dental projected outlook

[emilia112]

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hey can anyone tell me honestly the projected outlook of dentistry in the future. Is this career stable and still well paid? Is it also AI resistant? i just want to know if it is worth it because it’s so expensive. i would appreciate any input

 

[Big Time Hoosier]

hey can anyone tell me honestly the projected outlook of dentistry in the future. Is this career stable and still well paid? Is it also AI resistant? i just want to know if it is worth it because it’s so expensive. i would appreciate any input

Let me check my magic 8 ball…

Big Hoss

 

[emilia112]

Let me check my magic 8 ball…

View attachment 407317

Big Hoss

is there another career u think is better

 

[Bigjt1420]

I think it's as stable as one could reasonably hope for because of the hands-on aspect. AI can do a lot but we are nowhere close to being able to have robots do precise movements with high speed drills.

In terms of money -- It's worth it if you don't have a ton of student loan debt. If you do, the waters get much more murky

 

[JacquesVallee]

I would not recommend dentistry.

 

[emilia112]

I would not recommend dentistry.

why and what would u recommend instead

 

[JacquesVallee]

why and what would u recommend instead

Starting salary yearly is 120k which has not even remotely kept up with inflation- it was 120k when I graduated and is 120k now-, absolutely insane tuition costs like please do not go into dentistry for more than 200k, incredibly stressful job where patients will openly tell you how much they don't want to see you, the work is exhausting and surprisingly labor intensive, DSOs are currently taking over this profession, if you want to specialize you'll have to spend even more money, etc etc.

I can't recommend anything instead since I don't know you or your interests.

 

[emilia112]

Starting salary yearly is 120k which has not even remotely kept up with inflation- it was 120k when I graduated and is 120k now-, absolutely insane tuition costs like please do not go into dentistry for more than 200k, incredibly stressful job where patients will openly tell you how much they don't want to see you, the work is exhausting and surprisingly labor intensive, DSOs are currently taking over this profession, if you want to specialize you'll have to spend even more money, etc etc.

I can't recommend anything instead since I don't know you or your interests.

i’m interested in anything medical

 

[JacquesVallee]

i’m interested in anything medical

Explore nursing, PA, perfusion, AA, medicine, etc. So many to choose from. You just have to do your homework and weigh the pros and cons of each.

 

[emilia112]

Explore nursing, PA, perfusion, AA, medicine, etc. So many to choose from. You just have to do your homework and weigh the pros and cons of each.

but ur saying dentist isn’t worth it wb medicine? (pediatrician maybe)

 

[charlestweed]

Many dentists tell the students not to pursue dentistry because of the oversaturation, hand and back pain, insurance pay cuts, ungrateful patients etc. Many physicians advise students to stay away from medicine as well because of the mid-level providers, AI, long work hours, and insurance pay cuts etc. The reality is no one really likes their job. Work is not supposed to be fun. Every job has its pros and cons. People work because they have bills to pay and have family to support. The goal should be to work as hard as you can (when you’re young and healthy) and save as much as you can so you won’t have to work and deal with the job that you hate when you are older.

I remember when my younger brother applied for med schools 20 years ago, my cousin, who’s a MD anesthesiologist, told him not to do it and that he should go to dental school and become an orthodontist like me. And now, my younger brother is a practicing GI doctor and is doing very well (better than me, financially). But like my cousin, my brother tells many college students (including my son) to stay away from medicine. But my son doesn’t listen to him….he is working hard on his secondary applications for med schools right now.

My niece (the daughter of the anesthesiologist whom I mentioned above) is studying for the DAT right now. My wife is currently helping a student (his dad went to the same dental school with me) to study for the DAT (just on the math section). Despite having a nagging sore thumb (from extracting teeth), my wife still thinks dentistry is a good stable career. For slow new grad dentist with zero experience to make $120k/yr first year out, that’s pretty good to me. But if you are still making the same $120k/yr after having practiced dentistry for 2-3 years, then there is something wrong with either your work ethic or your clinical skill.

People are seeking higher education, especially dentistry and medicine because there are not a lot of good paying jobs out there. It’s not easy to make a good living nowadays. More than 70% of the people in this country are living paycheck to paycheck. More than 80% make less than $100k/yr. If you make $100k/yr, you are in the top 18%. If you make $200/yr, you’re in the top 5.7%. If you make $300k/yr, you are in the top 2.3%.

 

[emilia112]

Many dentists tell the students not to pursue dentistry because of the oversaturation, hand and back pain, insurance pay cuts, ungrateful patients etc. Many physicians advise students to stay away from medicine as well because of the mid-level providers, AI, long work hours, and insurance pay cuts etc. The reality is no one really likes their job. Work is not supposed to be fun. Every job has its pros and cons. People work because they have bills to pay and have family to support. The goal should be to work as hard as you can (when you’re young and healthy) and save as much as you can so you won’t have to work and deal with the job that you hate when you are older.

I remember when my younger brother applied for med schools 20 years ago, my cousin, who’s a MD anesthesiologist, told him not to do it and that he should go to dental school and become an orthodontist like me. And now, my younger brother is a practicing GI doctor and is doing very well (better than me, financially). But like my cousin, my brother tells many college students (including my son) to stay away from medicine. But my son doesn’t listen to him….he is working hard on his secondary applications for med schools right now.

My niece (the daughter of the anesthesiologist whom I mentioned above) is studying for the DAT right now. My wife is currently helping a student (his dad went to the same dental school with me) to study for the DAT (just on the math section). Despite having a nagging sore thumb (from extracting teeth), my wife still thinks dentistry is a good stable career. For slow new grad dentist with zero experience to make $120k/yr first year out, that’s pretty good to me. But if you are still making the same $120k/yr after having practiced dentistry for 2-3 years, then there is something wrong with either your work ethic or your clinical skill.

People are seeking higher education, especially dentistry and medicine because there are not a lot of good paying jobs out there. It’s not easy to make a good living nowadays. More than 70% of the people in this country are living paycheck to paycheck. More than 80% make less than $100k/yr. If you make $100k/yr, you are in the top 18%. If you make $200/yr, you’re in the top 5.7%. If you make $300k/yr, you are in the top 2.3%.

how much do you think dentists will make if they graduate in next 4 years, like after some years is there a cap?

 

[charlestweed]

how much do you think dentists will make if they graduate in next 4 years, like after some years is there a cap?

It depends on how hard you are willing to work and how fast you are. Unlike medicine, dentists have to sit down to perform the procedure in order to get paid. So the more skill that you have, the more highly paid procedures (implants, extractions, endos etc) you can perform, the higher volume of patients you can treat in a day, the more money you will make. One dentist can do a molar root canal in 1 hr and makes $1000-1500. For another dentist, it may take him 3 hours (2-appointment day) to do the same root canal....or sometimes, it's too difficult for him to perfom and he has to refer the case to an endodontist.

Your salary will be limited by your ability to produce. You only have 2 hands….there’s a limited number of patients that you can treat in a day….limited number of hours that you can work in a day….and limited number of days (only 7 days ) that you can work in a week. If you are already at your maximum working capacity, the only way to earn more is to hire an associate to work for you.

Your salary is also limited by the number of patients that you have. If you don’t have enough patients at one office location, you will have to travel to work at another office (or 2-3 more offices) to get more patients.

 

[emilia112]

It depends on how hard you are willing to work and how fast you are. Unlike medicine, dentists have to sit down to perform the procedure in order to get paid. So the more skill that you have, the more highly paid procedures (implants, extractions, endos etc) you can perform, the higher volume of patients you can treat in a day, the more money you will make. One dentist can do a molar root canal in 1 hr and makes $1000-1500. For another dentist, it may take him 3 hours (2-appointment day) to do the same root canal....or sometimes, it's too difficult for him to perfom and he has to refer the case to an endodontist.

Your salary will be limited by your ability to produce. You only have 2 hands….there’s a limited number of patients that you can treat in a day….limited number of hours that you can work in a day….and limited number of days (only 7 days ) that you can work in a week. If you are already at your maximum working capacity, the only way to earn more is to hire an associate to work for you.

Your salary is also limited by the number of patients that you have. If you don’t have enough patients at one office location, you will have to travel to work at another office (or 2-3 more offices) to get more patients.

ok thanks. in general for the future, is medicine or dental a “better” career in your opinion. ik both have pros and cons but i enjoy both.

 

[JacquesVallee]

Many dentists tell the students not to pursue dentistry because of the oversaturation, hand and back pain, insurance pay cuts, ungrateful patients etc. Many physicians advise students to stay away from medicine as well because of the mid-level providers, AI, long work hours, and insurance pay cuts etc. The reality is no one really likes their job. Work is not supposed to be fun. Every job has its pros and cons. People work because they have bills to pay and have family to support. The goal should be to work as hard as you can (when you’re young and healthy) and save as much as you can so you won’t have to work and deal with the job that you hate when you are older.

I remember when my younger brother applied for med schools 20 years ago, my cousin, who’s a MD anesthesiologist, told him not to do it and that he should go to dental school and become an orthodontist like me. And now, my younger brother is a practicing GI doctor and is doing very well (better than me, financially). But like my cousin, my brother tells many college students (including my son) to stay away from medicine. But my son doesn’t listen to him….he is working hard on his secondary applications for med schools right now.

My niece (the daughter of the anesthesiologist whom I mentioned above) is studying for the DAT right now. My wife is currently helping a student (his dad went to the same dental school with me) to study for the DAT (just on the math section). Despite having a nagging sore thumb (from extracting teeth), my wife still thinks dentistry is a good stable career. For slow new grad dentist with zero experience to make $120k/yr first year out, that’s pretty good to me. But if you are still making the same $120k/yr after having practiced dentistry for 2-3 years, then there is something wrong with either your work ethic or your clinical skill.

People are seeking higher education, especially dentistry and medicine because there are not a lot of good paying jobs out there. It’s not easy to make a good living nowadays. More than 70% of the people in this country are living paycheck to paycheck. More than 80% make less than $100k/yr. If you make $100k/yr, you are in the top 18%. If you make $200/yr, you’re in the top 5.7%. If you make $300k/yr, you are in the top 2.3%.

A lot of good info here, Charles. However, we have to keep in mind that while 120k is a decent starting salary compared to most people in their mid/late 20s, in dentistry at state schools it costs 400k+ these days. Atrocious ROI. I left with 200k and barely think that was financially worth it. With IBR gone, you'd be insane to do dentistry at current debt levels with private loans.

OP, every job has its pros and cons. You have to put in the work to weigh those out. We can't do that for you. We're dentists so we can't speak of what nursing or medicine is like. With that said, you should pick a career at minimum with a good ROI. Dentistry does not have that. The costs are too much.

 

[2TH MVR]

ok thanks. in general for the future, is medicine or dental a “better” career in your opinion. ik both have pros and cons but i enjoy both.

One more thing no one has mentioned. Dentistry is turning into a retail occupation whereas medicine is still a profession. Dentists/Dental Corps are advertising their services which comes across as a "commodity" to the typical patient. i.e "What does a filling/cap cost? What's a set of braces cost? Medicine typically does not advertise. Of course. Some do (plastic surgery, etc.).

So. You also need to factor that into your decision process if you believe this is important.

I personally feel that dentistry has lost alot of it's professionalism.

 

[askadds]

just google avg income of dentists over the last 20 yrs. you will be shocked. find me another career which incomes are not inflation adjusted (besides medicine). its shockingly bad how dentistry is going downhill.

charles guy will keep saying work harder blah blah

older folks have inflated assets which young guys dont have and there is no way of catching up.

older folks keep taking insurance and making it harder for the younger docs...who know someone with 25 yrs of exp considers their work on the same level as a shaking hand dds fresh out of school but they dont mind! SMH, pay me the same as a new grad and I will continue to come on here and tell the young folks life is great. LOL.

 

[charlestweed]

One more thing no one has mentioned. Dentistry is turning into a retail occupation whereas medicine is still a profession. Dentists/Dental Corps are advertising their services which comes across as a "commodity" to the typical patient. i.e "What does a filling/cap cost? What's a set of braces cost? Medicine typically does not advertise. Of course. Some do (plastic surgery, etc.).

So. You also need to factor that into your decision process if you believe this is important.

I personally feel that dentistry has lost alot of it's professionalism.

It has always been like this as long as I know. When my younger brother needed braces, my dad had to shop around for an orthodontist that charged the low fee. With his income, he could only afford to pay for one of us. I didn’t get braces until my 2nd year of dental school…with the student loan money of course.

My cousin is a rheumatologist but he sets up his practice as a general medical practice. He has appeared on many of the local TV stations (that speak our native language) to talk about many of medical topics…..to educate the general public about health. His goal was to make himself more known to the public. He told me that he wished to be a dentist like me because as a dentist, I can advertise my practice. Many patients pay cash for their dental treatment and you don’t have to rely on the insurance companies like in medicine. I guess like us, dentists, my cousin also suffers from the “grass is greener” syndrome.

At least in dentistry, if patients can’t afford your high fee, you don’t have to treat them. You don’t have to treat medicaid patients. But in medicine, you have to treat all patients (medicaid, HMO, PPO etc)…. even if they are illegal immigrants and don’t have insurance, you still have to treat them. You can send the bills to these un-insured patients afterward but the chance of them paying the bills is zero.

 

[charlestweed]

just google avg income of dentists over the last 20 yrs. you will be shocked. find me another career which incomes are not inflation adjusted (besides medicine). its shockingly bad how dentistry is going downhill.

charles guy will keep saying work harder blah blah

older folks have inflated assets which young guys dont have and there is no way of catching up.

older folks keep taking insurance and making it harder for the younger docs...who know someone with 25 yrs of exp considers their work on the same level as a shaking hand dds fresh out of school but they dont mind! SMH, pay me the same as a new grad and I will continue to come on here and tell the young folks life is great. LOL.

With much higher cost of living and high home prices that are 2-3 times more than we, old people, had to pay, young people have to work harder, regardless of what career they choose. They don’t have any other choices. A starter home here in CA is $1M. Only people who make at least $300k (and have zero student loan debt) can afford to buy a house here. And what jobs out there that pay a new grad $300k? Almost none. Maybe….a first year medical doctor but he/she had to do 3 years of low pay residency before that.

All jobs (except for government jobs) have salary cap. It’s called layoff…..being replaced by younger grads….replaced by AI etc. Why keep paying an old 50+ yo employee when a young 20-25 yo new grad (or a computer/machine) can do a much better job for lower salary? It’s America….it’s capitalism. Dentistry also has a cap…but it has much higher salary cap than most other jobs out there, especially if you are a practice owner. Gotta keep the overhead low…..get rid of the overpaid hygienists and you will thank yourself later. It doesn’t make any business sense to pay someone $100 an hour to clean teeth when the insurance only pay $70 for a cleaning.

 

[2TH MVR]

It has always been like this as long as I know. When my younger brother needed braces, my dad had to shop around for an orthodontist that charged the low fee.

I don't fault you because you practiced during this decline in dentistry. I also admire you since you did what you had to do to succeed without complaining.

I started practicing in 1993. Dentists back then did not advertise. There were very few dental Corps. Dentists and specialists worked together for the benefit of the patient. An orthodontist charged a proper fee for records and a separate appointment to review the records and design a specific orthodontic treatment plan for that patient. A proper fee. A fee justified by 11 years in college to become an orthodontist. This has now been replaced with the FREE one appt consultation and bracket placement. If you visit a medical doctor. It is expected that you will have to pay SOMETHING. A copay maybe, but something for their TIME.

 

[charlestweed]

I don't fault you because you practiced during this decline in dentistry. I also admire you since you did what you had to do to succeed without complaining.

I started practicing in 1993. Dentists back then did not advertise. There were very few dental Corps. Dentists and specialists worked together for the benefit of the patient. An orthodontist charged a proper fee for records and a separate appointment to review the records and design a specific orthodontic treatment plan for that patient. A proper fee. A fee justified by 11 years in college to become an orthodontist. This has now been replaced with the FREE one appt consultation and bracket placement. If you visit a medical doctor. It is expected that you will have to pay SOMETHING. A copay maybe, but something for their TIME.

I don't complain because dentistry has been a wonderful profession for me. I was able to climb up the social ladder because of it.

You are not that far ahead of me. We are both very old, LOL. In 1994, I was a first year dental student.

I remember when I first came to America in 1986, I got my very first dental visit at this one dental office. As we left the office, they gifted my dad and me a dial phone with their business name and phone number on it. It’s one of their ways to advertise their office. When I was in HS, I already saw a lot dental ads from Western Dental (one of the biggest corp chain in CA) on TV. I also remember that Howard Faran, the founder of Dentaltown, said on one of his videos that when he first opened his own office, he had to go around knocking on people’s doors to introduce himself. And he graduated way before both of us.

How do the patients know who you are, if you don’t advertise? Gotta at least let them know your office hours, the insurance plans that you accept….do you accept Medicaid or not? ….do you accept emergency cases (endo, extractions) after the office (or weekend) hours or not? Etc.

You no longer need to advertise once you have a track record of doing good work on your patients and become more known to the community. I stopped advertising a long time ago.

 

[DoctorMD1]

It has always been like this as long as I know. When my younger brother needed braces, my dad had to shop around for an orthodontist that charged the low fee. With his income, he could only afford to pay for one of us. I didn’t get braces until my 2nd year of dental school…with the student loan money of course.

My cousin is a rheumatologist but he sets up his practice as a general medical practice. He has appeared on many of the local TV stations (that speak our native language) to talk about many of medical topics…..to educate the general public about health. His goal was to make himself more known to the public. He told me that he wished to be a dentist like me because as a dentist, I can advertise my practice. Many patients pay cash for their dental treatment and you don’t have to rely on the insurance companies like in medicine. I guess like us, dentists, my cousin also suffers from the “grass is greener” syndrome.

At least in dentistry, if patients can’t afford your high fee, you don’t have to treat them. You don’t have to treat medicaid patients. But in medicine, you have to treat all patients (medicaid, HMO, PPO etc)…. even if they are illegal immigrants and don’t have insurance, you still have to treat them. You can send the bills to these un-insured patients afterward but the chance of them paying the bills is zero.

so would you recommend medicine or dentistry (general or specialty) for your kids? Thanks in advance.
btw physicians don't have to take medicaid at least for outpatient

 

[JacquesVallee]

When I was in HS, I already saw a lot dental ads from Western Dental (one of the biggest corp chain in CA) on TV. I also remember that Howard Faran, the founder of Dentaltown, said on one of his videos that when he first opened his own office, he had to go around knocking on people’s doors to introduce himself. And he graduated way before both of us.

Charles, it was significantly easier, if not expected, in the 90's to be able to start a dental practice from scratch, advertise, and be successful. It is not the same today. In fact, most will never own. Of all of my classmates, you can count the owners on one hand. DSO's with associateships are the future of dentistry. I admit, if you start a rural practice far away from DSOs and the insane city saturation, you can practice dentistry much more traditionally. However, how many graduates will actually live longterm in a rural area? Very few. And as 2THMVR alluded to, dentistry has been much more commoditized as dentists compete for patients in saturated cities.

 

[mjzccle19701]

Of all of my classmates, you can count the owners on one hand.

How many are associates at a private practice and planning on buying the practice? How many of your classmates have tried ownership and failed? Would you say the lack of ownership is due to student loan burdens or not wanting to deal with the stress? Or is it not being able to find the right practice/unwillingness to move to the right location? You make it seem like all of your classmates are on the struggle bus.

 

[JacquesVallee]

How many are associates at a private practice and planning on buying the practice?

I can think of at least one. I'm sure there are more who hope to buy a practice at some point. However, I remember a Howard Farran quote that was something along the lines of "If you don't become an owner after 5 years of practicing, you never will." I think people tell themselves they'll buy but they won't. Every dental student tells themselves they'll own as they likely shadowed at dental offices that were opened by dentists from Charles and 2THMVR's generation. However, the data backs up that ownership is on a decline. Pre dents would be better off shadowing at DSOs.

How many of your classmates have tried ownership and failed?

None of my classmates that I know of. It's probably still too early to tell but I am optimistic for my classmates who bought or started their own practice. They are in rural areas so I do believe they will not just be successful but far better off than the rest of my classmates who are associates in cities. I do know of one person who tried opening a practice in a saturated midwestern city and failed. I don't know the exact details of that situation though. I was told that by someone who offered me a job. But again, the point is that so many fewer graduates will end up owning today.

Would you say the lack of ownership is due to student loan burdens or not wanting to deal with the stress? Or is it not being able to find the right practice/unwillingness to move to the right location?

Student loan debt is a killer. It is terrifying adding another 500k to your 400k of loans. Probably also a mixture that the costs up front such as real estate are insane. People don't want to spend years losing money upfront either.

You make it seem like all of your classmates are on the struggle bus.

Where have I said that? You've responded to me before and keep trying to say I'm saying things that I'm not. Such as here:

I understand there are outliers and averages. So yes, you are saying in general it's only worth it financially if you do HPSP or NHSC. I wasn't only asking about that though. Since you didn't answer my other question, I am gonna assume you don't think there are any redeeming qualities in dentistry. Or at least any that are worth being in 200k debt.

Some of my classmates are doing great. Some have crazy hight loans and make sub 200k. It's a mixed bag. I'm guessing most are doing IBR but I'm honestly not sure. However, all I've said is very few of my classmates are owners.

 

[mjzccle19701]

Where have I said that?

You often talk about low salaries and few people owning a practice. I associate those things with financial struggles. I wasn’t sure if they weren’t owners due to the financials or other reasons which is why I asked the questions.

People in my class don’t even want to work 4 days a week so it doesn’t surprise me that ownership is on the decline. It also doesn’t help when everyone tells you that you will never own. But I think people who want to own and aren’t scared of the risks will be able to do it.

 

[Big Time Hoosier]

But I think people who want to own and aren’t scared of the risks will be able to do it.

Big Hoss

 

[Big Time Hoosier]

The trend is not your friend…

Big Hoss

 

[charlestweed]

so would you recommend medicine or dentistry (general or specialty) for your kids? Thanks in advance.
btw physicians don't have to take medicaid at least for outpatient

Both are good fields. Both are in high demand and offer you job stability. Unlike engineering and other careers, dentists and physicians will never be employed. People get sick as they age and they need to see their doctors. Most people don’t brush and floss the way they are supposed to….and like the rest of their body parts, teeth will get worse as they age and they will need to see their dentists to fix their teeth.

My son is working on his secondary applications for medical schools right now.

 

[charlestweed]

Charles, it was significantly easier, if not expected, in the 90's to be able to start a dental practice from scratch, advertise, and be successful. It is not the same today. In fact, most will never own. Of all of my classmates, you can count the owners on one hand. DSO's with associateships are the future of dentistry. I admit, if you start a rural practice far away from DSOs and the insane city saturation, you can practice dentistry much more traditionally. However, how many graduates will actually live longterm in a rural area? Very few. And as 2THMVR alluded to, dentistry has been much more commoditized as dentists compete for patients in saturated cities.

When I started my first office, I hired a company (forgot the name of the company) to do direct mail campaign for me. They charged me around $12k to send out 15000 post cards to families who have kids between ages 7-18….and they sent these post cards to the same addresses 3 times. Guess how many patients called my office? Only 5. One angry person called my office to complain and asked us to stop sending “junk flyers” to her house. Of those 5 people who called, 3 started the treatments. The sale rep, who worked for this direct mail company, told me that her dad’s an orthodontist and despite having an established practice, he still continued use her company to advertise to get more patients.

I remember one time my wife had to come to the patients’ house (a brother and a sister) to drive them to my office to start ortho tx because their parents were both at work. That’s how desperate we were.

Yes, we, older dentists, had it much easier…less competition…..less student loans…. But we still had to advertise in order to get the patients. I had to keep the fee low in order to attract patients. After Covid, I raised my fees a little bit...only $200 more per case....and now $400 more per case....still very low fees. Most of the general dentists here in CA accept medicaid…..they don’t hire hygienists (because there aren’t enough patients to keep them busy)….they all do their own cleanings on their patients.

 

[mjzccle19701]

The trend is not your friend…

View attachment 407463

Big Hoss

https://www.ada.org/-/media/project/ada-organization/ada/ada-org/files/resources/research/hpi/practice_ownership_trends_dentistry_new_look_old_data.pdf?rev=13d2caf181004d228be2c4c8f991e49e&hash=2742D18938D178DA6087D91BC383952D

This one is good too. It says late career ownership rates catch up. Also depends on demographics and student loans. It’s still not pretty but I like when the graphs go up instead of down.

 

[Bigjt1420]

The question to become a dentist or a physician has ALWAYS been the same:

IS THE COST OF GOING TO SCHOOL (and missing out on potential earnings during that time) WORTH IT GIVEN HOW MUCH DEBT YOU ARE TAKING ON?

That is the question to ask yourself. A lot of people on here are telling you to go this way or to go that way. Dentistry is still a great professional -- certainly stable as of now and it's nice not having to worry about layoffs. But it's NOT worth it if you have hundreds of thousands in student loan debt. Some people are incredibly fortunate and their parents fund their dental school so they are debt free. In that case, yes, 100% it is worth it. But that might not be your case.

Answer that question and you'll know what path you should take.

 

[Big Time Hoosier]

https://www.ada.org/-/media/project/ada-organization/ada/ada-org/files/resources/research/hpi/practice_ownership_trends_dentistry_new_look_old_data.pdf?rev=13d2caf181004d228be2c4c8f991e49e&hash=2742D18938D178DA6087D91BC383952D

This one is good too. It says late career ownership rates catch up. Also depends on demographics and student loans. It’s still not pretty but I like when the graphs go up instead of down.

I’ve already seen that. Did you see the part where they looked at dentists who graduated between 2006 and 2010 to come up with that conclusion?

Those are dentists who bought their homes when the median home price to median income was half of what it is today. Same with their mortgage interest rate. Those are dentists who paid less than half of what today’s prospective students will pay for an education. Those are dentists who benefited from the insane run up in the stock market. Have insurance reimbursement rates gone up to cover the difference?

Call me skeptical, but I don’t see how the graduates of today are going to catch up on practice ownership, because they literally won’t be able to afford it. Dentistry is becoming the new pharmacy. Go check out those threads on SDN.

Big Hoss

 

[charlestweed]

The question to become a dentist or a physician has ALWAYS been the same:

IS THE COST OF GOING TO SCHOOL (and missing out on potential earnings during that time) WORTH IT GIVEN HOW MUCH DEBT YOU ARE TAKING ON?

That is the question to ask yourself. A lot of people on here are telling you to go this way or to go that way. Dentistry is still a great professional -- certainly stable as of now and it's nice not having to worry about layoffs. But it's NOT worth it if you have hundreds of thousands in student loan debt. Some people are incredibly fortunate and their parents fund their dental school so they are debt free. In that case, yes, 100% it is worth it. But that might not be your case.

Answer that question and you'll know what path you should take.

I wouldn’t recommend dentistry to a student who has to take out $500k loans and thinks that he/she can just work 4 days wk after graduation…..earning $100-120k/yr. I usually tell them straight to their face that they’ll need to work 6 days/wk (for a couple of years) to make at least twice that amount. Forget about the IBR…it’s a trap that keeps them in debt forever. If they think what I suggest is crazy, then they should pursue another health field that charges lower tuitions. And they must pursue another health field because a BS degree in Bio is pretty much a worthless degree. Taking a gap year (or two) is not gonna help…it only delays the retirement/financial goal. Since many of them already spent 3-4 years of their undergrads to study biology, doing more schooling for an entirely different career path like engineering, mba will cost them even more money (student loan money). The later they start working, the longer they will have to work to save for retirement.

This suggestion does not come from me. Both Dave Ramsey and White Coat Investor suggest the new grad doctors to work hard and continue to live like a student (or a resident) for the first few years to pay down the debt. I am just the messenger.

 

[JacquesVallee]

The trend is not your friend…

View attachment 407463

Big Hoss

Wow, the fact that 25.4% of dentists under 30 were practice owners in 2005 is mind blowing to me.

 

[D1Bound]

Wow, the fact that 25.4% of dentists under 30 were practice owners in 2005 is mind blowing to me.

That is pretty crazy. Those days are over. solo doc offices will be a rare boutique thing.

 

[DoctorMD1]

Both are good fields. Both are in high demand and offer you job stability. Unlike engineering and other careers, dentists and physicians will never be employed. People get sick as they age and they need to see their doctors. Most people don’t brush and floss the way they are supposed to….and like the rest of their body parts, teeth will get worse as they age and they will need to see their dentists to fix their teeth.

My son is working on his secondary applications for medical schools right now.

good like to your son! what is better in your opinion general dentistry or being specialist like ortho, endo etc ? what is average tuition for dental residencies?

 

[Mr.Smile12]

good like to your son! what is better in your opinion general dentistry or being specialist like ortho, endo etc ? what is average tuition for dental residencies?

I'm just sharing for a point of reference.

Endodontic Programs & Requirements - American Association of Endodontists

Fastest way to find advanced specialty programs in endodontics. Search by state. Includes all accredited graduate programs in endodontics in U.S. and Canada

www.aae.org

All Programs | School of Dentistry

dentistry.ucsf.edu

Orthodontic Internship - Lake Erie College of Osteopathic Medicine

The Orthodontic Internship provides clinical experience and didactic knowledge in all phases of orthodontics.

lecom.edu

 

[D1Bound]

I'm just sharing for a point of reference.

Endodontic Programs & Requirements - American Association of Endodontists

Fastest way to find advanced specialty programs in endodontics. Search by state. Includes all accredited graduate programs in endodontics in U.S. and Canada

www.aae.org

All Programs | School of Dentistry

dentistry.ucsf.edu

Orthodontic Internship - Lake Erie College of Osteopathic Medicine

The Orthodontic Internship provides clinical experience and didactic knowledge in all phases of orthodontics.

lecom.edu

An orthodontic internship where you pay 35k to do a couple of ortho starts and then you mentor dental students. This stuff is going to go bye bye with the new big beautiful bill.

 

[2TH MVR]

That is pretty crazy. Those days are over. solo doc offices will be a rare boutique thing.

Wow, the fact that 25.4% of dentists under 30 were practice owners in 2005 is mind blowing to me.

Back in those days ..... there were fewer Dental Corps. A young dentist had 3 options: 1. associate with a plan to buy in or 2. buy an existing practice or 3. open a start up practice. There were fewer Corp jobs back then. Back then .... I associated for 6 months. Then I bought into the practice. 18 months later I purchased the entire practice from the senior ortho. Working for a Corp was not an option back then.

But now. Dental Corps are everywhere. And now alot of the retiring dentists are selling their private practices to the highest bidder which is mostly the Dental Corps with the deep pockets. In the past ..... most of those practices would have been available to the new dentists.

 

[JacquesVallee]

Back in those days ..... there were fewer Dental Corps. A young dentist had 3 options: 1. associate with a plan to buy in or 2. buy an existing practice or 3. open a start up practice. There were fewer Corp jobs back then. Back then .... I associated for 6 months. Then I bought into the practice. 18 months later I purchased the entire practice from the senior ortho. Working for a Corp was not an option back then.

But now. Dental Corps are everywhere. And now alot of the retiring dentists are selling their private practices to the highest bidder which is mostly the Dental Corps with the deep pockets. In the past ..... most of those practices would have been available to the new dentists.

What a better time. Today, given the high student debt loads and severe saturation in cities, graduates will take an associateship with a guaranteed income rather than own, which perpetuates DSO proliferation even further. The founder of Heartland opened a dental school already. DSO's will do what they can to expand. With that said, because of the BBB, if we get mass dental school closures and/or significant reductions in student loan debt, this could lead to both more ownership and less saturation. Let's hope that's the case. I hate seeing my profession be taken over by corporations.

 

[D1Bound]

What a better time. Today, given the high student debt loads and severe saturation in cities, graduates will take an associateship with a guaranteed income rather than own, which perpetuates DSO proliferation even further. The founder of Heartland opened a dental school already. DSO's will do what they can to expand. With that said, because of the BBB, if we get mass dental school closures and/or significant reductions in student loan debt, this could lead to both more ownership and less saturation. Let's hope that's the case. I hate seeing my profession be taken over by corporations.

Look out for heartland “HPSP” contracts lol

 

[askadds]

With much higher cost of living and high home prices that are 2-3 times more than we, old people, had to pay, young people have to work harder, regardless of what career they choose. They don’t have any other choices. A starter home here in CA is $1M. Only people who make at least $300k (and have zero student loan debt) can afford to buy a house here. And what jobs out there that pay a new grad $300k? Almost none. Maybe….a first year medical doctor but he/she had to do 3 years of low pay residency before that.

All jobs (except for government jobs) have salary cap. It’s called layoff…..being replaced by younger grads….replaced by AI etc. Why keep paying an old 50+ yo employee when a young 20-25 yo new grad (or a computer/machine) can do a much better job for lower salary? It’s America….it’s capitalism. Dentistry also has a cap…but it has much higher salary cap than most other jobs out there, especially if you are a practice owner. Gotta keep the overhead low…..get rid of the overpaid hygienists and you will thank yourself later. It doesn’t make any business sense to pay someone $100 an hour to clean teeth when the insurance only pay $70 for a cleaning.

" It doesn’t make any business sense to pay someone $100 an hour to clean teeth when the insurance only pay $70 for a cleaning."
--this is where we went off course guys. why are you still accepting 70 for a cleaning 15 yrs+ yrs later. You want to talk about what makes business sense or not, try to value your work and stop insurance participation and maybe the future will be better for these young lads. just saying....stop coasting because your set with your million dollar home and ballooned assets.

 

[charlestweed]

good like to your son! what is better in your opinion general dentistry or being specialist like ortho, endo etc ? what is average tuition for dental residencies?

I hope my son will get in somewhere.

I don’t know. I have a lot of GP friends (including my sister and a GP whom I rent an office space from) who are doing very well. But many of them wish they can be an ortho like me because they think I have an easy job. What they don’t realize is I used to go around begging the GPs to refer patients to my office…..that I used to work until 10 pm when I first started my business. If you are an introvert person and hate going door to door like a sale man, then it’s not a good idea to specialize.

 

[charlestweed]

" It doesn’t make any business sense to pay someone $100 an hour to clean teeth when the insurance only pay $70 for a cleaning."
--this is where we went off course guys. why are you still accepting 70 for a cleaning 15 yrs+ yrs later. You want to talk about what makes business sense or not, try to value your work and stop insurance participation and maybe the future will be better for these young lads. just saying....stop coasting because your set with your million dollar home and ballooned assets.

You can easily do it yourself in less than 10 minutes (that’s how long it takes me to clean my kids’ teeth). So in 1 hour, you can do 5-6 cleanings .…producing $400 or netting $200 (assuming that you can keep the overhead at 50%). Earning $200 per hour is way better than having to pay $100/hour to hire a hygienist....and then have to worry about empty hygiene schedule, worker comp, vacation pay, and other labor laws that you have to comply. Here in CA, medicaid pays $90 for a cleaning. If you have time to write posts on this SDN, you should have time to clean teeth. New grads need to realize that doing cleaning is not beneath them. There are plenty of dentists who do their own cleanings.

 

[askadds]

You can easily do it yourself in less than 10 minutes (that’s how long it takes me to clean my kids’ teeth). So in 1 hour, you can do 5-6 cleanings .…producing $400 or netting $200 (assuming that you can keep the overhead at 50%). Earning $200 per hour is way better than having to pay $100/hour to hire a hygienist....and then have to worry about empty hygiene schedule, worker comp, vacation pay, and other labor laws that you have to comply. Here in CA, medicaid pays $90 for a cleaning. If you have time to write posts on this SDN, you should have time to clean teeth. New grads need to realize that doing cleaning is not beneath them. There are plenty of dentists who do their own cleanings.

Love how you deflected why you are getting paid fees from 15+ yrs ago. This is the problem with dentistry, folks like you who say put your head downs and do 4 cleanings an hour. lol jokes.

I value my work, my hyg avg $2500 a day on 7 pts. That's how it should be. Stop ruining for others by doing 4 cleanings an hour! What a shame, dentists screwing every new generation over and over again.

Fine! Dentistry is so awesome! No raises for anyone!!

 

[charlestweed]

Love how you deflected why you are getting paid fees from 15+ yrs ago. This is the problem with dentistry, folks like you who say put your head downs and do 4 cleanings an hour. lol jokes.

I value my work, my hyg avg $2500 a day on 7 pts. That's how it should be. Stop ruining for others by doing 4 cleanings an hour! What a shame, dentists screwing every new generation over and over again.

Fine! Dentistry is so awesome! No raises for anyone!!

I am not deflecting anything. I am just telling the predents how dentists like my friends and my sister in saturated markets are doing in order to survive. These dentists are older (they are my age) who graduated with very little amount of debt. And yet, they have worked very hard.... they never have hygienist in their office. As a specialist, I also have to reduce fees in order keep my practice busy. There are more dental offices here in CA than there are gas stations. The predents need to know about the current state of dentistry so they can make a wise decision about whether or not they should take out loans and go into this profession. I don’t want to give them false hope.

It’s good that you can charge your patients $300-400 for a cleaning...then paying a hygientist $100 an hour shouldn't be an issue. I always admire the successful doctors like you, who get to charge high fees and still able maintain a busy schedule. Not everybody has the business skill to do that. So dentistry should be a good profession for you. I don’t why you come on here and complain about the field all the time. You should be a consultant and teach dentists, who have poor business skill like me to run a successful practice like you.

 

[JacquesVallee]

These dentists are older (they are my age) who graduated with very little amount of debt.

This is important. The experience of your dental friends is substantially different than what current young dentists face. I'm pretty sure UCLA dental is 400k+ in state now.

 

[charlestweed]

This is important. The experience of your dental friends is substantially different than what current young dentists face. I'm pretty sure UCLA dental is 400k+ in state now.

My point was we, older dentists, didn't have that much student loans. And yet, many of us had worked 6 days/wk after graduation. I didn't stop working 6 days/wk until turned 49...I graduated at 29...so that's 20 yrs of hard work. What make the new grads who have $400-500k debt think that they can just work 4 days/wk...and expect to be OK? That's why I keep saying go to dentistry, only if you are ok with working hard (like 6 days/wk) and live like a student for many years after graduation. If you can't do that, then pick another field with less debt.

 

[askadds]

I am not deflecting anything. I am just telling the predents how dentists like my friends and my sister in saturated markets are doing in order to survive. These dentists are older (they are my age) who graduated with very little amount of debt. And yet, they have worked very hard.... they never have hygienist in their office. As a specialist, I also have to reduce fees in order keep my practice busy. There are more dental offices here in CA than there are gas stations. The predents need to know about the current state of dentistry so they can make a wise decision about whether or not they should take out loans and go into this profession. I don’t want to give them false hope.

It’s good that you can charge your patients $300-400 for a cleaning...then paying a hygientist $100 an hour shouldn't be an issue. I always admire the successful doctors like you, who get to charge high fees and still able maintain a busy schedule. Not everybody has the business skill to do that. So dentistry should be a good profession for you. I don’t why you come on here and complain about the field all the time. You should be a consultant and teach dentists, who have poor business skill like me to run a successful practice like you.

Because **** needs to change, what if in 15 yrs cleaning fee has not gone up? Don't tell me it's not possible! Clearly that's what you thought 15 yrs ago if faced with the same question. Jeez, no business sense is needed, common sense tells you otherwise. I come on here to tell these folks to buck the trend, plant the seed in their heads to not accept it! To stand up to this bull**** work harder mantra has dentistry is already hard enough. Wake up man, this is serious stuff. If said to you 15 yrs ago that you will get the same fee in 2025, you would smile and work harder?

Presents, understand you going into this field and you have to fight for higher fees. Don't look at old timers, they are confused!