delete

[JenInNewYork]

delere

---

Members don't see this ad.

 

[Salpingo]

To date, I haven't read about any definitive hormone responsible for PPD.

But I don't think there's any dispute that PPD exists. Maybe what your friend is arguing that there are no clear biomarkers or discernible biological pathophysiology for the disease, which is true. All that means is we don't know the precise steps and causes afflicting the body during PPD. To my knowledge, no one can read a scan or draw labs that conclusively prove someone has PPD. However, that doesn't mean the disease is "factitious" (for the record, in psychiatry, factitious implies symptoms the patient reports or produces for no secondary gain; the textbook example is someone who injects themselves with insulin or makes their child deliberately sick just so they can get attention from hospital staff).

If we used your friend's definition, then autism doesn't exist. Up until the 1980's, Alzheimer's wouldn't have existed either. In fact, unless you can take samples from an Alzheimer's patients, you can't prove that their Alzheimer's is "real." And it gets more complicated with depression. While we know that depression can occur when serotonin, a hormone, is not readily available to the body, that doesn't change the fact that there are multiple social and psychological factors that can lead to depression.

K, done with my soap box. Sorry if you owe your friend drinks or whatever you might have bet. Here's an article that at least theorizes the hormones at play:

http://www.springerlink.com/content/y738wq7277h65401/

 

[whopper]

If a disorder truly exists, tests must confirm its presence.

If that's the case then HIV didn't exist before the test was invented to detect it, and while we're at it, so too for diabetes, leukemia, HTN...

And since there's no test for a headache, I guess headaches don't exist either. There's also no test for a stomach ache. OMG, I think we're really onto something here!

Wow, I'm curing the world of diseases left and right here with this new sort of indicator. No test? It doesn't exist.

 

[IAmAUser]

.

 

[Salpingo]

If a disorder truly exists, tests must confirm its presence.

I'm surprised she's spent her life researching Alzheimer's, which at the moment is an undiagnosable illness (up until death and autopsy).

 

[StudyShy]

My condition of pregnancy (hyperemesis gravidarum) is a very similiar kind of enigma. There is no known one biological cause for the disease. Differences in hormones fail to conclusively locate a causative factor for the condition.

Many people did not believe that I was actually sick (from what I gathered from my medical records, overheard from the nurses, and from the questions that I got asked from healthcare workers). Usually people fell into these categories:

1) I was malingering and that I wanted to be in the hospital because I wanted a break (wrong because I don't want to be away from my other children or miss out on work or school)
2) I didn't really want to be pregnant/want my baby (this is wrong because I actively pursued trying to get pregnant)
3) I was depressed (wrong although I did become frustrated when I lost 30 lbs, was growing weaker by the day, and no one would listen to me)
4) That I had an eating disorder (wrong except if you count overeating when not pregnant occasionally as an eating disorder )

The sad thing is that I was actually very nauseated and I had little control over the vomiting. In fact, I would vomit out my nose. Currently, people still believe that my disorder is a psychosomatic condition. The pytalism and extreme vomiting in pregnancy are somehow due to something in my mind. While I believe that the brain is a very powerful thing, I still feel that my hypermesis gravidarum is due to something biological that has not been discovered yet. It appears to have a genetic basis in that those with hyperemesis have mothers and sisters with the same disorder. I also had no reason to vomit like I did. I wanted my baby, and I am a happy person in general. My mother, who had hyperemesis with the four of use, also is an easy-going person who always wanted children and is content in life.

We have advanced greatly in medical care over the last century. However, there are still a lot of things that we have to learn. Whether hyperemesis is psych related or if it is caused by hormones, allergic reactions, or whatever I feel that it is important to not negate the feelings of those who have such disorders like hyperemesis or postpartum depression. If they are coming for help, more than likely, they need help. Not validating their feelings lends to increased frustrating and can prove devastating.

On I side note, I have seen people who have had postpartum psychosis when I was a nursing student. I would never wish that on anyone. I also think that it is funny that your friend is interested in dementia. There are so many unknowns about that too, but good research is in much need in that area so props to her.

 

[whopper]

I never thought about it much until my wife and I had our first kid.

After our baby was born, my wife told me her need for sleep is a lot less. She still laments poor sleep, being up all night with the baby etc, but she's operating on 3-4 hours of sleep, while I can't for days straight.

We've all read the data that bipolar disorder is often first seen post-partum, and that PP psychosis or depression is possibly a manifestation of bipolar disorder, and that birth can somehow contribute to this process, the but how it does it is still up in the air.

No, the wife is not manic, but I just found it real odd. She's able to operate on very poor sleep and she wasn't able to do it before. On top of that, there are advantages to mothers being up all the time to breastfeed, but from an evolutionary standpoint to also guard the baby.

There's data suggesting that circadian rhythms are tied in with bipolar disorder, and while a connection has been established, the actual mechanics have not.

This is leading me to suspect that something in the birth process is affecting the medial preoptic or suprechiasmatic area of the hypothalamus (the areas that are may be governing circadian rhythms), and that is also somehow related to bipolar disorder. Just a theory, but something I'd consider if I ever did research in the area.

 

[StudyShy]

I never thought about it much until my wife and I had our first kid.

After our baby was born, my wife told me her need for sleep is a lot less. She still laments poor sleep, being up all night with the baby etc, but she's operating on 3-4 hours of sleep, while I can't for days straight.

We've all read the data that bipolar disorder is often first seen post-partum, and that PP psychosis or depression is possibly a manifestation of bipolar disorder, and that birth can somehow contribute to this process, the but how it does it is still up in the air.

No, the wife is not manic, but I just found it real odd. She's able to operate on very poor sleep and she wasn't able to do it before. On top of that, there are advantages to mothers being up all the time to breastfeed, but from an evolutionary standpoint to also guard the baby.

There's data suggesting that circadian rhythms are tied in with bipolar disorder, and while a connection has been established, the actual mechanics have not.

This is leading me to suspect that something in the birth process is affecting the medial preoptic or suprechiasmatic area of the hypothalamus (the areas that are may be governing circadian rhythms), and that is also somehow related to bipolar disorder. Just a theory, but something I'd consider if I ever did research in the area.

I've read that usually postpartum depression is a manifestation of bipolar disorder in as much as 60% of women at least I can remember from the article.

From what I have seen from the women who have given birth at my workplace, everyone seems to go through a brief period of the blues. The lack of sleep caused by an infant waking up every two hours really messes with you. The body is is a state of transformation. You're leaking from the breasts and bleeding out the crotch. Probably for a good two weeks after having each of my children, I had a somewhat flat affect and cried very easily. My husband would make me cry for the fun of it. I thought that it was funny, too, even though I would be crying...bawling. I knew it was just related to hormones. I had fun making my friends cry after they had children because they did the same thing.

Two weeks postpartum, I would be fine though still very sleep deprived. I never felt a need for less sleep, however. I always felt VERY tired.

Having a baby is always tough. Just think of the whole process of making a baby, giving birth, and then having to take care of the baby. It can be overwhelming. I can see how someone would get depressed if they had a lack of support.

 

[whopper]

Agree with you. My wife and I are new parents, and she is definitely working much harder at it than me because in order to breast feed the baby, she has to do it every 1-3 hours around the clock.

PP blues actually occurs in the majority. The lowest numbers in studies are 50%, the largest above 80%. The stress is enormous, as I'm sure all of you parents already know. In addition, it's my personal opinion that there's some type of circadian rhythm/hormonal physiological event that occurs in addition to all the stress. Just what it is hasn't exactly been narrowed down.

IMHO the data in this field is paltry, and it's not surprising given that we can't do invasive experiments on pregnant women and new mothers and given what little we know of mental illness in general.

 

[StudyShy]

Agree with you. My wife and I are new parents, and she is definitely working much harder at it than me because in order to breast feed the baby, she has to do it every 1-3 hours around the clock.

PP blues actually occurs in the majority. The lowest numbers in studies are 50%, the largest above 80%. The stress is enormous, as I'm sure all of you parents already know. In addition, it's my personal opinion that there's some type of circadian rhythm/hormonal physiological event that occurs in addition to all the stress. Just what it is hasn't exactly been narrowed down.

IMHO the data in this field is paltry, and it's not surprising given that we can't do invasive experiments on pregnant women and new mothers and given what little we know of mental illness in general.

Congratulations on the addition to your family! These are exciting times for you guys, I'm sure...and stressful! I breastfed and pumped for my three children, so if she has any questions about anything like pumping let me know. I'm practically a lactation consultant by now! The best place for breastfeeding information on the interwebz is Kellymom IMHO.

I think that the best thing that you can do for her is pick up any extra slack such as cooking and cleaning. She will be very grateful. Make sure that she has enough to eat. Breastfeeding mothers often feel too busy to take care of themselves because they are so focused on caring for their baby. It's a fairly demanding job. Just think about having to sit for 20+ minutes every 2-3 hours for days on end. That makes me tired just thinking about it. lol

I plan to go into OB, so people at work ask me a lot of questions about sex, tampons, how to get pregnant...you name it. Almost every woman who has given birth in my department has talked to me about PPD. I find it immensly interesting. These a normal women who I greatly respect, and they get depressed. The majority end up asking their OB for an antidepressant. I really never knew that so many people take medication. There are also several women who have confided that they take medication for their PMDD which I think is also interesting.

Currently I talk to women who had hyperemesis and become depressed during the course of their illness and after as part of an emotional support network. Some have chosen abortion and others have lost their babies. These aren't normal pregnancies by any means, and these mothers are so depressed. I'm actually not sure if they will ever be the same. It's been very difficult to see an illness that has destroyed so many people's lives. The interplay between stress, hormones, and genetics is so complicated. More research is definitely needed.

Here's a psych tid bit if not already known. Reglan to augment breast milk production can cause depression and suicidal thoughts. Too bad domperidone isn't compounded usually in the US. That stuff makes women into milk goddesses and doesn't have the untoward side effects that reglan has.

 

[whopper]

I pretty much avoid Reglan. Aside from what you mentioned, it has plenty of psychiatric side effects. My reasoning is if I already got a psychiatric patient, why give them something that's just going to confuse the picture even more as to what's causing the problem? There's plenty of alteratives. I've never been in a situation where the alternatives were tried but didn't work. Perhaps then I would be okay with it.

 

[StudyShy]

I pretty much avoid Reglan. Aside from what you mentioned, it has plenty of psychiatric side effects. My reasoning is if I already got a psychiatric patient, why give them something that's just going to confuse the picture even more as to what's causing the problem? There's plenty of alteratives. I've never been in a situation where the alternatives were tried but didn't work. Perhaps then I would be okay with it.

When I got Reglan for treatment of my HG it gave me restless leg syndrome and anxiety when I don't usually have those problems. I couldn't figure out why I felt like I was going to crawl out of my skin until I noticed that it happened every six hours for about a half an hour after getting it. After two weeks of it, I started declining it. It didn't help with the nausea/vomiting anyway, and it made me really uncomfortable. I got in trouble for refusing my medication, but oh well. It wasn't worth it. It think that it my complaint was just chalked up to being another "whiny puker." When I was a med-surg nurse, I used to hear some people talk about it giving them anxiety. It was something that I never thought about until getting it myself.

Compazine did the same thing but worse. I only got it once, and if I could have walked, I would have ran right out of my hospital room. I was an inch away from pulling out my NG tube. If I ever get pregnant again, I'm listing that as an allergy so I never get it again. lol