Defer DO and reapplying MD

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DrfluffyMD

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I was just thinking about this after seeing this thread.

Besides the obvious ethical issues (holding a seat up from elligible candidates), what are the actual professional percussion that will harm that applicant?

Say the applicant defer his DO acceptance for a year, then reapply to MD schools.

He either gets in and go to a MD school, or go to the DO school.

If he goes DO, the DO school will never find out that he applied to MD in most situations.

If he goes MD, there is NO WAY a DO adcom can harm his career, it’s a bridge that is safe to burn.

Discussions? Opinions?

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The rumor is that if you defer a DO acceptance you will get blacklisted, however I am not sure if it is true. I wouldn't apply DO unless ou are serious about going because once you pay a few grand to apply and get an acceptance it is hard to turn down
 
The rumor is that if you defer a DO acceptance you will get blacklisted, however I am not sure if it is true. I wouldn't apply DO unless ou are serious about going because once you pay a few grand to apply and get an acceptance it is hard to turn down

Deferal means delaying matriculation for a year, not turning down the acceptance
 
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The world,is smaller than you think. If you have defrauded a DO school by committing to attend next year and then defected on your commitment by applying elsewhere - when you are found out the bridge will be burned at both places and every other place as well. Because you will be exposed as a dishonest, sneaky person who doesn’t belong in a self-governing profession.
 
The world,is smaller than you think. If you have defrauded a DO school by committing to attend next year and then defected on your commitment by applying elsewhere - when you are found out the bridge will be burned at both places and every other place as well. Because you will be exposed as a dishonest, sneaky person who doesn’t belong in a self-governing profession.
Yeah I think it would suck to have that cloud following you knowing it may someday catch up. Plus, its not very ethical.
 
Deferal means delaying matriculation for a year, not turning down the acceptance

My bad, yeah you are right. I see what you are trying to ask its though because most schools do not give deferrals unless it is a rare case.
 
MD school could find out that you broke a binding contract with the DO school and rescind your acceptance -- or terminate you when you're enrolled. The risk is fairly small, but it's still a possible outcome.

From 2018 AMCAS application instructions: "Violations of restricted, delayed matriculation agreements are a violation of admissions processes and will result in an investigation."
 
That DO school is going to want answers when you tell them you’re not showing up after they graciously held a seat for you for a year. And you should assume they will get those answers one way or another.

You will tell the DO school that unfortunately plan changed. And how can they possibly hurt you? Any contract drawn up by DO school is not a part of the statement given by AMCAS as DO schools are not LCME
 
When you re-apply to the MD schools, aren't you supposed to add if you have applied before or have been accepted somewhere in the past on AMCAS?

DO schools are not LCME schools so I don’t see a technical need to disclose DO acceptance here
 
They can call the MD school who accepted you, inform that school that you are a dishonest person who has tried to cheat the system, and the MD school can tell your dishonest ass to kiss off. The world of medicine is a small world after all and people know other people, pervasively. Could you get away with it? Maybe, but you’d be a fool and a creep to try.
 
They can call the MD school who accepted you, inform that school that you are a dishonest person who has tried to cheat the system, and the MD school can tell your dishonest ass to kiss off. The world of medicine is a small world after all and people know other people, pervasively. Could you get away with it? Maybe, but you’d be a fool and a creep to try.

So can a guy/girl on the street call the school and talk **** about you. I doubt any communication from a non-LCME school will sway anyone at a LCME school.

Certainly hasn’t been a case where a DO school got a MD student dismissed
 
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On what basis do you think an LCME school would not care that you defrauded a DO school? Does not align with my observations. My institution would find very disturbing indeed and there are plenty of non-creeps ready and willing to come take a seat. A person who is baldly unethical from the jump not worth the risk. Are you considering doing this? Or you’re already a resident?

The more I observe and participate in selection processes the more I see that there are innumerable channels of communication behind the scenes that can absolutely torpedo a person’s future. Can be incredible what people think they’re going to get away with. Probably sometimes they do, I just see the ones who don’t. Just like some people get away with bank fraud. Does not make it any wise choice.
 
I was just thinking about this after seeing this thread.

Besides the obvious ethical issues (holding a seat up from elligible candidates), what are the actual professional percussion that will harm that applicant?

Say the applicant defer his DO acceptance for a year, then reapply to MD schools.

He either gets in and go to a MD school, or go to the DO school.

If he goes DO, the DO school will never find out that he applied to MD in most situations.

If he goes MD, there is NO WAY a DO adcom can harm his career, it’s a bridge that is safe to burn.

Discussions? Opinions?

There are a few issues here I think you're missing. The first is a DO school isn't going to let you defer "just because". You have to give them a reason, with proof, as to why you NEED the deferral and hope they approve it. Valid reasons are the same as at MD schools, basically personal or family medical issues and exceptional opportunities (Rhodes scholar, Fulbright scholar, etc). Deferral to apply to another degree/program is rarely permitted, especially if it's in the same field. Even then, schools may very well deny that deferral and tell you either matriculate or withdraw your acceptance. If you lie and give a bs reason and the DO school finds out, you think they're not going to contact the MD school and that the MD school won't take that into consideration? Professionalism and academic honesty matters in this field, so why would they risk accepting someone who may lack both?

I also think you're underestimating/not aware of the reality of all ADCOMs. My school has a couple who are not only ADCOMs/faculty at my school, but also are part of the faculty at other residency programs in my city, some in small fields. If you screw them over and they remember you down the road, it can absolutely come back to hurt you later. It's not like all ADCOMs are ONLY doing admissions work. Additionally, those individuals at my DO school are also MDs, so they have plenty of connections to the local MD schools and talk with them all the time (partially how I got my foot in the door where I'll be doing my residency).

You will tell the DO school that unfortunately plan changed. And how can they possibly hurt you? Any contract drawn up by DO school is not a part of the statement given by AMCAS as DO schools are not LCME

And at that point they'll tell you "Then we guess our plans have changed too, good luck with your career, it won't be here" as they rescind your acceptance offer.

DO schools are not LCME schools so I don’t see a technical need to disclose DO acceptance here

There is no need to disclose any acceptance on AMCAS at all, only matriculations. So if you get accepted to an MD school and turn it down, you're not required to report that because you never matriculated. The reason it blacklists you to turn down and MD acceptance is because there is a program/database/something that records all the acceptances to LCME accredited schools, so any MD program in the US could see if you were accepted. DO schools are not a part of that program, so you could technically turn down an MD or DO acceptance and apply to the other type of school without admins knowing. However, if you actually matriculated to any medical school in the world, regardless of LCME status, you are required to include that on AMCAS as well as provide transcripts from that institution. Directly from AMCAS' website:

"Previous Matriculation
Answer Yes to this question if you have ever matriculated into any medical school, regardless of what country it was in. Your matriculation status may not be dependent upon registration, enrollment, or the initiation/completion of coursework. Check with the medical school if you have any questions regarding your matriculation status. Failure to accurately answer this question will result in an investigation.

If you answer Yes, you may use the space provided to explain why you are reapplying to medical school at this time; this space is 1325 characters or approximately one-quarter of a page in length. You will receive an error message if you exceed the allotted space.

Have you ever matriculated at or attended any medical school as a candidate for a medical degree?
□ Yes □ No

If yes, please explain (space provided: 1325 characters)"

So if you matriculate, say no, and the school finds out, you're screwed.

So can a guy/girl on the street call the school and talk **** about you. I doubt any communication from a non-LCME school will sway anyone at a LCME school.

Certainly hasn’t been a case where a DO school got a MD student dismissed

It's not just a guy/girl on the street though. It would be a faculty member of a US medical school. Are you really suggesting that won't hold any weight to another ADCOM member, even if one's an MD and the other is a DO?
 
There are a few issues here I think you're missing. The first is a DO school isn't going to let you defer "just because". You have to give them a reason, with proof, as to why you NEED the deferral and hope they approve it. Valid reasons are the same as at MD schools, basically personal or family medical issues and exceptional opportunities (Rhodes scholar, Fulbright scholar, etc). Deferral to apply to another degree/program is rarely permitted, especially if it's in the same field. Even then, schools may very well deny that deferral and tell you either matriculate or withdraw your acceptance. If you lie and give a bs reason and the DO school finds out, you think they're not going to contact the MD school and that the MD school won't take that into consideration? Professionalism and academic honesty matters in this field, so why would they risk accepting someone who may lack both?

I also think you're underestimating/not aware of the reality of all ADCOMs. My school has a couple who are not only ADCOMs/faculty at my school, but also are part of the faculty at other residency programs in my city, some in small fields. If you screw them over and they remember you down the road, it can absolutely come back to hurt you later. It's not like all ADCOMs are ONLY doing admissions work. Additionally, those individuals at my DO school are also MDs, so they have plenty of connections to the local MD schools and talk with them all the time (partially how I got my foot in the door where I'll be doing my residency).



And at that point they'll tell you "Then we guess our plans have changed too, good luck with your career, it won't be here" as they rescind your acceptance offer.



There is no need to disclose any acceptance on AMCAS at all, only matriculations. So if you get accepted to an MD school and turn it down, you're not required to report that because you never matriculated. The reason it blacklists you to turn down and MD acceptance is because there is a program/database/something that records all the acceptances to LCME accredited schools, so any MD program in the US could see if you were accepted. DO schools are not a part of that program, so you could technically turn down an MD or DO acceptance and apply to the other type of school without admins knowing. However, if you actually matriculated to any medical school in the world, regardless of LCME status, you are required to include that on AMCAS as well as provide transcripts from that institution. Directly from AMCAS' website:

"Previous Matriculation
Answer Yes to this question if you have ever matriculated into any medical school, regardless of what country it was in. Your matriculation status may not be dependent upon registration, enrollment, or the initiation/completion of coursework. Check with the medical school if you have any questions regarding your matriculation status. Failure to accurately answer this question will result in an investigation.

If you answer Yes, you may use the space provided to explain why you are reapplying to medical school at this time; this space is 1325 characters or approximately one-quarter of a page in length. You will receive an error message if you exceed the allotted space.

Have you ever matriculated at or attended any medical school as a candidate for a medical degree?
□ Yes □ No

If yes, please explain (space provided: 1325 characters)"

So if you matriculate, say no, and the school finds out, you're screwed.



It's not just a guy/girl on the street though. It would be a faculty member of a US medical school. Are you really suggesting that won't hold any weight to another ADCOM member, even if one's an MD and the other is a DO?

I don’t think any prominent member of my small field is associated with a DO school...I am not aware of any DO school having faculty of enough big name in a field small enough where personal ill wills matter.

And this has nothing to do with academic honesty. Defraud? Give me a break. Family situations change, people’s need change. Say you deferred for the reason to take care of your sick parents, and happened to get into a MD med school closer to your parents, you think the MD school will cave to the impotent rage of DO adcom? Lol.
 
I’m not sure why you think MD admission dean would have contempt for DO admission dean? Do you have experience to suggest that it’s so? You don’t need a big name when you have bona fried proof that a person has been holding an admission at your medical school while applying elsewhere in violation of agreement.

When you say “say you need to defer to take care of a sick parent,” do you mean lie? Of course it is dishonest to accept an admission, gain the favor of a deferral under false pretenses, and then try to screw over who did you the favor. A person who would do this is not a pleasant colleague and I’d assume they’d be happy to screw my place over if they thought they could get away with it too.
 
The world,is smaller than you think. If you have defrauded a DO school by committing to attend next year and then defected on your commitment by applying elsewhere - when you are found out the bridge will be burned at both places and every other place as well. Because you will be exposed as a dishonest, sneaky person who doesn’t belong in a self-governing profession.

This! There is no room for any kind of dishonesty nor should there be.
 
The way I see it is risk vs reward. Is getting an md so important that you’d risk not being a doctor at all? If it is then you probably shouldn’t be a doctor in the first place but go for it.
 
My humble advice, do what you need to do but don't lie. Whatever you decide do it honestly. The world is smaller than you think and you never know who knows who and what gets back to who. It's always best to be honest so you're not constantly worrying about that.

Also as others have pointed out, it's just a really despicable thing to do. You'd have to lie to make up a good enough reason to get a deferral. Then you'd somehow have to maintain it if you don't get into an MD school and end up having to go to the DO school. Just seems like a lot of lying to me and not a good way to start your medical career.
 
I’m not sure why you think MD admission dean would have contempt for DO admission dean? Do you have experience to suggest that it’s so? You don’t need a big name when you have bona fried proof that a person has been holding an admission at your medical school while applying elsewhere in violation of agreement.

When you say “say you need to defer to take care of a sick parent,” do you mean lie? Of course it is dishonest to accept an admission, gain the favor of a deferral under false pretenses, and then try to screw over who did you the favor. A person who would do this is not a pleasant colleague and I’d assume they’d be happy to screw my place over if they thought they could get away with it too.

I didn’t say contempt. I say indifference/apathy. I doubt faculty at UCSF will react to whatever faculty at LUCOM one way or the other.
 
Applying to schools in the deferral year is a bad idea. The point of a deferral is to take a year off for whatever verified reasons before matriculating at that school. It's a commitment agreed upon by the accepted applicant and that school.

It is far safer to turn down the DO acceptance and reapply to MD schools.
 
Correct me if I am wrong.
You are technically not matriculating if you have deferred for a year.

AMCAS and DOAMCAS do not interact, so any applications are not visible.

You can tell the DO school you are doing research or continuing in on this once in a lifetime opportunity etc, or need some time to spend with family or some legitimate deferral.

Once you are accepted to an MD school you can respectfully withdraw by saying your plans changed.

This is all above board and doesnt break the rules of the process as far as I know. There are even reports on SDN about students who matriculated to DO schools and then ended up accetped after OM1 and ended up going to MD schools to start again.


And as far as ethical concerns ... waitlists exist for a reason. You are not morally obligated to take a seat to a DO school even after acceptance.
 
I didn’t say contempt. I say indifference/apathy. I doubt faculty at UCSF will react to whatever faculty at LUCOM one way or the other.

It's not about how UCSF faculty members perceive LUCOM. It's about how UCSF faculty would perceive an applicant who went out of his way to defraud LUCOM.

I may be indifferent/apathetic (or even opposed) to tobacco stores, but that doesn't mean I would want to associate with someone who robs tobacco stores.
 
It's not about how UCSF faculty members perceive LUCOM. It's about how UCSF faculty would perceive an applicant who went out of his way to defraud LUCOM.

I may be indifferent/apathetic (or even opposed) to tobacco stores, but that doesn't mean I would want to associate with someone who robs tobacco stores.

What is “defraud though?”

LUCOM sent UCSF a letter saying that one of their student is “defrauding” LUCOM for not showing up after student defer a year to take care of his parents

Student write to his own med school that he moved back to the west coast to take care of his aging parents and decided that a closer school is better for his family and reapplied to UCSF, and shows regret about skipping LUCOM or whatever COM (replace UCSF with whatever med school in the other coast) if you want.

Where is the fraud in this situation?
 
What is “defraud though?”

LUCOM sent UCSF a letter saying that one of their student is “defrauding” LUCOM for not showing up after student defer a year to take care of his parents

Student write to his own med school that he moved back to the west coast to take care of his aging parents and decided that a closer school is better for his family and reapplied to UCSF, and shows regret about skipping LUCOM or whatever COM (replace UCSF with whatever med school in the other coast) if you want.

Where is the fraud in this situation?

Willingly signing a binding contract and then breaking it.

"Taking care of aging parents" wouldn't be strong enough of an excuse, because your parents were also aging a year ago when you signed the binding contract. Your excuse would have to be a financial or health-related emergency -- a situation that would probably preclude you from enrolling in an MD program, as well.
 
There are even reports on SDN about students who matriculated to DO schools and then ended up accetped after OM1 and ended up going to MD schools to start again.

Leaving DO school after matriculating to go for MD school (likely accepted off the waitlist in the same cycle) is reasonable and justified. But this scenario is different from applying to MD schools in the DO deferral year.

I'm risk averse and I don't think applying to MD schools in a deferral year is a good idea.
 
Leaving DO school after matriculating to go for MD school (likely accepted off the waitlist in the same cycle) is reasonable and justified. But this scenario is different from applying to MD schools in the DO deferral year.

I'm risk averse and I don't think applying to MD schools in a deferral year is a good idea.
I dont think you understand. This person completed OM1. and applied to MD school while in OM1. This was a different cycle.
 

From your experience on DO admissions, can people get away with turning down DO acceptance in deferral year and successfully matriculate into MD schools?

Can first year students at DO schools apply to MD schools and successfully start over as a first year at the new MD school without repercussions?
 
So can a guy/girl on the street call the school and talk **** about you. I doubt any communication from a non-LCME school will sway anyone at a LCME school.

Certainly hasn’t been a case where a DO school got a MD student dismissed
An Admissions Dean from one DO school is not some guy/gal on the street doing some trash talk. My own wily old Admissions dean knows our state MD school's counterpart very well.

yeah, I can see where you're going with this, Fluffy. Taking yet another dump on the profession. Just be honest and come out and say it: you hate DOs and you hate DO schools and all they stand for.
 
If you sign a contract that says you won’t apply to other medical schools (often when you defer this is the case) and then apply to MD schools you are legally committing fraud. If the DO school finds out they can pursue legal recourse and if you think the MD schools simply won’t care then I don’t know what to tell you.

I dont think you understand. This person completed OM1. and applied to MD school while in OM1. This was a different cycle.

The difference is that when you matriculate you don’t sign a contract that says you won’t apply to other schools
 
If you sign a contract that says you won’t apply to other medical schools (often when you defer this is the case) and then apply to MD schools you are legally committing fraud. If the DO school finds out they can pursue legal recourse and if you think the MD schools simply won’t care then I don’t know what to tell you.



The difference is that when you matriculate you don’t sign a contract that says you won’t apply to other schools
Are you really signing a contract when you defer? Does the contract only stipulate osteopathic schools? Is that contract even enforceable?
 
An Admissions Dean from one DO school is not some guy/gal on the street doing some trash talk. My own wily old Admissions dean knows our state MD school's counterpart very well.

yeah, I can see where you're going with this, Fluffy. Taking yet another dump on the profession. Just be honest and come out and say it: you hate DOs and you hate DO schools and all they stand for.

Why would I hate DOs? Like I posted in the very begining of my time on this forum, the most impressive resident in my class is a DO and I have nothing but utmost respect for indivdual DOs.

I do hate the AOA for flooding my profession with grads, some are suboptimally trained clinically during med school. Can you blame me for that?
 
From your experience on DO admissions, can people get away with turning down DO acceptance in deferral year and successfully matriculate into MD schools?

Can first year students at DO schools apply to MD schools and successfully start over as a first year at the new MD school without repercussions?
At our school, deferrals are only granted to matriculants.

I've never seen examples of our own students doing what you're asking about. The only time we lose people is after matriculation and they get accepted from the wait list to the state MD school.
 
Why would I hate DOs? Like I posted in the very begining of my time on this forum, the most impressive resident in my class is a DO and I have nothing but utmost respect for indivdual DOs.

I do hate the AOA for flooding my profession with grads, some are suboptimally trained clinically during med school. Can you blame me for that?
You take every opportunity to take a dump not merely on the profession but your colleagues as well. Your approval of unethical behavior in this thread is appalling, and even worse is that fact that you're not getting it.
 
This has been brought up before you should have just looked for the past thread. Some nuggets of gold from then

It totally depends on the terms of the deferral, which is a contract. There is no way you can make a blanket statement about this. In fact there is (or was) one allo med school that allowed you to defer and reapply, but most forbid it. I suspect most osteo places would forbid it as well. That you know of people who were allowed to do this doesn't suggest that all osteo school's deferrals work similarly.

Whether anyplace would enforce these contracts is unlikely, since they don't have much damages if they can satisfactorily fill the next year's class, but you do run a risk of making a bad name for yourself in a very small profession. Best not to start off like this from day 1.

Someone in the pre-allo raised the same issue and here is what I said then

I am not going to cover all the 4 major areas that I feel this issues raises (ethical, legal, psychological, practical) but I will mention a few points.

***Ethical: The intent of applying to medical school is be accepted and attend. That is certainly held by adcoms across MD and DO. It would seem apparent to all involved in this thread the intent/plan here goes against that implied ethical design. It would seen that a blatant attempt to push ethical boundaries would be inappropriate some entering the field of medicine where ethics are highly valued.

***Legal: When you defer, you are signing an agreement that states you will not be seeking acceptance at another program. Most of those agreements are general enough that it will legally cover ANY other medical school or academic program. While it is unlikely you will be sued, it is most likely that DO school will notify AMCAS on this issue. But they are separate systems you say. AAMC and AACOM have been working together since 2000 towards what was originally called Physician2015. That project resulted in the MD/DO Residency Match merger. One of the reasons AACOMAS has recently upgraded their application system was to be able to more easily interface with AMCAS/AAMC. Both the formal networks, such as most DO schools have the National Acceptance Report, and the informal networks across schools, an applicant is taking a huge risk in doing the idea of the OP.

Well, once you are in MD school, there is no problem, right? Your minimum of 3 agreements (AMCAS, Secondary, Acceptance) have enough language to cover any unethical issues in applying up until when you are awarded your MD. A school can not only dismiss you at any point, the the federal government will sue you for civil fraud, where immediate payback of any loans, or at least in one case Federal Criminal Case for fraud against a dismissed student. Be interesting the story you had to tell your cellmate when they ask, "what are you in for?"

***Practical: As has been mentioned previously in the thread and as I advise students who have a desire to attend a specific set of schools is just apply to those schools on the first cycle. A year of working that will make an applicant reconsider what he school he/she is willing to go to .

***Psychological: the need for the OP to have a "safety" spot for something he really doesnt want smacks of lack of confidence, a form of desperation to make sure he has a spot somewhere, and a somewhat devious thought pattern to get around the system. It really behooves the OP to examine weather he wants to be an actual physician or simply to have the letters "MD" after his name.

On a very personal note, I find the original poster's concept wholly unethical, devious and scamming at its core, and shows a lack of personal integrity and commitment. Would you want to be treated by a physician who shows these traits? If not, then why do something like that to become one?
 
You take every opportunity to take a dump not merely on the profession but your colleagues as well. Your approval of unethical behavior in this thread is appalling, and even worse is that fact that you're not getting it.

Did I ever say that I condone or find this behavior acceptable on this thread? I think you should read careful again and differentiate attacks against a corrupt professional body (the AOA or the DO undergraduate medical education system) versus indivdual DOs in my post history. I can assure you that you cannot find the later.

My specific example cement upon a student who needs to be on an opposite coast as the DO school that accepted him due to family reasons. There is absolutely no fraud here. Again, it’s impossible to prove intention if objective hardship like needing to stay near family exists.
 
Did I ever say that I condone or find this behavior acceptable on this thread? I think you should read careful again and differentiate attacks against a corrupt professional body (the AOA or the DO undergraduate medical education system) versus indivdual DOs in my post history. I can assure you that you cannot find the later.
Eh I've seen episodes too...you aren't as bad as some. But sometimes when you take *warranted* swipes at AOA it comes off as dumping on all the DOs that have come out of the system. And the whole *DO schools flooding the system* isn't wholly true because pretty much the same amount of MD schools have opened. Sure the class sizes are larger but it isn't as if the proliferation is ENTIRELY on DOs. But regardless just an observation from an uninterested party
 
From 2018 AMCAS application instructions: "Violations of restricted, delayed matriculation agreements are a violation of admissions processes and will result in an investigation."
I love your avatar and epithet.
W
I do hate the AOA for flooding my profession with grads, some are suboptimally trained clinically during med school. Can you blame me for that?
Is your degree MD or DO? No, your username doesn't indicate which IMO.
 
Eh I've seen episodes too...you aren't as bad as some. But sometimes when you take *warranted* swipes at AOA it comes off as dumping on all the DOs that have come out of the system. And the whole *DO schools flooding the system* isn't wholly true because pretty much the same amount of MD schools have opened. Sure the class sizes are larger but it isn't as if the proliferation is ENTIRELY on DOs. But regardless just an observation from an uninterested party
how is it that DOs go from 8% of the graduate pool to 33% of the graduate pool each year without higher proliferation?
But that being said, who cares , since a large number of the newly opened schools are going to take the seats that the US IMGs were getting anyway. And only serve to dilute the DO brand.
 
I love your avatar and epithet.

Is your degree MD or DO? No, your username doesn't indicate which IMO.

I went to a top 20 MD school.

I actually went back to my posting history, and literally the very first post of mine that included the word DO is one about how MD and DO graduate have similar job opportunities....
 
how is it that DOs go from 8% of the graduate pool to 33% of the graduate pool each year without higher proliferation?
But that being said, who cares , since a large number of the newly opened schools are going to take the seats that the US IMGs were getting.
I'm not saying its not out of control. I'm 100% with you on that. But the school openings for MD schools as well get downplayed when were talking about numbers of new grads. That's all doesn't need to be a big thing
 
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