Deferrment for fellowship training and MSP contract

[vikingsfan]

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I've heard from a number of Mil Med folks that you can do a fellowship and sign an MSP contract (for the same number of years of additional obligation that comes with that fellowship training) and in turn it is served concurrently...This is of course that you have finished your payback from residency.

i.e FP doc completed ADSO. Does 1 year fellowship with 2 year payback and then sign s 2 year MSP (which is served concurrnetly with payback from fellowhip) prior to starting fellowship....In total only 2 year payback.

Please correct me if I am wrong or if I misunderstood how this works.

In addition, do you still get VSP, ISP, and Board Certified pay if your fellowship is civillian deffered.

Thanks

 

[IlDestriero]

My understanding is that you have to prove that you signed the MSP contract prior to the fellowship contract. That's what one of my friends told me who did that very thing for a cardiac anesthesia fellowship. It CAN be done, at least as of a few years ago.👍
Good luck.

I've heard from a number of Mil Med folks that you can do a fellowship and sign an MSP contract (for the same number of years of additional obligation that comes with that fellowship training) and in turn it is served concurrently...This is of course that you have finished your payback from residency.

i.e FP doc completed ADSO. Does 1 year fellowship with 2 year payback and then sign s 2 year MSP (which is served concurrnetly with payback from fellowhip) prior to starting fellowship....In total only 2 year payback.

Please correct me if I am wrong or if I misunderstood how this works.

In addition, do you still get VSP, ISP, and Board Certified pay if your fellowship is civillian deffered.

Thanks

 

[DrBloodmoney]

Yes. Still can be done. The contract needs to be executed before you start fellowship. That is straight from the mouth of the HRC guy who talked to us at CCC 3 weeks ago.

 

[Gastrapathy]

The key is that you must be done with your ADSO before fellowship. Otherwise the MSP is consecutive.

 

[bobbyseal]

The key is that you must be done with your ADSO before fellowship. Otherwise the MSP is consecutive.

Or have 8 years of creditable service.

 

[Gastrapathy]

Or have 8 years of creditable service.

No, that lets you sign up for a consecutive MSP not a concurrent msp.

 

[Yellowstone]

I've heard from a number of Mil Med folks that you can do a fellowship and sign an MSP contract (for the same number of years of additional obligation that comes with that fellowship training) and in turn it is served concurrently...This is of course that you have finished your payback from residency.

i.e FP doc completed ADSO. Does 1 year fellowship with 2 year payback and then sign s 2 year MSP (which is served concurrnetly with payback from fellowhip) prior to starting fellowship....In total only 2 year payback.

Please correct me if I am wrong or if I misunderstood how this works.

In addition, do you still get VSP, ISP, and Board Certified pay if your fellowship is civillian deffered.

Thanks

All of the above is correct, except that in this example, FP doc should sign for a 3-year MSP. One year is "paid back" during fellowship training, concurrently. Once you are done with a fellowship, you must serve at least an additional two years. The second and third years of the MSP are paid back concurrently with the fellowship obligation in years 2 and 3. The keys are having no ADSO before starting fellowship, and signing the MSP contract before fellowship begins.

 

[AFM]

Okay I did not see this thread. I was asking about trying to time this in my other thread.

I posted the document that governs that (DoD 7000.14-R, Volume 7A, Chapter 5). Here is the relevant quote:

C.
When no education and training ADO exists at the time of an MSP
agreement execution, the ADO for MSP is served concurrently with the MSP agreement period
and all other non-education and training ADOs. In addition, if the MSP agreement is executed
before the start date of fellowship training and no other education and training ADO exists, the
MSP ADO is served concurrently with the MSP agreement period. However, if the MSP
agreement is executed on or after the start date of the fellowship training, the physician is
obligated for the full fellowship period and the MSP ADO will begin one day after the
fellowship ADO is completed. Once a physician has begun to serve an MSP ADO it will be
served concurrently with any existing ADO including obligations for other special pay
agreements or medical education and training obligations incurred after the execution date for
that particular MSP agreement.

 

[haujun]

The key is that you must be done with your ADSO before fellowship. Otherwise the MSP is consecutive.

Here is a question. If you apply for last year's ISP which will lengthen ADSO by three months (July-->Oct) then this move may make impossible to sign for MSP prior to fellowship contract as all fellowship begins on 1 July.

Is this correct?

 

[Yellowstone]

Here is a question. If you apply for last year's ISP which will lengthen ADSO by three months (July-->Oct) then this move may make impossible to sign for MSP prior to fellowship contract as all fellowship begins on 1 July.

Is this correct?

No. Essentially your old ISP contract is renegotiated or superceded by your new MSP contract (which includes ISP); i.e. MSP/ISP. Your new MSP/ISP will end in July.

You essentially have to "pay back" in cash the 3 months or so of your initial ISP that you did not fulfill. So, your first payment will be the full MSP amount plus the full ISP amount, minus the pro-rated amount of ISP that you didn't fulfill from the last ISP in October (about 25% of the full ISP amount, July-October). Confusing I know.

 

[haujun]

No. Essentially your old ISP contract is renegotiated or superceded by your new MSP contract (which includes ISP); i.e. MSP/ISP. Your new MSP/ISP will end in July.

You essentially have to "pay back" in cash the 3 months or so of your initial ISP that you did not fulfill. So, your first payment will be the full MSP amount plus the full ISP amount, minus the pro-rated amount of ISP that you didn't fulfill from the last ISP in October (about 25% of the full ISP amount, July-October). Confusing I know.

Thanks! All these special pay issues are attributed to ISP being paid in the Oct with ADSO ending in June. 👎

 

[NavyFP]

Just to summarize and expound a bit:
1) You do need to have completed your initial ADSO. The eight year deal does not apply and you will be adding time on to the end of your current obligation. If you are on an MSP, this is a renegotiation and does NOT add time to the end.
2) This not only applies to fellowships, but also second residencies. So if you are a family doc and want to become a radiologist, you can take an MSP to run while you are in the second residency (and be one of the highest paid residents in the country)
3) You do need to have the MSP start prior to the start of fellowship. One day is good enough, but if fellowship starts on 1 Jul and your initial ADSO runs out on 30 Jun, does not work. You need to wait a year. You can sign for an MSP during that year, and do a renegotiation for 30 Jun of the next.
4) When you do an MSP, you are also doing an ISP. This is a good opportunity to readjust when your ISP starts. Yes, you may only get 75% of the ISP the first year, but you are now not in the position of sacrificing the ISP for the final year of active duty and able to leave on 1 July.
5) In order for this process to work, you must be on active duty during the fellowship/second residency. If you are given a deferment to train in the civilian world and are not Full Time OutService (FTOS) you are not eligible for any of the special pays.

 

[Gastrapathy]

2) This not only applies to fellowships, but also second residencies. So if you are a family doc and want to become a radiologist, you can take an MSP to run while you are in the second residency (and be one of the highest paid residents in the country)
.

Thinking about a career change?😀😀

 

[haujun]

Just to summarize and expound a bit:
3) You do need to have the MSP start prior to the start of fellowship. One day is good enough, but if fellowship starts on 1 Jul and your initial ADSO runs out on 30 Jun, does not work. You need to wait a year. You can sign for an MSP during that year, and do a renegotiation for 30 Jun of the next.
.

I am sure most of our ADSO ends on 30 June XX. Then some of us who are doing fellowship at end of ADSO will not be able execute MSP agreement prior to start of fellowship. Not a good news...

 

[NavyFP]

Thinking about a career change?😀😀

 

[Gastrapathy]

I am sure most of our ADSO ends on 30 June XX. Then some of us who are doing fellowship at end of ADSO will not be able execute MSP agreement prior to start of fellowship. Not a good news...

Start your fellowship a day late. There's no requirement to start on 1JUL.

 

[Yellowstone]

I am sure most of our ADSO ends on 30 June XX. Then some of us who are doing fellowship at end of ADSO will not be able execute MSP agreement prior to start of fellowship. Not a good news...

Not true. You can sign for an MSP/ISP the day you have 8 years of creditable service (and before ADSO ends). Creditable service is based on something called the Health Professions Pay Date or something like that, and for most of us is when you reported for intern training sometime in early to mid-June. Even if your ADSO ends 30 June, you probably have 8 years creditable service a few weeks earlier. You can date your MSP/ISP agreement to start in this 2-3 week window before starting fellowship 1 July. It's nice timing because all your obligations (MSP, ISP, ADSO) will end by the end of June however many years in the future.

 

[NavyFP]

Not true. You can sign for an MSP/ISP the day you have 8 years of creditable service (and before ADSO ends). Creditable service is based on something called the Health Professions Pay Date or something like that, and for most of us is when you reported for intern training sometime in early to mid-June. Even if your ADSO ends 30 June, you probably have 8 years creditable service a few weeks earlier. You can date your MSP/ISP agreement to start in this 2-3 week window before starting fellowship 1 July. It's nice timing because all your obligations (MSP, ISP, ADSO) will end by the end of June however many years in the future.

True, but to make your MSP concurrent vice consecutive, your ADSO must be completed. The 8 year rule is not good enough to make it concurrent.

 

[haujun]

Not true. You can sign for an MSP/ISP the day you have 8 years of creditable service (and before ADSO ends). Creditable service is based on something called the Health Professions Pay Date or something like that, and for most of us is when you reported for intern training sometime in early to mid-June. Even if your ADSO ends 30 June, you probably have 8 years creditable service a few weeks earlier. You can date your MSP/ISP agreement to start in this 2-3 week window before starting fellowship 1 July. It's nice timing because all your obligations (MSP, ISP, ADSO) will end by the end of June however many years in the future.

Here is an example. 3 year internship/residency followed by 4 year ADSO. That is why the regulation states 8 or more years of creditable service OR completion of ADSO. In the above example this doctor would be ablle to sign up for MSP/ISP with only 7 years of creditable service.

 

[Gastrapathy]

True, but to make your MSP concurrent vice consecutive, your ADSO must be completed. The 8 year rule is not good enough to make it concurrent.

This is key.

 

[Yellowstone]

True, but to make your MSP concurrent vice consecutive, your ADSO must be completed. The 8 year rule is not good enough to make it concurrent.

Right. But if you only have a few weeks ADSO remaining before signing an MSP/ISP, it doesn't much matter if payback is consecutive or concurrent. Depends on where you are at in your payback.

 

[Yellowstone]

Here is an example. 3 year internship/residency followed by 4 year ADSO. That is why the regulation states 8 or more years of creditable service OR completion of ADSO. In the above example this doctor would be ablle to sign up for MSP/ISP with only 7 years of creditable service.

Interesting. I thought the 8 years was a requirement. Then I guess you would have to wait until 1 July to sign for MSP, and could hopefully start fellowship a day or week or month later. I was thinking of 4 years in training followed by 4 years ADSO.

 

[NavyFP]

Right. But if you only have a few weeks ADSO remaining before signing an MSP/ISP, it doesn't much matter if payback is consecutive or concurrent. Depends on where you are at in your payback.

Ohhhhhh, no, no, no. Not the same by any stretch.

OK. You are an internist and want to do a 3 year fellowship in GI.
You sign an MSP for 3 years prior to starting fellowship but your initial ADSO has not expired by 1 day. This would make it a consecutive payback.

While in fellowship you would receive the MSP, but would pay back NO time. So, you would owe 3 years for the fellowship and 3 years for the MSP. That would entail 6 years of active service AFTER you complete fellowship. That would be 6 years WITHOUT another MSP costing you a bundle. Or just delay your ability to get out.

If you had waited until you initial ADSO was complete, you would be paying back the MSP DURING fellowship and would only owe 3 years for the training obligation for the fellowship.

This is not a trivial matter and the death is in the nitty gritty details.

 

[Yellowstone]

Ohhhhhh, no, no, no. Not the same by any stretch.

OK. You are an internist and want to do a 3 year fellowship in GI.
You sign an MSP for 3 years prior to starting fellowship but your initial ADSO has not expired by 1 day. This would make it a consecutive payback.

While in fellowship you would receive the MSP, but would pay back NO time. So, you would owe 3 years for the fellowship and 3 years for the MSP. That would entail 6 years of active service AFTER you complete fellowship. That would be 6 years WITHOUT another MSP costing you a bundle. Or just delay your ability to get out.

If you had waited until you initial ADSO was complete, you would be paying back the MSP DURING fellowship and would only owe 3 years for the training obligation for the fellowship.

This is not a trivial matter and the death is in the nitty gritty details.

Thanks for some good feedback on a very complicated issue. It's a shame that you could be involuntarily adding several years by making a mistake. I didn't do a very good job explaining this, but as I read the instruction (which should be rewritten because it's still not 100% clear), as long as you complete your initial ADSO from education and training before starting fellowship AND sign the MSP agreement before starting fellowship, you are able to do the payback for MSP and fellowship concurrently.

I'll use myself as an example. I signed an MSP in mid-June before finishing my ADSO from education and training (30 June), but I had 8 years of creditable service at that time (based on Health Professions Pay Entry Date), thus making me eligible for MSP. I then finished my initial ADSO on 30 Jun, and began fellowship on 1 Jul. As I understand it (cringe), since I have completed my initial ADSO and signed for MSP before fellowship, I am paying back MSP and fellowship ADSO concurrently.

Any thoughts? In the example above, if you complete your initial ADSO from education and training on 30 June and don't yet have 8 years creditable service, I don't see why you couldn't sign an MSP on 1 July and start fellowship 2 July or later. Then you would have a concurrent payback.

 

[Yellowstone]

Basically I'm saying that you have to complete your initial ADSO before starting fellowship, but you don't necessarily have to complete it before signing for the MSP.

From the Special Pay Guidance document:

D. MULTIYEAR SPECIAL PAY (MSP):

1. Annual payment amounts for multiyear contracts will be in the amounts indicated at Table 1. Officers may be paid at the rate for any specialty for which they are currently credentialed, but the MSP and incentive special pay (ISP) specialty must be the same.

2. Eligibility. A Medical Corps officer:

a. who is below the grade of O-7, and

b. who has a current, valid, unrestricted license or approved waiver, and

c. who has at least eight years of creditable service, or has completed any active duty service commitment incurred for medical education and training, and

d. who has completed initial residency training, or is scheduled to complete initial residency training before October 1, of the fiscal year in which the officer enters into an agreement, and

e. who executes a written agreement to remain on active duty for two, three or four years that is accepted by the Chief, BUMED (or designee) , and

f. who remains privileged and practicing during the length of the MSP agreement in the specialty for which the MSP agreement authorizes member to receive payment for.

Note: Based on Service unique requirements, the Chief, BUMED (or designee) may decline to offer MSP to any specialty that is otherwise eligible or restrict the length of an MSP contract for a specialty to less than four years.

3. Subject to acceptance by the Chief, BUMED (or designee), a medical officer with an existing MSP contract may terminate that contract to enter into a new MSP contract with an equal or longer obligation at the MSP annual rate in effect at the time of execution of the new MSP contract. The new obligation period cannot retroactively cover any portion or period under the old contract that was already executed.

4. Active duty service obligations for MSP will be established as follows:

a. Active Duty Obligations (ADO) for education and training and previous multiyear pay agreements will be served before serving the ADO for MSP. The MSP ADO is served after (consecutive) any other existing ADO for education and training has been completed.

b. When no education and training ADO exists at the time of an MSP agreement execution, the ADO for MSP is served concurrently with the MSP agreement period and all non-education and training ADOs. Also, if the MSP agreement is executed before the start date of fellowship training and no other education and training ADO exists, the MSP ADO is served concurrently with the MSP agreement period. However, if the MSP agreement is executed on or after the start date of fellowship training, the physician is obligated for the full fellowship period and the MSP ADO will begin one day after the fellowship ADO is completed. Once a physician has begun to serve an MSP ADO, it will be served concurrently with any existing ADO including obligations for other special pay agreements or medical education and training obligations incurred after the execution date for that particular MSP agreement.

c. Obligations for Additional Special Pay and Incentive Special Pay may be served concurrently with any other service obligation.

d. The ADO for Special Pay, promotion, doctorate degree, master's degree, and non-medical military schooling will run concurrently with any MSP obligation.

 

[haujun]

3) You do need to have the MSP start prior to the start of fellowship. One day is good enough, but if fellowship starts on 1 Jul and your initial ADSO runs out on 30 Jun, does not work. You need to wait a year. You can sign for an MSP during that year, and do a renegotiation for 30 Jun of the next.
.

Any thoughts? In the example above, if you complete your initial ADSO from education and training on 30 June and don't yet have 8 years creditable service, I don't see why you couldn't sign an MSP on 1 July and start fellowship 2 July or later. Then you would have a concurrent payback.

I do not know who is correct. Is Navy interpretating the policies differently? Although it makes sense to start the fellowship a day later you are talking about military. If anyone has actual experience on this it would be helpful to sort this one out for everyone else.

 

[NavyFP]

4. Active duty service obligations for MSP will be established as follows:

a. Active Duty Obligations (ADO) for education and training and previous multiyear pay agreements will be served before serving the ADO for MSP. The MSP ADO is served after (consecutive) any other existing ADO for education and training has been completed.

b. When no education and training ADO exists at the time of an MSP agreement execution, the ADO for MSP is served concurrently with the MSP agreement period and all non-education and training ADOs. Also, if the MSP agreement is executed before the start date of fellowship training and no other education and training ADO exists, the MSP ADO is served concurrently with the MSP agreement period. However, if the MSP agreement is executed on or after the start date of fellowship training, the physician is obligated for the full fellowship period and the MSP ADO will begin one day after the fellowship ADO is completed. Once a physician has begun to serve an MSP ADO, it will be served concurrently with any existing ADO including obligations for other special pay agreements or medical education and training obligations incurred after the execution date for that particular MSP agreement.

You will note the three bolded areas:

1) If you have ANY ADSO, it is consecutive. This is even 1 day. You cannot pay back time during fellowship, so no payback can START if you are in fellowship.

2) Concurrent payback with an MSP only occurs if the payback period of the MSP STARTS during a time when you have no ADSO (excluding ASP/ISP).

3) If you take an MSP after the start of fellowship it is consecutive payback. Will they allow you to start on July 2 vice July 1? I don't think BUMED special pays would allow that. Your BUPERS orders would have to have you report after 1 Jul to make that work.

 

[NavyFP]

Thanks for some good feedback on a very complicated issue. It's a shame that you could be involuntarily adding several years by making a mistake. I didn't do a very good job explaining this, but as I read the instruction (which should be rewritten because it's still not 100% clear), as long as you complete your initial ADSO from education and training before starting fellowship AND sign the MSP agreement before starting fellowship, you are able to do the payback for MSP and fellowship concurrently.

I'll use myself as an example. I signed an MSP in mid-June before finishing my ADSO from education and training (30 June), but I had 8 years of creditable service at that time (based on Health Professions Pay Entry Date), thus making me eligible for MSP. I then finished my initial ADSO on 30 Jun, and began fellowship on 1 Jul. As I understand it (cringe), since I have completed my initial ADSO and signed for MSP before fellowship, I am paying back MSP and fellowship ADSO concurrently.

Actually, I think the instructions are pretty darn clear. There are instructions regarding obligated service which are not, but this really is not one of them.

If I were asked to determine your obligated service (and I used to be asked, a lot). You would owe consecutive payback because you were still under an ADSO when you signed your MSP because one of two things would happen. The MSP would start during your ADSO from initial training or it would start after your ADSO from training but start during your fellowship. Both scenarios would make payback consecutive. I realize there is a certain level of splitting hairs. The problem is....when do you draw the line? Two weeks? A month? 6 Months? When there is an issue of money there needs to be very clear lines which cannot be changed. Does it suck? Yes. Should the people who complete the paperwork be well informed of the process and payback? Yes, but that is not always true and that is why it is up to us to understand the paperwork and ask questions of the right people before signing.

A few years back there was a strong consideration to close the fellowship/MSP loophole. After all, it is giving doctors money to do something they were going to do anyway. In the end, it was decided that it was a good retention tool and they kept it.

Any thoughts? In the example above, if you complete your initial ADSO from education and training on 30 June and don't yet have 8 years creditable service, I don't see why you couldn't sign an MSP on 1 July and start fellowship 2 July or later. Then you would have a concurrent payback.

As I mentioned in another response, I doubt special pays would go for this without very specific language in the BUPERS order or Hospital COs explicit endorsement.

 

[Yellowstone]

Actually, I think the instructions are pretty darn clear. There are instructions regarding obligated service which are not, but this really is not one of them.

If I were asked to determine your obligated service (and I used to be asked, a lot). You would owe consecutive payback because you were still under an ADSO when you signed your MSP because one of two things would happen. The MSP would start during your ADSO from initial training or it would start after your ADSO from training but start during your fellowship. Both scenarios would make payback consecutive. I realize there is a certain level of splitting hairs. The problem is....when do you draw the line? Two weeks? A month? 6 Months? When there is an issue of money there needs to be very clear lines which cannot be changed. Does it suck? Yes. Should the people who complete the paperwork be well informed of the process and payback? Yes, but that is not always true and that is why it is up to us to understand the paperwork and ask questions of the right people before signing.

I agree there is consecutive payback for my initial ADSO for training and education (ending 30 Jun), followed by ADSO for MSP (beginning 1 Jul). But since I signed the MSP before fellowship and entered fellowship with no initial ADSO, MSP ADSO and fellowship ADSO should be concurrent. From the end of paragraph 4b: "Once a physician has begun to serve an MSP ADO (Jul 1 for me), it will be served concurrently with any existing ADO including obligations for other special pay agreements or medical education and training obligations (fellowship beginning 1 Jul for me) incurred after the execution date (mid-June for me) for that particular MSP agreement".

I'll certainly let everyone know if this is not the case in a few years when I try to get out! Certainly not a trivial matter, because if what you say is true, I would owe an additional 4 years on top of what I am currently expecting, and also would lose out on 4 years of MSP payments. I still don't think the language is clear, considering how much back and forth I've had with people.

 

[Gastrapathy]

As I mentioned in another response, I doubt special pays would go for this without very specific language in the BUPERS order or Hospital COs explicit endorsement.

I know someone who did this. Orders give you a report month and your training start date is determined based on when you actually start. He executed the agreement while "on leave" and then started. So it did work once several years ago.

 

[NavyFP]

I know someone who did this. Orders give you a report month and your training start date is determined based on when you actually start. He executed the agreement while "on leave" and then started. So it did work once several years ago.

Glad to hear it, but it does require proper and delibrate prior planning. An MSP is not something to be signed lightly unless you have not other obligations whatsoever.

My overarching advice is that there are experts in obligated service and if there is any question, find them and ask them. But make sure they are truly experts.

 

[NavyFP]

I agree there is consecutive payback for my initial ADSO for training and education (ending 30 Jun), followed by ADSO for MSP (beginning 1 Jul). But since I signed the MSP before fellowship and entered fellowship with no initial ADSO, MSP ADSO and fellowship ADSO should be concurrent. From the end of paragraph 4b: "Once a physician has begun to serve an MSP ADO (Jul 1 for me), it will be served concurrently with any existing ADO including obligations for other special pay agreements or medical education and training obligations (fellowship beginning 1 Jul for me) incurred after the execution date (mid-June for me) for that particular MSP agreement".

I'll certainly let everyone know if this is not the case in a few years when I try to get out! Certainly not a trivial matter, because if what you say is true, I would owe an additional 4 years on top of what I am currently expecting, and also would lose out on 4 years of MSP payments. I still don't think the language is clear, considering how much back and forth I've had with people.

I would not wait for a ruling in a few years. I would talk with special pays now and consider paying back money given to rescind the MSP should they say you owe more time than you currently think. Or, if the extra time is acceptable, continue on with the MSP.

 

[Homunculus]

Interesting, my wife and I recently had this issue come up. I will post what our personnel person received back from the special pays person (edited a bit, lol):

Good afternoon xxxx hope all is well. Dr. xxxxx will continue to receive her ISP in xxxxx. But let me point out something very important regarding Dr. xxxx obligation. Records indicates that she will be completing her current obligation as of 110630. This would make her eligible to execute the MSP/MISP. Please remember the eligibility criteria for the MSP/MISP: 8 years creditable service as a Medical Corps Officer or no GME obligation. This mean that she would be eligible to execute the MSP/MISP based on not having a GME obligation.


Dr. xxxx would execute the MSP/MISP effective 110701 - 140630 @ the rate of $xxxxxx for the MSP and $xxxxxxx for the MISP. This contract would be served concurrently with her fellowship that start 110701- 140630. However please note that her GME obligation for training will be completed 170630.

The key in this process is that she entered into her initial MSP/MISP on or before she started her fellowship program. Also when she complete
her fellowship in 140630 she will have the opportunity to renegotiated her contract only if the newly trained fellowship has a increase in rates.

So if she decide to execute the MSP/MISP please ensure that the effective date is 110701 any date later the MSP/MISP would be additive to the current GME obligation of 170630. This would mean the 4 year MSP/MISP would obligated her until 210630.

Don't think she would want to take that route!!! Thanks

other than the special pay guy sounding like english may be his forte, it sounds like even if your ADSO ends on 6/30, you are ok. our personnel person said if you sign prior to the fellowship date, you are ok.

just our experience, god only knows if this is consistent throughout-- but at least this was "from the horse's mouth" or as close to it as i could get . .

--your friendly neighborhood this horse is nearly dead caveman

 

[haujun]

Interesting, my wife and I recently had this issue come up. I will post what our personnel person received back from the special pays person (edited a bit, lol):



other than the special pay guy sounding like english may be his forte, it sounds like even if your ADSO ends on 6/30, you are ok. our personnel person said if you sign prior to the fellowship date, you are ok.

just our experience, god only knows if this is consistent throughout-- but at least this was "from the horse's mouth" or as close to it as i could get . .

--your friendly neighborhood this horse is nearly dead caveman

Thanks! This info would serve well for further docs contemplating MSP/fellowship at end of ADSO. I imagine most of our ADSO would be 30 June XX.

 

[Homunculus]

update:

the loophole still exists. in fact, even if you sign your october ISP bonus (which technically obligates you to the next october) you can still take advantage of the multiyear special pay during fellowship. they will prorate it, essentially taking back the previous ISP from jul-aug-sep. i think it may be the difference between a training obligation vs contractual pay obligation, but don't quote me.

at any rate, if your obligation is up the year you start, you can sign for the multiyear pay contract and pay it off while you are in fellowship.

ie, let's say your obligation is over 6/30/2012, or even 10/31/2012. if you apply for a fellowship in 2011 and are accepted, you can sign a 4 year multiyear special pay contract to start 7/1/2012 through 6/30/2016 and not incur additional obligation. it's basically an extra bonus for 4 years. it's weird agreeing to serve an additional 4 years when you are training 3 years and paying back 3 years anyway, but it is what it is. the key to all of it is having the contract written/signed/dated prior to 7/1, so that contract will preceed your training contract.

hope that helps-- honestly without this forum we wouldn't even have thought of this, and you can imagine my BP and 😡 had i found out in august that we could have done this in june. that's a pretty penny to miss out on.

--your friendly neighborhood loophole appreciating caveman

 

[NavyFP]

update:

the loophole still exists. in fact, even if you sign your october ISP bonus (which technically obligates you to the next october) you can still take advantage of the multiyear special pay during fellowship. they will prorate it, essentially taking back the previous ISP from jul-aug-sep. i think it may be the difference between a training obligation vs contractual pay obligation, but don't quote me.

at any rate, if your obligation is up the year you start, you can sign for the multiyear pay contract and pay it off while you are in fellowship.

ie, let's say your obligation is over 6/30/2012, or even 10/31/2012. if you apply for a fellowship in 2011 and are accepted, you can sign a 4 year multiyear special pay contract to start 7/1/2012 through 6/30/2016 and not incur additional obligation. it's basically an extra bonus for 4 years. it's weird agreeing to serve an additional 4 years when you are training 3 years and paying back 3 years anyway, but it is what it is. the key to all of it is having the contract written/signed/dated prior to 7/1, so that contract will preceed your training contract.

hope that helps-- honestly without this forum we wouldn't even have thought of this, and you can imagine my BP and 😡 had i found out in august that we could have done this in june. that's a pretty penny to miss out on.

--your friendly neighborhood loophole appreciating caveman

ASPs and ISPs are different buggers. They obligate you to service, but don't complicate MSPs.

 

[haujun]

update:



ie, let's say your obligation is over 6/30/2012, or even 10/31/2012. if you apply for a fellowship in 2011 and are accepted, you can sign a 4 year multiyear special pay contract to start 7/1/2012 through 6/30/2016 and not incur additional obligation. it's basically an extra bonus for 4 years. it's weird agreeing to serve an additional 4 years when you are training 3 years and paying back 3 years anyway, but it is what it is. the key to all of it is having the contract written/signed/dated prior to 7/1, so that contract will preceed your training contract.

--your friendly neighborhood loophole appreciating caveman

Thanks for the update. Athough ADSO is on 6/30/2012 doctors can "sign" up for MSP on 6/30/2012 (can it be earlier like 6/15/2012?) and sign up for fellowship contract on 7/1/2012? Also other important point for the above example is that you won't be getting MSP during last two years of pay back...

 

[haujun]

update:

the loophole still exists. in fact, even if you sign your october ISP bonus (which technically obligates you to the next october) you can still take advantage of the multiyear special pay during fellowship. they will prorate it, essentially taking back the previous ISP from jul-aug-sep. i think it may be the difference between a training obligation vs contractual pay obligation, but don't quote me.

at any rate, if your obligation is up the year you start, you can sign for the multiyear pay contract and pay it off while you are in fellowship.

ie, let's say your obligation is over 6/30/2012, or even 10/31/2012. if you apply for a fellowship in 2011 and are accepted, you can sign a 4 year multiyear special pay contract to start 7/1/2012 through 6/30/2016 and not incur additional obligation. it's basically an extra bonus for 4 years. it's weird agreeing to serve an additional 4 years when you are training 3 years and paying back 3 years anyway, but it is what it is. the key to all of it is having the contract written/signed/dated prior to 7/1, so that contract will preceed your training contract.

hope that helps-- honestly without this forum we wouldn't even have thought of this, and you can imagine my BP and 😡 had i found out in august that we could have done this in june. that's a pretty penny to miss out on.

--your friendly neighborhood loophole appreciating caveman

Given recent change in policy regarding on renotiating contract if anyone you took ISP last Oct 2012 you will have to wait until Oct 2013 to resign ISP. This is bad as you have to wait until Oct to sign for MSP too. Those who got selected for fellowship this year after completing ADSO got screwed as obligations would be consecutive not concurrent!!

Future of physician bonuses look bad. More bad things to follow

 

[IlDestriero]

Well, it was good while it lasted. Just do what I did and kiss the military goodbye and enjoy civilian life.
🙂:beer: