Saw this on cnn.com. What do you soon to be dentist think of theses dental spas?
http://www.cnn.com/2007/HEALTH/02/19/dental.spas.ap/index.html
http://www.cnn.com/2007/HEALTH/02/19/dental.spas.ap/index.html
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Dental Spas
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Hey, if it gets patients recieving quality dental care, and they are willing to pay for it, then go for it.
M
MsPurtell
Hot wax mittens during your RCT???? WTF?
ACtually, I've always been curious about these places. I think they are viewed as hokey by the profession, but as the above commenter said, if you can provide great work and the pt coughs up for it, sounds good!
ACtually, I've always been curious about these places. I think they are viewed as hokey by the profession, but as the above commenter said, if you can provide great work and the pt coughs up for it, sounds good!
Not nearly as "hokey" as all the jakes out there offering "sleep dentistry" to their patients. At least they are actually providing a service and not a scam.
CNN article said:
I've spent time in a couple of these practices. They literally nauseated me.
I'm talking about $1500 a unit for fixed, no direct restorations unless the victim/patient absolutely refuses to yield on getting everything inlaid or onlaid, refer everything except the crown & bridge, treatment plans of at least $10000 for virtually everyone who walks in the door (even the walk-in toothache patients the guys claim to welcome in order to feel better about themselves), and full-time employees whose sole job responsibility is pressuring patients into accepting the full treatment plan and paying everything up front.
If that's not a scam, I don't know what is. Next to those hacks, I'll take a yellow-pages ad for "sleep dentistry" 7 days a week and twice on Sunday.
I'm fine with dental spas except that I think they are kinda cheesy. The only thing I find absolutely ridiculous is when you go to a dental spa that is named Sutra Dental or Relaxing Qi Dental, or Tao Dental, and everyone in there is asian, except the dentist.
We provide a "spa" atmosphere. I think you are missing the point. Not every patient leaves with a "$10,000" treatment plan. We provide all types of dentistry, (direct restorations, indirect, RPD, RCT), and the prices are the same as you would find in another "conventional" office down the street. The spa services are free, its something nice for the patient to have with the dental services being provided. Answer me this question, 45 year old female needs a crown done. Dont you think she would prefer the office where she can get a paraffin hand wax, a hot neck towel, and a vibrating chair over the other conventional drill and fill? I'll bet she'll go and rave to her friends as well which = REFERRALS. Spa atmospheres are about being different than all of the other offices. Some of the big treatment plans are about COMPREHENSIVE dental care. Isn't that what all practitioners strive for. WHy don't you get a patient's opinion about her spa experience before you criticize.
I didn't really think that he was criticizing all spa-type practices -- just the ones that do the things that he mentioned. Your practice does not appear to fit that bill, so I think you're outside the circle of criticism.
Point taken. I have just read the article, this type of practice is beyond what what we provide. However, you are still selling a service. A dentist has a right to charge whatever he or she wants for that service. I still cannot see why you would criticize unless the dentistry is sub par. If you could AFFORD $1400 crowns that include a 15 minute massage, wouldn't you pay for it? I don't see anything hokey about it. Just outside the box.
I am concerned about the professional image when you couple the spa treatment type with dentistry. I have no problem of making the patient feel relaxed but dentistry is a medical profession and nail and body massage is vocational profession. Mixing these two makes dentistry looks cheap and 'vocational-ist". DP
If I could afford $1400 crowns, I probably got to that point by being smart enough to let my regular dentist do the crown for $800, treating myself to a $50 massage afterward, and keeping the other $550 in my pocket where it belongs. 😉
CardsFan got it right, though. If you do these things for your patients at no charge and without scamming them out the yingyang on the backend with your fees, that's great. You probably have very loyal patients. The practices I was referring to were another species entirely, and they disgusted me for all the reasons I gave earlier.
I agree with that. Massage aside, I'd pay $1400 for a crown to go to someone that I felt was worthy of that fee. If I walked into the above-mentioned office (not yours) and was presented with a $10K treatment plan, though, I'd go through the roof. Not everyone is in need of that kind of dentistry, even if they can afford it.
I think he was likening a place like that to the quickie lube. They try to sell you three air filters, wipers, and belts, telling you that yours need to be replaced when you've actually just one month ago replaced them yourself.
Now, tell me the most important part...does the massage come with a happy ending? If so, PM me your office number so I can make an appointment. I think I might just need a crown...
😀
You and S Files should talk to each other...
You know, DP, offering a nice, 15-minute oral mucosal massage for you denture patients at each visit might not be bad for business.
I didn't read the link, but Why do you guys think good dentistry is so cheap? I know people who do crowns for $2-4K but they are great. A crown for 1400 is not that far off from average in the future I believe, probably 10 years I would guess. Please remember a crown is not a crown is not a crown. Different levels of work and education go into everybodys work from the dentist to the lab tech.
I just want to point out that our physician colleagues have very similar establishments. Dermatologists usually integrate some sort of "spa" into their practice, as well as many plastic surgeons. I think this is just a different avenue for healthcare providers to go down. This plastic surgeon even named his practice as a spa (http://www.westsidemedicalspa.com/). Here is another cosmetic surgery center that offers spa services (http://www.theskincentermd.com/). One of the doctors there is an OMFS! I just think if you are into cosmetic services (plastic surgery, derm and cosmetic dentistry), making spa options available to your patients might be the way of future.
Everything will be double its price ten years from now...inflation and the time value of money.
I am liking the oral mucosa massage free for all patients. Have you guys ever had one? They are fabulous!
........Its what? A chicken then?
I think this board is funny. I always try to help by giving a realistic point of view and always get replys like I have no idea what I'm talking about from people who have limited views of dentistry.
Get a crown from Frank Spears or John Kois and then go to your local dentist who accepts your plan and you will know what I mean.
Dental students/residents can be so ignorant most of the time about real life dentistry.
Get a crown from Frank Spears or John Kois and then go to your local dentist who accepts your plan and you will know what I mean.
Dental students/residents can be so ignorant most of the time about real life dentistry.
I agree. Most times in life you get what you pay for. If you want a cheap crown, that is what you will get.
I can't help but laugh when I read the posts whining about how "spa-dentistry" makes them sick. I think it is a damn good business idea. However, this is not something a typical nerd with a DDS degree could pull off. You'd have to have a keen business sense and experience in marketing to make this work. The kids whining talking all elitist about how this isn't real dentistry are the same losers who studied 24 hours a day in dental school and never had a life. You were such a nerd you never developed an understanding of business and how to real world works, or how to interact with people, market a service or run a practice. Maybe you should have put the book down one night and gone out in the real world. Get off you high horse, you're a dentist- it's not brain surgery, people aren't dying in your OR. Give your patient a backrub charge him an extra 200 bucks, take it home to feed your family. Don't be a little whining elitist... you nerds make me sick...... Spa Dentistry- damn good idea.
Man, what a way to find out I'm a horrible loser with nothing but failure to look forward to over the next 40 years. 🙁 Sniff.
People living in glass houses...
Someone struck a nerve? Lol. I do agree with you on some of your points. Once you have your DDS, you can make any kind of dental practice that you want. You paid for the education and practice, so your decision. I think those sear's dental places hurt the profession more.
And then someone comes along and fills in the other side of the spectrum for us. The reprobates of society who think they are King Tit because they have an opinion that demoralizes others.
Aphistis was making a point about his extremist spa dentistry guys. Same goes for any extremist. Ever seen he guy who has a 100% Star Trek dental office? His scrubs are designed like the uniforms, his equipment takes on similar characteristics. His walls are covered in Trekkie memorabilia.
MY opinion is more power to them if it works. As for me I think flat screens, fish tank, and a couple of xbox's in the lounge will work. For the quality of my crowns (have yet to make one, nor will I in PP) I will charge 1100 and come to a happy median between the Utah price of 800 and the NYU price of 1600.
Oh crap! It's been more than 5 minutes. Back to the books.
/nerd
Amen! I dont have a solid foundation of the technical side of dentistry since I will be starting dental school this year, but I have had 7 years of experience in the sales and marketing industry. An essential principle of success that I have learned that many dentists fail to recognize is the need to make their service more enticing to the consumer. In dentistry, the price, quality, and comfort are amongst the most important enticements that the consumer looks for in a dentist. I think the idea of creating a relaxing atmosphere is brilliant not only because it seems to be lucrative, but also it can help a patient overcome the fear of dentistry. I am all for it.
Glass house? lol. Sorry buddy, I'm talking about interactions in the "real world," sorry to break it to you, but anonymous interactions on an internet forum aren't a very good way to judge people skills. You get alot more brutal honesty on here than in the real world. Sitting in your cubicle at the library posting replies on this forum isn't helping your personality any.
I bet you're defensive because you're a typical nerdy elitist dental student. You study all the time, never go out. Then come into class and regurgitate information out of the text, ask a bunch of questions and suck up to the professor. I bet it really is gonna piss you off when you find out there was no assigned reading on developing the intangible qualities and business sense that can make you a successful Dentist.
...and we'll let that be the final insulting word.Glass house? lol. Sorry buddy, I'm talking about interactions in the "real world," sorry to break it to you, but anonymous interactions on an internet forum aren't a very good way to judge people skills. You get alot more brutal honesty on here than in the real world. Sitting in your cubicle at the library posting replies on this forum isn't helping your personality any.
I bet you're defensive because you're a typical nerdy elitist dental student. You study all the time, never go out. Then come into class and regurgitate information out of the text, ask a bunch of questions and suck up to the professor. I bet it really is gonna piss you off when you find out there was no assigned reading on developing the intangible qualities and business sense that can make you a successful Dentist.
Meanwhile, back on topic...
You're absolutely right. If you (and even Guiness, for that matter) want to build spa practices, more power to both of you and I wish you the best. My only point is that it's not prerequisite to go all-out building a boutique practice (most often with accompanying exorbitant fees) to have an office where your patients feel comfortable, relaxed, and appreciated.ldsmbhc said:
Glass house? lol. Sorry buddy, I'm talking about interactions in the "real world," sorry to break it to you, but anonymous interactions on an internet forum aren't a very good way to judge people skills. You get alot more brutal honesty on here than in the real world. Sitting in your cubicle at the library posting replies on this forum isn't helping your personality any.
I bet you're defensive because you're a typical nerdy elitist dental student. You study all the time, never go out. Then come into class and regurgitate information out of the text, ask a bunch of questions and suck up to the professor. I bet it really is gonna piss you off when you find out there was no assigned reading on developing the intangible qualities and business sense that can make you a successful Dentist.
Funny, because using only anonymous internet forum interactions you've been able to judge:
1. How good of a businessman they are.
2. Their classroom habits.
3. The kicker, though for some reason noone else can, with your internet powers you're able to "judge people skills."
The whole point of spa dentistry is to offset the uncomfortable aspects of a dental visit DURING the appointment. If Your dentist is charging only $800 for a crown, there is a reason why its on the less expensive side. Types of porcelain, types of metal, types of ceramics, etc... Just because someones fees are higher, doesn't mean hes scamming. Dentistry is an ethical service, but also a BUSINESS. I know of a well known dentist who charges $10,000 for a set of dentures (not even a "spa" practice). His reasoning, the patient will get a better denture than the guy charging $3000 down the street. He'll use the best teeth, extra try-in appointments, and he sets his own teeth. I don't know about you, but I don't always look for the least expensive product/service. Especially when it comes to my health.
Wow. Ten grand for chompers? You could almost buy a new car for that much. Does the dentures have an engine that chews the food for you?
You should tell the people to come down here to LA where at a place called affordable dentures you can get a set for $350 bones. This is my referral!
http://72.32.184.72/office.asp?results=1&num=70#top
Quality!
With the headaches that often arise with removable pros, Id rather do 1 $3000 set of dentures a month opposed to 9 at $350. I would bet that those $350 dentures are made with the cheapest teeth on the market(which means flat plastic with minimal transluceny a no anatomy). A good set of teeth can run $150-175, after all of the other materials involved the lab cost can approach $300. Now If you are charging $350 you are LOSING money. If I could afford $3000 for a set of dentures (and had no teeth😀 😀 ) and the lab down the street was selling them for $350, I would question why they were so cheap? THERE IS A DIFFERENCE. Of course this is just my opinion and my wife disagrees with it everyday🙂
Even better is when you can sell the patient on 5 implants and a maxillary overdenture ( $12,000 - $14,000)....but that is probably on the less expensive end.
I know, i know. I'm just kidding. But they do send a lot of patients to us for FMX and insertion of their immediate.
Now you're talking. But please tell me you're not sending that implant patient to the gum gardener for the implants?
You are the one in chicago? Up north it seems more commonplace to have implant supported full dentures, where down here it's still rare. Thoughts?
Im on the eastern shore. I think the further you are from urban or dental school towns, the less educated the patients are about implants/implant retained pros. We feel the standard of care for an edentulous patient is complete upper/implant retained lower (minimum 2 implants obviously). But when you show patients how the implant retained upper can be designed without palatal coverage (get your taste and feel back), the higher socioeconomic/more discretionary income are going for it. Just not alot of patients want to throw their new car discretionary income into an upper denture with implants. Its frustrating, and this is why most dentists want a practice geared towards WANT dentistry, rather than NEED dentistry. Hence, spas and higher fees. I think the bottom line is YOU CAN CHARGE WHATEVER YOU WANT!
True that you can charge whatever you want but if you charge 10,000 grands for a CD/CD then it becomes fraud. Justifying the fee by " we give extra visits for try in, we do trial dentures first for you to get used to the new ones, I personally set the teeth myself, we use the finest teeth, our lab tech are world renowed.... so and so " is BUNK! People who do this defraud people by leading them to think that by "costing more, then it must be good!". I have done enough dentures in my life that I tell you NOT to go see dentists who claims that his are better than yours because of his fee. I have seen these types of claim and I can't wait to be the expert witness at the stand. DP
Damn.
Watch out, Dai Phan is pissed.
Watch out, Dai Phan is pissed.
Umm....wrong. I'm not saying that patients are told "this denture is better than that one", Im just saying that patients understand that every possible step is taken to insure the highest quality denture. They are informed that it is their choice to have their denture done at a lower cost somewhere else, but this is our cost. How can you call this fraud? Do you think when you go out to eat at a nice restaraunt and your steak is $40 its fraud because it only cost the restaraunt $10. NO dentist in their right mind would say I charge this because its better. It is "I charge this because this is what we feel is the fee for this service in our practice". You show me where it says the ADA or FDA or government for that matter sets the fee for the service I provide. A dental appointment is much more than the clinical aspect. If you set your schedule where you give UNDIVIDED attention to that patient (not double booking or running out every 15 minutes for hygiene checks), patients will feel special and pay for THAT aspect. I've been in both types of practices, drill and fill mills (insurance based, double/triple booked, assistants restore teeth), and the single booked treat the patient as a person not a tooth;the same production is generated, less patients seen, and better dentist/patient relationships.
One can justify the cost for a service but up to a point before it becomes absurb (ie. fraud). There is NO WAY a person can justify for a 10 grand dentures and get away with it at the trial unless the service rendered reasonably cost 10 grands. I really would like to hear your justifications for this fee and I am all ears here. Is it " we use the best material to make your custom trays or the finest wax to set up or the finest teeth on the planet?" or what? Is there a patented procedure in making dentures that I am not aware or perhaps the dentures were blessed by the Pope prior to delivery? I have no problems of your high fees IF there are justifications for them. If not, I think you are taking advantage of ill informed patients. DP
More....
When I was a resident, I went to a presentation where the speaker avocated the proper way to make a set of dentures. For those who are prosthodontics orientated, it is called the "Earl Pound Technique" where multiple steps are taken prior to making the final set. This comprises of making multiple trial dentures at different teeth set up, a whole array of different type of occlusion, then once the patient is doing well with the trial dentures they will be converted to the final set. And it does not end there, the dentures will have insintric staining and all the anatomy such as palatal rugae and attached and unattached gingival coloring. This could easily cost 10 grands but you tell me if you are doing a service to a patient by doing it this way. At the time, I was in "awe" with the guy but after doing hundreds of dentures, I tell you now that it is a total waste of time for the patient. There is nothing that you can't achieve by taking a proper primary impression, final impression and choose the occlusion right. Regarding insintric staining, it is easy and you can request the lab tech to do this with minimal charge. Give me 5 visits, pay me 2000 grands and I will make a denture that is as good as any known to man. DP
When I was a resident, I went to a presentation where the speaker avocated the proper way to make a set of dentures. For those who are prosthodontics orientated, it is called the "Earl Pound Technique" where multiple steps are taken prior to making the final set. This comprises of making multiple trial dentures at different teeth set up, a whole array of different type of occlusion, then once the patient is doing well with the trial dentures they will be converted to the final set. And it does not end there, the dentures will have insintric staining and all the anatomy such as palatal rugae and attached and unattached gingival coloring. This could easily cost 10 grands but you tell me if you are doing a service to a patient by doing it this way. At the time, I was in "awe" with the guy but after doing hundreds of dentures, I tell you now that it is a total waste of time for the patient. There is nothing that you can't achieve by taking a proper primary impression, final impression and choose the occlusion right. Regarding insintric staining, it is easy and you can request the lab tech to do this with minimal charge. Give me 5 visits, pay me 2000 grands and I will make a denture that is as good as any known to man. DP
If you have a dentaltown account, I believe this is a link about denture treatment planning, fees, etc. Althought the thread starter (Dr. Barotz) charges $10,000 + for his dentures, it is not uncommon based on some of the responses to have fees up to $4000. Pretty interesting stuff. Look, ethical dentistry is what should be ingrained in our minds, but it is business. Work smarter not harder (80/20 principle😀 😀 )
http://www.docere.com/MessageBoard/thread.aspx?s=2&f=151&t=8555&r=0#Post0
http://www.docere.com/MessageBoard/thread.aspx?s=2&f=151&t=8555&r=0#Post0
I consider myself the " consumer advocate" and I will offer my advice to patients so that they can become better informed consumers. I am willing to testify in a case if I feel that the consumer is being cheated out of their money and of course if I am choosen for that task. In my professional career, I have seen dentists taking advantage of the patients by offering to replace amalgams with composites for "better health", offering dubious no scientific value treatment for TMD condition, holistic dentistry type with herbal therapy.... I agree dentistry is bussiness, everybody is in for the money but don't let your greediness take over. Ie, don't recommend a crown if the tooth needs a Class I alloy, don't recommend a veneer if the tooth just need a class V composite, don't recommend a full mouth reconstruction if patient only needs a hard occlusal splint for the TMD condition. Others may disagree but that how I practice dentistry and sleep well at night. DP
OK, you win. Since I am a maxillofacial prosthodontist I will charge 3000 bucks. That is still under 10,000. On a serious note, I would like to know what comprises in the 10 grand dentures? Are they implant retained? The best service I think is an upper CD with lower CD retained by two implants and that is still under 10. I am very curious to know. DP
DP, are you a plaintiff *****? I hope not. And as a side note, where in your maxillofacial prosthodonics training did you become a specialist in TMD? I was under the impression that this was more an OMFS or oro-facial pain specialists training?
I'll second that treatment planning philosophy👍 And yes I also sleep very well at night using that philosophy😴 😀
For your information there is NO such thing as a speciality in TMD. I am quite suprised you don't know this. I don't care if you are a general dentist or "oro-facial pain specialist" or board certified OMFS as these trainings don't make you of something that does not exist. As a maxillofacial prosthodontist, I am trained in rendering PROSTHETIC rehalibitation of the maxilofacial structure so treating TMD is part of my training since it involves prosthetic management. Learning to manage TMD is taught in prosthodontic residency, not in my MP fellowship. There are patients that I treat and there are patients that I referr to the OS. Are you calling yourself a TMD "specialist" since you are an OS? DP
I don't think this discussion has anything to do with overtreatment. I believe we were talking about setting and owning your own fees. I attached a link with respect to the "10k dentures". This thread included clinicians who have been doing dentistry for 20 + years. I am new to the profession and certainly am not offering opinion/examples solely based on my experiences. Its nice to see you have such high ethical standards. This is certainly noble. I certainly aspire to keep such high ethical standards throughout my career, treat to the standard of care, and in my opinion, stay out of the courtroom with respect to any instance. The public is frivilous enough as it is🙂 🙂 🙂 .
OH, and by the way, I dont loose any sleep charging 3k for a set of dentures. And in 3 months, we'll probably raise our fees (started 4 cases in the last 3 weeks)🙂 🙂
I am sure that if I join the 10 K denture discussion and offer my honest opinion I am sure I will be barred from the site. It simply does not cost in 10K in service to make a functional, esthetically pleasing denture. Why don't you let me know what services they render that costs that much as I am as well as others I am sure would like to know. DP
Dai Pan, I think you are missing some basic economic principles on this one. This isn't the soviet union, we are living in a capitalistic nation- this is a free market. It is not "fraud" as you claim to charge 10,000 for a set of dentures. There's more that goes into cost other than raw materials and labor used to produce the units. The customer is paying for your expertise- for those 4 years of hard work you put in dental school- this is an intangible- there is no set price here. If you are claiming that your dentures are as good as anything the world could produce you are full of it, there is always someone better. You fail to consider location of the practice. Cost of living, real estate values= higher prices. A beverly hills practice charges more than a rural practice- do you think this is fraud too? If there wasn't a consumer willing to pay 10K for dentures then they wouldn't be selling them that high- basic suppy and demand. For some people money is not a factor. Some people want the absolute best of everything and will pay top dollar for it. If you are the best in the world at what you do you can name your price- this is not fraud.
If I tell you that I charge 1500 dollars for an occlusal alloy on #19 and my reasons are as follows:
1. I use fresh burs (never used on a patient).
2. I take my time and ensure that the walls are properly converged. I use a dedicated instrument to measure the angle of convergence.
3. I use warm water minted with mouthwash to prevent tooth sensitivity as water spray.
4. I use special magnifying glass to see my preparations.
5. I carve my amalgam to restore anatomy to minute details using references from the best 4 dental anatomy text books.
6. I polish my restorations.
7. All my Class I restorations comes with "Life Time Guarantee" for occlusal adjustments.
8. All restorations come with bi-anually inspections.
I am sure you don't have problems with this. DP
I would probably opt for an occl. resin or inlay(composite or porcelain) myself. Id prefer not to have those great big ugly alloys stuffed in my teeth!!!😀 😀
Well said.
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