delay b/w list submission and Match Day

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mlw03

mlw03

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anyone know the reason there's such a long delay between list submission in mid-late Feb (ie, this Wednesday evening) and Match Day almost a month later? I was told the computer algorithm takes only about 10 minutes to run - so why the delay? why doesn't the computer do its thing next Monday, scramble start Tuesday, and then Match Day next Thursday? anyone know of a specific reason for the gap, or is this just the way the NRMP has decided to run things?
 
mlw03 said:
anyone know the reason there's such a long delay between list submission in mid-late Feb (ie, this Wednesday evening) and Match Day almost a month later? I was told the computer algorithm takes only about 10 minutes to run - so why the delay? why doesn't the computer do its thing next Monday, scramble start Tuesday, and then Match Day next Thursday? anyone know of a specific reason for the gap, or is this just the way the NRMP has decided to run things?
Click to expand...

No reason for that delay except to torture the applicants. I don’t think it takes 10 minutes, 10 seconds are more than enough.
 
As with any institution that has a monopoly, they do things on their schedule, not the customer's.

OTOH in fairness to them, they have to make sure that the match results are quality checked before they release them. Just imagine what would happen if they screwed up.
 
If they want to do quality check, they have the whole year they can test their soft ware. Even, if they do the match manually, still this time is very long, the whole applicants and programs are few thousands.
 
just like everything with the "I want to study medicine process"= TO MAKE YOU SUFFER!!!

Its stupid to give out the results almost a month later when we are in the year 2007, you would expect that in the 70's or maybe 80's!!!
 
well-said. back in the pre-computer days, a month to work out the Match is reasonable, but with the current computer system the delay makes much less sense; yet much of academic medicine is based on tradition more than what works best, so perhaps this is one of those things.

unless there is a good reason for the current delay, i would suggest either moving back the list submission date or moving up Match Day such that there's only about a week in between. that gives the NRMP time to check (likely not necessary in the computer age) and then the 2 day scramble period.

mig26x said:
just like everything with the "I want to study medicine process"= TO MAKE YOU SUFFER!!!

Its stupid to give out the results almost a month later when we are in the year 2007, you would expect that in the 70's or maybe 80's!!!
Click to expand...
 
mig26x said:
just like everything with the "I want to study medicine process"= TO MAKE YOU SUFFER!!!

Its stupid to give out the results almost a month later when we are in the year 2007, you would expect that in the 70's or maybe 80's!!!
Click to expand...

It is terrible experience to wait because of lazy people and lazy system and, what quality check they are doing??? nothing.
 
i'm not sure if some things are meant to be punitive or "tradition" although the end result is the same - students/residents suffer/waste time for stupid reasons. i think a lot of it is a mentality of "i did it and i turned out great, so clearly this is a good system" - however as i go through surgery i'm really starting to question the learning value retracting tissue or cutting sutures, while 95% of the questions on the surgery shelf are mainly internal medicine.

the most amusing part is that all this "tradition" occurs at all these institutions around the US that claim to celebrate evidence-based medicine. where's the evidence that overworked residents are good? that miserable students will pick their specialties? in light of contradictory evidence, certain practices continue, and i have to think it's because of tradition. i have to think that because to think i'm dealing with punitive people is too depressing.

filter07 said:
So true. Much of medical education is purely punitive.
Click to expand...
 
mlw03,
great post. our whole society is built and run on "tradition". this lack of progress and fore-thinking (is that even a word?) stifles our ability to grow and progress in all aspects of life. we have the technology to do things faster and better so lets do it. "tradition" to me usually means old and outdated. boy do i sound negative 😀
 
Not sure if it is totally related but the "you get to cut sutures and retract in surgery" yay-reminds me of most of my other rotations where the resident would tell me "ya students GET TO dictate!" Like are you kidding me-is this how I want to spend my clerkships serrrriously
 
GoodbyeTemecula said:
Not sure if it is totally related but the "you get to cut sutures and retract in surgery" yay-reminds me of most of my other rotations where the resident would tell me "ya students GET TO dictate!" Like are you kidding me-is this how I want to spend my clerkships serrrriously
Click to expand...

Hey,

I certainly don't love dictating, but I think it's good to do it in clerkship because that way you learn how to do it quickly and properly. I'd rather learn how to dictate as a 3rd year than in internship when I'll be much busier. I think doing some "scut work" is definitely useful as a clerk because it will help prepare you for residency.
 
andros said:
Hey,

I certainly don't love dictating, but I think it's good to do it in clerkship because that way you learn how to do it quickly and properly. I'd rather learn how to dictate as a 3rd year than in internship when I'll be much busier. I think doing some "scut work" is definitely useful as a clerk because it will help prepare you for residency.
Click to expand...

true 👍 i hate dictating but it's becoming second nature for me.
 
thanks for everyone's comments. i didn't start this post to rant against some of the scutwork, but it clearly seems relevant to the original issue of the delay and the reasoning, which appears to be tradition from the pre-uber-computer era.

as to the issue of dictating or other forms of notewriting - i don't consider that scut if, and only if, it's your patient that you've been following and also only if the residents take your presentation and suggestions with appropriate consideration. i get that i'm not a surgeon/OB/psychiatrist, but if someone's CBC comes back with a Hgb of 8 and an MCV of 74, it's probably worth getting iron studies, so when i say that to you don't blow me off like i don't know what i'm doing.

in fact, on numerous topics, i'm sure there are times when the med student knows far more than the resident. if people were to post stories of every time that happened we'd probably get a good 500 posts.
 
my GF is going crazy, shes going to move in with me and she has to find a new job wherever I end up doing residency, so this is not only nerve-breaking to us as applicants but to our significant others that are moving with us to these new cities, towns etc etc and she has ask me alot of times by now why does it take so much time for them to tell me!! LOL. I dont have an answer for that. I wish I had one!!!
 
mig26x said:
my GF is going crazy, shes going to move in with me and she has to find a new job wherever I end up doing residency, so this is not only nerve-breaking to us as applicants but to our significant others that are moving with us to these new cities, towns etc etc and she has ask me alot of times by now why does it take so much time for them to tell me!! LOL. I dont have an answer for that. I wish I had one!!!
Click to expand...

My husband has been freaking over this as well. He's a big time planner and hates this limbo time.
 
It is not the time between ROL and match, the whole process is lengthy without obvious reason. You start uploading your documents 8/15 and the ROL dead time is 2/21 (6 months).
 
My husband the software developer says they probably need the time to run the match software several times to make sure it comes up the same every time and that there aren't glitches.

That, and torture.
 
sophiejane said:
My husband the software developer says they probably need the time to run the match software several times to make sure it comes up the same every time and that there aren't glitches.
Click to expand...

That's what I said in not so many words. Computers aren't perfect by any stretch of the imagination.
 
Adam_K said:
That's what I said in not so many words. Computers aren't perfect by any stretch of the imagination.
Click to expand...

Mine is! I am running Vista...

😉
 
Trepp said:
Mine is! I am running Vista...

😉
Click to expand...

Way off topic, but I've got to respond. One of my best friends works for a major computer manufacturer. He recently told me that their internal IT department is currently not supporting Vista due to all kinds of unresolved bugs they've encountered.
 
One of my classmates brought some of this up as well... "Urology Match 2005" While the month between ROLs and Match Day may have been rooted in tradition, the SNAFU in 2005 (albeit it wasn't in the nrmp) didn't help push these dates closer together. No doubt they're 15-tuple checking the results.
 
People! This is America! There can be only one reason why Match results aren't released 15 seconds after ROLs are due. NRMP supports the terrorists!

If Match results aren't available @ 15 seconds past 2100 (Eastern Whatever Time) on ROL deadline day it means the terrorists have won.

It's really quite simple when you stop to consider it.
 
what snafu occurred in 2005? i think i must have been too deep in 2nd year/boards prep to realize anything outside my little world.
😛
 
flipflopsnsnow said:
what snafu occurred in 2005? i think i must have been too deep in 2nd year/boards prep to realize anything outside my little world.
😛
Click to expand...

I heard the urology match info was sent out "you matched at ...." then they realized they goofed the placements and retracted it all a day or two later. Some of the people who were told they matched...didn't.
 
slim shanie said:
One of my classmates brought some of this up as well... "Urology Match 2005" While the month between ROLs and Match Day may have been rooted in tradition, the SNAFU in 2005 (albeit it wasn't in the nrmp) didn't help push these dates closer together. No doubt they're 15-tuple checking the results.
Click to expand...

How many times do they need to check? It's like 18 days b/w now and the Monday of Match week. You could run it billions of times between now and then!
 
mig26x said:
my GF is going crazy, shes going to move in with me and she has to find a new job wherever I end up doing residency, so this is not only nerve-breaking to us as applicants but to our significant others that are moving with us to these new cities, towns etc etc and she has ask me alot of times by now why does it take so much time for them to tell me!! LOL. I dont have an answer for that. I wish I had one!!!
Click to expand...

My wife is having the same trouble. It's not like finding a job for a normal person is a simple process. I ranted somewhere else about how stupid it is for programs to find out who they got before the applicants find out where they are headed. Why do programs need to know first? Are THEY moving? It's all about as dumb as Forest Gump after a fifth of Jack Daniels.
 
Duckie24 said:
My wife is having the same trouble. It's not like finding a job for a normal person is a simple process. I ranted somewhere else about how stupid it is for programs to find out who they got before the applicants find out where they are headed. Why do programs need to know first? Are THEY moving? It's all about as dumb as Forest Gump after a fifth of Jack Daniels.
Click to expand...
I apologize for my ignorance, but do programs really find out first? How early do they find out?
 
Why does it take three weeks from rank order list deadline to Match Day?

During that time, NRMP takes a number of major steps to assure the accuracy of both the Match and the subsequent release of Match information. Those steps include:

  • Checking the integrity and completeness of the data.
  • Transferring the data to the algorithm module, checking it again, and running the Match.
  • Verifying the results of the Match and transferring the data into the NRMP databases.
  • Creating more than 60,000 individual reports for applicants, programs, and schools, and assuring confidentiality of the information. The reports are then posted to the Web in accordance with the Match Results schedule.
  • In addition, time is allotted for unmatched applicants and unfilled programs to make decisions before Match Day.
 
goldengate said:
Why does it take three weeks from rank order list deadline to Match Day?

During that time, NRMP takes a number of major steps to assure the accuracy of both the Match and the subsequent release of Match information. Those steps include:

  • Checking the integrity and completeness of the data.
  • Transferring the data to the algorithm module, checking it again, and running the Match.
  • Verifying the results of the Match and transferring the data into the NRMP databases.
  • Creating more than 60,000 individual reports for applicants, programs, and schools, and assuring confidentiality of the information. The reports are then posted to the Web in accordance with the Match Results schedule.
  • In addition, time is allotted for unmatched applicants and unfilled programs to make decisions before Match Day.
Click to expand...

So, all those billions of transactions allover the world in different fields must need hundreds of years to be checked and reported. What do you think from lazy people to say? We are lazy!!!
 
Anyone else think the "downtime" on the NRMP system this morning was the match actually taking place?...haha! only 3 more weeks of agony....😉
 
I met someone that worked as a secretary at the NRMP and he/she said it takes ~20 minutes to run the full match, but that they do the above checking.. and also pull out random couples matches and check those..

Any way I think its funny weve already matched, I wonder if my rank list number is happily buzzing around some circuit rechecking itself... "Yes I am who I am, wash hands again, I am who am... repeat"...
 
This is the reason I heard:

Why does it take three weeks from rank order list deadline to Match Day?

The match algorithm is on 42,703 punch cards and every year someone has to figure out where the punch cards are hidden for security reasons (1 day). Someone drops them and has to put them back in order. This takes about 4 days. Some of the cards need to be repunched. Finding a keypunch operator takes 3 days through Kelly Technical. Finding and purchasing a keypunch machine on Ebay takes 5 days with express shipping (winning bid $23 [Shipping $173]). It then takes the IBM-370 supercomputer 6 minutes and 24 seconds to read the punch cards and the program takes 0.132 seconds to run. It takes 7 additional days to find computer paper that will run in the Silvereed dot matrix printer and 15 hours for the printer to print the results. Typing in emails by hand takes four additional days.
Click to expand...

Source :laugh:
 
Hey, I found this in another thread, written by a PD:

"Oh, and before I forget... the reason there is such a long delay is that the original computers took longer to process the data, and the algorithm is run more than once to ensure that there are no glitches. With todays faster computers the runs and re-runs take only minutes to hours instead of hours to days, but there has not been an accompanying change in the time table. Hey, it's better than doing it by hand... think how long that would take!"

It's crazy to think that we've already matched! 😱 Tell me already!!!!😎
 
It takes a while for drunken monkeys to throw 16000 darts. Be patient.
 
turkleton said:
It takes a while for drunken monkeys to throw 16000 darts. Be patient.
Click to expand...

I am just so pleased that my "drunk monkeys with darts" theory continues to rear it's head, even without me bringing it up. I actually created it to explain the match to the lay public but it seems that this year about half the people matching would believe it as well.
 
goldengate said:
Why does it take three weeks from rank order list deadline to Match Day?

During that time, NRMP takes a number of major steps to assure the accuracy of both the Match and the subsequent release of Match information. Those steps include:

  • Checking the integrity and completeness of the data.
  • Transferring the data to the algorithm module, checking it again, and running the Match.
  • Verifying the results of the Match and transferring the data into the NRMP databases.
  • Creating more than 60,000 individual reports for applicants, programs, and schools, and assuring confidentiality of the information. The reports are then posted to the Web in accordance with the Match Results schedule.
  • In addition, time is allotted for unmatched applicants and unfilled programs to make decisions before Match Day.
Click to expand...

What a joke. I'll give them "checking data integrity". But "generating reports" and "transferring data" are all but instantaneous.
 
While a brief look did not provide a reason for the long delay between rank order list submission and Match Day, I thought this site provided interesting info about the history and technology of the Match.

http://www.savethematch.org/benefits/technology.aspx

I'm a geek (with gunner's guilt) and have way too much free time so I used Netcraft to look up data on services.nrmp.org (the main log-in page) and found that it is Windows/Microsoft based! I was surprised...I thought that the NRMP would use Sun or Linux instead of Windows, which has a lot of security flaws. ...which made me wonder...could someone "hack" the Match?
 
mlw03 said:
anyone know the reason there's such a long delay between list submission in mid-late Feb (ie, this Wednesday evening) and Match Day almost a month later? I was told the computer algorithm takes only about 10 minutes to run - so why the delay? why doesn't the computer do its thing next Monday, scramble start Tuesday, and then Match Day next Thursday? anyone know of a specific reason for the gap, or is this just the way the NRMP has decided to run things?
Click to expand...

It takes about 5-7 minutes to run the full algorithm...It takes weeks to make sure everything is acceptable though.
 
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