Dental schools - why so hard?

[lphiewok]

hey guys, i have been hearing many stories about how difficult dental schools are.

now my question is, is it hard to just pass the class or is it hard if you are trying to do more with your grades.

me, i just want to graduate from dental school and do general dentistry (hopefully my grades will not matter for this).

is it hard to just pass the class and be a dentist?

(i have heard it's about 30+ hours and other ridiculous amount of work, but i guess im wondering do people study just to pass or study to excel in the class)

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[armorshell]

WEll considering you'll be in class from 8-5, 5 days a week, you're easily going to crest 30+ hours just in class time. Then add in some lab work, and studying, and you're probably looking at 10-30 hours of outside of class work on top of that, depending on how hard you want to work.

 

[ddsrealist]

Also, think about how hard it is to even get into d-school. When you enter d-school, you'll be with the cream of the crop, the super-nerds.

 

[aggie-master]

I don't think there is much of a difference between the effort to get a C or an A in a class. You are going to have to work hard to pass and if you work a little harder than that you'll have good grades to show for it.

 

[HupHolland]

Every student will have to put forth a different amount of effort to get a particular grade.

With that said, you will have to put a lot of work into some classes just to pass and little work into others to achieve the same grade. Getting A's is very challenging (much more so than undergrad), because everyone in class is smart and a vast majority strive for A's-- I do not.

I've worked pretty hard this past year and have mostly B's and a couple A's and C's. I'm about average intelligence for a dental student.

-Hup!

 

[dreaming2k5]

It's not THAT hard. We're at the finals week, and I was able to finish MGS4 BBE run, GTA4, got to lvl 60 in Rappelz, and watched lots of movies. Tomo... er, today, we have Pre-Clin Perio Final Written exam, and here's what I'm thinking... "I already have 60% of grade, and tomorrow's test is worth 35%, all I need is 70% to pass the class, so I just need to answer 1/3 of the questions right... piece of cake."

Hahahhahaa

 

[HupHolland]

It's not THAT hard. We're at the finals week, and I was able to finish MGS4 BBE run, GTA4, got to lvl 60 in Rappelz, and watched lots of movies. Tomo... er, today, we have Pre-Clin Perio Final Written exam, and here's what I'm thinking... "I already have 60% of grade, and tomorrow's test is worth 35%, all I need is 70% to pass the class, so I just need to answer 1/3 of the questions right... piece of cake."

Hahahhahaa

Must be nice. To pass perio courses at Maryland you must pass every exam and practical. Otherwise it's remediation or repeating the entire year. I personally know a guy that got a passing grade in perio but failed the final and was asked to repeat the entire year 👎

-Hup!

 

[Hysteria24]

Also, think about how hard it is to even get into d-school. When you enter d-school, you'll be with the cream of the crop, the super-nerds.

If everyone was very smart, it would seem as though everyone should be able to continue getting A's. Are most grades done on a curve thereby only granting A's to the top ~15% in each class?

 

[gryffindor]

If everyone was very smart, it would seem as though everyone should be able to continue getting A's. Are most grades done on a curve thereby only granting A's to the top ~15% in each class?

A's are not awarded based on your understanding of the material, they are awarded based on your stamina to memorize the captions, parenthetical information, and other minutia in addition to all the other necessary information you have to learn for the exam. Plenty of people get weeded out from earning A's based on how much minutia the instructor includes on the exam. At least that how it worked at my school, none of the classes were graded on a curve, it wasn't necessary. There were classes where 50% of the class earned an A (rare) and some where only 3/90 got an A.

 

[ddsrealist]

If everyone was very smart, it would seem as though everyone should be able to continue getting A's. Are most grades done on a curve thereby only granting A's to the top ~15% in each class?

It's not "if". Everyone IS smart. However, with 50 credits/semester, its brains and hard work that'll get you good grades.

 

[HupHolland]

It's not "if". Everyone IS smart. However, with 50 credits/semester, its brains and hard work that'll get you good grades.

Plus not everyone strives for A's.

-Hup!

 

[Hysteria24]

It's not "if". Everyone IS smart. However, with 50 credits/semester, its brains and hard work that'll get you good grades.

Yes... I know everyone IS smart. This was already touched on above when stating that all d-students are "the cream of the crop." But if classes are not curved, then the academic abilities of one's classmates would be insignificant.

So it looks as though it basically boils down to the volume of information thrown at d-students on a daily basis which makes continuing to get A's difficult. Oh, and all the extra minutia put on the tests that was also mentioned earlier.

It just seems as if a lecturer had decent powerpoints, and all test questions came from the lecture, it should be doable.

 

[HupHolland]

Yes... I know everyone IS smart. This was already touched on above when stating that all d-students are "the cream of the crop." But if classes are not curved, then the academic abilities of one's classmates would be insignificant.

So it looks as though it basically boils down to the volume of information thrown at d-students on a daily basis which makes continuing to get A's difficult. Oh, and all the extra minutia put on the tests that was also mentioned earlier.

It just seems as if a lecturer had decent powerpoints, and all test questions came from the lecture, it should be doable.

But not all lecturers have good powerpoints and some professors will even pull random crap out of the text.

In the end it boils down to the fact that you are taking around 30 credits- the material is voluminous and you will be spending a good amount of time in lab honing your manuel dexterity. There are only so many hours in a day. Unless you want to have no life, you will be picking and choosing what you think is important to study and what's not. You will always feel behind.

-Hup!

 

[gryffindor]

You will be surprised how much information can be stuffed onto 1 powerpoint slide, especially if there is a figure on it.

 

[dreaming2k5]

The only pre-clin class that I went into lab to practice for was Fixed prep and temp. I never practiced for endo, remo, operative, etc - because if you're good at prepping for a crown, everything else is easy.

As for studyin... 2 days is usually enough to cram for each test. rest of the time is for gaming and eating!

 

[Hysteria24]

The only pre-clin class that I went into lab to practice for was Fixed prep and temp. I never practiced for endo, remo, operative, etc - because if you're good at prepping for a crown, everything else is easy.

As for studyin... 2 days is usually enough to cram for each test. rest of the time is for gaming and eating!

Doesn't sound like d-school is giving you much trouble. Are you pulling A's or just passing?

 

[DanHerkimer]

In my dental school days, we worked hard and I know that current students still do. However, the GPA of entering classes has dropped steadily since the 1980's. Dental schools from prestigious universities have closed -- nearly all of the new dental schools are associated with Schools of Osteopathic Medicine (sort of like a Grade B Medical School).

The academics of dentistry are not difficult for anyone who did well in college prep work. The struggle is to master the clinical techniques within a four year period (and God help the poor students at Pacific!). Remember, in Dentistry it is all about the "hands" and not the "brains"!

 

[Hysteria24]

However, the GPA of entering classes has dropped steadily since the 1980's.

I don't have my statistics handy but thought for sure that stats have been trending up for some time.

 

[Squished Rat]

I don't have my statistics handy but thought for sure that stats have been trending up for some time.

I am also going to disagree with him. During the 4 years I was in dental school, I know the GPA and average DAT went up pretty consistently.

 

[dreaming2k5]

Doesn't sound like d-school is giving you much trouble. Are you pulling A's or just passing?

Mmm, out of the 2 years, I'm going to have my very first c+! I'm very proud of it =) Otherwise, it's 50/50 As and Bs

 

[Cold Front]

Mmm, out of the 2 years, I'm going to have my very first c+! I'm very proud of it =) Otherwise, it's 50/50 As and Bs

That's because not many people get C's at "Be You!".

Most of the courses have their "B" cut-offs around 65%, while others everyone walks away with A or B, the rest are scaled normal. When there is a potential to get a "C", it's due to some professors wanting to screw with students by giving stupid exams. Overall, 90% of the class is "C" free, especially in the 2nd year - which is about old exams.

I would say school is hard (going through red-tapes and stuff), but the system guarentees you a good pass.

 

[Yellow Snow]

I don't have my statistics handy but thought for sure that stats have been trending up for some time.

Stats are way up. When I was applying the AADSAS book averages (a couple years old) were all 3.2s and 18s on the DAT. NYU is now 3.5 and 19-20 AA and due to cost we have to be one of the lower schools.

 

[aphistis]

In my dental school days, we worked hard and I know that current students still do. However, the GPA of entering classes has dropped steadily since the 1980's. Dental schools from prestigious universities have closed -- nearly all of the new dental schools are associated with Schools of Osteopathic Medicine (sort of like a Grade B Medical School).

The academics of dentistry are not difficult for anyone who did well in college prep work. The struggle is to master the clinical techniques within a four year period (and God help the poor students at Pacific!). Remember, in Dentistry it is all about the "hands" and not the "brains"!

This post makes several disputable claims. I would caution against accepting it at face value.

 

[Dukie]

This post makes several disputable claims. I would caution against accepting it at face value.

I have to agree. I'm not really sure who this DanHerkimer guy is, but every one of his statements has been either exaggerated or simply absurd. The schools that closed that were associated with good medical schools (ie- Wash U, Georgetown, etc) did so because of cost. It is very expensive to educate a dentist. This has nothing to do with the quality of applicants.

Getting into dental school has gotten progressively harder and GPAs have gone significantly up since the 1980's. I'm not really sure where you get your information, but you are simply wrong. Be careful listening to his advice.

 

[armorshell]

I have to agree. I'm not really sure who this DanHerkimer guy is, but every one of his statements has been either exaggerated or simply absurd. The schools that closed that were associated with good medical schools (ie- Wash U, Georgetown, etc) did so because of cost. It is very expensive to educate a dentist. This has nothing to do with the quality of applicants.

Not to mention the fact that he has never responded to a single criticism of one of his own "arguments."

Classic troll.

 

[ddsrealist]

dental school = class B medical school? Wtf.

 

[JamieMac]

Sounds like the guy practiced in the 60's anyway...completely out of touch regarding the requirements. I met a dentist last year that told me if he were to apply today with the stats he had, he wouldn't have a prayer of getting in.

 

[Hysteria24]

dental school = class B medical school? Wtf.

I believe he was referring to Osteopathic schools, calling them class B med schools. That statement would probably cause a riot over on the osteopathic forum.

I met a dentist last year that told me if he were to apply today with the stats he had, he wouldn't have a prayer of getting in.

That's the trend for most upper education programs in general. It is frightening when a school can boast that their incoming freshman undergrad class has a 4.0+ average. 😱

 

[Hoky Poky]

I agree with what many people have said - how difficult dental school will be for you depends largely on the amount of effort and mentality that you use to approach studying. Passing, learning as much as you can, striving to be top of the class are all very different approaches and come with varying amounts of effort and 'hardness'. 😛

I just find it funny that over on the med forums, statements like 'dental school is like the high school version of med school' pop up.

 

[JamieMac]

I just find it funny that over on the med forums, statements like 'dental school is like the high school version of med school' pop up.

Maybe they meant that dentistry is the high school version of medicine...you know...we work 35 hours and have it made (i.e. time for family, friends, extracurriculars, and no worries about the bills getting paid). After all, that does sound like most people's high school experience.

Seriously though, based on what a few med school buddies have told me, I'd much rather have their schedule than the schedule of a dental student. The free time they had was much more than I would have thought.

 

[TempleDMDKrazd]

Maybe they meant that dentistry is the high school version of medicine...you know...we work 35 hours and have it made (i.e. time for family, friends, extracurriculars, and no worries about the bills getting paid). After all, that does sound like most people's high school experience.

Seriously though, based on what a few med school buddies have told me, I'd much rather have their schedule than the schedule of a dental student. The free time they had was much more than I would have thought.

and maybe that's why later in life we get more free time and they don't. put in the extra effort now and enjoy the fruits of your labor later 👍

 

[SugarNaCl]

I think the reasons differ for difficulty depending on the school. For instance, last semester at VCU, we were LOADED with coursework. The courses were probably about similar difficulty to undergrad upper levels only instead of 2-3 medical science courses, we were taking 5-6 and then the dental classes, labs and clinics over that.

It was so hard to keep up unless you spent EVERY night reviewing for about 3 hours. It was definitely the toughest semester of my life. They were redoing the curriculum so we are the guinea pig class. They already changed this coming years schedule because of the stress it caused so many students (moved micro to first semester, moved perio to 2nd year).

There is a certain degree of tradeoff too. I thought I could do best in micro, pathology and physio so I worked extra hard in those to get an A, while letting Histology slip to B. It was hard deciding where to focus when you knew you didn't have time to do it all.

For me the difficulty is a time issue, not a material issue.

 

[JamieMac]

For me the difficulty is a time issue, not a material issue.

This seems to be a recurring theme when discussing d-school.

 

[Dr2BSoon]

You know what's hard? SUMMER SEMESTER! It actually isn't a difficult semester, but being stuck inside is awful--they won't even open the blinds in the classrooms to let sunlight in! The fact that it is beautiful, sunny, and warm in Michigan right now, and we are all stuck inside studying while the DS3s and DS4s have their whole weekend off to play since they are in clinic during the week instead of hardcore classes. It feels like prison to have to cram all weekend when it is gorgeous July weather, with no relief, for a test where the class average is almost always around a D-. And it doesn't matter what you score on the test as long as you score better than half your classmates. If you beat half of them you will get a B in the class, but if you don't beat them you will probably get a D in the class. And my neighbors think it is a good idea to mow their lawn right when I get into my study groove.

 

[JamieMac]

...for a test where the class average is almost always around a D-. And it doesn't matter what you score on the test as long as you score better than half your classmates. If you beat half of them you will get a B in the class, but if you don't beat them you will probably get a D in the class.

Given your perspective, the next couple of years sound like they're going to be quite painful.

 

[Hysteria24]

You know what's hard? SUMMER SEMESTER! It actually isn't a difficult semester, but being stuck inside is awful--they won't even open the blinds in the classrooms to let sunlight in! The fact that it is beautiful, sunny, and warm in Michigan right now, and we are all stuck inside studying while the DS3s and DS4s have their whole weekend off to play since they are in clinic during the week instead of hardcore classes. It feels like prison to have to cram all weekend when it is gorgeous July weather, with no relief, for a test where the class average is almost always around a D-. And it doesn't matter what you score on the test as long as you score better than half your classmates. If you beat half of them you will get a B in the class, but if you don't beat them you will probably get a D in the class. And my neighbors think it is a good idea to mow their lawn right when I get into my study groove.

Dr2BSoon -- do you go to UofM or UDM?

 

[Dr2BSoon]

Dr2BSoon -- do you go to UofM or UDM?

UDM--I love it!!! I know my last post was kind of complaint filled, but it was just such a nice day and I didn't want to be cooped up studying all day. I am thrilled to be at UDM, and wouldn't want to be anywhere else!

 

[youngmc27]

D school is hard no matter where you go. It all depends on how hard you work and time management. Your classes are not necessarily harder you are just taking so many more of them. I go to USC so we don't have normal lectures but I am currently taking Case, Perio, Amalgams, Anatomy, and just finished occlusion. The next semesters just get worse. Time managment is the key to good grades and success in dental school. And if you are blessed with incredible hand skills that helps too.

 

[verticalbitewin]

In my dental school days, we worked hard and I know that current students still do. However, the GPA of entering classes has dropped steadily since the 1980's. Dental schools from prestigious universities have closed -- nearly all of the new dental schools are associated with Schools of Osteopathic Medicine (sort of like a Grade B Medical School).

The academics of dentistry are not difficult for anyone who did well in college prep work. The struggle is to master the clinical techniques within a four year period (and God help the poor students at Pacific!). Remember, in Dentistry it is all about the "hands" and not the "brains"!

I disagree with everything this person just posted!

its like this,
dental school will be the worst and hardest experience of your life, hands down.

 

[HupHolland]

I disagree with everything this person just posted!

its like this,
dental school will be the worst and hardest experience of your life, hands down.

You sound like a pleasure to be around!

I agree, dental school is hard. But it is definitely not a horrible experience. If you look at it this way, then chances are you will probably never be happy. There are positives in every situation- you just need to know where to find them.

-Hup!

 

[DCRedskinsRule]

I'm going to the Houston dental school and my college roommate is actually going to the Houston medical school. He used to be one of those pre-meds that considered dental school to be "a high-school version of medical school" and I would have to remind him that yes...it's four years....

Then when we both got in, we compared schedules....And he's since warned every pre-dental student to run for their lives and yelled at every single pre-med that talks poorly about dental school. His worst semester = 20 credit hours. My worst semester = 38 credit hours.

He has successfully been converted 😀

 

[dentstd]

In my dental school days, we worked hard and I know that current students still do. However, the GPA of entering classes has dropped steadily since the 1980's. Dental schools from prestigious universities have closed -- nearly all of the new dental schools are associated with Schools of Osteopathic Medicine (sort of like a Grade B Medical School).

The academics of dentistry are not difficult for anyone who did well in college prep work. The struggle is to master the clinical techniques within a four year period (and God help the poor students at Pacific!). Remember, in Dentistry it is all about the "hands" and not the "brains"!

There's a difference between saying something others find pleasing and saying something with merit. Unfortunately, most of what DanHerkimer said has merit.

Essentially everything in the first paragraph can be verified factually. 1) One just has to look up whether GPA's have slowly declined since the 80's. Of course, if it does it doesn't suggest lower quality students. Perhaps, it's due to more stringent grading over the decades. Regardless, whether GPA's have declined can be verified. 2) It's absolutely true that dental schools from prestigious schools have closed. Examples include Northwestern, Emory, Washington University in STL, and Georgetown. 3) Newly opened schools are affliated with DO schools [and not medical schools]. Examples include ASDOH and Midwestern. Examples DO NOT include Yale and UT Austin. And yes, DO schools do have lower calibre students, on average, than medical schools.

The second paragraph are more opinions than facts, but what he said are hardly farfetched. 1) Dental school isn't hard for those who did well in college. Big surprise. 2) Yes, it can be a struggle to master hand skills in 4 years. Doing it in 3 years may actually be an extreme challenge. Note that he didn't say students at Pacific won't have the skills need upon graduation. He merely stated that Pacific students have a greater challenge in mastering those skills in 3 years. 3) His last claim about dentistry being all about the hands and not the brains is pure opinion.

 

[DCRedskinsRule]

3) His last claim about dentistry being all about the hands and not the brains is pure opinion.

That doesn't mean that opinions can't be wrong.

 

[dentstd]

I'm going to the Houston dental school and my college roommate is actually going to the Houston medical school. He used to be one of those pre-meds that considered dental school to be "a high-school version of medical school" and I would have to remind him that yes...it's four years....

Then when we both got in, we compared schedules....And he's since warned every pre-dental student to run for their lives and yelled at every single pre-med that talks poorly about dental school. His worst semester = 20 credit hours. My worst semester = 38 credit hours.

He has successfully been converted 😀

Schools make up their own credit hours. Credit hours do not convert between professional schools. It's a no-brainer that dental students are in class longer than med students. The question is whether the course material are of differing difficulty. There, you'd have to compare lecture notes, past exams, and possibly the generosity of the curve.

 

[dentstd]

That doesn't mean that opinions can't be wrong.

Opinions, by their nature, are usually neither right nor wrong.

 

[DCRedskinsRule]

Schools make up their own credit hours. Credit hours do not convert between professional schools. It's a no-brainer that dental students are in class longer than med students. The question is whether the course material are of differing difficulty. There, you'd have to compare lecture notes, past exams, and possibly the generosity of the curve.

That's an irrelevant point. That same inconsistency between dental schools and medical schools is the same apparent inconsistency between various dental schools as well. Not every dental school will have the same professors, standards, calibre of students, or grading policies.

And sure, maybe to YOU it's a no-brainer that dental students are in class longer than medical students. If you read my post, my point was that most do NOT see that as a no-brainer and are surprised at the amount of time, effort, and energy that goes into becoming someone who "just cleans teeth."

 

[dentstd]

That's an irrelevant point. That same inconsistency between dental schools and medical schools is the same apparent inconsistency between various dental schools as well. Not every dental school will have the same professors, standards, calibre of students, or grading policies.

And sure, maybe to YOU it's a no-brainer that dental students are in class longer than medical students. If you read my post, my point was that most do NOT see that as a no-brainer and are surprised at the amount of time, effort, and energy that goes into becoming someone who "just cleans teeth."

It's very hard to understand what you're trying to say. Your written words aren't capturing what your thoughts are saying. What "inconsistency" are you referring to? And yes, "not every dental school will have the same professors...policies." Likewise with every school on the planet.

And most professional student are overwhelmed by the amount of work they have to expend in school. Many med students study all day. As do dental students, pharmacy students, and vet students. Hell, law students are in class a mere 2.5 hours/day on avg, and many can't keep up with the case law they have to read and complain that there isn't enough time to study. Students like to bitch. That's a given.

And I'll assume the "high school version of medical school" refers to time commitment, not level of difficulty. That seems to be your train of thought.

 

[DCRedskinsRule]

It's very hard to understand what you're trying to say. Your written words aren't capturing what your thoughts are saying. What "inconsistency" are you referring to? And yes, "not every dental school will have the same professors...policies." Likewise with every school on the planet.

And most professional student are overwhelmed by the amount of work they have to expend in school. Many med students study all day. As do dental students, pharmacy students, and vet students. Hell, law students are in class a mere 2.5 hours/day on avg, and many can't keep up with the case law they have to read and complain that there isn't enough time to study. Students like to bitch. That's a given.

And I'll assume the "high school version of medical school" refers to time commitment, not level of difficulty. That seems to be your train of thought.

While I sincerely appreciate your attempt at psycho-analyzing my previous post, I don't think it was really necessary to clarify my point. I mentioned the discrepancy of credit hours, you responded by implying that time wasn't as important as difficulty and the only way to gauge that was to compare notes between medical and dental students to see the difficulty of material/tests rather than the quantity. My response to that was that the inconsistency in terms of difficulty that you're alluding to between medical and dental schools, can easily be applied within the realm of just dental schools as well.

I'm failing to see what was unclear to you. Perhaps if I spoke more in your language of pretension that you're clearly more accustomed to, you might have understood my point.

 

[dentstd]

I'm failing to see what was unclear to you. Perhaps if I spoke more in your language of pretension that you're clearly more accustomed to, you might have understood my point.

The confusion was your vague expression that dental school was a "high school version of medical school." It appears that were referring to the reduced time comment aspect of high school, and you wrote the remainder of your claims assuming that the reader understood that expression in the manner you had intended. This did not become apparent until later posts.

I, however, read that statement to mean that dental school was of lower difficulty than medical school, and the entirety of what I said was based on that understanding. Thus, we were on a different page.

And you can speak "pretension" if you wish. I'd just rather you speakly clearly.

 

[DCRedskinsRule]

The confusion was your vague expression that dental school was a "high school version of medical school." It appears that were referring to the reduced time comment aspect of high school, and you wrote the remainder of your claims assuming that the reader understood that expression in the manner you had intended. This did not become apparent until later posts.

I, however, read that statement to mean that dental school was of lower difficulty than medical school, and the entirety of what I said was based on that understanding. Thus, we were on a different page.

And you can speak "pretension" if you wish. I'd just rather you speakly clearly.

I just find it funny that over on the med forums, statements like 'dental school is like the high school version of med school' pop up.

I'd just rather you read the entire thread before ascending to your royal and authoritative SDN throne.