Defer DO and reapplying MD

[Chibucks15]

The real truth is if you want an MD you should not be applying to DO schools until you have exhausted 3 cycles.

or if you want anything uber competitve

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[DubbiDoctor]

I'm not saying its not out of control. I'm 100% with you on that. But the school openings for MD schools as well get downplayed when were talking about numbers of new grads. That's all doesn't need to be a big thing

It's premature to worry that the physician market is getting saturated when pay continues to rise and jobs are abundant. Nothing wrong with asking questions, but we should have at least some evidence that the job market is tightening for physicians before we panic. The truth is, our physician to population ratio is fairly low both historically and compared to other developed countries.

 

[DrfluffyMD]

It's premature to worry that the physician market is getting saturated when pay continues to rise and jobs are abundant. Nothing wrong with asking questions, but we should have at least some evidence that the job market is tightening for physicians before we panic. The truth is, our physician to population ratio is fairly low both historically and compared to other developed countries.

Jobs are not abundant. Already some grads have trouble making it back to NYC or Cali.

In my humble opinion, if a kid spend many years of his/her life to become a physician, he/she should be able to go back home to NYC or Cali to join his/her friends or family if they desire.

 

[DubbiDoctor]

Jobs are not abundant. Already some grads have trouble making it back to NYC or Cali.

In my humble opinion, if a kid spend many years of his/her life to become a physician, he/she should be able to go back home to NYC or Cali to join his/her friends or family if they desire.

Can't they do so if they're willing to take a serious paycut relative to a less served area? And isn't the radiology market among the worst, perhaps giving you a biased view of the physician market as a whole? If jobs were abundant and equally lucrative in the most desirable areas of the country, then areas that aren't very desirable would be extremely underserved (more so than they are now). Medicals schools aren't established to provide their graduates with an abundance of very high paying jobs in highly desirable areas - they're founded to train physicians to meet the huge need for highly trained experts in medical practice.

 

[AnatomyGrey12]

Are you really signing a contract when you defer? Does the contract only stipulate osteopathic schools? Is that contract even enforceable?

Enforceable I dunno, but yes when you defer you generally sign an agreement that you won't apply to other medical schools.

So it's definitely acceptable to apply to MD schools as a first year DO student, and if accepted, start over at that MD school?

accepatable? No, but the school doesn't have a signed document that says you won't do it so they can't really stop it. You have to remember too that even the number of anecdotal stories of this happening are in the low single digits.

There is absolutely no fraud here

If you sign a document that says you won't apply to other medical schools during the deferment year and then you do so, regardless of the reason, then you have successfully committed fraud. Your ethical arguments here are absolutely appalling. Why did you even make this thread? what is your point? What light are you shedding on the big, bad AOA? You want to talk about corrupt organizations? How about all the specialty organizations that let their clinical practice guideline writers do so with significant FCOI's, oh right those are all MD's so you probably don't want to talk about that.

Already some grads have trouble making it back to NYC or Cali earning the salary they want.

FTFY. Also this arguement has literally ZERO relevance to your discussion here. You are officially SDN's biggest troll. Congratulations.

 

[DrfluffyMD]

Can't they do so if they're willing to take a serious paycut relative to a less served area? And isn't the radiology market among the worst, perhaps giving you a biased view of the physician market as a whole? If jobs were abundant in the most desirable areas of the country, then areas that aren't very desirable would be extremely underserved. Medicals schools aren't established to provide their graduates with an abundance very high paying jobs in highly desirable areas - they're founded to train physicians to meet the huge need for highly trained experts in medical practice.

Radiology market was poor about 5 years ago. Now it’s back to the top 10 sought after specialty. Demand on merrill hawkins have doubled every year for the last 2 years.

It has more demand than urgent care, ortho, and GI.

https://www.merritthawkins.com/uplo...hysician_Incentive_Review_Merritt_Hawkins.pdf

 

[DrfluffyMD]

Enforceable I dunno, but yes when you defer you generally sign an agreement that you won't apply to other medical schools.



accepatable? No, but the school doesn't have a signed document that says you won't do it so they can't really stop it. You have to remember too that even the number of anecdotal stories of this happening are in the low single digits.



If you sign a document that says you won't apply to other medical schools during the deferment year and then you do so, regardless of the reason, then you have successfully committed fraud. Your ethical arguments here are absolutely appalling. Why did you even make this thread? what is your point? What light are you shedding on the big, bad AOA? You want to talk about corrupt organizations? How about all the specialty organizations that let their clinical practice guideline writers do so with significant FCOI's, oh right those are all MD's so you probably don't want to talk about that.



FTFY. Also this arguement has literally ZERO relevance to your discussion here. You are officially SDN's biggest troll. Congratulations.

If you sign a document to LCME school stating you aren’t applying to med school, it may be persumed that this document means LCME schools, rather than osteopathic medical schools.

 

[AnatomyGrey12]

If you sign a document to LCME school stating you aren’t applying to med school, it may be persumed that this document means LCME schools, rather than osteopathic medical schools.

No, if it says medical school then it means ANY medical school. If they don't say LCME only then its by your own mental gymnastics that it doesn't include osteopathic, or offshore medical schools. It doesn't matter if that was a DO school or the University of Tibet. Why would they switch to only meaning LCME schools on their deferral documents when on the secondaries it often includes language asking about "matriculation to any osteopathic, allopathic, or off-shore institution?" Your argument literally makes no sense.

I'm still not seeing why you felt a need to make this thread except to troll.

 

[DrfluffyMD]

No, if it says medical school then it means ANY medical school. If they don't say LCME only then its by your own mental gymnastics that it doesn't include osteopathic, or offshore medical schools. It doesn't matter if that was a DO school or the University of Tibet. Why would they switch to only meaning LCME schools on their deferral documents when on the secondaries it often includes language asking about "matriculation to any osteopathic, allopathic, or off-shore institution?" Your argument literally makes no sense.

I'm still not seeing why you felt a need to make this thread except to troll.

I am not aware of those language when I was applying many years ago. As a matter of fact I was not even aware of the DO option.

But this thread certainly produces content and stimulating discussion for SDN. Hard to see it as troll.

 

[Stagg737]

I don’t think any prominent member of my small field is associated with a DO school...I am not aware of any DO school having faculty of enough big name in a field small enough where personal ill wills matter.

And this has nothing to do with academic honesty. Defraud? Give me a break. Family situations change, people’s need change. Say you deferred for the reason to take care of your sick parents, and happened to get into a MD med school closer to your parents, you think the MD school will cave to the impotent rage of DO adcom? Lol.

The faculty doesn't have to be a "big name", they just have to know people in the right positions for it to come back on an applicant. One of my friends from UG is a chief anestheisology resident at Mayo now. If I worked with someone who applied to her program and I thought they were awful and told her that, do you really think she wouldn't take that into consideration? Same goes for stuff like backing out of a deferral.

You also never framed this as a changing situation. If someone has family dying in Washinton, was accepted to UNECOM, took a deferral, then applied to UWash and was accepted to stay near family, then I'd say it may be a different situation. However, the DO school could still call the MD school and say the student was an accepted applicant with deferral, and the student could be in trouble if the MD school wasn't already aware of this. The way you framed the situation though makes it sound like someone gets accepted to a DO school but really wants to be an MD, so they're trying to play the system. In that situation, I don't see schools looking at this in a good light and think serious repercussions would be a likely outcome. You may want to ask ADCOMs here like Goro, Gonnif, and gyngyn though, as they'll be able to tell you how they'd feel about it.

DOAMCAS

For reference, it's AACOMAS.

I don't know of this happening on SDN. And self reports aren't reliable.

just because you disagree with this doesnt mean it hasnt happend in the past.

So it's definitely acceptable to apply to MD schools as a first year DO student, and if accepted, start over at that MD school?

A girl in my class did this during first year. Matriculated with us to DO school, then applied to 2 or 3 local MD schools and got accepted. She dropped out of our school around Feb of first year and matriculated the following year to the MD school. Her reasoning was that she wanted to apply to certain financial/clinical programs in a nearby state that you had to attend medical school in to receive and she supposedly wanted to enter a sub-specialty that is very unfavorable to DOs (which wasn't true). Those of us who actually talked to her about it more than once know it was because she just didn't want the DO letters behind her name. As far as I know, our school didn't do anything to discourage it, but she also kept it on the DL for the most part. So while I'd say it's incredibly uncommon, it can and does occasionally happen.

Jobs are not abundant. Already some grads have trouble making it back to NYC or Cali.

In my humble opinion, if a kid spend many years of his/her life to become a physician, he/she should be able to go back home to NYC or Cali to join his/her friends or family if they desire.

Why? Finishing med school and residency means you are qualified to practice and be paid for it, nothing else. It does not entitle you to a specific job, pay, or location.

 

[DrfluffyMD]

The faculty doesn't have to be a "big name", they just have to know people in the right positions for it to come back on an applicant. One of my friends from UG is a chief radiology resident at Mayo now. If I worked with someone who applied to her program and I thought they were awful and told her that, do you really think she wouldn't take that into consideration? Same goes for stuff like backing out of a deferral.

.

I personally know the chief radiology residents at Mayo through the chief meeting. They seem very professional and not the types who will act upon heresy of college buddies.

My point is that we are training too many physicians with sometimes subpar training.

 

[Stagg737]

I know the chief radiology residents at Mayo through the chief meeting. They seem very professional and not the types who will act upon heresy of college buddies.

My point is that we are training too many physicians with sometimes subpar training.

Sorry, mixed up friends, she's anesthesia not rads. But we were pretty close and if she knew an applicant and she told me they were malignant, I'd trust her and likewise she'd trust me. It's also not just "heresy of college buddies". These are professional connections which speak to the quality of that applicant. I wouldn't blacklist someone unless I felt like it was warranted, do you really think that's unprofessional? If so, why would you listen to colleagues about any opinion about others in your field?

 

[DubbiDoctor]

I personally know the chief radiology residents at Mayo through the chief meeting. They seem very professional and not the types who will act upon heresy of college buddies.

My point is that we are training too many physicians with sometimes subpar training.

They're called international medical graduates. DO schools almost certainly do a better job than caribbean ones. What evidence do you have that DOs have insufficient training? And the grades you need now to get into DO are pretty close to what you needed for MD 15 years ago or so. So are the vast majority of practicing physicians underqualifed? Not to mention the large numbers who trained overseas. And with the ACGME standardization of residency training, why do you care? Everyone says you learn how to become a physician in residency anyway.

 

[Cath Up]

If you sign a document to LCME school stating you aren’t applying to med school, it may be persumed that this document means LCME schools, rather than osteopathic medical schools.

I am not aware of those language when I was applying many years ago. As a matter of fact I was not even aware of the DO option.

But this thread certainly produces content and stimulating discussion for SDN. Hard to see it as troll.

Come on, man. You don't believe DOs attend medical school? You really think osteopathic medicine precludes one from being able to say that?

While you are entitled to your own beliefs, I am pretty confident that the vast majority of physicians and ...people who know anything about medical education would disagree with "med school" not being inclusive of osteopathic medical school in the United States.

I think in regards to the "signing a document to LCME school stating you aren't applying to med school".. the intention of the document is obvious. Now if one wanted to obfuscate the fact that they were applying to DO schools it would of course be easier to get away with saying one isn't applying to med school because LCME schools can't track DO applications, but that is just so clearly intending to ask about the intention to become a physician.

The fact that you weren't aware of DO schools when you applied is not relevant, at all, to the rest of the comment.

 

[DrfluffyMD]

They're called international medical graduates. DO schools almost certainly do a better job than caribbean ones. What evidence do you have that DOs have insufficient training? And the grades you need now to get into DO are pretty close to what you needed for MD 15 years ago or so. So are the vast majority of practicing physicians underqualifed? Not to mention the large numbers who trained overseas. And with the ACGME standardization of residency training, why do you care? Everyone says you learn how to become a physician in residency anyway.

I was referring to clinical education of some DO schools with lack opportunity to work in resident teams. In my opinion, only large teritary hospital with associated residencies should have a med school.

 

[DrfluffyMD]

Come on, man. You don't believe DOs attend medical school? You really think osteopathic medicine precludes one from being able to say that?

t.

Not my belief

 

[AnatomyGrey12]

My point is that we are training too many physicians with sometimes subpar training.

Lol you change the goalposts faster than a prostitute at the police station. This has literally nothing to do with the original thread.

I was referring to clinical education of some DO schools with lack opportunity to work in resident teams. In my opinion, only large teritary hospital with associated residencies should have a med school.

We have already had this discussion, you realize there are a good number of MD schools that don't meet this criteria? Do you even know what the LCME requirement for clinical ed is? It is ONE core rotation with a resident team. ONE. Singular. Want to know what the COCA requirement is? The exact same.

 

[Cath Up]

Not my belief

Sorry, I did mischaracterize what you said. I disagree with the presumption that you think is reasonable to make, however.

I was referring to clinical education of some DO schools with lack opportunity to work in resident teams. In my opinion, only large teritary hospital with associated residencies should have a med school.

Is working in a resident team in med school superior for one's medical knowledge and ability (and why?), or is it superior because that is how things work in academic settings and/or prepares one to be a resident? I understand that it is superior for obtaining competitive residencies. But I don't understand why learning more from from residents (less experienced doctors) instead of attendings in large tertiary hospitals should be the only type of medical education. I am sure I am missing some benefits, but I would like to know your reasoning for this.

I am not talking about this in a practical sense, because I know right now that medical schools with wards-based rotations instead of preceptor-based are preferable to achieve competitive residencies, but I am rather responding to what you stated your ideal is (at large tertiary hospitals which are going to be wards-based 100%).

 

[siliso]

It appears that enough people have had this bright idea over the years that the DO schools who post their policies require documentation of your mom’s current terminal illness or whatever other (very serious but 1 year or less in expected duration) problem is leading you to request deferment.

It does make sense now, if you actually think of DO school as something like clown college, that you’d assume no one in an MD school would care that you screwed them over. This opinion is idiosyncratic and the assumption is wrong.

 

[DrfluffyMD]

Lol you change the goalposts faster than a prostitute at the police station. This has literally nothing to do with the original thread.



We have already had this discussion, you realize there are a good number of MD schools that don't meet this criteria? Do you even know what the LCME requirement for clinical ed is? It is ONE core rotation with a resident team. ONE. Singular. Want to know what the COCA requirement is? The exact same.

All med schools, MD or DO, that do not have affilation to at least one teaching hospital that is considered teritary should be shut down, period. This is not a difficult requirement.

 

[Darkness2018]

Way too much trolling.

 

[DrfluffyMD]

A lot of personal attacks against me here. Regretable.

 

[AnatomyGrey12]

Lol at “personal attacks.”

 

[group_theory]

Off topic. Closing