Penn dental grads doing omfs

[alexissanchezatarsenal]

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Hi all,

I'm a predent and want to do omfs. I was recently accepted to penn and columbia and I know columbia is the school better catered for this but I don't really like the area along with the living expenses associated with nyc. On the other hand, after touring penn I liked the campus and the average rent is about 600$/month cheaper. I was wondering if there are any penn students/grads who have taken the cbse and/or matched into omfs who might be able to speak to whether or not it is a wise decision to choose upenn over columbia. As a side note, I was only accepted to these two schools. As much as I would have loved to attend a cheap state school that unfortunately is not an option for me. Thank you guys in advance!

 

[Big Time Hoosier]

As a side note, I was only accepted to these two schools. As much as I would have loved to attend a cheap state school that unfortunately is not an option for me.

Big Hoss

 

[JacquesVallee]

What is your game plan if you decide not to do OMFS?

 

[alexissanchezatarsenal]

What is your game plan if you decide not to do OMFS?

I’m pretty certain I want to do omfs and I understand that it’s a huge commitment and grind. That being said if I do decide to change my mind I would probably still pursue a specialty (perio? Anesthesiology maybe?) because imo it doesn’t make sense to be in such tremendous debt to be a gp. Not saying I wouldn’t enjoy being a gp bc I definitely would. Just not the best financial decision imo.

 

[Big Time Hoosier]

I’m pretty certain I want to do omfs and I understand that it’s a huge commitment and grind. That being said if I do decide to change my mind I would probably still pursue a specialty (perio? Anesthesiology maybe?) because imo it doesn’t make sense to be in such tremendous debt to be a gp. Not saying I wouldn’t enjoy being a gp bc I definitely would. Just not the best financial decision imo.

Some residencies can easily add $200,000 to $300,000 (or even more) onto your student loan tab. The grass isn’t always greener…

Big Hoss

 

[alexissanchezatarsenal]

Some residencies can easily add $200,000 to $300,000 (or even more) onto your student loan tab. The grass isn’t always greener…

View attachment 399552

Big Hoss

I know ortho residences are expensive but from what I understand (I may be wrong on this) most anesthesia and omfs residents don’t pay tuition and get stipends (although it’s usually just to cover living costs). I’m definitely not interested in taking on more debt after school.

 

[Big Time Hoosier]

I’m definitely not interested in taking on more debt after school.

Then you can cross perio, endo, ortho, and pros off your list. And with 6 year OMFS programs, you may have 2 years of med school tuition to deal with.

Big Hoss

 

[JacquesVallee]

I’m pretty certain I want to do omfs and I understand that it’s a huge commitment and grind. That being said if I do decide to change my mind I would probably still pursue a specialty (perio? Anesthesiology maybe?) because imo it doesn’t make sense to be in such tremendous debt to be a gp. Not saying I wouldn’t enjoy being a gp bc I definitely would. Just not the best financial decision imo.

Are you prepared to graduate with >600k compounding at 6% was really my question. If you specialize you're looking at 3 more years of compound interest which can easily put you at 800k. If you add in tuition you could be looking at 1 million dollars. Tbh, I just don't think the gamble is worth it.

 

[Big Time Hoosier]

Are you prepared to graduate with >600k compounding at 6% was really my question. If you specialize you're looking at 3 more years of compound interest which can easily put you at 800k. If you add in tuition you could be looking at 1 million dollars. Tbh, I just don't think the gamble is worth it.

That interest rate is going to be more like 8-9%…

Big Hoss

 

[JacquesVallee]

That interest rate is going to be more like 8-9%…

Big Hoss

You're right! I was thinking of my interest rate when I was in dental school. It's 9.08% on grad plus loans now.

 

[Big Time Hoosier]

You're right! I was thinking of my interest rate when I was in dental school. It's 9.08% on grad plus loans now.

Big Hoss

 

[toothnumber32]

Hi all,

I'm a predent and want to do omfs. I was recently accepted to penn and columbia and I know columbia is the school better catered for this but I don't really like the area along with the living expenses associated with nyc. On the other hand, after touring penn I liked the campus and the average rent is about 600$/month cheaper. I was wondering if there are any penn students/grads who have taken the cbse and/or matched into omfs who might be able to speak to whether or not it is a wise decision to choose upenn over columbia. As a side note, I was only accepted to these two schools. As much as I would have loved to attend a cheap state school that unfortunately is not an option for me. Thank you guys in advance!

You’re in a perfect position to go for omfs.
Ivy League schools have an excellent reputation for matching students into omfs residency.

Don’t listen to all the naysayers lol.
I’ve been through it and I’ve been in practice for a decade.

The loans is a concern when your a resident but one day you will graduate and the loans will not be an issue.

Try to match into a four year program if finances is a major concern of yours. But either omfs program… your loans won’t be a problem.

I remember one day I came home from work and my wife told me she wired money from my account and paid off my student loans from dental school. Really it wasn’t that big of a deal. Life goes on.

 

[Big Time Hoosier]

You’re in a perfect position to go for omfs.
Ivy League schools have an excellent reputation for matching students into omfs residency.

Don’t listen to all the naysayers lol.
I’ve been through it and I’ve been in practice for a decade.

The loans is a concern when your a resident but one day you will graduate and the loans will not be an issue.

Try to match into a four year program if finances is a major concern of yours. But either omfs program… your loans won’t be a problem.

I remember one day I came home from work and my wife told me she wired money from my account and paid off my student loans from dental school. Really it wasn’t that big of a deal. Life goes on.

As long as the OP actually ends up applying to OMFS and they are in the 50-60% that Match, they can “make the math work.” If this doesn’t happen…

Big Hoss

 

[JacquesVallee]

You’re in a perfect position to go for omfs.
Ivy League schools have an excellent reputation for matching students into omfs residency.

Don’t listen to all the naysayers lol.
I’ve been through it and I’ve been in practice for a decade.

The loans is a concern when your a resident but one day you will graduate and the loans will not be an issue.

Try to match into a four year program if finances is a major concern of yours. But either omfs program… your loans won’t be a problem.

I remember one day I came home from work and my wife told me she wired money from my account and paid off my student loans from dental school. Really it wasn’t that big of a deal. Life goes on.

I'm sure OP is smart enough and driven enough to get OMFS if they want. The bigger concern is whether or not they'll still want to do it. They'd be gambling their entire financial future on it and they'd be closing out other specialties like Ortho since they'd likely have to pay tuition for that residency. It's hard to know to go 100% in on a specialty before you've even started dental school.

 

[alexissanchezatarsenal]

I'm sure OP is smart enough and driven enough to get OMFS if they want. The bigger concern is whether or not they'll still want to do it. They'd be gambling their entire financial future on it and they'd be closing out other specialties like Ortho since they'd likely have to pay tuition for that residency. It's hard to know to go 100% in on a specialty before you've even started dental school.

I definitely understand where you are coming from but I’m not really sure what the alternative would be? A different career path? Applying another cycle? I’m really hesitant to do the latter option because I had damn near 100th percentile stats (27AA, 4.0 GPA) and I only got into the two ivies. I applied to 12 schools including umich (my state school) and I didn’t even get an interview from them. I understand that “stats aren’t everything” but I truly think that if my application itself was that bad I wouldn’t have got into those schools in the first place. I’m also on the waitlist at Ohio state which would be my top choice if accepted (for financial reasons)but If I don’t take one of these two acceptances to me it seems like an even bigger gamble.

 

[Anonamoose]

Getting weeded out of state schools and forced into only ivies is brutal lol

 

[alexissanchezatarsenal]

Getting weeded out of state schools and forced into only ivies is brutal lol

I know lol, it’s almost like I’m being punished for having good stats. I never believed in yield protection untill now!

 

[JacquesVallee]

I definitely understand where you are coming from but I’m not really sure what the alternative would be? A different career path? Applying another cycle? I’m really hesitant to do the latter option because I had damn near 100th percentile stats (27AA, 4.0 GPA) and I only got into the two ivies. I applied to 12 schools including umich (my state school) and I didn’t even get an interview from them. I understand that “stats aren’t everything” but I truly think that if my application itself was that bad I wouldn’t have got into those schools in the first place. I’m also on the waitlist at Ohio state which would be my top choice if accepted (for financial reasons)but If I don’t take one of these two acceptances to me it seems like an even bigger gamble.

I mean if it were me, the gamble is way too big to go to one of the ivies. I think they're bordering on 600-700k now in cost. Even with OMFS, a 6 year program will run you over a million dollars after interest and med school tuition. If you don't do OMFS, you are wrecked financially. You will have to go on government loan forgiveness for 25 years. I would honestly probably pick another career or try to get HPSP.

 

[Condylotomy]

If you go to Columbia you will match to OMFS. They have close to a 100% match rate each year for people who decide OMFS before late D3 year. The people who decide late and do a noncat will probably match after that.

Unless you are completely socially inept you will match somewhere. It’s only a matter if you actually like the specialty so you gotta figure that out.

UPenn I hear is much harder. I’ve heard of people struggling to match OMFS from there whereas I haven’t heard that about anyone from Columbia having that issue

 

[toothnumber32]

Even with OMFS, a 6 year program will run you over a million dollars after interest and med school tuition.

Everyone is different.
If I were him I’d go to Columbia, work hard, and apply only to four year programs. Then he’d only get into a four year programs. You don’t have to do a six year program. Plenty of four year spots in the country. The majority of programs and spots are four year. They take residents straight from dental school. I’m living proof lol.

 

[JacquesVallee]

Everyone is different.
If I were him I’d go to Columbia, work hard, and apply only to four year programs. Then he’d only get into a four year programs. You don’t have to do a six year program. Plenty of four year spots in the country. The majority of programs and spots are four year. They take residents straight from dental school. I’m living proof lol.

Some people don't realize they don't want to do OMFS until dental school. A friend of mine changed his mind after externing and he was set on OMFS from day one.

 

[toothnumber32]

Some people don't realize they don't want to do OMFS until dental school. A friend of mine changed his mind after externing and he was set on OMFS from day one.

I understand what you’re saying. But the majority of cases it’s the other way around. They want to do it, but find out they can’t due to academic performance and a non competitive application etc.

 

[D1Bound]

Stepping foot into dental school betting on becoming an OMS 8-10 years later. That is something.

 

[The Kube of Kubes]

Stepping foot into dental school betting on becoming an OMS 8-10 years later. That is something.

Plenty people do it.

 

[alexissanchezatarsenal]

Stepping foot into dental school betting on becoming an OMS 8-10 years later. That is something.

I’m not trying to confine myself to just omfs but I’m honestly interested in the medical side of dentistry so I’m leaning towards omfs or DA. That being said, I do also really like general dentistry and would be happy to be a gp. With both my options it’s looking like I’ll probably have to do a gpr/aegd either way (Columbia and Penn both have mid clinical experience for students) so I want to keep specializing open. I could turn to an alternative career but I honestly enjoy dentistry/healthcare and I don’t really know another alternative with a similar earning potential.

 

[JacquesVallee]

I do also really like general dentistry and would be happy to be a gp.

You would not be happy as a GP with 600k+ of student loan debt.

 

[toothnumber32]

You would not be happy as a GP with 600k+ of student loan debt.

This is true. I wouldn’t recommend anyone do dentistry for that price tag if they are not wanting to specialize or is unable to specialize.

 

[Beckwith Wiedemann]

As an OMFS resident I can shed some light - I went to one of the "OMFS-pumping" schools.

I would say if you are only admitted to only Columbia and Penn, then I would pick Columbia. Penn is becoming much harder to match straight into OMFS - the days of being able to half-ass labs/clinics are gone and everything is graded - it will make your journey much more stressful and less time to study for the CBSE. I heard Penn also has night clinics which I don't know of any other dental school that does it - seems like a scheme for school to pump out more money while using students as slaves. There have been lawsuits over the current Dean at Penn for bunch of administrative issues and sexual scandals that you can find on reddit and seems like the administration is very unpopular compared to Columbia or Harvard. At Columbia or Harvard, you only need to focus on the CBSE, and with the integrated curriculum, it definitely will help. The clinical requirements at Columbia or Harvard are way less than at Penn - it really won't matter how many you do as a dental student because at the end you are just making more $ for school lol. As someone currently studying for step 2, all of the medical knowledge accumulates from day 1 and the questions (step 1->2->3) become harder so having early exposure to medicine is extremely helpful (given dental school cost is not vastly different - which appears to be your case).

All programs are competitive, 4 or 6, and you should apply broadly.

 

[schmoob]

This is true. I wouldn’t recommend anyone do dentistry for that price tag if they are not wanting to specialize or is unable to specialize.

Dentistry is not all about specializing. You can make some good money as a GP. I do most 3rd molar extractions and most implants. With implants I do both the surgical and the restorative. You can restore a single unit implant with your feet. Overdenture conversion is straightforward too.

The beauty of being a GP is you start earlier and you don’t have to do any procedure you don’t want to. Unless it’s a Class II, those always suck.

 

[Big Time Hoosier]

How sad is it that we are discussing that financially it only makes sense to attend certain schools if you become an oral surgeon. Any predents see a problem here? You need to stop applying to these predatory schools. That is the only way this bubble stops inflating and pops.

Big Hoss

 

[schmoob]

How sad is it that we are discussing that financially it only makes sense to attend certain schools if you become an oral surgeon. Any predents see a problem here? You need to stop applying to these predatory schools. That is the only way this bubble stops inflating and pops.

View attachment 399964

Big Hoss

Yep! If you want to be a surgeon so bad, go to med school and there are many more surgical specialties you can apply to. Paid residency.

 

[toothnumber32]

Dentistry is not all about specializing. You can make some good money as a GP. I do most 3rd molar extractions and most implants. With implants I do both the surgical and the restorative. You can restore a single unit implant with your feet. Overdenture conversion is straightforward too.

The beauty of being a GP is you start earlier and you don’t have to do any procedure you don’t want to. Unless it’s a Class II, those always suck.

Agreed easy surgical cases are possible for GPs to perform.

The reality is that the majority of dentists don’t feel comfortable doing what you just said.

On top of that the debt load is extremely high from dental schools these days. they have to do more CE to perform implant surgery and wisdom teeth removal and dare I say weekend sedation courses run by dentists. Do you think this is ideal ?

My question is - how are you charging to do these procedures to make it worthwhile ?
Insurance pays GPs significantly lower than an oral surgeon to perform say wisdom teeth extractions.

 

[JacquesVallee]

How sad is it that we are discussing that financially it only makes sense to attend certain schools if you become an oral surgeon. Any predents see a problem here? You need to stop applying to these predatory schools. That is the only way this bubble stops inflating and pops.

View attachment 399964

Big Hoss

Once these schools cost one million dollars for all four years people won't even be able to justify doing OMFS to attend these programs. Heck, after years of OMFS residency with interest the total loan total now is getting close to one million dollars for four year programs and over one million dollars for 6 year programs.

 

[schmoob]

Agreed easy surgical cases are possible for GPs to perform.

The reality is that the majority of dentists don’t feel comfortable doing what you just said.

On top of that the debt load is extremely high from dental schools these days. they have to do more CE to perform implant surgery and wisdom teeth removal and dare I say weekend sedation courses run by dentists. Do you think this is ideal ?

My question is - how are you charging to do these procedures to make it worthwhile ?
Insurance pays GPs significantly lower than an oral surgeon to perform say wisdom teeth extractions.

Yes I did do CE courses for implants and thirds. I have not done any sedation courses and do not intend to, the weeklong courses are not enough training to safely sedate IMO.

The easier and quicker cases is where the money is at. I was taught this by a successful implant heavy prosth. When you calculate revenue per hour that’s when you get a feel for how much you make. Kind of like peds which is heavy volume based.

 

[toothnumber32]

Yes I did do CE courses for implants and thirds. I have not done any sedation courses and do not intend to, the weeklong courses are not enough training to safely sedate IMO.

The easier and quicker cases is where the money is at. I was taught this by a successful implant heavy prosth. When you calculate revenue per hour that’s when you get a feel for how much you make. Kind of like peds which is heavy volume based.

You said you remove wisdom teeth.

Are we talking full bonies on teenagers? Erupted thirds on adults, impacted thirds on adults ?

Are you doing these under local ?
What are you charging them ?

I’m just really curious to know. I’m not judging you in any way.

 

[schmoob]

You said you remove wisdom teeth.

Are we talking full bonies on teenagers? Erupted thirds on adults, impacted thirds on adults ?

Are you doing these under local ?
What are you charging them ?

I’m just really curious to know. I’m not judging you in any way.

No worries mate.

I do erupteds on most cases if there is no room for them in the arch, not in occlusion, or indications of pericoronitis or Perio. I’ll do most PBI unless there is distoangulation, nerve proximity etc. I do an occasional FBI. The rest I will refer out to OMFS as they are better equipped to perform those procedures. All local anesthesia, no IV sedation/ga.

As far as how much they are being charged I honestly don’t know. I work at an FQHC and am salaried. Some PPO, lots of Medicaid (with pretty good reimbursements, higher than some PPOs), and for the uninsured we use a sliding fee scale based on income.

Because i am at an FQHC I try to keep the cases I can do in house because if I refer out, most OMFS in the area won’t accept Medicaid/ or cannot afford their fees. So they end up not getting it done.

 

[omfsing]

Hi all,

I'm a predent and want to do omfs. I was recently accepted to penn and columbia and I know columbia is the school better catered for this but I don't really like the area along with the living expenses associated with nyc. On the other hand, after touring penn I liked the campus and the average rent is about 600$/month cheaper. I was wondering if there are any penn students/grads who have taken the cbse and/or matched into omfs who might be able to speak to whether or not it is a wise decision to choose upenn over columbia. As a side note, I was only accepted to these two schools. As much as I would have loved to attend a cheap state school that unfortunately is not an option for me. Thank you guys in advance!

As an OMFS who has colleagues who went to both Penn and Columbia, they both highly match into specialities.

Out of the two, chose whichever is cheaper and/or the P/F grading option.

You’ll be fine.

OMFS is very worth it. Best decision I’ve ever made. Don’t worry about the debt, you’ll be fine.

Just don’t tell everyone from day one you want to specialize and do OMFS. Don’t need that bad juju during your four years of dental school.

 

[D1Bound]

As an OMFS who has colleagues who went to both Penn and Columbia, they both highly match into specialities.

Out of the two, chose whichever is cheaper and/or the P/F grading option.

You’ll be fine.

OMFS is very worth it. Best decision I’ve ever made. Don’t worry about the debt, you’ll be fine.

Just don’t tell everyone from day one you want to specialize and do OMFS. Don’t need that bad juju during your four years of dental school.

Listen to that last bit of advice lol

 

[JacquesVallee]

OMFS is very worth it. Best decision I’ve ever made. Don’t worry about the debt, you’ll be fine.

Is there a debt limit where OMFS does not become worth it? Like would you go over one million dollars in debt for it?

 

[toothnumber32]

Is there a debt limit where OMFS does not become worth it? Like would you go over one million dollars in debt for it?

Yes I do know of oral surgeons who had over 1 M in student loans.

One guy in particular went to a private undergrad, very expensive dental school, and then went to a 6 year program. He couldn’t moonlight because he matched to a program where he didn’t take the NERB exam.

Bottom line is - from a financial perspective it’s still worth it.

But you need to love omfs in order to do it. It’s too brutal if you are not truly passionate about it.

I’ve said it many times during my training and I’m sure others have as well… no amount of money is worth it to go through the training.

It can be also be pretty inexpensive… if you go to a four year program which pays you throughout, and don’t have to pay for med school etc. you also get out in a reasonable time period (4 years).

 

[D1Bound]

Yes I do know of oral surgeons who had over 1 M in student loans.

One guy in particular went to a private undergrad, very expensive dental school, and then went to a 6 year program. He couldn’t moonlight because he matched to a program where he didn’t take the NERB exam.

Bottom line is - from a financial perspective it’s still worth it.

But you need to love omfs in order to do it. It’s too brutal if you are not truly passionate about it.

I’ve said it many times during my training and I’m sure others have as well… no amount of money is worth it to go through the training.

It can be also be pretty inexpensive… if you go to a four year program which pays you throughout, and don’t have to pay for med school etc. you also get out in a reasonable time period (4 years).

If you grow up seeing financial insecurity you approach OMS residency much differently. At least, I speak for myself.

 

[702]

If you grow up seeing financial insecurity you approach OMS residency much differently. At least, I speak for myself.

How do you approach it

 

[White_Sponge_Nevus]

I think what is tough about giving advice to people on these forums is that everyone who is currently a practicing dentist/specialist had to set their mind to accomplishing that goal prior to 2020. Life decision was made during a different era.

Cost of living, societal priorities, student loans, interest rates, staffing challenges etc make the world a VERY different place now than it was 6-7 years ago.

I plan on doing a pretty in depth post as to whether or not I thought it was worth it going to residency when I'm 1-2 years out. I don't have the proper perspective as someone currently in residency to give much advice

 

[D1Bound]

How do you approach it

Money and cool factor

 

[capsoak]

How sad is it that we are discussing that financially it only makes sense to attend certain schools if you become an oral surgeon. Any predents see a problem here? You need to stop applying to these predatory schools. That is the only way this bubble stops inflating and pops.

View attachment 399964

Big Hoss

as a pre-dent im betting my whole career on OS we'll see how it goes. if i fail i fail, but i gotta ball out one time in my life.

 

[JacquesVallee]

as a pre-dent im betting my whole career on OS we'll see how it goes. if i fail i fail, but i gotta ball out one time in my life.

If you go to dental school, I sincerely hope you end up liking OMFS and matching. With that said, be weary that your decision is hinging on you actually liking doing surgery and willingness to endure residency. You'd be amazed at how little you actually know beforehand. I dental assisted for an OMFS before dental school and thought I'd really like it. Once I got to dental school, I found out I had no desire to do OMFS- while maintaining a high class rank- and was surprised to find I like other areas of dentistry better. A friend of mine who is currently at a top program was incredibly close to not applying because he was burned out. I know two people who decided not to apply after externing. I even know someone who dropped out of OMFS residency after one year. Remember, you haven't actually done any procedures yet. You're taking a huge gamble if dental school means 300k+ in loans.

 

[capsoak]

If you go to dental school, I sincerely hope you end up liking OMFS and matching. With that said, be weary that your decision is hinging on you actually liking doing surgery and willingness to endure residency. You'd be amazed at how little you actually know beforehand. I dental assisted for an OMFS before dental school and thought I'd really like it. Once I got to dental school, I found out I had no desire to do OMFS- while maintaining a high class rank- and was surprised to find I like other areas of dentistry better. A friend of mine who is currently at a top program was incredibly close to not applying because he was burned out. I know two people who decided not to apply after externing. I even know someone who dropped out of OMFS residency after one year. Remember, you haven't actually done any procedures yet. You're taking a huge gamble if dental school means 300k+ in loans.

I know the stakes. I feel like im going to the casino and putting my life on black, but I have a game plan for this. Fortunately, my undergrad was cheap, and my DAT score "statistically" is more than enough to get me into my state school, which is p good. But, with that being said, it'll be a long grind for sure.

 

[schmoob]

I know the stakes. I feel like im going to the casino and putting my life on black, but I have a game plan for this. Fortunately, my undergrad was cheap, and my DAT score "statistically" is more than enough to get me into my state school, which is p good. But, with that being said, it'll be a long grind for sure.

The above advice cannot be stressed enough. You’re not betting on black because that would indicate you have a 50/50 shot at getting into residency. You’re betting on a number. If you don’t get in are you going to be okay being a general dentist?

You’re making a smart choice by trying to get into the cheapest school. However I would not bank on going to dental school to become an OS. While I have seen it done it’s not the norm. You may not have the grades for it or you may not score high enough on the CBSE. Remember, you’re a high performing student but in dental school everyone is a high performer. You may need to do a noncat year.

If you choose this path it’s going to be a long and difficult one. I wish you lots of luck.

 

[spazway]

If you think you’d be unhappy as a GP dentist, don’t go to dental school. I understand why some people are so interested in oral surgery and not general practice and obviously the world needs oral surgeons. However, you can’t know how well you will do in dental school. Perio is a very interesting dental surgical specialty as well.


My general advice to someone who wants to do oral surgery before having become a dentist is actually to strongly consider medical school and explore the many surgical/adjacent specialties available to medical doctors, like ENT, neuro, interventional rads, interventional pain, anesthesia, ophthalmology, ortho. etc…