DEI is ruining UCLA. Seems the DEI pendulum swings too far the wrong way.

[mmag]

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View attachment 387417

2-3 more black students.

No evidence has been presented that this is a deviation from years prior to 2019.

It would be interesting to see if the asian and white students are hiding in "other".

The half Asian half white students are "hiding" in other

 

[BLADEMDA]

View attachment 387417

2-3 more black students.

No evidence has been presented that this is a deviation from years prior to 2019.

It would be interesting to see if the asian and white students are hiding in "other".

No evidence this hurts you unless you are Asian American.

 

[aneftp]

No evidence this hurts you unless you are Asian American.

Correct.

DEI supporters (again through their narrow lenses ) feel it’s for the better of society. It’s ok if 1-2 Asians don’t get in (unless u are those 1-2 Asians)

And That for the better society better to have 1-2 URM in because holistically it’s for the better.

On a side note. Females now make up 54% of USA med schools. What if females go to 60% of USA med students soon?? Will we get DEI for male students?? Think about that.

 

[rowsdower88]

The half Asian half white students are "hiding" in other

If we accept the idea that selecting black or hispanic confers benefit to your application, why would any black or hispanic student select "other" if they could justifiably select black/hispanic?

Other could justifiably include mixed race individuals who are white/asian presenting as you suggest.

This is presuming good faith in the application process.

 

[rowsdower88]

Will we get DEI for male students?? Think about that.

Is there a disparity in healthcare outcomes for men that is comparable to the black population that we need to try to correct for?

 

[triggermaster]

Is there a disparity in healthcare outcomes for men that is comparable to the black population that we need to try to correct for?

The disparity isn’t due to the race of the doctors and nurses. The disparity starts at home.

 

[aneftp]

If we accept the idea that selecting black or hispanic confers benefit to your application, why would any black or hispanic student select "other" if they could justifiably select black/hispanic?

Other could justifiably include mixed race individuals who are white presenting.

This is presuming good faith in the application process.

There are 1/4 Hispanics who claim Hispanic on the list to up their chances. I was joking with one of the “Latinos” docs I do locums with. Dude just as white as everyone else. He just happens to have Hispanic last name. But dude is white really.

 

[rowsdower88]

The disparity isn’t due to the race of the doctors and nurses. The disparity starts at home.

Sure. The disparity is absolutely multifactorial in nature. You can believe it's due to absent fathers or listening to the wrong kind of music, whatever.

But it would be weird for a Doctor to say "sorry, we can't try to fix this problem because we don't agree on the root cause" or "this partial remedy won't fix the root cause." We have a whole field of medicine dedicated to addressing the problems of terminal cancer patients. (Cancer is probably a comparable analogy to the intractability of black healthcare outcomes.)

We generally make individual/policy healthcare decisions based on their predicted benefits and costs. We take our patients as they come to us.

 

[rowsdower88]

There are 1/4 Hispanics who claim Hispanic on the list to up their chances. I was joking with one of the “Latinos” docs I do locums with. Dude just as white as everyone else. He just happens to have Hispanic last name. But dude is white really.

The presumption of good faith isn't always warranted.

 

[triggermaster]

Sure. The disparity is absolutely multifactorial in nature. You can believe it's due to absent fathers or listening to the wrong kind of music, whatever.

But it would be weird for a Doctor to say "sorry, we can't try to fix this problem because we don't agree on the root cause" or "this partial remedy won't fix the root cause." We have a whole field of medicine dedicated to addressing the problems of terminal cancer patients. (Cancer is probably a comparable analogy to the intractability of black healthcare outcomes.)

We generally make individual/policy healthcare decisions based on their predicted benefits and costs. We take our patients as they come to us.

Thanks for straw-manning the argument pretending it’s about fathers and music.

Why don’t you try to steel-man my argument and see if your disagreement goes away?

 

[rowsdower88]

Thanks for straw-manning the argument pretending it’s about fathers and music.

Why don’t you try to steel-man my argument and see if your disagreement goes away?

More sarcastic than strawmanning, but fine. Pick any of the causes you want. (higher rates of poverty, homelessness, incarceration, debt etc... there are studies that still show disparities persists despite controlling for these)

My point was that the causes of black healthcare disparities matter much less than using available options we have for remedy. (We don't choose our patients.)

I can't think of any causes for which having more black docs would worsen the disparity, but maybe I don't have a big enough imagination.

 

[triggermaster]

More sarcastic than strawmanning, but fine. Pick any of the causes you want. (higher rates of poverty, homelessness, incarceration, debt etc... there are studies that still show disparities persists despite controlling for these)

My point was that the causes of black healthcare disparities matter much less than using available options we have for remedy. (We don't choose our patients.)

I can't think of any causes for which having more black docs would worsen the disparity, but maybe I don't have a big enough imagination.

That’s all fine but still wouldn’t justify racist admissions policies.

 

[rowsdower88]

That’s all fine but still wouldn’t justify racist admissions policies.

That's an ethical claim that rests on the idea that we have no (or to be fair, an extremely limited) moral duty to reduce black healthcare disparities through available means.

I think we have that duty (as physicians, not as regular people) but others are free to disagree.

Moral duty/moral obligation are by no means easy concepts to agree on.

I would say "using racial preference to a limited extent in the pursuit of an ethical outcome" in place of "racist". But if those are synonymous to you, I understand.

 

[pgg]

Is there a disparity in healthcare outcomes for men that is comparable to the black population that we need to try to correct for?

You're fixated on correcting population level harms with AA and DEI measures. They're skeptical those harms exist, or are significant, or could be fixed with AA or DEI initiatives.

They're fixated on correcting the unfairness to medical school applicants. You're skeptical that harm exists.

You're talking past each other, not interested in the same problems or even agreeing the same problems exist.

 

[deleted1183938]

There are 1/4 Hispanics who claim Hispanic on the list to up their chances. I was joking with one of the “Latinos” docs I do locums with. Dude just as white as everyone else. He just happens to have Hispanic last name. But dude is white really.

Hispanics are actually classified by this made up race rule of White with Hispanic Descent or Black with Hispanic decent. They can go either way. Is this news to you?
He has a Hispanic last name for a reason. Somewhere in his past a forefather was Hispanic of some sort.
And I guess you haven’t met many South Americans who can be Lily white from Germany or anywhere else in Europe due to ancestry but they have been in America Del Sur for centuries.
Learn some history you American

 

[mmag]

Hispanics are actually classified by this made up race rule of White with Hispanic Descent or Black with Hispanic decent. They can go either way. Is this news to you?
He has a Hispanic last name for a reason. Somewhere in his past a forefather was Hispanic of some sort.
And I guess you haven’t met many South Americans who can be Lily white from Germany or anywhere else in Europe due to ancestry but they have been in America Del Sur for centuries.
Learn some history you American

It's arbitrary. Of course Asians are specifically excluded from being "Hispanic" ie all the brown Filipinos with last names like Garcia, Cruz, Reyes whose country of origin was also ruled by Spain as a colony.



"Officially, Brazilians are not considered Hispanic or Latino because the federal government’s definition – last revised in 1997 – applies only to those of “Spanish culture or origin.” In most cases, people who report their Hispanic or Latino ethnicity as Brazilian in Census Bureau surveys are later recategorized – or “back coded” – as not Hispanic or Latino. The same is true for people with origins in Belize, the Philippines and Portugal."

Who is Hispanic?

The Census Bureau estimates there were 65.2 million Hispanics in the U.S. as of July 2023, a new high. They made up more than 19% of the nation’s population.

www.pewresearch.org

 

[Gern Blansten]

It's arbitrary. Of course Asians are specifically excluded from being "Hispanic" ie all the brown Filipinos with last names like Garcia, Cruz, Reyes whose country of origin was also ruled by Spain as a colony.



"Officially, Brazilians are not considered Hispanic or Latino because the federal government’s definition – last revised in 1997 – applies only to those of “Spanish culture or origin.” In most cases, people who report their Hispanic or Latino ethnicity as Brazilian in Census Bureau surveys are later recategorized – or “back coded” – as not Hispanic or Latino. The same is true for people with origins in Belize, the Philippines and Portugal."

Who is Hispanic?

The Census Bureau estimates there were 65.2 million Hispanics in the U.S. as of July 2023, a new high. They made up more than 19% of the nation’s population.

www.pewresearch.org

So, it seems like you are saying that she is very wrong in her assessment, even after denigrating the entire "American" culture for not knowing any history. Shocking.

 

[aneftp]

I do think it’s best for candidates to not check ethnic boxes. They should eliminate them all together

But have each candidate write an essay how race and poverty has affected them growing up.

That will weed the rich black/Hispanic kids who really don’t deserve preference over poor while/asian kid. This will make school really have did dig deep into reading applications. And how to evaluate candidates.

 

[deleted1183938]

It's arbitrary. Of course Asians are specifically excluded from being "Hispanic" ie all the brown Filipinos with last names like Garcia, Cruz, Reyes whose country of origin was also ruled by Spain as a colony.



"Officially, Brazilians are not considered Hispanic or Latino because the federal government’s definition – last revised in 1997 – applies only to those of “Spanish culture or origin.” In most cases, people who report their Hispanic or Latino ethnicity as Brazilian in Census Bureau surveys are later recategorized – or “back coded” – as not Hispanic or Latino. The same is true for people with origins in Belize, the Philippines and Portugal."

Who is Hispanic?

The Census Bureau estimates there were 65.2 million Hispanics in the U.S. as of July 2023, a new high. They made up more than 19% of the nation’s population.

www.pewresearch.org

Never knew of this for Brazilian. I would claim it all the way. It’s Latin America after all.

 

[deleted1183938]

So, it seems like you are saying that she is very wrong in her assessment, even after denigrating the entire "American" culture for not knowing any history. Shocking.

What’s your beef with me? I don’t even know you or have gone after you. Maybe I have but done remember.
This is all common knowledge to anyone who’s lived in America long enough or born in America as they claim. Except maybe for the Brazilian part.
And since you missed the point entirely and personalized this and came to your friends defense, I was talking after that specific American. Not the entire 350 million people. 😂😂😂😂
Are you one of those people who always has to be right or be the last man standing? 😂😂😂😂

 

[GassYous]

I do think it’s best for candidates to not check ethnic boxes. They should eliminate them all together

But have each candidate write an essay how race and poverty has affected them growing up.

That will weed the rich black/Hispanic kids who really don’t deserve preference over poor while/asian kid. This will make school really have did dig deep into reading applications. And how to evaluate candidates.

I don't agree that poor people have some inherent desirability that makes them deserving of special consideration.

 

[rowsdower88]

I do think it’s best for candidates to not check ethnic boxes. They should eliminate them all together

But have each candidate write an essay how race and poverty has affected them growing up.

That will weed the rich black/Hispanic kids who really don’t deserve preference over poor while/asian kid. This will make school really have did dig deep into reading applications. And how to evaluate candidates.

Sounds like you're ok with racial preferences with an extra step? Ok, this could be the outcome of the SFFA decision. Presumably white and asian students' personal statements will be weighted less on average. (This is assuming we agree that an average Black applicant will be writing a more "effective" essay due to, on average, going through more hardship.) If qualifying hardship is what makes a good essay, I'm skeptical of that too.

If after evaluating everyone's personal statements there was a significant benefit conferred to black applicants, would you be ok with that?

I don't agree that poor people have some inherent desirability that makes them deserving of special consideration.

There is a 3 point MCAT gap as measured by one study from one school between students with low socioeconomic status and those without. (More research needed, obviously. Among other things, the AAMC SES indicator system doesn't capture poverty well at all.)

I suspect more people would be open to some preference given to low SES/poor students to compensate for lower scores? But I could be wrong.

If it is the case that being poor results in you having less time to study, less helpful parents etc...

I don't know where most people's intuitions lie here.

Medical Students’ Socioeconomic Status and Academic Performance in Medical School - PMC

Background Students from lower socioeconomic groups tend to underestimate their chances of acceptance to medical school and their likelihood of success once admitted. Objective The objective of this study is to determine if socioeconomic ...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

 

[pgg]

I don't agree that poor people have some inherent desirability that makes them deserving of special consideration.

The argument is that by overcoming adversity they've demonstrated a particular character trait or ability, that might not be reflected in their grades, but might predict success when it comes to doing other difficult things (like med school). And therefore they're desirable / lower risk people to admit.

 

[triggermaster]

The argument is that by overcoming adversity they've demonstrated a particular character trait or ability, that might not be reflected in their grades, but might predict success when it comes to doing other difficult things (like med school). And therefore they're desirable / lower risk people to admit.

That’s an argument. Is there data to support it or do they underperform for life?

 

[GassYous]

The argument is that by overcoming adversity they've demonstrated a particular character trait or ability, that might not be reflected in their grades, but might predict success when it comes to doing other difficult things (like med school). And therefore they're desirable / lower risk people to admit.

I think success is predicted by being the progeny of successful people who have particular character traits or abilities that made them successful in the first place.

 

[pgg]

That’s an argument. Is there data to support it or do they underperform for life?

Seems self evident that objective evidence of an applicant succeeding despite disadvantages would be a desirable quality.

Lots of the process and ranking of applicants is fuzzy. Application essays and personal statements are fuzzy. Judging the strength of the school thr applicant is coming from is fuzzy.

 

[Gern Blansten]

I don't agree that poor people have some inherent desirability that makes them deserving of special consideration.

 

[Gern Blansten]

Seems self evident that objective evidence of an applicant succeeding despite disadvantages would be a desirable quality.

Lots of the process and ranking of applicants is fuzzy. Application essays and personal statements are fuzzy. Judging the strength of the school thr applicant is coming from is fuzzy.

I agree that a candidate that has overcome adversity is an attractive candidate that I tend to give stronger consideration to. However, if they are fourth quartile class rank, held back a year, failed a step exam, or have negative/concerning comments on the Dean's letter, that is not typically a risk I would take, no matter how much I like them as a person, or their race, gender, or socioeconomic status or how compelling their "I overcame" story is. It is almost a guarantee that their academic struggles will persist to the next level (residency) and they will eventually become that resident that can't seem to pass the boards.

 

[Gern Blansten]

What’s your beef with me? I don’t even know you or have gone after you. Maybe I have but done remember.
This is all common knowledge to anyone who’s lived in America long enough or born in America as they claim. Except maybe for the Brazilian part.
And since you missed the point entirely and personalized this and came to your friends defense, I was talking after that specific American. Not the entire 350 million people. 😂😂😂😂
Are you one of those people who always has to be right or be the last man standing? 😂😂😂😂

That's cool. The way I read it was that the term "American" was some sort of insult, which is counter to how I feel about it. I suspect that, if you were from Sri Lanka, for instance, and I said, "Learn some history, person from Sri Lanka (Sri Lankan?)! If there was another person on this board from Sri Lanka, they may read that and think, "I wonder what that person has against people from Sri Lanka..."
Sounds like that was not your intent, as you have clarified. Hopefully, you can see the way I interpreted the statement.

 

[We'llBeDoneIn15Minutes]

There are 1/4 Hispanics who claim Hispanic on the list to up their chances. I was joking with one of the “Latinos” docs I do locums with. Dude just as white as everyone else. He just happens to have Hispanic last name. But dude is white really.

That's nothing. I know of an Indian lady that is a Senator and former Presidential candidate that turned out to be 1% Native American 😂

 

[aneftp]

That's nothing. I know of an Indian lady that is a Senator and former Presidential candidate that turned out to be 1% Native American 😂

Love it Now that’s gaming the system.

 

[We'llBeDoneIn15Minutes]

But have each candidate write an essay how race and poverty has affected them growing up.

But then we get an admissions process benefiting who is the most embellishing and biggest flat out liar.

 

[We'llBeDoneIn15Minutes]

I think success is predicted by being the progeny of successful people who have particular character traits or abilities that made them successful in the first place.

That's a very good point. I do think there is something to consider when somebody has less advantages being poor, but I don't think it's a predictor of a higher success rate; probably the opposite.

 

[xDNA]

It’s obvious that UCLA would have released statistics showing their DEI students did just as well, or just as poorly, as their non DEI cohorts. The fact is the school has not refuted the claim their DEI admits have performed worse and have a failure rate of 25% in their shelf exams. You can believe otherwise but it’s quite obvious to those who read the stats and those who released the data. This makes perfect senses as the DEI admits have lower stats on admission by a wide margin vs their non DEI cohorts. They need more time studying the basic sciences not less.

Regardless of the facts those who support DEI will continue to argue for its merits even if it discriminates against the Asian community.

How major university discriminated against white and Asian candidates

A Black candidate was given a tenure-track job above white and Asian applicants who were ranked higher in the selection process.

www.newsweek.com

I dont get the hyper-fixation, on the AA and Hispanic student's academic performance, as if asian/white students arent allowed to do poorly in medical school. Also I'm really not directing this at you just at the argument in general.

full transparency, I had a low MCAT/GPA and I'm well aware that I'm at UCLA more than likely due to their DEI initiative. Prior to medical school, I had to work 30+hrs a week on top of my nursing degree program in order to put myself through college. It was hard, I was under a tremendous amount stress. and at that point in my life going to medical school wasnt even a thought, so yeah I was content with Bs. I was just tryna get through I wasnt really focused on getting As it wasnt necessary for my goals at that time. Medical school is the first time in my life, I've not only had this abundance of resources at my disposal but also going to school and not having to work whatsoever. And I'm not just in medical school, im THRIVING. I easily could've slipped through the crack and thats why DEI initiatives are important and what I like to think they are trying to aim for. because I am valuable to my peers and colleagues. I DO BELIEVE that DEI can be better implemented but its also essential. I think DEI should be more focused on SES rather than race. AA and Hispanics are more likely to be low SES so it helps that way, but it also allows disadvantaged white/asian students to also be given the same grace I received. I do feel bad because I am aware that there are low SES ORM pre-meds who have a harder time than I did and I believe THATS whats unfair.

 

[deleted1183938]

That's cool. The way I read it was that the term "American" was some sort of insult, which is counter to how I feel about it. I suspect that, if you were from Sri Lanka, for instance, and I said, "Learn some history, person from Sri Lanka (Sri Lankan?)! If there was another person on this board from Sri Lanka, they may read that and think, "I wonder what that person has against people from Sri Lanka..."
Sounds like that was not your intent, as you have clarified. Hopefully, you can see the way I interpreted the statement.

Got it. And that is cool.

 

[deleted1183938]

I dont get the hyper-fixation, on the AA and Hispanic student's academic performance, as if asian/white students arent allowed to do poorly in medical school. Also I'm really not directing this at you just at the argument in general.

full transparency, I had a low MCAT/GPA and I'm well aware that I'm at UCLA more than likely due to their DEI initiative. Prior to medical school, I had to work 30+hrs a week on top of my nursing degree program in order to put myself through college. It was hard, I was under a tremendous amount stress. and at that point in my life going to medical school wasnt even a thought, so yeah I was content with Bs. I was just tryna get through I wasnt really focused on getting As it wasnt necessary for my goals at that time. Medical school is the first time in my life, I've not only had this abundance of resources at my disposal but also going to school and not having to work whatsoever. And I'm not just in medical school, im THRIVING. I easily could've slipped through the crack and thats why DEI initiatives are important and what I like to think they are trying to aim for. because I am valuable to my peers and colleagues. I DO BELIEVE that DEI can be better implemented but it’s also essential. I think DEI should be more focused on SES rather than race. AA and Hispanics are more likely to be low SES so it helps that way, but it also allows disadvantaged white/asian students to also be given the same grace I received. I do feel bad because I am aware that there are low SES ORM pre-meds who have a harder time than I did and I believe THATS whats unfair.

The way this thread is going, your story is going to matter to none of these people who think this way. Why bother wasting your time? You won’t sway these people.
Literally someone just stated “the progeny of successful people” as if we have never seen kids of wealthy successful people become completely entitled no good druggies.
Don’t waste your time with these people. Their dog whistles are loud and clear.

 

[triggermaster]

I dont get the hyper-fixation, on the AA and Hispanic student's academic performance, as if asian/white students arent allowed to do poorly in medical school. Also I'm really not directing this at you just at the argument in general.

full transparency, I had a low MCAT/GPA and I'm well aware that I'm at UCLA more than likely due to their DEI initiative. Prior to medical school, I had to work 30+hrs a week on top of my nursing degree program in order to put myself through college. It was hard, I was under a tremendous amount stress. and at that point in my life going to medical school wasnt even a thought, so yeah I was content with Bs. I was just tryna get through I wasnt really focused on getting As it wasnt necessary for my goals at that time. Medical school is the first time in my life, I've not only had this abundance of resources at my disposal but also going to school and not having to work whatsoever. And I'm not just in medical school, im THRIVING. I easily could've slipped through the crack and thats why DEI initiatives are important and what I like to think they are trying to aim for. because I am valuable to my peers and colleagues. I DO BELIEVE that DEI can be better implemented but its also essential. I think DEI should be more focused on SES rather than race. AA and Hispanics are more likely to be low SES so it helps that way, but it also allows disadvantaged white/asian students to also be given the same grace I received. I do feel bad because I am aware that there are low SES ORM pre-meds who have a harder time than I did and I believe THATS whats unfair.

If it were based on SES, you wouldn’t have been admitted with low MCAT and GPA. Plenty of low SES white and Asian kids don’t get in despite good MCAT and GPAs. AA/DEI are all about race because it’s the only way to meet their racist goals.

 

[Gern Blansten]

I dont get the hyper-fixation, on the AA and Hispanic student's academic performance, as if asian/white students arent allowed to do poorly in medical school. Also I'm really not directing this at you just at the argument in general.

full transparency, I had a low MCAT/GPA and I'm well aware that I'm at UCLA more than likely due to their DEI initiative. Prior to medical school, I had to work 30+hrs a week on top of my nursing degree program in order to put myself through college. It was hard, I was under a tremendous amount stress. and at that point in my life going to medical school wasnt even a thought, so yeah I was content with Bs. I was just tryna get through I wasnt really focused on getting As it wasnt necessary for my goals at that time. Medical school is the first time in my life, I've not only had this abundance of resources at my disposal but also going to school and not having to work whatsoever. And I'm not just in medical school, im THRIVING. I easily could've slipped through the crack and thats why DEI initiatives are important and what I like to think they are trying to aim for. because I am valuable to my peers and colleagues. I DO BELIEVE that DEI can be better implemented but its also essential. I think DEI should be more focused on SES rather than race. AA and Hispanics are more likely to be low SES so it helps that way, but it also allows disadvantaged white/asian students to also be given the same grace I received. I do feel bad because I am aware that there are low SES ORM pre-meds who have a harder time than I did and I believe THATS whats unfair.

Well stated and much respect to you. I’m sincerely happy that you’re doing so well. Congrats and continued good luck.

 

[operaman]

I dont get the hyper-fixation, on the AA and Hispanic student's academic performance, as if asian/white students arent allowed to do poorly in medical school. Also I'm really not directing this at you just at the argument in general.

full transparency, I had a low MCAT/GPA and I'm well aware that I'm at UCLA more than likely due to their DEI initiative. Prior to medical school, I had to work 30+hrs a week on top of my nursing degree program in order to put myself through college. It was hard, I was under a tremendous amount stress. and at that point in my life going to medical school wasnt even a thought, so yeah I was content with Bs. I was just tryna get through I wasnt really focused on getting As it wasnt necessary for my goals at that time. Medical school is the first time in my life, I've not only had this abundance of resources at my disposal but also going to school and not having to work whatsoever. And I'm not just in medical school, im THRIVING. I easily could've slipped through the crack and thats why DEI initiatives are important and what I like to think they are trying to aim for. because I am valuable to my peers and colleagues. I DO BELIEVE that DEI can be better implemented but its also essential. I think DEI should be more focused on SES rather than race. AA and Hispanics are more likely to be low SES so it helps that way, but it also allows disadvantaged white/asian students to also be given the same grace I received. I do feel bad because I am aware that there are low SES ORM pre-meds who have a harder time than I did and I believe THATS whats unfair.

Well said. Yours is exactly the kind of story that I think most would agree is the goal of DEI/AA - identifying disadvantaged applicants who faced undue hardships that may have obscured what they can do. And I think any reasonable person could see that a B from the guy working full time to survive and the A from the rich kid with plenty of time and paid tutors may not accurately discern the difference between the applicants.

Where DEI loses me is in the sheer laziness of its application. Using “race” as a surrogate marker for adversity is just lazy and the results are almost laughable. Just look at all the Ivy’s competing to admit the “black” applicants who are 1st/2nd gen middle to upper class African immigrants with strong families and religious communities and even some financial resources. Schools pat themselves on the back for diversity but those kids didn’t have to deal with the generations of adversity that black Americans face - they’re just advantaged middle/upper class kids with the right skin color. But that apparently counts in DEI-world!

And don’t even get me started on “Asian” which really ends up meaning “group of people that kinda look alike to most white people.” So you end up with wealthy Chinese and Japanese and Korean kids competing for those hyper competitive Asian slots with poor Filipino and Hmong and Laotian kids. Many of those poorer Asian folks have faced similar levels of hardship as many URMs, but because we decided to lazily lump a few billion people into “Asian” they just get hosed in the name of “diversity.”

I’m hopeful that we shift to looking more at hardship and adversity as a means of placing the rest of an application in context. No, the kid with the sub-2.0 GPA shouldn’t get in because they’re life was hard, but maybe that 3.5 from the guy who faced real hardship is pretty similar to the 3.8 from the kid who didn’t. I’d just like to see us start looking at people as individuals where race may certainly be part of the story, but not the only part.

 

[aneftp]

Well said. Yours is exactly the kind of story that I think most would agree is the goal of DEI/AA - identifying disadvantaged applicants who faced undue hardships that may have obscured what they can do. And I think any reasonable person could see that a B from the guy working full time to survive and the A from the rich kid with plenty of time and paid tutors may not accurately discern the difference between the applicants.

Where DEI loses me is in the sheer laziness of its application. Using “race” as a surrogate marker for adversity is just lazy and the results are almost laughable. Just look at all the Ivy’s competing to admit the “black” applicants who are 1st/2nd gen middle to upper class African immigrants with strong families and religious communities and even some financial resources. Schools pat themselves on the back for diversity but those kids didn’t have to deal with the generations of adversity that black Americans face - they’re just advantaged middle/upper class kids with the right skin color. But that apparently counts in DEI-world!

And don’t even get me started on “Asian” which really ends up meaning “group of people that kinda look alike to most white people.” So you end up with wealthy Chinese and Japanese and Korean kids competing for those hyper competitive Asian slots with poor Filipino and Hmong and Laotian kids. Many of those poorer Asian folks have faced similar levels of hardship as many URMs, but because we decided to lazily lump a few billion people into “Asian” they just get hosed in the name of “diversity.”

I’m hopeful that we shift to looking more at hardship and adversity as a means of placing the rest of an application in context. No, the kid with the sub-2.0 GPA shouldn’t get in because they’re life was hard, but maybe that 3.5 from the guy who faced real hardship is pretty similar to the 3.8 from the kid who didn’t. I’d just like to see us start looking at people as individuals where race may certainly be part of the story, but not the only part.

Too much work for school administration to weed out a rich black kid with all the resources in the world vs a poor white/asian kid.

It’s the first cut off process that’s almost done automatically in terms of weeding out candidates. No admin has time to sniff through all the charts

The real committee making those decisions rarely see a poor Asian/white kid application from the original pool of applications unless some kind low level staff has alerted them to consider it.

Just the way the world works

 

[deleted1183938]

Well said. Yours is exactly the kind of story that I think most would agree is the goal of DEI/AA - identifying disadvantaged applicants who faced undue hardships that may have obscured what they can do. And I think any reasonable person could see that a B from the guy working full time to survive and the A from the rich kid with plenty of time and paid tutors may not accurately discern the difference between the applicants.

Where DEI loses me is in the sheer laziness of its application. Using “race” as a surrogate marker for adversity is just lazy and the results are almost laughable. Just look at all the Ivy’s competing to admit the “black” applicants who are 1st/2nd gen middle to upper class African immigrants with strong families and religious communities and even some financial resources. Schools pat themselves on the back for diversity but those kids didn’t have to deal with the generations of adversity that black Americans face - they’re just advantaged middle/upper class kids with the right skin color. But that apparently counts in DEI-world!

And don’t even get me started on “Asian” which really ends up meaning “group of people that kinda look alike to most white people.” So you end up with wealthy Chinese and Japanese and Korean kids competing for those hyper competitive Asian slots with poor Filipino and Hmong and Laotian kids. Many of those poorer Asian folks have faced similar levels of hardship as many URMs, but because we decided to lazily lump a few billion people into “Asian” they just get hosed in the name of “diversity.”

I’m hopeful that we shift to looking more at hardship and adversity as a means of placing the rest of an application in context. No, the kid with the sub-2.0 GPA shouldn’t get in because they’re life was hard, but maybe that 3.5 from the guy who faced real hardship is pretty similar to the 3.8 from the kid who didn’t. I’d just like to see us start looking at people as individuals where race may certainly be part of the story, but not the only part.

Who ever said race was the only part? It’s most always a part of the story. Who is letting URMs into competitive academic slots with sub 2.0 GPAs? Where are you people getting these ridiculous numbers?

 

[BLADEMDA]

The way this thread is going, your story is going to matter to none of these people who think this way. Why bother wasting your time? You won’t sway these people.
Literally someone just stated “the progeny of successful people” as if we have never seen kids of wealthy successful people become completely entitled no good druggies.
Don’t waste your time with these people. Their dog whistles are loud and clear.

Look I live in the real world. I have seen that wealth and privilege do matter. The kid of an Orthopedic Surgeon (I know well) was given so much money by his dad that there is no way way he couldn't succeed. This included the most expensive private schools (Secondary and College), multiple tutors, personal Mcat tutoring for 2 years, 6 months in Africa for his "Gap" year, 1 year in a laboratory while Dad funded his lifestyle, etc. I would guess his father spent $850,000 getting this kid INTO Med School. There is no way any poor AA kid could compete against these resources. My point is the playing field definitely isn't level.

 

[aneftp]

Look I live in the real world. I have seen that wealth and privilege do matter. The kid of an Orthopedic Surgeon (I know well) was given so much money by his dad that there is no way way he couldn't succeed. This included the most expensive private schools (Secondary and College), multiple tutors, personal Mcat tutoring for 2 years, 6 months in Africa for his "Gap" year, 1 year in a laboratory while Dad funded his lifestyle, etc. I would guess his father spent $850,000 getting this kid INTO Med School. There is no way any poor AA kid could compete against these resources. My point is the playing field definitely isn't level.

Sounds exactly like someone I know whose is in Florida whoas kid became hem onc (a lazy one).

Dad was doctor (primary care but own lots of clinics). Took the kid 2 extra years to get into med school. He did the lab and gap year as well. Lived over seas. Only dad was African American doctor.

It comes down to money.

I wonder how his essay would look with DEI

“I grew up with all the advantages in the world, but liked to party and hang out at the beach with my friends, my dad who is also a doctor was my idol. He did face a lot of challenges growing up during the 1960s” “. “I kinda of f up in college my first year and that’s the reason for my grades but I made efforts to improve and my grades improved with the help of my dad’s money”

“I would add diversity to the entering med school class due to my culture and disadvantaged upbringing”

That would be classic and I would admit that kid if I were in that committee simply for his sarcastic nature and humor.

 

[secretasianman]

Sounds exactly like someone I know whose is in Florida whoas kid became hem onc (a lazy one).

Dad was doctor (primary care but own lots of clinics). Took the kid 2 extra years to get into med school. He did the lab and gap year as well. Lived over seas. Only dad was African American doctor.

It comes down to money.

I wonder how his essay would look with DEI

“I grew up with all the advantages in the world, but liked to party and hang out at the beach with my friends, my dad who is also a doctor was my idol. He did face a lot of challenges growing up during the 1960s” “. “I kinda of f up in college my first year and that’s the reason for my grades but I made efforts to improve and my grades improved with the help of my dad’s money”

“I would add diversity to the entering med school class due to my culture and disadvantaged upbringing”

That would be classic and I would admit that kid if I were in that committee simply for his sarcastic nature and humor.

It’s easy to make stuff up. How are they going to verify if thousands of hardship stories are true? On the other hand, numbers don’t lie.

 

[aneftp]

It’s easy to make stuff up. How are they going to verify if thousands of hardship stories are true? On the other hand, numbers don’t lie.

Correct.

But u can verify financial numbers especially students ages having their parents send in tax returns the last 3 years plus assets like a mortgage application.

It’s the same stuff asked on financial aid for the most part anyways.

Problem is govt is lazy. It’s not that difficult. But govt lazy.

Like Obamacare is based on tax returns not financial assets. My former neighbor was New Jersey bond trader. Retired age 54. Brought home in cash 800k plus in Florida.

He was paying $4000 a month in healthcare premiums plus high deductible for him and his s
Wife. She had breast cancer. He had a cabg.

Now with Obamacare care despite him worth millions he only shows 70k or less in taxable returns. So he gets Obamacare for less than $200/3months

It’s because govt can’t determine who is poor and who is wealthy.

 

[BLADEMDA]

It’s easy to make stuff up. How are they going to verify if thousands of hardship stories are true? On the other hand, numbers don’t lie.

The kid I was discussing previously had a $10,000 "Consultant" do his med school application; in the end, he had the stats to get into med school because his parents made sure of it. He ended up at a top 15 med school which set his dad back another $400K. No big deal. The kid also matched into a very competitive specialty because of the top 15 med school (He never got a score on Step 1). It's all game and the very wealthy know how to play it.

So his parents spent $1.2 million on his education, travel, tutors, mcat prep, applications, and med school. I don't see how any disadvantaged kid of any race could compete against those resources. I bet the AA kid who posted would have scored 10 points better on his Mcat if he had those resources. The world isn't a fair place and I can see that we need to make adjustments in how we decide who gets that coveted med school spot.

 

[GassYous]

The kid I was discussing previously had a $10,000 "Consultant" do his med school application; in the end, he had the stats to get into med school because his parents made sure of it. He ended up at a top 15 med school which set his dad back another $400K. No big deal. The kid also matched into a very competitive specialty because of the top 15 med school (He never got a score on Step 1). It's all game and the very wealthy know how to play it.

So his parents spent $1.2 million on his education, travel, tutors, mcat prep, applications, and med school. I don't see how any disadvantaged kid of any race could compete against those resources. I bet the AA kid who posted would have scored 10 points better on his Mcat if he had those resources. The world isn't a fair place and I can see that we need to make adjustments in how we decide who gets that coveted med school spot.

I mean it takes a lot of resources to fly in first class and stay at a st regis. Should we have adjustments for the limited spots there as well?

 

[BLADEMDA]

I mean it takes a lot of resources to fly in first class and stay at a st regis. Should we have adjustments for the limited spots there as well?

What we are discussing is "raw talent" sufficient enough to get through the Med School Curriculum, Residency and be a benefit to the community as a practicing physician. The concept behind "holistic" admissions is to account for a lot of variables in the selection process.
i certainly agree with giving URM a shot at admissions if they can meet the basic standards; I am not certain what that standard is for each school but I would want it to be reasonable based on the median Mcat and GPA. I also think taking into account the economic advantages (or disadvantages) of each applicant should play a more important role than race.

 

[operaman]

The kid I was discussing previously had a $10,000 "Consultant" do his med school application; in the end, he had the stats to get into med school because his parents made sure of it. He ended up at a top 15 med school which set his dad back another $400K. No big deal. The kid also matched into a very competitive specialty because of the top 15 med school (He never got a score on Step 1). It's all game and the very wealthy know how to play it.

So his parents spent $1.2 million on his education, travel, tutors, mcat prep, applications, and med school. I don't see how any disadvantaged kid of any race could compete against those resources. I bet the AA kid who posted would have scored 10 points better on his Mcat if he had those resources. The world isn't a fair place and I can see that we need to make adjustments in how we decide who gets that coveted med school spot.

Well said.

I think it’s also important to remember that everything we look at in admissions at any level is really just a set of surrogate markers that we think/hope correlate with success in whatever endeavor is being sought.

So it’s not like the rich kid’s parents, by spending heavily to ensure a high GPA and mcat, have in any way given their spawn any actual knowledge or advantage in medical school itself, just above average surrogate markers that weight heavily on admission decisions. Add in the cliched mission trip and maybe even a parent-funded research summer, and you have a typical strong applicant.

As someone who believes deeply in the value of meritocracy, I want the best and brightest to get in. But Im not sure that gpa and mcat and other metrics are really capable of defining who those best and brightest may be - they’re just the best thing we seem to have and they must be placed in context.

My gpa and mcat were decent but not great, no research at all, minimal volunteer/shadowing. I was a non trad and was busy in a career before making the switch. No big full ride academic scholarships for me though - lucky to get in at all! I wound up top of my class, published a ton, even became the first medical student and then resident on the editorial board of a respected journal in my field! My sheer numbers would have predicted a mediocre performance, but in the context of a non trad musician without money who wasn’t gunning for med school initially, they didn’t really predict what I could do. Plenty of people have it much harder than I did, and I think we would be wise to consider their numbers in context as well.

Ironically, the most tragic academic failures I’ve seen thus far have been children of faculty members. Of 3 I can think of, one barely scraped by and repeated a year, and two others never made it past step 1 with one of them taking 4 years to get through m1/m2 before being shut out by failing step.

Sometimes I think we should just set what we think are the standards that predict a decent chance of success and then let a computer chose a class at random from the pool that remains after sifting. Over time you’d get classes that roughly match your sifted applicant pool and it would take race out completely. Plus if we’re honest, med school admissions are a bit of a lottery already. One need only visit the pre med forums and see the randomness of acceptances.

 

[deleted1183938]

I mean it takes a lot of resources to fly in first class and stay at a st regis. Should we have adjustments for the limited spots there as well?

There are limitations. Are you not aware?