DEI is ruining UCLA. Seems the DEI pendulum swings too far the wrong way.

[deleted1183938]

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His nephew didn’t get into their father’s med school but his niece did. The nephew still got into a top medical school.

You are the @aneftp whisperer. Thank you.

 

[deleted1183938]

OK, alittle harsh and I apologize. I will say detached from reality.

Your best friend is in admissions and can pull strings for your kid to get into med school which is her life dream. Everyone pulls strings to get their kids into med school. She has been rejected from everywhere else. You tell your daughter, sorry can't make a 1 min call to get your kid into med school.

Really?

I don’t have kids so I don’t have that overwhelming urge to do anything crazy for children. So… try again. This is fun!!🤩

 

[aneftp]

You are the @aneftp whisperer. Thank you.

What I’m trying to say is when you are not URM even with super high scores and grades. You compete with similar Non URM candidates and held to a different (likely much higher candidate level) than a URM candidate

And even legacy may not matter

Another telling sign is he’s male and his sister is female. So even non URM females have slight preference over non URM males (aka white males and Asian males) have the toughest competition because they are competing against each other

Notice the females makes up 55% of us med schools so they have over shot their quota yet no one mentions that. They actually (the news media and aamc) actually brag about the amount of females in med school.

 

[deleted1183938]

What I’m trying to say is when you are not URM even with super high scores and grades. You compete with similar Non URM candidates and held to a different (likely much higher candidate level) than a URM candidate

And even legacy may not matter

Another telling sign is he’s male and his sister is female. So even non URM females have slight preference over non URM males (aka white males and Asian males) have the toughest competition because they are competing against each other

Notice the females makes up 55% of us med schools so they have over shot their quota yet no one mentions that. They actually (the news media and aamc) actually brag about the amount of females in med school.

Medicine is still male dominated so having 55% females in medical school will still take a while to make thing equal.
I know your next rebuttal, which is many women don't even end up working full time. At least I have a feeling. Could be wrong.

 

[GassYous]

Medicine is still male dominated so having 55% females in medical school will still take a while to make thing equal.
I know your next rebuttal, which is many women don't even end up working full time. At least I have a feeling. Could be wrong.

why is being equal the goal

 

[deleted1183938]

why is being equal the goal

Why not? I don't know that it is but why not?

 

[nimbus]

More begging the question. Do you have an actual answer?

To your question, "is it just Gen z being too soft" has the same energy as boomers complaining about participation trophies when they created them. Did Gen Z come up with the pass fail system? Are they the administrators? For what it's worth my med school was pass/fail back in 2006. This is not new.

I attended NYU med in the late 1980s-early 1990s. It was P/F for the first 2 preclinical years, then H/HP/P/F in 3rd and 4th year. We joked that “P=MD”. We had one Latina woman from Puerto Rico. The rest of the class (139/140) was White, Asian, or Middle Eastern. We had zero black classmates until 3rd year when several black students from the CUNY BS/MD program joined our class for 3rd and 4th year. They were really smart and held their own. We only had one classmate drop out midway through 1st year, a white male who went into finance. With the exception of MD/PhDs everybody else graduated on time. P/F was the one of the things the school did right. And despite P/F, we had no problem matching into competitive programs.

Funny aside, we had 7 Davids and 7 Stephens/Stevens in our class so 10% of our class was named either David, Stephen, or Steven. And about 60% of our class came from a small handful of undergrad schools. Very diverse indeed.

NYU med is still P/F as it has been for over 3 decades but nowadays it is 26% URM. NYU and the world have improved over the decades.

 

[nimbus]

How do u expect to learn? Not everyone’s teacher is mean. But u need variety in attendings. Nice ones and mean ones. The mean ones really aren’t a holes. It’s a different style of teaching.

If u don’t face adversity getting to ur final destination. How battle tested will u be?

New grad at my place. Only wants to supervise. I’m like boy (and no, he’s not black or minority ). He’s white privileged kid. I tell him boy. Get ur butt in the room. He’s 30. Looks like he’s 20 years old. Doesn’t want to do extra calls even for extra cash. But complains he wants more money with the job. Like seriously? It’s a 40 hr week job. No in house calls. No call really. How easy can this get. But he wants to be out side playing on his computer.

That’s my frustration with this generation. They want the easy way out. You gotta face life challenges to succeed. Nothing should be all easy.

Me? I’ve done my own room all week (by choice). I’ll do my own room tomorrow than roll to my locums job and do solo overnight call at my other job and make even more. This type of work ethic starts early. From attendings (not all) yelling at me also. Everyone has been yelled at at some point in their training.

You take the good and bad. You grow up.

If everyone treats you with kid gloves. How will you deal with real conflict?

I’m probably older than you and I was never yelled at during residency.

 

[Goro]

What I’m trying to say is when you are not URM even with super high scores and grades. You compete with similar Non URM candidates and held to a different (likely much higher candidate level) than a URM candidate

And even legacy may not matter

Another telling sign is he’s male and his sister is female. So even non URM females have slight preference over non URM males (aka white males and Asian males) have the toughest competition because they are competing against each other

Notice the females makes up 55% of us med schools so they have over shot their quota yet no one mentions that. They actually (the news media and aamc) actually brag about the amount of females in med school.

Merit is not merely about stats of applicants. We've learned that one has a 3.4 GPA and an MCAT of 505, one can handle med school.

And men have dominated Medicine for centuries. It's OK that the numbers have changed.

 

[JOHNBROCHILL]

Merit is not merely about stats of applicants. We've learned that one has a 3.4 GPA and an MCAT of 505, one can handle med school.

And men have dominated Medicine for centuries. It's OK that the numbers have changed.

You think young boys should pay for the sins of their forefathers? What in the misandrist world am I reading?

Girls are crushing the boys right now from elementary on. The societal response should be

Why are the boys now falling behind, what can we do for them?

Instead, the response is

Good

 

[Goro]

You think young boys should pay for the sins of their forefathers? What in the misandrist world am I reading?

Girls are crushing the boys right now from elementary on. The societal response should be

Why are the boys now falling behind, what can we do for them?

Instead, the response is

Good

The boys aren't applying. The girls aren't being favored.

 

[JOHNBROCHILL]

The boys aren't applying. The girls aren't being favored.

You are right more girls than boys are applying and more girls are going to college to get them to that point of applying.

We clearly lose the boys somewhere along the way from primary school to college. They become disengaged from school and follow other paths, some less desirable. But nobody talks about it or cares. This is why the second part of your comment bugged me.

 

[Goro]

You are right more girls than boys are applying and more girls are going to college to get them to that point of applying.

We clearly lose the boys somewhere along the way from primary school to college. They become disengaged from school and follow other paths, some less desirable. But nobody talks about it or cares. This is why the second part of your comment bugged me.

This is a far bigger issue than what this thread can cover.

Unless all those boys are wising up that one can avoid student debt and make tons of money by being in the vocational trades???

 

[aneftp]

Med school applicants and acceptance rates cycle over the decades

https://www.aamc.org/media/71336/download

https://www.aamc.org/media/8661/download

History data suggest 1976 (probably Bakke vs board of regents California in 1978 case affirmative action was super hard to get into med school

1996 also super hard to get into med school

2021 as well.

Based on percentage of lcme med school slots vs applicants

So looking at historical data. 1990 and 2001 were the easiest years to get into medical school.

 

[rowsdower88]

But nobody talks about it or cares.

Lots of people care and are talking about it. I read this book and recommend it.

"Of Boys and Men: Why the Modern Male Is Struggling, Why It Matters, and What to Do about It" by Richard Reeves

Of Boys and Men: Why the Modern Male Is Struggling, Why…

"A landmark, one of the most important books of the yea…

www.goodreads.com

I understood Goro's post to be saying something like "it's ok that there are fluctuations wrt total admissions of women and men" not "it's ok that men are falling behind".

 

[turnupthegas]

One thing that one of the Ortho surgeons brought up the other day at work is that while we are seeing more woman entering historically male dominated specialties we may be effectively only graduating 0.5-0.6 of a full time doc since many woman finish training they often take on part time roles once they have kids. Some leave all together. This will impact access to care at some point. Of course gender roles are changing. Just something to note. Every place I have worked most of the women are per diem, part time, or on the mommy track. Full partner call is rare.

 

[deleted1183938]

One thing that one of the Ortho surgeons brought up the other day at work is that while we are seeing more woman entering historically male dominated specialties we may be effectively only graduating 0.5-0.6 of a full time doc since many woman finish training they often take on part time roles once they have kids. Some leave all together. This will impact access to care at some point. Of course gender roles are changing. Just something to note. Every place I have worked most of the women are per diem, part time, or on the mommy track. Full partner call is rare.

Maybe they need more supportive spouses. But men don't want to talk about that.

 

[Agast]

One thing that one of the Ortho surgeons brought up the other day at work is that while we are seeing more woman entering historically male dominated specialties we may be effectively only graduating 0.5-0.6 of a full time doc since many woman finish training they often take on part time roles once they have kids. Some leave all together. This will impact access to care at some point. Of course gender roles are changing. Just something to note. Every place I have worked most of the women are per diem, part time, or on the mommy track. Full partner call is rare.

People were wringing their hands over this when I went to medical school in 2010.

Now all the men are trying to FIRE and no one says a beep about men leaving the workforce early to spend time on traveling and enjoying life!

 

[deleted1183938]

People were wringing their hands over this when I went to medical school in 2010.

Now all the men are trying to FIRE and no one says a beep about men leaving the workforce early to spend time on traveling and enjoying life!

Nope. Let’s just blame the women instead.

 

[abolt18]

People were wringing their hands over this when I went to medical school in 2010.

Now all the men are trying to FIRE and no one says a beep about men leaving the workforce early to spend time on traveling and enjoying life!

I see lots of men TALKING about this but none actually doing it, at least not in my circles. I have seen some go to 80% of full time or give up a bunch of call shifts in the name of better quality of life, but definitely haven't seen any backing down to part time or leaving medicine altogether before a normal retirement age. I would consider myself on the FI traine (not RE), so I can slow down a lot, work less call, take more vacation, and hopefully have a lot more longevity to my career.

I have, however, worked with a lot of women who are part time or PRN because of the flexibility they want/need as a mother. Have also seen several leave medicine altogether in their 30s-40s due to their spouse earning enough money and them not needing to earn money. (Have also worked with plenty of women working full time and crushing it).

I am not critical of it in any way. I think people should do whatever works best for their personal needs. Just pointing out my personal observations.

 

[Gern Blansten]

People were wringing their hands over this when I went to medical school in 2010.

Now all the men are trying to FIRE and no one says a beep about men leaving the workforce early to spend time on traveling and enjoying life!

I don't know a single person who has done the FIRE route. The other circumstance, yeah, about 30% of people I know in that circumstance are part time or no longer practicing.

 

[Agast]

Meanwhile in this thread the men are talking about cutting hours to be more present, and no one is worried they’re leaving the workforce?

How to Be a Present Parent

Any tips from the more senior members. I have a newborn at home and plan to have another child. Half my partners seem to be absent parents and the other half are part timers. I'm just worried that with my typical three overnight OB shifts and three in house OR calls a month that I will miss...

forums.studentdoctor.net

The greatest benefit of women entering spaces traditionally held by men is the introduction of work-life balance

 

[abolt18]

Meanwhile in this thread the men are talking about cutting hours to be more present, and no one is worried they’re leaving the workforce?

How to Be a Present Parent

Any tips from the more senior members. I have a newborn at home and plan to have another child. Half my partners seem to be absent parents and the other half are part timers. I'm just worried that with my typical three overnight OB shifts and three in house OR calls a month that I will miss...

forums.studentdoctor.net

The greatest benefit of women entering spaces traditionally held by men is the introduction of work-life balance

Yes, cutting down to closer to 35-45 hours per week instead of 50-65/week. Not worried about them leaving the workforce.

But in all honesty, I don't worry about anyone leaving the work force. I don't even care in the slightest about how much other people want to work.

 

[deleted1183938]

Yes, cutting down to closer to 35-45 hours per week instead of 50-65/week. Not worried about them leaving the workforce.

But in all honesty, I don't worry about anyone leaving the work force. I don't even care in the slightest about how much other people want to work.

Most physician women are NOT leaving the workforce. Only a small minority are. Many are going “mommy track” or cutting down their hours and people seem to have a problem with this but not when men do the same.

 

[nimbus]

Yes, cutting down to closer to 35-45 hours per week instead of 50-65/week. Not worried about them leaving the workforce.

But in all honesty, I don't worry about anyone leaving the work force. I don't even care in the slightest about how much other people want to work.

That’s a 30% cut in productivity. Are we producing 50% more anesthesiologists to compensate?

 

[abolt18]

That’s a 30% cut in productivity. Are we producing 50% more anesthesiologists to compensate?

I don't think it is our responsibility to have "enough" people to provide anesthesia for every possible case in the country. My #1 responsibility is to my family, #2 is my job and community.

The reality is, there is so much unnecessary surgery happening on the regular that if docs all chose to work a normal 40ish hours/week, that they would simply have to start triaging and prioritizing surgeries based more on necessity. Far from the end of the world.

 

[aneftp]

I don't think it is our responsibility to have "enough" people to provide anesthesia for every possible case in the country. My #1 responsibility is to my family, #2 is my job and community.

The reality is, there is so much unnecessary surgery happening on the regular that if docs all chose to work a normal 40ish hours/week, that they would simply have to start triaging and prioritizing surgeries based more on necessity. Far from the end of the world.

That’s the beauty for doing locums work for anesthesia these days. There is more than enough work going around for everyone. Unfortunately, not enough full time anesthesia staff. Every place is short staff now w2. MD and crnas. Every place I know that get fully staffed MD. Gets short staff 1 year later. One place in central Florida got fully staffed w2 crnas. Very nice hospital. No locums crnas. Easy place. Guess what? That lasted around 6 months because admin wanted to run more rooms. And the (3) 0.5 and 0.75 crna said F it and quit. So you went from having the equivalent of 2.0 fte crnas to now down 2 fte. That’s the idiotic nature of things these days.

Hospitals administrators are so far dumb enough (or still in the black making money after hours) to keep insisting on doing scheduled elective cs at 9am on Sunday morning at a trauma facility. Waste of resources

 

[kidthor]

The reality is, there is so much unnecessary surgery happening on the regular that if docs all chose to work a normal 40ish hours/week, that they would simply have to start triaging and prioritizing surgeries based more on necessity. Far from the end of the world.

I think this is a major root of the “shortage” - so much surgery is unnecessary and unoptimized. Fix those two issues and there’s probably be no shortage at all…

That said, call-taking is another thing. Most of these places want or need 24/7 anesthesia call coverage but they don’t want to pay for it. But luckily now with all these gig workers the hospitals have to pay what things are worth.

 

[psycho-matic]

I don't know a single person who has done the FIRE route. The other circumstance, yeah, about 30% of people I know in that circumstance are part time or no longer practicing.

What does FIRE stand for?

 

[Gern Blansten]

What does FIRE stand for?

Financial independence-retire early