Dental Hygiene school question (vaccination)

[hopefulhygienist]

Hello everyone, I'm considering going into dental hygiene school. I find many things about the field that I think I would enjoy, but of course understand it will be different in some ways in reality.

My question/concern is about being vaccinated. I understand that it's very common for healthcare fields to require vaccination. I have religious reasons for not wanting to personally be vaccinated, and no it's not "I heard some scary stuff about vaccines on the internet so now I have a religious reason for not being vaccinated".

With my personal religion, I have a very certain way of living that deals with following the "laws of nature" and how to mantain health and remain free of illness. A way that has always worked for me and to me atleast seems very logical, but I'm not here to be a missionary, haha.

I was vaccinated as every other child when I was a youngster, and to my knowledge didn't suffer any ill effects, and besides being afraid of needles I'm not afraid of vaccines, but I just find a sincere conflict with my religious beliefs. I don't even consume animal products, which is a teaching from my religion, I hold my beliefs very near and dear to my heart and don't want to have to "leave myself at the door" in order to have a career I'd like.

My question is, has anyone else claimed a religious exemption and gone into hygiene school? Was it an issue? Do you think it would create a problem? I know legally I have the right do claim an exemption, but unfortunately that doesn't mean laws will be followed or someone won't hassle me about it. I just don't want to have to be "that person" in the class.

Do dentists have a problem with their hygienists not being vaccinated? I do understand there are potential risks of contracting certain diseases/viruses such as Hep.B and several others. I do assume that the protective gear the hygienists wear including gloves, face mask, etc and keeping everything steryl may virutally make the contraction of these things impossible, maybe I'm wrong though.

I just don't want to create a big issue by claiming an exemption, and possibly even hinder my chances at employement. I would hope to be able to keep my religious practices and also pursue my preferred career.

Any advice you can give will be greatly appreciated!

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[Jungerr]

It seems odd and even contradictory to me that someone who follows the "laws of nature" would want to enter a healthcare profession.

But to stay on topic, I think people on the Dentaltown forums could help you more than a bunch of pre-dent students.

 

[hopefulhygienist]

It seems odd and even contradictory to me that someone who follows the "laws of nature" would want to enter a healthcare profession.

But to stay on topic, I think people on the Dentaltown forums could help you more than a bunch of pre-dent students.

I can understand what you mean, unfortunately in the world we live in, there's always "unnatural" things we are forced to do. I just try to do as much as I can to follow my beliefs. To me, I find that someone who does live a natural lifestyle and tries to live as humans were designed or evolved to live, would do great in the healthcare field, in other words someone who takes care of themselves and therefore can be a good example and teacher and therefore help others. I would hope a doctor wouldn't just tell people to rely on drugs for the rest of their lives instead of changing their lifestyle and getting to the root cause of their illnesses.

Thank you for the advice, I might give that other forum a try!

 

[NDPitch]

I think your most immediate issue would be convincing a hygiene school to even let you in the clinic, never mind the classroom. At pretty much any dental/medical school, you essentially aren't allowed to step in the clinic/hospital until your immunization records have been verified, and you've been tested for TB. Period. These are laws and regulations. Most healthcare workers are usually mandated to receive seasonal flu shots as well. I am not aware of any religious exemptions where this requirement is relaxed. From what I've seen, most health fields take vaccinations and infection control very seriously.

 

[hopefulhygienist]

I think your most immediate issue would be convincing a hygiene school to even let you in the clinic, never mind the classroom. At pretty much any dental/medical school, you essentially aren't allowed to step in the clinic/hospital until your immunization records have been verified, and you've been tested for TB. Period. These are laws and regulations. Most healthcare workers are usually mandated to receive seasonal flu shots as well. I am not aware of any religious exemptions where this requirement is relaxed. From what I've seen, most health fields take vaccinations and infection control very seriously.

I've spoken to someone from the school about nursing, another program I was interested in and they said there was an exemption to claim, but didn't seem to just want to let me do that and drop it. In my state and almost every state in the country people are allowed to claim either a medical or religious exemption for school or work. In fact, if you go into a hospital and see nurses walking around with a face mask on, it's most likely because they opted out the flu vaccine. I've actually personally asked several nurses and they said it was for that very reason. If they opt out of the vaccine, they are required to wear a face mask.

If I were to take the vaccine but yet still get the flu, could the school be held liable? I ask that not to cause an issue, but because that happens very often. A quick look into the Journal of American medicine and many other journals would show this clearly.

I mention this because when I realized the conflict with my beliefs this would have, I tried to convince myself to go against my beliefs. I did a lot of research to try and see if it was indeed the smarter choice to "comply" with vaccination. I thought I would find that being vaccinated was a sure fire way to avoid the flu or any other illness, and I was incredibly wrong. For the seasonal flu for example, although the numbers with any type of trial can vary for any number of reasosn there is a clear pattern of around half or slightly less still contracting the flu after being vaccinated, and then ofcourse the people who don't get the flu can't be said they didn't get it because of the vaccine, it's just an association. Those people may have remained flu free without the vaccination. It's like saying drinking soda causes depression because there is a certain perecentage of depressed people who drink soda, it may just be "guilt by association".

I can justify being required to go against my deeply held religious beliefs for something that has been shown time and time again to be innefective nearly half the time..........

 

[jeffity]

Now you're getting into dangerous territory. Most aren't going to have concrete answers about exempting oneself from vaccinations in hygiene school. Have you spoken to any admissions people at actual schools? Religion/beliefs/etc is one thing, but if you're going to dip into science and research about vaccinations around here, you better be toting some sources for those claims you're making. This is microbio basics material.

 

[NDPitch]

Now you're getting into dangerous territory. Most aren't going to have concrete answers about exempting oneself from vaccinations in hygiene school. Have you spoken to any admissions people at actual schools? Religion/beliefs/etc is one thing, but if you're going to dip into science and research about vaccinations around here, you better be toting some sources for those claims you're making. This is microbio basics material.

Took the words out of my mouth.

 

[hopefulhygienist]

Now you're getting into dangerous territory. Most aren't going to have concrete answers about exempting oneself from vaccinations in hygiene school. Have you spoken to any admissions people at actual schools? Religion/beliefs/etc is one thing, but if you're going to dip into science and research about vaccinations around here, you better be toting some sources for those claims you're making. This is microbio basics material.

Sure, I'll link the recent study from the CDC, I have many more if you'd like. Read the study all the way through, the results were that the influenza vaccine was effective for 58% of those aged 6 months-17 years, 46% for persons aged 18–49 years, and 50% for persons aged 50–64 years. This is a huge percentage of innefectiveness. I would be entirely justified in not wanting to comply with vaccination for scientific and statistical reasons, and ironically having my justification from the same sources that make it a requirement......... I wasnt going to mention the one statistic in the study because its the least likely age group in school but it's still worth mentioning, in persons over the age of 65 the influenza vaccine was only effective 9% of the time. Facts are a stubborn thing are they not?

Here's the study, Enjoy! : )

http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/mm6207a2.htm?s_cid=mm6207a2_w

 

[hopefulhygienist]

Now you're getting into dangerous territory. Most aren't going to have concrete answers about exempting oneself from vaccinations in hygiene school. Have you spoken to any admissions people at actual schools? Religion/beliefs/etc is one thing, but if you're going to dip into science and research about vaccinations around here, you better be toting some sources for those claims you're making. This is microbio basics material.

I forgot to respond to one of your questions. Yes, I have spoken to admissions faculty at the school and was informed there was a religious exemption, but it didn't seem like they were "okay" with it. I was asked a lot of questions about why and "what if" type scenarios. It didn't seem like it was going to be an easy process to say the least.

 

[doc toothache]

Vaccinations are designed to protect the individual and, more importantly, to protect the unprotected from contact with potential carriers.

 

[hopefulhygienist]

Vaccinations are designed to protect the individual and, more importantly, to protect the unprotected from contact with potential carriers.

I understand the philosophy. But I don't know if you read the study I posted, but the influenza vaccine which is a very common requirement does not protect individuals most of the time.........

 

[dieanotherday]

these regulations have been around for quite some time
i teach at a middle/high school and kids cant enroll unless they have their immunizations verified/updated
if parents dont go to the lengths to vaccinate their kids then we won't let them come in
parents are stuck with home-schooling

a couple weeks down the road, suddenly parents become compliant and their kids are vaccinated
there is no way to get around this

 

[doc toothache]

I understand the philosophy. But I don't know if you read the study I posted, but the influenza vaccine which is a very common requirement does not protect individuals most of the time.........

You want an exemption based on your religious beliefs and/or the efficacy of the required vaccinations?

 

[soydentista]

You will not be admitted to the program if you can not comply with the school rules and regulations!! I am a dental hygienist and getting vacinnation not only protect you but also your patients. You will be in contact with blood every day, and no school will risk having someone like you that can potentially risk gettin a law suit. If you like the field of dentistry maybe consider working as a front desk!! Good luck with that

 

[hopefulhygienist]

You will not be admitted to the program if you can not comply with the school rules and regulations!! I am a dental hygienist and getting vacinnation not only protect you but also your patients. You will be in contact with blood every day, and no school will risk having someone like you that can potentially risk gettin a law suit. If you like the field of dentistry maybe consider working as a front desk!! Good luck with that

Again, what you're saying "sounds good" but in reality it doesn't work. I posted a study from the CDC about the flu vaccine and it shows being vaccinated you are more likely to contract the flu than not! Again, it sounds good and jolly to think you are protecting yourself and others but the actual science shows otherwise. I might even be willing to go against my beliefs if I had a good reason to. I would not have a problem signing a contract stating that I choose not to be vaccinated and will not hold the school or employer responsible for any disease or illness I may or may not contract.......

 

[hopefulhygienist]

You want an exemption based on your religious beliefs and/or the efficacy of the required vaccinations?

Based on religious beliefs, and have held the view that i might be willing to go against my religious beliefs if I had logical and scientific reasons to do so, afterall I don't want to just be a religious bigot.

 

[soydentista]

Again, what you're saying "sounds good" but in reality it doesn't work. I posted a study from the CDC about the flu vaccine and it shows being vaccinated you are more likely to contract the flu than not! Again, it sounds good and jolly to think you are protecting yourself and others but the actual science shows otherwise. I might even be willing to go against my beliefs if I had a good reason to. I would not have a problem signing a contract stating that I choose not to be vaccinated and will not hold the school or employer responsible for any disease or illness I may or may not contract.......

We are NOT talking about a simple flu my dear, we are talking about Hepatitis B vaccinations!! Best thing to do is to contact schools and ask question!! If you cannot take shots you cannot be admitted.

 

[IsaacYankem]

 

[hopefulhygienist]

We are NOT talking about a simple flu my dear, we are talking about Hepatitis B vaccinations!! Best thing to do is to contact schools and ask question!! If you cannot take shots you cannot be admitted.

I understand, and you're assuming the hep B vaccine is effective as well. I'd be curious to know how a dental hygienist with protective gear on could contract hep B, and spread it to someone else, especially considering I don't have the virus........... Maybe the patients could be vaccinated and therefore not have to worry about contracting anything? By not being vaccinated are not they "asking for trouble". I have called them and get the run around, guess the law doesn't mean anything to people anymore. There is a religious exemption, but if a law was all the was needed we wouldn't need police officers or prisons, if a door was enough we wouldn't need locks.

 

[dieanotherday]

I understand, and you're assuming the hep B vaccine is effective as well. I'd be curious to know how a dental hygienist with protective gear on could contract hep B, and spread it to someone else, especially considering I don't have the virus........... Maybe the patients could be vaccinated and therefore not have to worry about contracting anything? By not being vaccinated are not they "asking for trouble". I have called them and get the run around, guess the law doesn't mean anything to people anymore. There is a religious exemption, but if a law was all the was needed we wouldn't need police officers or prisons, if a door was enough we wouldn't need locks.

this is so ridiculous, you are not going to change federal/state regulations
maybe you can lobby this issue and get rules to change which will probably take you longer to change this than it will to apply, get in, do the work, and graduate

exceptions will not be made for you

even if you continue to pester and argue your point to adcoms/admin of schools and send them your link to the research you googled they will not let you in without the shots

these are hard facts

 

[NDPitch]

This is ridiculous. The flu vaccine is an attempt to vaccinate you against a highly mutable strain of the virus - of course it's not going to be 100% effective. But putting into question vaccines against things like Hepatitis and MMR is asinine. You can believe whatever you want, that's your prerogative. But don't try to disprove scientific fact and expect people to bend the rules for you. There's thousands of people in line behind you that will be happy to show their vaccination history and get into the program.

There's nothing left to see here people. Move along, move along.

 

[EasTexan]

I understand, and you're assuming the hep B vaccine is effective as well.

Um, it's effective: "The recommended series of three intramuscular doses of hepatitis B vaccine induces a protective antibody response (anti-HBs >=10 milli-inter- national units {mIU}/mL) in >90% of healthy adults and in >95% of infants, children, and adolescents (31-33)."

http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/00033405.htm

 

[soydentista]

Haha, this thread is so ridiculous!!

 

[ktran17]

Since you received vaccines as a child, you probably have satisfied most of the requirements.

The two you will probably need are the TDAP and two step TB test.

In addition, we are not concerned with diseases like influenza, but more dangerous things like TB.

TB is a mycobaterium and is really difficult to get rid because of the physical nature of the bacterium. I won't go into the specifics, but you would be putting patients in harms way and forcing them to undergo a ridiculous treatment session. This includes multiple antibody tests, xray examinations, and months of antibiotics etc.

I'll be blunt, if you aren't wiling to make the sacrifice needed for your patients, pursue a different field. Why should schools bother accepting you when there are thousand of other applicants willing to take your place?

When you go into a health-care field, it isn't about you. It's about your patients..

 

[Glimmer1991]

The "law of nature" is that teeth decay. As a hygienist, you are trying to halt that process. The very field goes against your own beliefs.

As others have stated, even if you are willing to put yourself at risk, no one is going to let you put patients at risk. Even if some school happened to let you in, good luck finding a dentist who would hire you. You would be a MAJOR liability.

 

[Mad Jack]

The hep B vaccine is ridiculously effective and you would be quite stupid to not get it. No amount of healthy living and lifestyle changes are going to protect you if you get scraped by an instrument that is infected by a patient with a high viral load. Hep B was a serious illness among healthcare workers before the vaccine came about, costing thousands of innocent lives to early liver failure. As you haven't worked in health care, I'm sure you believe that you would never be in a situation in which you would run the risk of infection, but let me assure you, mistakes happen all the time and all it takes is one to ruin your life. Get vaccinated or stay out of the field, partly for your sake, but mostly for your patients.

 

[fayevalentine]

I feel a little bad for the OP, as it seems like everyone is kind of attacking him/her. To be honest, I do agree with many of the previous posters' points, but I just want to give the OP a good answer, not make them feel bad for thinking a certain way 🙂.

@hopefulhygienist: Your best bet would be to call the schools you are considering applying to and ask them directly. Before doing this, however, and wasting your time on a degree that could be potentially useless, you should ask some actual dentists their opinions and find out whether or not they would employ someone such as yourself. Maybe even contact a lawyer and see if it is legal for you to practice without vaccinations in your state - I have no idea, as I've never looked into this (and I'm not sure the majority of other pre-dents are law experts 🙂 ). I understand you have the right to practice your religion, but not to endanger others (patients). This is regardless of whether or not that endangerment potential is very tiny or a huge risk. I would not be too surprised if you were told you had to get vaccinated in order to practice. Good luck to you!

 

[ktran17]

Constitutional rights are not all powerful. These liberties are given to the citizenry of the United States under the condition that it does not harmfully affect another individual. That's why we can't yell fire in a movie theater and simply claim freedom of speech.

I honestly do not think the freedom of religion clause should exempt an individual if there is evidence that it has the potential of harming a significant portion of the population.

 

[hopefulhygienist]

Um, it's effective: "The recommended series of three intramuscular doses of hepatitis B vaccine induces a protective antibody response (anti-HBs >=10 milli-inter- national units {mIU}/mL) in >90% of healthy adults and in >95% of infants, children, and adolescents (31-33)."

http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/00033405.htm

I wonder why it was innefective in 10% of healthy adults and 5 percent in the other group? I do agree certain vaccines are more effective than others, but unfortunately creating antibodies alone isn't enough to prevent viral infections. In fact there are individuals who have a disorder that causes them to not even be able to produce antibodies, the name of the condition slips my mind at the moment. Antibodies fighting off a virus is only a small portion of the immune systems way to ward off intruders. I get the philospohy of me "putting patients in danger", but isn't living an unhealthy lifestyle the same thing? What if I was one of the 10% of thus got hep B from someone? I don't understand how anything could be forced upon you if it doesn't work 100% of the time. To me the most logical thing is for those people who want to be vaccinated including patient, get vaccinated! And according to the logic, I can't infect them right? If someone doesn't get vaccinated including patients, do they have the right to complain about getting a virus? Or can joe the plumber sue the gas station clerk because

 

[dieanotherday]

I wonder why it was innefective in 10% of healthy adults and 5 percent in the other group? I do agree certain vaccines are more effective than others, but unfortunately creating antibodies alone isn't enough to prevent viral infections. In fact there are individuals who have a disorder that causes them to not even be able to produce antibodies, the name of the condition slips my mind at the moment. Antibodies fighting off a virus is only a small portion of the immune systems way to ward off intruders. I get the philospohy of me "putting patients in danger", but isn't living an unhealthy lifestyle the same thing? What if I was one of the 10% of thus got hep B from someone? I don't understand how anything could be forced upon you if it doesn't work 100% of the time. To me the most logical thing is for those people who want to be vaccinated including patient, get vaccinated! And according to the logic, I can't infect them right? If someone doesn't get vaccinated including patients, do they have the right to complain about getting a virus? Or can joe the plumber sue the gas station clerk because

stahp

i think OP might still be in HS

 

[haiKUHN]

You're worried about the lowly 46% effectiveness rate for individuals within our age group, but choosing to go without a flu vaccine is 0% effective. Your beliefs and values are your own, but I personally feel that it is just plain irresponsible for a healthcare provider of any nature to go unvaccinated.

 

[hopefulhygienist]

The hep B vaccine is ridiculously effective and you would be quite stupid to not get it. No amount of healthy living and lifestyle changes are going to protect you if you get scraped by an instrument that is infected by a patient with a high viral load. Hep B was a serious illness among healthcare workers before the vaccine came about, costing thousands of innocent lives to early liver failure. As you haven't worked in health care, I'm sure you believe that you would never be in a situation in which you would run the risk of infection, but let me assure you, mistakes happen all the time and all it takes is one to ruin your life. Get vaccinated or stay out of the field, partly for your sake, but mostly for your patients.

As another member posted, in healthy adults the hep b vaccine in 10% innefective, doesn't sound like an issue right? Okay, well based on those statistics we take 100,000 health care workes and 10K of them can still spread and contract the virus........... I guess I'd just have to hope I wasn't one of the 10%. And 10,000 nurses walking around thinking they are protected but actually can spread the disease is not a danger to patients? The worst part is the entire medical staff and patients has no idea who that 10% are........

I don't understand why everyone has to be a jerk about this, I thought people might respect my views here, even if they don't match theirs.

 

[dieanotherday]

As another member posted, in healthy adults the hep b vaccine in 10% innefective, doesn't sound like an issue right? Okay, well based on those statistics we take 100,000 health care workes and 10K of them can still spread and contract the virus........... I guess I'd just have to hope I wasn't one of the 10%. And 10,000 nurses walking around thinking they are protected but actually can spread the disease is not a danger to patients? The worst part is the entire medical staff and patients has no idea who that 10% are........

I don't understand why everyone has to be a jerk about this, I thought people might respect my views here, even if they don't match theirs.

I am trying to tell you that hygiene schools will respect your views, you are entitled to them
but they will not let you go to their school. end of discussion.

 

[hopefulhygienist]

You're worried about the lowly 46% effectiveness rate for individuals within our age group, but choosing to go without a flu vaccine is 0% effective. Your beliefs and values are your own, but I personally feel that it is just plain irresponsible for a healthcare provider of any nature to go unvaccinated.

0% effective? so everyone who isn't vaccinated and is exposed to the virus gets the flu??? I'm trying not to laugh at this. I guess that explains why I haven't had the flu in over 10 years, ironically when I stopped being vaccinated, while my family and friends who get vaccinated commonly get the flu........ Antibody production isnt the holy grail of the immune system like the pharma companies want you to believe, there are people can't even produce antibodies who don't get the flu. you and two other can be standing in an elevator and one has the flu and you are vaccinated and the other person is not. If you are not healthy and have a poor immune system you're more likely to get the flu than even the unvaccinated individual, the statistics show mere antibody production is not enough. If 46% of the people get the flu when exposed to it, what do you think the results would be like when exposed to hep b?

 

[hopefulhygienist]

I am trying to tell you that hygiene schools will respect your views, you are entitled to them
but they will not let you go to their school. end of discussion.

I don't know if what you are saying is true, I got the chance to speak to the school and they told me in the last class there were several who got exemptions, apparently I'm not the only one here. Sorry for getting testy with you if I did, I just didn't expect everyone to want to "burn the witch" lol.

 

[dieanotherday]

I don't know if what you are saying is true, I got the chance to speak to the school and they told me in the last class there were several who got exemptions, apparently I'm not the only one here. Sorry for getting testy with you if I did, I just didn't expect everyone to want to "burn the witch" lol.

Ive already had my vaccinations as a child, and i got dtap and i did a tb test last year for an abroad medical mission

my records are little stamps on the old crusty immunization record card in which all the important ink has faded to the point where it is not legible
i had to get all my shots again because the places i got my vaccines no longer exist so they dont have my records plus you can get rid of patient files after 7 years

my BELIEFS: i already had them done i dont want to do them again
school said do a titer to prove you're immune
my WALLET: titers are more expensive than the actual shots
conclusion: i got all the shots again.

doesnt matter what your reasons are, you have to get them done
but as a solution for you, since you said you were vaccinated as a child spend the money for the titer and prove you're immune so you don't have to get re-vaccinated

tb test is unavoidable.

 

[hopefulhygienist]

The hep B vaccine is ridiculously effective and you would be quite stupid to not get it. No amount of healthy living and lifestyle changes are going to protect you if you get scraped by an instrument that is infected by a patient with a high viral load. Hep B was a serious illness among healthcare workers before the vaccine came about, costing thousands of innocent lives to early liver failure. As you haven't worked in health care, I'm sure you believe that you would never be in a situation in which you would run the risk of infection, but let me assure you, mistakes happen all the time and all it takes is one to ruin your life. Get vaccinated or stay out of the field, partly for your sake, but mostly for your patients.

Forgot to mention the obvious here. First off I didn't want this to turn into a scientific discussion as it was never intended to be, but since you all want to I have no problem doing so either. Hep b is a virus is it not? So is influenza. In the study another person here posted it showed 10% of healthy adults did not produce antibodies, okay, so besides the 10% of healthcare workers still potentially spreading the virus lets go to another point. In the study there is a flaw, or atleast a flaw in the conclusion the other person came to. They never exposed the 90% with antibodies to the hep b virus.......... why is this important? Well just as with the flu vaccine example, they actually exposed those who did produce antibodies and 54% of them still got the virus! If you were to give those people with the hep b vaccine exposure to the virus you would be quite shocked........... as I said before having appropriate antibodies is not enough to prevent the virus. If not the antibodies preventing the virus then what does? The conditions within the body....... how bout' that?

 

[hopefulhygienist]

I feel a little bad for the OP, as it seems like everyone is kind of attacking him/her. To be honest, I do agree with many of the previous posters' points, but I just want to give the OP a good answer, not make them feel bad for thinking a certain way 🙂.

@hopefulhygienist: Your best bet would be to call the schools you are considering applying to and ask them directly. Before doing this, however, and wasting your time on a degree that could be potentially useless, you should ask some actual dentists their opinions and find out whether or not they would employ someone such as yourself. Maybe even contact a lawyer and see if it is legal for you to practice without vaccinations in your state - I have no idea, as I've never looked into this (and I'm not sure the majority of other pre-dents are law experts 🙂 ). I understand you have the right to practice your religion, but not to endanger others (patients). This is regardless of whether or not that endangerment potential is very tiny or a huge risk. I would not be too surprised if you were told you had to get vaccinated in order to practice. Good luck to you!

Thank you very much for the help! I wish everyone else could respond in the same way instead of calling me stupid. I'll call around to some dentists and see what they say. To me anyway I would think the school would have the biggest issue with it, not the dentist but it's probably different for each dentist. I might meet one who has no problem with it, and then another who thinks I'm an idiot.

 

[haiKUHN]

You're being kinda ridiculous. Anyone interested in providing the general population with healthcare services should be able to see why getting vaccinations is so important, especially with the considerable immunosuppressed population and the need for herd immunity. You came to a forum filled with individuals who will be primary care providers and are getting upset that we aren't telling you that your choice not to receive vaccinations will go swimmingly. I don't know what you expected to hear really. And if you've spoken with so many admissions counselors and others in the healthcare field, then why bother asking a bunch of predents?

EDIT: I wanted to add, I also do not currently get the flu vaccine. I never have and have never had the flu. But I will do it once in dental school and won't really think twice about it.

 

[hopefulhygienist]

You're being kinda ridiculous. Anyone interested in providing the general population with healthcare services should be able to see why getting vaccinations is so important, especially with the considerable immunosuppressed population and the need for herd immunity. You came to a forum filled with individuals who will be primary care providers and are getting upset that we aren't telling you that your choice not to receive vaccinations will go swimmingly. I don't know what you expected to hear really. And if you've spoken with so many admissions counselors and others in the healthcare field, then why bother asking a bunch of predents?

EDIT: I wanted to add, I also do not currently get the flu vaccine. I never have and have never had the flu. But I will do it once in dental school and won't really think twice about it.

How am I being ridiculous? You didn't seem to think my points were invalid as you didn't respond to them, or at least that's my assumption. The immunosuppressed population includes healthcare workers, and this was my entire point. The vaccine alone is not enough to ensure avoiding contracting the flu,hep B or any other virus, this isn't just my opinion, clinical studies show this time and time again. And as I mentioned with the flu virus, 54% of young to middle age adults still got the flu after being exposed to it, and these were vaccinated individuals. I would assume the hep b results would be somewhat similiar, we dont know as I'm sure exposing someone to such a dangerous virus intentionally might be deemed cruel. I'm not upset that people tell me that It might be a difficult road, but people call me stupid when I'm just making points supported by facts.........But regardless I think I have gotten some good ideas here, thanks for the help.

P.S. I'm surprised you haven't gotten the flu yet, must be those antibodies you produced from getting the vaccine...... oh wait......

 

[haiKUHN]

Like I said, your choice is your choice. But we, as pre-dents, are your potential employers. You've gotten multiple responses stating that you will be considered a liability without the vaccine, so I think that should answer your original question regarding employment issues. God speed and good luck on your quest.

 

[ktran17]

To the OP:

I do not think anyone on this board is arguing if vaccines will give you a 100% chance of immunity. You are also correct that antibodies are not the only thing that determines immunity to a particular pathogen. As you will learn later, our body and its' metabolites are regulated through integrative metabolism. What this means is that the concentration of certain products of your body determines if things get activated or deactivated, and ultimately if a certain biochemical pathway can be completed. Antibodies are just one way our body fights foreign invaders.

However, being a health care member, what you're trying to do is prevent infection and diseases from spreading. How we go about accomplishing this is by lowering the probability of pathogens being spread around in the clinic. Thus, that's why we sterilize things, vaccinate team members, and perform other aseptic techniques. We want the environment to be as sterile as possible. Now, does that mean we get rid of every single damn bug? No, it does not. Nonetheless, by getting team members vaccinated we lower the probability of spreading dangerous pathogens.

That is the purpose of the vaccine, not only to protect staff members, but also to prevent the spread of these dangerous pathogens.

So yes, even though not everyone who gets a vaccine is going to be 100% protected, this process will still lower the chances of spreading pathogens and thus establishes a safer environment for our patients.

That is the end goal, to ensure that the patient remains safe..

 

[hopefulhygienist]

To the OP:

I do not think anyone on this board is arguing if vaccines will give you a 100% chance of immunity. You are also correct that antibodies are not the only thing that determines immunity to a particular pathogen. As you will learn later, our body and its' metabolites are regulated through integrated metabolism. What this means is that the concentration of certain products of your body determines if things get activated or deactivated, and ultimately if a certain biochemical pathway can be completed. Antibodies are just one way our body fights foreign invaders.

However, being a health care member, what you're trying to do is prevent infection and diseases from spreading. How we go about accomplishing this by lowering the probability of pathogens being spread around in the clinic. Thus, that's why we sterilize things, vaccinate team members, and perform other aseptic techniques. We want the environment to be as sterile as possible. Now, does that mean we get rid of every single damn bug? No, it does not. Nonetheless, by getting team members vaccinated we lower the probability of spreading dangerous pathogens.

That is the purpose of the vaccine, not only to protect staff members, but also to prevent the spread of these dangerous pathogens.

So yes, even though not everyone who gets a vaccine is going to be 100% protected, this process will still lower the chances of spreading pathogens and thus establishes a safer environment for our patients.

That is the end goal, to ensure that the patient remains safe..

Thank you for the respectful response. I see what you're saying and see the "common sense" in it. You're saying that even if the vaccines only work half the time, it is still increasing the odds overall of protecting everyone, I get that. My issue with it, is that my religious beliefs go entirely contrary to vaccination. All health care workers being disease free such as not having diabetes and other chronic illnesses that suppress the immune system would also lower chances. Making sure all health care workers take care of themselves, don't eat junk food, don't eat too much sugar, don't drink alchohol, etc would also greatly lower odds of virus contraction but no one makes that mandatory. To me it seems they are cherry picking how to more protect patients. A healthcare worker can drink at home and smoke like a freight train which obviously puts their immune system at a poorer state, and no one says a word. I dont think it's logical to only make people do certain things and cherry pick others not to do. Hope I'm making sense here. No one tells me I can't eat or drink something, which obviouslly puts my health in the balance, but someone can tell me what vaccines I have to take?

It seems to me the reason for people getting sick even though they got the vaccine comes down to overall health, yet this isn't mandated in hospitals...........

 

[ktran17]

The reason why those aren't mandated is because its practically impossible to enforce. It cannot be standardized or properly controlled. How would you know if a staff member ate a bad diet, didn't exercise etc etc. There are means to finding those things out but it would not financially viable.

In addition, vaccines are more specific than mandating a person to live a super healthy life style. Vaccines are required because they are specific and thus drastically lowers the probability of certain dangerous bacteria from being spread. They are also cost efficient.

In a perfect world, we would require staff members to do everything humanly possible to ensure tip top health. However, the reality is that social and political ramifications also have to be taken into consideration. It is a lot easier to mandate a person to take a simple shot versus requiring them to exercise and eat a certain type of food. Can you imagine the lawsuits that would follow if a boss dictated the life style of his/her's employees?

I understand that it is your religious faith that prevents you from getting vaccinated, however like I said earlier, freedom of religion should and does not apply when that same right could potentially endanger other people.

 

[hopefulhygienist]

The reason why those aren't mandated is because its practically impossible to enforce. It cannot be standardized or properly controlled. How would you know if a staff member ate a bad diet, didn't exercise etc etc. There are means to finding those things out but it would not financially viable.

In addition, vaccines are more specific than mandating a person to live a super healthy life style. Vaccines are required because they are specific and thus drastically lowers the probability of certain dangerous bacteria from being spread. They are also cost efficient.

In a perfect world, we would require staff members to do everything humanly possible to ensure tip top health. However, the reality is that social and political ramifications also have to be taken into consideration. It is a lot easier to mandate a person take a simple shot versus requiring them to exercise and eat a certain type of food. Can you imagine the lawsuits that would follow if a boss dictated the life style of his/her's employees?

I understand that it is your religious faith that prevents you from getting vaccinated, however like I said earlier, freedom of religion should and does not apply when that same right could potentially endanger other people.

To play devils advocate here, even though it's a small percentage of people, are not the vaccines possibly putting me in danger? Every vaccine in existence has had adverse effects on someone, if I'm not mistaken there have been billions awarded to people over the years for adverse effects over vaccines. So because of the possibility while small, wouldn't that qualify me to not be required to take them? If I have to take something because if I don't I could endanger other people, why should I not be allowed to decline vaccines since there is also a chance of me having an adverse effect? Or the vaccine not being effective at all. To me, needing to be vaccinated is part of a lifestyle, it's something that is done every year. and lawsuits occur all the time over vaccines already....... The logic seems contradictory and hypocrytical to me. I'm not saying you are being that way, I just mean the expectations by "the system" in general. I'm required to take something because if I don't it might harm someone else, but if something I take has the chance (no matter what the odds) of harming me, I'm not allowed to decline. Sounds like a double standard to me......... Not to mention, no one requires the patients to be vaccinated. Why not just let all those who dont want to get sick be vaccinated and if they don't they have no right to complain or hold anyone liable? Sounds like a free country to me........

 

[ModifiedBass]

http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/00056803.htm#00003753.htm

Do you argue the efficacy of mandated vaccinations? If so, I would advise you to do a little research in public health. At this point you're just grasping at straws. No one will tell you what you can't eat/drink, as ktran17 said it isn't practical. But, if there is a method to efficiently drastically reduce disease, then it will be implemented. You are correct that 48/50 states do, in some way, implement their right to provide exemptions for religious reasons to these mandatory vaccinations, but will a school whose goal it is to educate and produce professionals into the healthcare industry do the same? I sure hope not. By all means, practice your religion how you see fit, but when it comes to healthcare, there's no place for endangerment of your patients due to not following a simple way to help prevent disease.

 

[Godspeedyou]

 

[hopefulhygienist]

The reason why those aren't mandated is because its practically impossible to enforce. It cannot be standardized or properly controlled. How would you know if a staff member ate a bad diet, didn't exercise etc etc. There are means to finding those things out but it would not financially viable.

In addition, vaccines are more specific than mandating a person to live a super healthy life style. Vaccines are required because they are specific and thus drastically lowers the probability of certain dangerous bacteria from being spread. They are also cost efficient.

In a perfect world, we would require staff members to do everything humanly possible to ensure tip top health. However, the reality is that social and political ramifications also have to be taken into consideration. It is a lot easier to mandate a person take a simple shot versus requiring them to exercise and eat a certain type of food. Can you imagine the lawsuits that would follow if a boss dictated the life style of his/her's employees?

I understand that it is your religious faith that prevents you from getting vaccinated, however like I said earlier, freedom of religion should and does not apply when that same right could potentially endanger other people.

Also something I forgot to add, again to play the devils advocate: I think we would all agree a patient is more likely to contract something from another patient, being they are already at a lowered health state. So why not make all patients vaccinated so that other patients can not get sick by them? So it's fine for patients to spread God only knows to every other patient in the hospital, but if the patient gets it from the healthcare worker it's a different story? You see my point? When looked at in this light it seems to be more about "caring about the patients because we don't want to get sued", more than actually caring about the patients.

It's common knowledge that people get sick all the time from other patients at hospitals, whether it be sitting in the waiting room with 10 people who have the flu, or being in a hospital bed next to a sick person. Infact about 80,000 people die a year from infections they got while being in hospitals, and no one bats an eyelash? I have seen clinics and hospitals require or at least ask patients who exhibit flu symptoms to wear a mask over their mouth. I have never heard of patients being required to be vaccinated in order to protect other patients. It just seems very nonsensical to me to make healthcare workers vaccinated while there are thousands of sick people in the hospital spreading everything under the sun, and that's fine...........

 

[ktran17]

They cannot mandate patients to get vaccinated because the clinic or hospital holds no authority over the patients... Plus, if you required all your patients to get vaccinated it would not be cost effective. Health-care practitioners already have a difficult time convincing stubborn patients to come in for preventive check ups. You cannot expect the same standards to be upheld for both the staff members and people outside of the clinic.

Like I said, in a perfect world, you would want everything sterile and everyone as healthy as possible. That is not reality and the suggestions you offer are not enforceable. It is unrealistic.

Every organization, be it a business, school, etc has standards. Expecting those same standards to be applied to the rest of society is ludicrous. You're basically saying, well if I have to do this, why doesn't everyone else? Because everyone else is not working for a health care organization..

No one is forcing you to attend a health professional school nor would an employer force you to work at a particular business. You have the freedom and the choice to do something else. Do not expect an entire organization to change the rules just because you feel their policies are wrong. If a break out occurred, would you be ok if you were held liable?

 

[ModifiedBass]

Also something I forgot to add, again to play the devils advocate: I think we would all agree a patient is more likely to contract something from another patient, being they are already at a lowered health state. So why not make all patients vaccinated so that other patients can not get sick by them? So it's fine for patients to spread God only knows to every other patient in the hospital, but if the patient gets it from the healthcare worker it's a different story? You see my point? When looked at in this light it seems to be more about "caring about the patients because we don't want to get sued", more than actually caring about the patients.

It's common knowledge that people get sick all the time from other patients at hospitals, whether it be sitting in the waiting room with 10 people who have the flu, or being in a hospital bed next to a sick person. Infact about 80,000 people die a year from infections they got while being in hospitals, and no one bats an eyelash? I have seen clinics and hospitals require or at least ask patients who exhibit flu symptoms to wear a mask over their mouth. I have never heard of patients being required to be vaccinated in order to protect other patients. It just seems very nonsensical to me to make healthcare workers vaccinated while there are thousands of sick people in the hospital spreading everything under the sun, and that's fine...........

So your logic is if someone else isn't educated enough to do something, you shouldn't do it either? This is the antithesis of the message of public health. And people do "bat an eyelash", there is extensive research into controlling HAI's. Health, oddly enough, should be promoted first and foremost by the healthcare provider, hence why they are required to have their vaccinations. Attempted prevention is the first step.