce something for my field.
 
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Perhaps my previous post was outside the scope of this thread, and I apologize. @mimelim , what kind of coding experience (language etc.) would be ideal for your students? Just trying to get a grasp of the best skill set to develop to be productive. Thanks!
 
In theory...


This allows us to say, "I want to study XYZ operation."

...

Then you need to actually analyze and do stats. And then write. I expect our students to get their hands on this. They can do the data collection with some guidance, but need to learn a bit of medicine to be able to actually do it well. They learn how to collect data, how to do basic stats, how to do basic analysis and then writing. If they are involved in the project in a meaningful way, they should expect to be an author on the paper. If they came up with the idea for the project, they should expect to be first author.

Thanks for writing all this up!

This may seem like a silly question, but what goes into choosing what to write about? Am I right in guessing that the students specifies an operation/procedure/disease, reads the relevant cases, then finds a common concept or question that thematically links some of those cases?

I'm in that short lull right after an exam and I'm trying to establish for myself what is commonly "done" over the summer for students wanting to do research.
 
That having been said, students take up a lot of your time as @SouthernSurgeon says. I have resources and faculty that will help me out. I also have other residents that I can 'assign' students to go bug about stuff, so it works okay. I also select pretty harshly who I'm willing to let work with me. If you can't write well, forget it. If you can't program or at least conceptualize code, forget it. I'm not here to babysit. I'm here to help develop students and have them help me produce something for my field.

Everything you wrote is awesome, and I'm jealous of the students who have the opportunity to work with you on this. But from the sounds of it this is not the typical research experience. I don't know of many places where you can gather and organize data that quickly, but maybe that's just lack of exposure on my part. However, you are also highly selective of who you let work with you. I understand not wanting to take people that aren't decent writers, but I can literally count the people I know who can program/write code on one hand. So from the sounds of it, opportunities like ones you offer are not reasonable for the average med student to get. Your set-up sounds pretty ideal, I was more asking about the typical summer research experience.

I guess I'll rephrase my question to be more specific. How reasonable is it to expect the average med student to get more than 1 or 2 pubs out of summer research, and how reasonable is it to think they'll be able to get a first or second author on them? If they can't and only end up with 1 pub that they are 3rd, 4th, or 5th author on, will that experience really add anything worth it to their CV on it's own?
 
I have spent a lot of time along with another of our residents to build infrastructure in our electronic medical records so that we can generate very large datasets quickly. This allows us to say, "I want to study XYZ operation." and within 30 minutes we can have an excel sheet with patient name, DOB, medical record number, phone number, SSN, DOB, race, gender AND their commodities (35 different things, HTN, DM, HLD, CAD etc) tabulated.

Well now I know where I want to do my residency... The number of times I wished I had that exact sort of program set up at my institution..

I guess I'll rephrase my question to be more specific. How reasonable is it to expect the average med student to get more than 1 or 2 pubs out of summer research, and how reasonable is it to think they'll be able to get a first or second author on them? If they can't and only end up with 1 pub that they are 3rd, 4th, or 5th author on, will that experience really add anything worth it to their CV on it's own?

You are right, that isn't an average person's research experience. As a current M2, my summer research was not quite the idyllic setup described by mimelim, but it was great in its own way. It led to a presentation and two (pending) first or second author publications, but that is only because I kept working with it through M2. I also had a great mentor and some datasets to work with, but it is an example of someone accomplishing what you asked about (authorship wise). So I would say it is absolutely possible, but you need a good combination of the right mentor, right project(s) and right student. I don't know if the "average" medical student would do it, but a motivated one could. It has much more to do with hard work than innate intelligence.

I can literally count the people I know who can program/write code on one hand
Not to put words in mimelims mouth, but in my experience, many statistics software packages have very user friendly coding sections to allow for further manipulation of variables. So you don't need to know how to write code, but if you have a decent grasp of "if then" statements and basic coding structure (which for me, came from a half semester of a weak high school computer class) you can write plenty of "code" to do clinical research. If I'm off the mark I'm sure mimelim will correct me, but that's how I see it.
 
As an incoming first year student, how would one go about finding a summer research project with the potentials for publication, poster, etc.? I am potentially interested in neurology and would like to gain relevant research experience in this field. There are substantial number of neuroscience laboratories nearby but almost all of them are wet lab based.
 
As far as I know from now until you can't work anymore there will always be something you could be doing to advance your career. Personally I can't imagine many IM residency programs saying "OK, here we have DocToBe2018, top 1/4 of class, 250 step 1, excellent medical school with great clinical experience, oh but the lazy ass didn't do research M1 summer (draws a big red X). I'm sure there are programs in existence that would but if you don't love research my guess is they probably aren't for you anyway. Just my 2c as an M2 that did a mission trip over research that summer.
 
As far as I know from now until you can't work anymore there will always be something you could be doing to advance your career.

You only get to train once, probably worth trying to make the best of that opportunity.
 
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Perhaps my previous post was outside the scope of this thread, and I apologize. @mimelim , what kind of coding experience (language etc.) would be ideal for your students? Just trying to get a grasp of the best skill set to develop to be productive. Thanks!

@cs24 hit the nail on the head. I haven't done serious programming in 5 years? And certainly the number of people that can build things denovo are relatively small. What I am talking about is a willingness to take on something that they haven't seen before and learn the very very basics of it in order to help me move a project along. I don't want people that will look at R and freak out or say, "Oh, I've never done that before, and therefore I can't" or have the expectation that I will walk them through how to use it. I love working with students and teaching, but you have to be able to solve your own small problems. Those logic/reasoning skills are no different than writing skills.
 
As far as I know from now until you can't work anymore there will always be something you could be doing to advance your career. Personally I can't imagine many IM residency programs saying "OK, here we have DocToBe2018, top 1/4 of class, 250 step 1, excellent medical school with great clinical experience, oh but the lazy ass didn't do research M1 summer (draws a big red X). I'm sure there are programs in existence that would but if you don't love research my guess is they probably aren't for you anyway. Just my 2c as an M2 that did a mission trip over research that summer.
That depends on what OP wants to do in their career. If any middle of the road IM program is fine for them to go to, sure skip out on research. But if you want to keep all your options open (and many of the "most prestigious" residencies are research oriented) then it makes a lot of sense to do research post M1. Also as @sinombre alluded to, this is a unique opportunity to have someone mentor you through the research process during a protected block of time. The foundation built during this summer can greatly streamline future projects that OP may want to do if they choose to go for a more competitive residency or need research for fellowship applications. Much easier to learn the basics now than in the middle of third year trying to desperately increase your chances of matching in a specific field.
 
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