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Dental Specialties vs. Dermatology
- Thread starter tennischamp822
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Someone a few years back did their due diligence and looked at the AMA and ADA salary surveys from 2003 and calculated the hourly wages. You'll find Derm nestled snugly below 6 dental specialties and slightly above general dentistry:
Salary/Hours
1. Oral and Maxillofacial Surgeon 336/36 = $179.5/hr
2. Endodontist 303.9/36 = $162.4/hr
3. Pedodontiac Dentist 294.4/36 = $157.1/hr
4. Orthodontist 279.4/36 = $149.0/hr
5. Orthopedic Surgeon 335.8/54.1 = $119.4/hr
6. Periodontist 216.4/36 = $115.4/hr
7. Pathologist 246.5/41.6 = $114.0/hr
8. Rad (Diag)/Rad Onc 327.7/58.5 = $107.7/hr
9. Prosthodontist 190.9/36 = $102.0/hr
10. Opthalomologist 229.2/43.7 = $100.9/hr
11. Dermatologist 219.5/42 = $100.5/hr
12. EM 220/45 = $94.0/hr
13. General Dentist 173.1/36 = $92.4/hr
14. Neurosurgery / Plastic Surgery 275.2/59.6 = $88.8/hr
15. Urologist 264.5/57.4 = $88.6/hr
16. Surgeon (gen) 263.7/58.2 = $87.1/hr
17. Anesthesiologist 244.7/58.7 = $80.2/hr
18. ENT 214.5/52.1 = $79.2/hr
19. OB/GYN 227/55.7 = $78.4/hr
20. Neurologist 183.1/53.7 = $65.6/hr
21. Psychiatrist 145.7/44 = $63.7/hr
22. IM 164.1/55.6 = $56.8/hr
23. FP 146.5/50.7 = $55.6/hr
24. Pediatrician 137.8/49.4 = $53.6/hr
http://www.ada.org/ada/prod/survey/publications_newreports.asp#income
Survey of Dental Practice. c. 2003 Edition, American Dental Association
http://medicine.wustl.edu/~residenc...pec/byspec.html
Physician Socioeconomic Statistics. c. 2003 Edition, American Medical Association
Salary/Hours
1. Oral and Maxillofacial Surgeon 336/36 = $179.5/hr
2. Endodontist 303.9/36 = $162.4/hr
3. Pedodontiac Dentist 294.4/36 = $157.1/hr
4. Orthodontist 279.4/36 = $149.0/hr
5. Orthopedic Surgeon 335.8/54.1 = $119.4/hr
6. Periodontist 216.4/36 = $115.4/hr
7. Pathologist 246.5/41.6 = $114.0/hr
8. Rad (Diag)/Rad Onc 327.7/58.5 = $107.7/hr
9. Prosthodontist 190.9/36 = $102.0/hr
10. Opthalomologist 229.2/43.7 = $100.9/hr
11. Dermatologist 219.5/42 = $100.5/hr
12. EM 220/45 = $94.0/hr
13. General Dentist 173.1/36 = $92.4/hr
14. Neurosurgery / Plastic Surgery 275.2/59.6 = $88.8/hr
15. Urologist 264.5/57.4 = $88.6/hr
16. Surgeon (gen) 263.7/58.2 = $87.1/hr
17. Anesthesiologist 244.7/58.7 = $80.2/hr
18. ENT 214.5/52.1 = $79.2/hr
19. OB/GYN 227/55.7 = $78.4/hr
20. Neurologist 183.1/53.7 = $65.6/hr
21. Psychiatrist 145.7/44 = $63.7/hr
22. IM 164.1/55.6 = $56.8/hr
23. FP 146.5/50.7 = $55.6/hr
24. Pediatrician 137.8/49.4 = $53.6/hr
http://www.ada.org/ada/prod/survey/publications_newreports.asp#income
Survey of Dental Practice. c. 2003 Edition, American Dental Association
http://medicine.wustl.edu/~residenc...pec/byspec.html
Physician Socioeconomic Statistics. c. 2003 Edition, American Medical Association
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These numbers must have been computed by a dental student, because they show relative incompetence in math. The units don't add up! Dividing those two numbers doesn't give you dollars per hour.
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Neurosurg/ Ortho spine are the highest paid (reimbursed) surgical specialties right now. I know by your 2 externships you are probably a surgical expert, but please get a clue before posting this crap.
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lol Owned!
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Gary "Stay away from my 1040" Ruska here,
Here are some more recent numbers, (c) ADA 2006 (income survey from 2005), for full-time practitioners (1600 hours or more/year)
1. OMFS: $408,570 for 1920 hours/year
2. Endo: $362,700 for 1824 hours/year
3. Pedo: $337,800 for 1728 hours/year
4. Ortho: $309,970 for 1728 hours/year
5. Perio: $295,630 for 1824 hours/year
6. Prosth: $232,310 for 1920 hours/year
7. General: $210,280 for 1728 hours/year
Hourly income (estimated):
1. OMFS: $213
2. Endo: $199
3. Pedo: $195
4. Ortho: $179
5. Perio: $162
6. Prosth: $121
7. General: $122
Source: ADA surveys, Income from the Private Practice of Dentistry. (c) 2006, American Dental Association, Chicago, IL.
If you comment on this, please remember/do the following:
1. These numbers are for private practitioners, not researchers or academics.
2. These numbers are for full-time practitioners, not once-a-week people.
3. These number represent averages and, as such, you may know someone who makes much, much, much more or much, much, much less. GR (and most everyone else on this board for that matter) doesn't care about this orthodontist you know who makes $100 million dollars a year (pinky to upper lip).
4. If you want to debate these data, provide a source such that your description does not resemble the Dark Helmet monologue to Lonestar in Spaceballs.
5. Listen to the Bob Dylan song "The Times They Are A'Changin'" --> dentistry is, economically speaking, where medicine was 25 years ago. History is going to repeat itself real soon. For a sneak peak, look at medicine circa 1994 - present.
How do these numbers compare to medicine? Who cares. You're a dentist and will likely make more the 95% of the US population (even after the implementation of Obamacare or whatever the end-product is called). Be happy and study hard.
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I don't believe those surveys. There are a lot of other medical/dental-income surveys around, and they all use different sources of info. Many of them ( Bureau of Labor and SalaryWizard ) show physician salaries to be much higher.
And really, how the hell does the average neurosurgeon make less than a GP dentist, or any other dental specialty, on an hourly basis?
And really, how the hell does the average neurosurgeon make less than a GP dentist, or any other dental specialty, on an hourly basis?
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Because a neurosurgeon works almost double the amount of hours put in by a general dentist. 36 Vs 60. Remember this is only the average income divided by the average number of hours worked.
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Dear Mr. "Not so Green" Lantern,
Thanks for illustrating exactly the kind of misinformed logic that leads to these repeated questions about the most standard topics.
There's so many flaws in your response, GR doesn't quite know where to begin!
All kidding aside...
1. Bureau of Labor Statistics: Where do they get their info from? Salaried employees and tax returns. How many dentists are salaried employees? Most dentists fall into the category of independent practitioner or partner within a group, neither of whom draw a "salary" in the same sense as a hospital employee, which many physicians are. Most "salaried" dentists are academic employees or work for the state in some other capacity (i.e. not private practitioners). Finally, given that most dentists are small-business owners, their tax returns do not reflect actual income in many instances, as there are obvious tax benefits to stating that, as a business owner, your salary/income is less.
2. Salarywizard - How can you say that the ADA stats are inaccurate because they are a survey and then state that Salarwizard is accurate? It too is a web-based survey. It seems that you have the preconceived notion that physicians on the whole make more the dentists and will provide whatever data, flimsy as it is, to support your specious reasoning.
3. As our Wonderwoman points out above, neurosurgeons and orthopedists likely make more per year even though they make the same per hour as endodontists because THEY WORK MORE HOURS PER WEEK.
Please provide some data to support your claims, along with a critique of the quality of such data and its limitations. Surely as either a medical or dental student (which GR suspects you must be, given your know-it-all attitude with no basis for such confidence), you must have learned, at some point, how to evaluate and assess the quality of data.
GR will even get you started by adding a critique of the ADA data:
1. Represents only private practitioners so there is a selection bias, as they make much more than academics. Though, it can be inferred that the averages are not likely off by as much, as academics represent only about 10% of the dental workforce.
2. It is a survey so it may over-estimate or under-estimate incomes based on individualized patterns of reporting income. It would be foolish to suggest, as you do, that dentists as a whole inflate their income when reporting surveys, where as physicians do not. As a corollary, it would also be foolish to suggest that both groups deflate their income when reporting it. There is simply no way of knowing. The ADA surveys, flawed as they are, are just the best that we have.
Having said all this, GR will certainly grant you the following points:
Neurosurgeons, Cardiac Surgeons, Spine Surgeons all make more than dentists, as they should. The opportunity cost for specializing in these areas and the enormous burden placed on these individuals who are saving lives everyday justifies their income.
Finally, a brief purview of your trusted Salarywizard gives the following income data:
Dermatologist: $253, 178
Oral and Maxillofacial Surgeon: $269,115
Otolaryngologist: $291,265
Plastic and Reconstructive Surgeon: $317,846
Orthopedic Surgeon: $403,084
Cardiac Surgeon: $436,735
Neurosurgeon: $453,689
*Note: No comparison for hours worked and no data provided.
GR thinks that it can be agreed that OMFS, who work about 40 hours a week on average, are most like dermatologists, according to the flawless data on Salary Wizard. Not bad company to keep. Everyone else on that list almost certainly works more than 50 hours/week.
You'll note that the income for cardiac surgeons is listed as $436,735. Do you happen to know any cardiac surgery fellows or junior attendings? If so, tell them how envious you are of their income. They'll think you're a regular Jerry Seinfeld.
Copied from the website: "This basic market pricing report was prepared using our Certified Compensation Professionals' analysis of survey data collected from thousands of HR departments at employers of all sizes, industries and geographies."
GR has one question for you: how many dentists in private practice do you know who have HR departments or work for companies who do?
Though, to make sure you have a happy Friday, GR will concede the following point:
Dentists do not make as much money as most medical specialists. They also work fewer hours, have more time off, fewer stresses related to life and death issues and are generally happy people. Medical specialists who have lifestyles comparable to dental specialists make roughly (within 20k) the same amount of money, but have more liability (mucking up a molar endo vs. missing a diagnosis of melanoma - both bad days for the practitioner, though one much more likely than the other to have a lawyer at the other end). Having gone to both dental school and medical school, GR can tell you that GR only once heard from a pros faculty that dentistry "wasn't worth it". In medical school, GR heard that medicine "wasn't worth it" at least once a day. You do the math.
Gary "Hobo like Lobo" Ruska
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Dentistry in general does not make anything don't let these guys lie to you.... You should definitely stick with medical and tell your friends to do the same o and if you end up applying wait until after the 2011 cycle because that cycle is only for the students who don't want good salaries.... trust me😉
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Day-am...Now that, kids, is called getting "pwned"...
Kudos to GR for keeping the riff-raff under control...
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GR should get the SDN award for "longest verbal a**-kicking"
When all is said and done though, I thnk the key diff. between mds and dentists is that we can choose to work a lot or not. For them, its not often a choice.
to all the youngsters out there - gR makes a good point - don't worry about money, it'll be there. just do what you like.
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Gary Ruska is the Chuck Norris of SDN.
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Great post.
It's fascinating to me that when I was pre-med (which I was until very recently), every physician I shadowed (most were family friends) was super nice and very encouraging about going into medicine, but once I told them I had made my decision on dentistry a few months after shadowing them, every single one of them said that I had made a very good decision.
The end of your post that I quoted just reminded me of that and it's interesting (and depressing) how widespread that sentiment is in medicine at the moment.
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GR - Love your post. It seems very informative.
As with everyone is saying, so what you love and the money will take care of itself. Money's worth is the worth we place in it. Its actually just paper.!
As with everyone is saying, so what you love and the money will take care of itself. Money's worth is the worth we place in it. Its actually just paper.!
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In addition, I'm not sure how hard it is to pursue subspecialty training after dental school, but it's worth noting that the lifestyle friendly fields in medicine (especially dermatology) are incredibly difficult to enter. Something to keep in mind if you're deciding between dental school/medical school.
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The same can be said with dental specialties such as orthodontics and endodontics too. DP
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The major difference, of course, being that dentistry *itself* is a lifestyle specialty. 😉
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I think what Dr. Phan and Bill are trying to tell you is the following:
MD --> Specialties (and primary care) have terrible hours EXCEPT Radiology, Anesthesia, Ophthalmology, Dermatology and Emergency Medicine.
DMD/DDS --> Specialties (and GPs) have great hours EXCEPT oral and maxillofacial surgery.
MD --> People who make the most money usually have the worst hours: CV surgeons, neurosurgeons, spine surgeons
DMD/DDS --> People who make the most money usually work the most hours (i.e. ortho, endo and OMFS pretty much make the same per hour): OMFS
Finally:
MD --> Tons of specialties, not hard to specialize in general (though there are specialties that are hard to get into, not all of the lifestyle specialties are difficult to get into)
DMD/DDS --> Not many specialties, harder to specialize in general, especially for the high income specialties (OMFS, endo, ortho)
Happy to be a GP,
AjM
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Some new figures on physician salaries:
http://www.cejkasearch.com/compensation/amga_physician_compensation_survey.htm
It claims Orthopedic Surgeons can make about 600k. They still probably work horrible hours but i believe the hourly rate would nonetheless be higher than OMFS.
http://www.cejkasearch.com/compensation/amga_physician_compensation_survey.htm
It claims Orthopedic Surgeons can make about 600k. They still probably work horrible hours but i believe the hourly rate would nonetheless be higher than OMFS.
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Gary "Math is Fun!" Ruska here,
Thanks for providing this data - it would be even more helpful if you provided an assessment of its quality as well.
That aside, we know the following:
1. The median OMFS income, according to your survey site, is $380,000 (note that there were very few OMFS respondents, as indicated by the asterisks in the rows for OMFS, so it may be difficult to estimate the mean income, which can be unequal to the median in small populations).
2. GR disagrees with you that orthopedic surgeons make a median of $600,000. Unless GR can't read (which may be possible on a Friday post-call), it would appear that "Orthopedic Surgeons" make a median income of $476,083 and that spine surgeons and joint replacement surgeons make more. You need to be more specific when making these statements because, spine surgeons and joint replacement surgeons represent a far fewer number of orthopedic surgeons. The number of these surgeons completing the survey seems small too (note the asterisks again).
3. From the ADA surveys, the average OMFS works about 40 hours/week.
What we can surmise and perhaps all agree on:
1. The average orthopedic surgeon works more than the average OMFS.
2. If we accept the numbers above as fact (though there are many good reasons not to), and do a little math:
Ortho median income: $477,000
OMFS median income: $380,000
Ortho makes $97,000 more annually. If orthopedic surgeons worked 40 hours a week (which, GR believes, we can all agree that they do not), then they would make around $50/hr more than OMFS (assuming a 40 hour work week and 48 week work year).
Since you seem to be unashamed of using data of questionable quality, GR will add some data of questionable quality to this analysis:
GR's brother-in-law happens to be a hand surgeon (ortho):
GR: What do you make annually?
GR bro-law: Nice to see you as well, Gary.
GR: Yeah, yeah. So what's your income?
GR BL: I dunno, about $450k.
GR: How many hours a week?
GR BL: Why all the questions, are you thinking of doing hand?
GR: No, no...just some research for an internet messageboard.
GR BL: ...
GR: Anyway...
GR BL: I'd say that I work about 55 - 60 hours/week.
GR: How much do spine surgeons work versus general orthopedists?
GR BL: Those guys have it pretty rough, I'd say at least 60, probably closer to 65-70 or more. General orthopedists that I know work around 50-60.
GR: Thanks
GR BL: So, what are you guys (GR and smoking-hot GR wife) doing for Christmas?
GR: It was lovely talking to you, but GR has to take the trash out now.
So, based on these numbers, it would be reasonable to suggest that general orthopedists work about 25-50% more/week than OMFS. The incomes, if you do the calculations, do follow these hourly numbers, suggesting that, on the whole, the specialties make about the same per hour. Spine make ~600,000, which is, you guessed it, approximately 50% more than OMFS and they work ~50% more (40 hrs vs 60 hours).
Again, this is total crap data, but that doesn't seem to bother most people.
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And thank you for your input. GR thinks that yours is an example of a post that others should try to emulate, as you are stating your belief rather than cold, hard fact.
At the end of the day, GR has said it before and will say it now, it doesn't really matter. Everyone here will do just fine.
But ADA only collects voluntary information among ADA members, just like the way medical, podiatric, etc. associations gather salary info for their own professions.
Like someone mentioned, arguing about average salaries based on surveys is completely worthless. There are probably thousands of salary surveys out there and they all give VERY different salary infos.
And the other issue is personal experience. I'm currently a general dentist. Whether you believe me or not, I'm on track to earn a total of $70,000 for the entire 2009 year. My employers don't offer a cushy clinic environment with dedicated labs and decent patients. My positions are 60hrs/wk total. And there's no 401k, health insurance, paid sick days, etc. I'm being worked to death at clinic and yet I can't meet my employer's quota. As bad as my jobs are, I'm in danger of losing them in a few months. For anyone who is actually working as a dentist ( and not in dental school, residency ), I can assure you that those salary surveys are out of this world.
So why are we arguing as to whether dentists make more than physicians or vice versa? What's the point?
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We pre-dents appreciate you coming to the forum and devoting your time to help us out. If you are going to give references from personal experiences please tell us the entire story. I am not a frequent visitor of the dental forum, yet a quick look at your username reminded me of your posts. Every post you have made on here has been about your difficulties in the profession and how terrible this field is because you are having a hard time establishing yourself.
Here is one of your quotes:
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move
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Exactly! You live in perhaps the MOST SATURATED metropolitan area in the world when it comes to dentists/dental schools. Get yourself out of the area and you will see that those numbers you don't believe are true may be closer to the truth than you think! It's a poll/survey, which means people are coming in all over the spectrum. People in NYC, LA, Philly, etc will likely have a lower average salary than someone in Maine, Montana, Iowa, New Mexico, etc based purely on location. Then add in cost of living and you will certainly see that you are screwing yourself. Move somewhere with lower cost of living and higher earning potential and stop trying to make everyone think that earning a great living as a dentist is impossible!
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This must be the 3432423 post stating this obvious fact 😀
He must love the big apple
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Gary "Attending OMFS" Ruska here,
GR is sorry to hear about your difficulties with practice. GR also agrees that it is, to varying degrees, ludicrous to argue about salary surveys with limited data about the sources of the information. That being said, they are the best we have for dentists in private practice.
Since we've moved onto talking about anecdotal evidence here, GR will share that, as a private practice OMFS, the income projections are right in line with GR's income and slightly undershoot those of the partners in the practice.
When searching for jobs, GR used the ADA numbers for associates 1-4 years out of residency as a guide for assessing starting salaries and was not disappointed.
So, anecdotally speaking, OMFS income surveys are right on track.
~GR
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i came across this when looking for a certain derm thread. this thread is a joke. salary surveys mean nothing unless you find out where they are getting their info from, what types of docs participate, hours worked of each doc giving salary numbers, whether the doc is in private practice or not, etc etc. you honestly think that any doc who makes good money is going to give their true salary, when the public already thinks that docs get reimbursed way too much? hell no dude. My uncle is a derm, he works 60 hours a week, does general dermatology, works is ass off when he is at work though, but makes close to a million a year. very few general dentists would even come close to the compensation of a smart, hard working dermatologist in private practice. If the two fields were even remotely comparable in potential income, everyone would know, and dental schools would be hard as hell to get into. End of story.
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Lead with how we shouldn't trust even the most meticulously constructed salary surveys, finish with a "my uncle" story.
Makes perfect sense...
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Well, I am sorry you have trouble understanding something so simple. I am telling you that you can't make conclusions about who makes more per hour based on these salary surveys. There are just way too many variables that go into them. I gave a "my uncle" story not as "fact" or to say that "because my uncle makes this much, this means I am correct", but to give an example (of which I can give many) on how its far more accurate to get salary info straight from people you know. Don't listen to me or people on these boards w/ regard to how much they or people they know make. Get it out of real, live people you know. Then make your conclusions.
If you still can't understand, thats fine. People like you make the world easier for me to succeed in.
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I think it's comical you think I'm having a hard time understanding, but continue to suggest that microscopic sample sizes (A guy I know) are "far more accurate" than broad based surveys from people in multiple levels of practice. Who are you to judge whether it's more accurate to look at salary surveys or to "Phone a friend?"
Do you know how ridiculous you sound? Why don't you tell us what the real average salary is for dermatologists since, well, you obviously know what no one else can. Also, it would really help us out if you could let us know what it is for dental specialists too, since we obviously don't have your amazing powers of salarial assessment.
Hell, with your revolutionary "some guys I know" technique, you might want to forget about Derm all together and make the big bucks working for the Bureau of Labor and Statistics.
I absolutely agree that salary surveys aren't the end-all-be-all-tell-all either by the way, but asking a handful of randoms isn't going to do you much better. All the information you have at hand plays together.
People like you make the world a little more hilarious for me to live in.
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People like myself have already found out, and dental schools are becoming hard as hell to get into.
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Gary "thankfully not a med student anymore" Ruska here,
This is exactly the type of med student attitude that makes med students not very likeable people. GR assumes that you are one of those med students who always has to answer questions on rounds (even at the expense of showing up your intern) or provide their two cents, because you just can't keep that trap shut (read: candidate for elective IMF).
In response to your well-articulated and not-at-all condescending post:
1. GR believes that GR's post did specify that this salary information was for docs in private practice, specified the number of hours worked and pointed out the flaws with said data.
2. The level of respect you have for your dental colleagues suggests that you are a) incredibly arrogant, b) incredibly ignorant or c) all of the above.
3. GR loved having med students like you when GR was a general surgery resident. If you were GR's med student, you would be on ED rectal exam duty for eternity, just based on your attitude. If a case went to the OR, you'd be Mr. Pannusretractor.
Good luck with your budding career as a dermatologist.
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Can a brother get a little gold bond...?
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My uncle graduated with dds in 2004. He currently owns 2 successful practices and grossed 3 mil previous year. He works his ass off, but still, 3 mill gross isn't bad.
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did he buy those practices, or start them from scratch? 1.5 mil gross/practice in 5 yrs sounds pretty awesome. I got a classmate gunning for something like that. All I can say, party at his place 
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How is he gunning in that nature?did he buy those practices, or start them from scratch? 1.5 mil gross/practice in 5 yrs sounds pretty awesome. I got a classmate gunning for something like that. All I can say, party at his place
Are you heading to academia then?
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- Messages
- 849
- Reaction score
- 374
medicine is a vast ocean and dentistry is just its drop why r u trying to defeat medicinedental specialties
this is one of the stupidest things i have ever read. Great use of meanies though.
- Joined
- Dec 8, 2008
- Messages
- 398
- Reaction score
- 3
And for a second I thought he was from Canada.
