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Dent School getting harder to get into then med schools?

Discussion in 'Pre-Dental' started by jae9970, Feb 25, 2007.

  1. jae9970

    jae9970 Freshman Member
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    IS the recent trend going to more difficult side for pre-dent students?

    ive been hearing some things about how dental schools is getting harder and harder to get into, and in some cases, more difficult than med schools?
     
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  2. Snahster

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    In terms of applicants per available spot then it is harder. Dental school has fewer spots to offer the number of applicants.
     
  3. drpduck

    drpduck Senior Member
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    Dental school is certainly getting tough admissions wise. I don't know if it will ever be more difficult then getting into med school (if you are comparing USA allopathic med schools only), but I predict it will become close or possibly even in the future.

    My take is that the increase is due to people who would have otherwise considered medicine before insurance dictated how doc's practice. Advancements in dentistry, more retiring then graduating and a huge baby boomer population that wants to keep their natural teeth certainly help as well.

    Now if you compare dental school admissions vs. getting accepted to ANY med school (U.S. MD and DO schools, foreign MD schools, etc.) then there are easier routes to get into medicine then dentistry. Heck I have a friend at a carib med school that didn't even try to reapply to the U.S., just got rejected from U.S. MD schools first try and went down there. Now she is halfway done her MD. I unfortunately did not get in my first time for dental school and had to work very hard to get in the second round, there are no other options for pre-dents other then U.S. DDS/DMD schools.
     
  4. CaliDDS

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    funny joke:D


     
  5. Dental Dork 09

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    Oh please!

    This will never happen. If I f!uck up in clinic all you do is pull the tooth and slap in a bridge or implant which neither is difficult.

    sure med admissions is near 50/50 (30,000 applicants 15,000 spots) but they are, in general, more qualified than we will ever be. Their education is so different and in my opinion more superior to ours. With a few bro in-laws in med school they have a big one up on me.
     
  6. diane07

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    The field of dentistry is definitely gaining popularity as evidenced by the increase in applicants the last few years. Not only are there more applicants, but there are more quality applicants with stellar stats.

    Although it seems like 12,000 applicants is a lot . . . keep in mind that this number includes people who are applying on a whim or who don't have the necessary qualifications to begin with. Anyone can apply through AADSAS, but not all of them are truely competitive or serious.
     
  7. Drill2Fill

    Drill2Fill DentalStudentWannabe
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    Doesn't sound like you really want to be a dentist.
     
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  8. armorshell

    armorshell One Man Freak Show
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    How is a certain type of education "superior" to another? One's not better then the other, they're different disciplines :laugh:

    So may I ask, which is superior: A B.S. in Economics or a B.A. in Economics. Or a B.S. in Agricultural Education or 2 A.A.s in Business/English and a B.S. in Zoology? Is it more superior to drop out of Harvard or to graduate from a 4th tier state university?
     
  9. bruinpredent

    bruinpredent UCLA School of Dentistry
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    clearly to drop out of harvard. i mean come on armorshell, everyone knows that theres WAY more prestige in that then graduating from a 4th tier university!

    :rolleyes:
     
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  10. Envision

    Envision Envisioning...
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    There are really to many factors to consider to make any sort of conclusion. I would say statistically (MD 30,000 applicants, 15,000 spots...vs 12,000 applicants 4,000 seats), it might "seem" more competitive. But our average gpa is still lower than med schools. Does this say anything? it may suggest that dental schools are still not as competitive then med school and we simply have a lot of applicants with slightly lower gpa's. Also, like someone else mentioned, med school applicants have a couple of routes and backup plans that will help get them their medical degree for example DO or Caribbean med schools. Whereas dental schools do not have these types of alternative routes. My prediction is dental schools will continue to get more competitive...but it'll probably be some time before a 3.4 is considered below average. just my 2cent.
     
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  11. pacbum

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    try telling that to Harvard, Columbia, or UConn dental students that go to the same classes as the med students, but spend extra hours in the preclinic learning about dentistry as well.

    oh, and how about the ucla dental student that learn just as much as the med students, but take on the dental education as well in the same 4 years that the med school students do.

    should i continue listing schools?

    many dental schools see dentistry as a subspecialty of medicine, meaning that you have a medical education as well as a dental education, and more in the same 4 years that the med school students do.

    let's not compare med students to dental students because we are just as qualified, but we chose a different career. simple as that.
     
  12. jackbauer!

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    Soo you're trying to say that people don't apply to med school "on a whim"? Anyone can apply through AMCAS and many of them are not very competitve or serious... it works both ways.

    jb!:)
     
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  13. shamrock2006

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    I personally think that, although the % of accepted students is higher for med students...the whole "they are more qualified" applicants doesnt make them better...many times they are just more anal...i mean if you went to the library and saw two groups studying..pre-dents and pre-meds...you could definitely distinguish. Plus, at least where I went to school, the pre-meds basically only had to focus on their sciences...and all the pre-dents had to worry about all types of courses including the sciences. Bottom line..it's all very subjective..i mean, who knows, many of this years applications could be former pre-meds with inflated stats that randomly switched to dentistry...very possible. Neither are superior, they are both very different. Go with what you enjoy..and if a pre-med tells you it is inferior..they're just jealous b/c they've come to the realization they've made the WRONG choice:laugh:
     
  14. OP
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    jae9970

    jae9970 Freshman Member
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    well, think logically. Going into dentistry field means good salaries plus not too high workhours. It could be considered a really good specialty in medicine. Wouldn't it make sense that such field is competitive?
     
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  15. diane07

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    Of course . . . you're absolutely correct.
     
  16. drpduck

    drpduck Senior Member
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    I've thought about this before. If dentistry was a specialty of medicine, and still had the same hours/autonomy etc. as it does now, it would be a crazy competitive residency, similar to dermatology (or similar difficulty as getting into a dental ortho residency).
     
  17. OceanBlue

    OceanBlue HA! I knew it.
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    More premeds are changing to predents prior to the MCAT because they recognize the benefits. This one of the reasons why dental schools are getting more competitive. Going to Med school, you'll get a bit more respect/honor, but you lose a bit of everything else (in my opinion).

    droll...you're wasting everybody's time. Go to another field because dentistry is not for you.

    I'll go with jb on this
     
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  18. Dental Dork 09

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    I happen to be in one of these schools that are with med students and we are not graded the same. Sure we take the same classes but our exams are different.

    Plus, only the first 2 years are SIMILAR (not the same), after that it is very different.

    And Yes I love dentistry. I never even entertained the idea of medicine. I love fixing broken stuff and thats what we do. If I didn't get into dental school I would have gone into construction

    I just get all pissed when people try to get into pissing matches. No way is a DDS as important to society as an MD/DO.

    I stopped going to this one dentist because I was in the waiting room and I was on my cell. I mentioned I was at the dentist office. I guess he heard me because in the chair he said "you are really in a doctors office". Oh please, get off your high horse
     
  19. RozhonDDS

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    In a sense, most applicants are starting to realize that you can do the same things medicine as to offer in dentistry and work less hours and get paid the same if not more, this in intriguing to a lot of individuals.
     
  20. OceanBlue

    OceanBlue HA! I knew it.
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    Your dentist has a point. His degree says: Doctor of Dental Surgery (DDS) or Doctor of Dental Medicine (DMD), so why can't he say "you're in a doctor's office"? I personality don't give a flying shyt if people call me by my first name or a dentist or a Dr.XXX. How the hell will that change my life? What matters is I will work 4 days a week, i get to work with patients, and I will get a nice living salary.
     
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  21. armorshell

    armorshell One Man Freak Show
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    To be honest with you, I agree that there's no point to having constant pissing matches about which discipline is better. That makes me wonder why you're instigating one. So, I'll push back a bit.

    So every MD/DO is more important to society then a DMD/DDS? What about Pathologists? Proctologists? Dermatologists? Cosmetic Plastic Surgeons? Hospice doctors? You do realize every MD isn't out cracking chests and traching choking people on the street right?

    Have a little pride for your future profession. It's attitudes like yours that would have dentists working next to the food court at the shopping mall or in walmarts.
     
  22. 3rdMolarRoller

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    Not if you go to a private school like I did. Lesson be learned for all pre-dents, go to the cheapest school possible. If the ada gives its stamp of approval, thats all that matters.

    I'll be working 6 days a week the first 5 years to put a dent into this monster pile of loans.

    Oh well, things could be worse
     
  23. Dental Dork 09

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    When you are in a forum that is dedicated to one field, things tend to get very biased. I was trying to play devils advocate but didn't do a very good job.

    And really, its not people like me you have to worry about, its going to be the foreign grads once the ADA starts giving accreditation to their schools over seas.

    Not that they are inferior, but their are some key issues with one of the major ones being they will be able to undercut US dentist due to having little or no debt from school.

    Also, in medicine, foregin MD's that come here tend to accept lower payment plans from insurance carriers, thus driving down payout for everyone. If the insurance companies see that a group of MD's are willing to see patients at $6 a visit, then they push it on others. Hence our current mess. Not saying its all due to foreign grads though.

    So long story short, we need to look to our big brother the MD and learn from his mistake. Because the way its going, we are going to make the same ones thanks to the ADA.
     
  24. OceanBlue

    OceanBlue HA! I knew it.
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    of course..i'm not talking about when you're starting out. I am well aware of the point that you are making. I'm lucky to get into my state's school...i only have to pay 54k for tuition plus 4 yrs of cheap living espenses. A buddy of mine only has to pay back around 80k total for this DDS. I'm looking forward to work about 6 days a week when I get out too, but after 5 to 10 yrs hopefully it will be down to 4 days/week.
     
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  25. Chrono1984

    Chrono1984 Member
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    You all are missing the really important questions:

    Who cares?

    If I worked at wendy's, I wouldn't care how hard it was to find a job at mcdonalds because I'm working at wendys. I definitely wouldn't be sitting around the grill asking my peers if it was harder to get a job here or there. Why is that you ask? Because I want to work at wendys.

    The general populace will always view dentists as second-rate doctors and med school flunkouts; you will drive yourself nuts trying to convince them otherwise. Did you know many people don't even realize that dental school is 4 years?

    Who cares, anyone that is remotely close to you, or important to you in your life will know it wasn't easy and that you worked hard. You really shouldn't need any more validation than that.

    It is irrelevant to debate unless you have some self-esteem issues and need to feel superior by getting into the "harder" place. Not to mention this question gets posted every month or so and it always degrades into a meaningless online bashing of two different professions.


    Give me a break :rolleyes:
     
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  26. armorshell

    armorshell One Man Freak Show
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    I'm all for playing devil's advocate, one sided arguments are no fair, and otherwise we wouldn't have this lively thread :laugh:

    I see where you're coming from though, there are definitely some people out there who really eed to believe they're getting into the most challenging specialty, that they're doing the hardest program. Guys, med school is still harder by far, but dentistry is catching up fast.

    I also think that a poster above got it right; if dentistry were a specialty of medicine, it would probably be one of the more competitive because it's a "lifestyle" specialty. Oh well :laugh:


    As far as domestic accreditation to foreign schools...I guess was wrong when I said they "Couldn't outsource healthcare." All the more reason to get involved and have your voice heard. Vote or die.
     
  27. armorshell

    armorshell One Man Freak Show
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    Awesome post, and gut-wrenchingly true
     
  28. Drill2Fill

    Drill2Fill DentalStudentWannabe
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    Why would the ADA allow for foreign schools to be accredited? Aren't they the ones that keep dental school acceptances low so that there will not be an abundance of dentist?
     
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  29. drpduck

    drpduck Senior Member
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    I believe the issue is with certain states (e.g.-California) allowing dental graduates from certain foreign schools to come practice after taking all the normal exams (NBDE 1 and 2 etc.) but without having to go through advanced standing. While right now, I'm sure those foreign schools (one in mexico is all I know of right now) do not teach toward the NBDE like the carib med schools teach toward the USMLE. However it is a slippery slope, if more foreign schools gain accreditation, then how long do you think it would be before carib dental schools open and teach toward the NBDE (essentially teaching US students rather then native students)?

    This would lead to an oversupply of dentists and devalue our future DDS/DMD degrees. Insurance would certainly step in and dictate payment and would lead to a huge decline in quality dentistry IMO. This is what happened to physicians, more competition+greedy insurance= docs willing to work harder for less compensation, thus having to work harder to keep up the same compensation they had before. Not to mention they graduate with hundreds of thousands of dollars in debt just like we will.

    Personally I would fight the heck out of this. While the couple of schools in question now would likely have little affect on us, allowing more foreign schools accreditation will only be a bad thing.

    I may just sound greedy, but when I'm going to graduate with $250k debt (not to mention a future mortgage, kids, family, etc.), it would really be tough to make ends meet on a 50-60k salary because insurance stepped in and dictated how much we should get compensated all because some other dentists were willing to take their lower payment, similar to what happened to medicine.

    Here is some info from the ADA: http://www.ada.org/prof/resources/pubs/adanews/adanewsarticle.asp?articleid=1528
     
  30. EmanUT

    EmanUT Senior Member
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    I met someone the other day that didn't realize that dentists have to go to professional school after they are done with undergrad. He did go to Texas A&M, so I guess I'll give him a little slack.

    And for the respect thing. I bet they'll be jealous when we drive past the hospital at 4 PM in our new BMWs at age 29 and they are just arriving for a 24 hour ER shift.
     
  31. Phishfood

    Phishfood Junior Member
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    lol, sure. because we all happened to go into EM and somehow were shafted into 24 hour shifts.
     
  32. AlphaQUp

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    Umm.. My dad is an ER physician and works 12 hr shifts... The hours aren't that bad.
     
  33. Dauber

    Dauber Big Baby Jesus
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    My sentiments exactly :thumbup:
    I was going to comment on this thread but I think this post already put an end to it...
     
  34. reapply2007

    reapply2007 Senior Member
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    I was at my lawyer's office and the receptionist pointed out to me that it was really a doctor's office. Same experience as a doctor's office - hold on to your wallet.
     
  35. H2OPOLODENT

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    To answer the original question and get away from "which job is better"/"which job is more important"/"am I a doctor?" bull, I think that dentistry is becoming more competitive. However, there is no way it is as competitive as MD yet. If you look at the one comparable standard between dent and med (GPA), there are a ton of med schools that have average GPAs of 3.7-3.8+, while there are one or maybe two dental schools with GPAs over 3.7. Yeah, there are way fewer dental schools, but I would be shocked if the average GPA of entering dental students is at the level of med students.

    I think there is a very good possibility that dental schools are catching up to med in terms of competitiveness, but there's no way they have approached that level yet.
     
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  36. OceanBlue

    OceanBlue HA! I knew it.
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    When people have problems with their teeth...they go to the dentists...other problems they go to the doctors. Both dentists and doctors contribute a great deal to the public.

    Sometimes Egos get mixed up with the meaning of service to the public. Correct me if i'm wrong...service is what the health profession is all about...:rolleyes:
     
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  37. futuredds4tex

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    I completely agree with you! I want to go into this field not because it is easier or there are less requirements, it is what I want to do with my life! Teeth are important, therefore dentists are important.
    It's just a different line of work than MD's. MD's also deal with 10x's as much stuff as a dentist does! (Organs, bones, etc.) We got the teeth, they have everything else. I definetly want my MD that I see to be pretty smart if I ever have to put my life in their hands!
    But it doesn't make being a dentist a cake walk or anything! We will still be responsible for people's health and well-being...
     
  38. makushin

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    From what I've seen, DO schools are not super competitive. I will go out on a limb and say that it appears easier to get into DO school that dental school. Allopathic is certainly harder though. In terms of admissions DO<DDS<MD.
     
  39. EmanUT

    EmanUT Senior Member
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    MD and DDS are both difficult to get into. I don't necessarily think it is fair to say that MD is way harder to get into than dental school. I posted this before, but on the TMDSAS web-site, the average GPA to get into a TX med school was a 3.65 and the average GPA to get into a TX dent school was a 3.55. To me, that isn't a huge difference. (http://www.utsystem.edu/tmdsas/Final Statistics Report - Entry Year 2005 - Medical.pdf). Also, there are quite a few MD schools granting admissions to very average applicants. For instance, at Florida State Med School (MD program) the average GPA for the 2006 entering class was 3.64 and the average MCAT score was 26.72. I don't know the exact percentiles for the MCAT, but a 26.72 must be somewhere in the 60%-tile. So there, there are easy and hard med schools to get in to. There are easy and hard dental schools to get in to. Just go with the profession you want to do, the prereqs for both professional schools are identical. Do well and you will get into medical or dental school.
     
  40. EmanUT

    EmanUT Senior Member
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  41. H2OPOLODENT

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    Yeah, you're right, both are hard to get into. Some dental schools are harder to get into than other medical schools but on the average, med is still more difficult. There's really no way to reasonably argue this.

    Of course, as you point out, how difficult it is to get accepted into a profession shouldn't make a difference as far as what someone decides to do, I know it didn't make a difference for me or pretty much anyone on this forum. However, the OP asked a reasonable question that deserves an accurate answer.
     
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  42. AlphaQUp

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    FSU Med is a relatively new school. Give it a few more years to build a solid rep and it will be as competitive as the others.
     

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