Dentist Income Survey: ADA 2002

[Dr. Pedo]

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I came across this information on the ADA website:
http://www.ada.org/ada/prod/survey/publications_newreports.asp#income
There is always a lot of interest and questions regarding income----sometimes inflated and inaccurate. Besides the satisfaction of helping others it appears we'll be able to pay back our school debt and still have some left-over to live. 😀

2002 Survey by ADA: average incomes in the US on a 36hr work week.

1. Oral Surgeons: $336,000

2. Endodontist: $303,900

3. Pediatric Dentists: $294,430

4. Orthodontist: $279,440

5. Periodontist: $216,430

6. Prosthodontist: $190,970

7. General: $173,140

 

[Fulcrum_or_FAIL]

I came across this information on the ADA website:
http://www.ada.org/ada/prod/survey/publications_newreports.asp#income
There is always a lot of interest and questions regarding income----sometimes inflated and inaccurate. Besides the satisfaction of helping others it appears we'll be able to pay back our school debt and still have some left-over to live. 😀

2002 Survey by ADA: average incomes in the US on a 36hr work week.

1. Oral Surgeons: $336,000

2. Endodontist: $303,900

3. Pediatric Dentists: $294,430

4. Orthodontist: $279,440

5. Periodontist: $216,430

6. Prosthodontist: $190,970

7. General: $173,140

Holy crud!! 😱 Pedo makes that much huh? I always thought it was at the lower end of the specialty spectrum.

 

[ibo man]

Holy crud!! 😱 Pedo makes that much huh? I always thought it was at the lower end of the specialty spectrum.

Not a lot of people wants to deal with kids.

 

[dc-10]

I came across this information on the ADA website:
http://www.ada.org/ada/prod/survey/publications_newreports.asp#income
There is always a lot of interest and questions regarding income----sometimes inflated and inaccurate. Besides the satisfaction of helping others it appears we'll be able to pay back our school debt and still have some left-over to live. 😀

2002 Survey by ADA: average incomes in the US on a 36hr work week.

1. Oral Surgeons: $336,000

2. Endodontist: $303,900

3. Pediatric Dentists: $294,430

4. Orthodontist: $279,440

5. Periodontist: $216,430

6. Prosthodontist: $190,970

7. General: $173,140

Everybody always talks about endos making so much. The make less than OS and barely more than Pedo or Ortho. What's up with that?

 

[zidanereal2003]

Everybody always talks about endos making so much. The make less than OS and barely more than Pedo or Ortho. What's up with that?

Well, I don't trust any of these numbers anyway...

 

[JavadiCavity]

Everybody always talks about endos making so much. The make less than OS and barely more than Pedo or Ortho. What's up with that?

It's the average and averages don't mean too much. It's enough that the average is the second highest, which means that endo is raking in the dough.

 

[CJMPre-Med]

Not for nothing (I happen to think that based on the above #'s, dentists are paid what they're worth, whereas MD's are not by a longshot), but it's a joke that a pediatric dentist makes more than twice what a pediatrician makes. This country's values are all screwed up.

 

[12YearOldKid]

Not for nothing (I happen to think that based on the above #'s, dentists are paid what they're worth, whereas MD's are not by a longshot), but it's a joke that a pediatric dentist makes more than twice what a pediatrician makes. This country's values are all screwed up.

Those grapes sour enough for ya', CJM?

 

[airvent]

Not for nothing (I happen to think that based on the above #'s, dentists are paid what they're worth, whereas MD's are not by a longshot), but it's a joke that a pediatric dentist makes more than twice what a pediatrician makes. This country's values are all screwed up.

Well I think Dentist make more becasue the perform "surgical" procedures daily where as most MDs peek in your ear and down your throat then prescribe antibiotics. If MDs were mending or performing a procedure of some sort...mending a 7 broken arms a day or lancing boils they would probably make more on average. They may have a few more years of training but a lot of what they learn will be superfluous to whatever field they choose.

I disagree with your pediatricain comment. Why should they make more?

I'm not disrespecting any profession. The tone of the above post is not meant to be offensive in anyway.

 

[aphistis]

Those grapes sour enough for ya', CJM?

👍

 

[CJMPre-Med]

I disagree with your pediatricain comment. Why should they make more?

You're kidding, right? I mean, no offense-- I respect what dentists do and all, as well as their expertise, but let's be realistic.

I suppose that's asking a bit much on the dental forum, though, given the biases.

Those grapes sour enough for ya', CJM?

No sour grapes on this end. I just think that physicians are woefully underpaid. Notice that nowhere did I state or imply that dentists are OVERpaid, because I happen to feel that they are paid properly for their expertise and value (as I stated in my post). I find it amusing that there are people who just don't give a **** (or don't see anything wrong with the fact) that even general dentists make more than 50% of physicians, or that a pediatric dentist makes more than twice what the average pediatrician does.


That's not justice imo. No sour grapes, though. "Sour grapes" would imply that I believe dentists are being overpaid; I do not. Just as if dentists were making only $70K per year I'd speak out against it, so will I open my mouth when I feel that physicians are getting the shaft, as they currently are. Understand?


EDIT: Note also that if pediatric dentists were earning their $294K and pediatricians were earning ~$260K or so (instead of an average of $138K as they currently do), you'd hear nary a peep out of me; in fact, even if you disagree that a pediatrician should make more than a pediatric dentist (or a dentist in general), then at least be willing to admit that there's little excuse for them to make over twice as much. I mean, come on now. Again, this is not to imply that dental salaries should be cut, but rather that physician salaries should rise to meet their expertise and value, which their current compensation in no way reflects.

 

[DcS]

Not for nothing (I happen to think that based on the above #'s, dentists are paid what they're worth, whereas MD's are not by a longshot), but it's a joke that a pediatric dentist makes more than twice what a pediatrician makes. This country's values are all screwed up.

The discrepancy in salaries between a pedodontist and a pediatrician has NOTHING to do with the values of this country. It has to do with the fact that dentistry has been able to keep managed care to a limited role in the profession because of the strength of the ADA. The same cannot be said for the AMA and their counterparts. That is the reason for the disparity.

 

[ncalcate]

That's not justice imo. No sour grapes, though. "Sour grapes" would imply that I believe dentists are being overpaid; I do not. Just as if dentists were making only $70K per year I'd speak out against it, so will I open my mouth when I feel that physicians are getting the shaft, as they currently are. Understand?

I agree with you 100% that physicians are getting the shaft. When you consider the extra training involved (at least a 4 year residency, but upwards of 6+ for other specialties + fellowships), physicians should be making more than dentists.

This is one of the reasons why many talented students are choosing dentistry over medicine. There is a stereotype out there (and one that is perpetuated on the pre-allo forum) that people only go to dental school when they can't get into medical school. This is bogus. I, as well as many of my classmates, had the grades and intelligence to go to med school. But looking at the pay and lifestyle, it just wasn't worth it.

In the long run, I hope for all of us that physician's salaries go up to a level where they are fairly compensated. But at this rate, some of the best and brightest students may be avoiding medicine. And that could hurt the quality of health care for all of us in the future.

 

[frogger33]

I agree that doctors are WAY UNDER-PAID now days. And yes, I have great fear that the healthcare system will try and find a way into dentistry as it did into medicine. The general public is just now sarting to realize how much money dentists do make, and it scares me.....

Doctors should be paid more than they currently are, but not too long ago they made double-triple what they do now. For example, my boyfriend is in medical school and works with a heart surgeon that used to make ~$500k, and now he is lucky if he breaks 200K. (of course this is in Fl where malpractice costs suck. What a shame if you ask me.

Something should be done about this, and God I hope the same thing does not happen to dentistry in 10-12 years!!

 

[CJMPre-Med]

The discrepancy in salaries between a pedodontist and a pediatrician has NOTHING to do with the values of this country. It has to do with the fact that dentistry has been able to keep managed care to a limited role in the profession because of the strength of the ADA. The same cannot be said for the AMA and their counterparts. That is the reason for the disparity.

Oh, you're absolutely right about the major reason for the disparity in pay. But to say that the values of the populace-- a populace which has allowed its physicians to become drastically underpaid and has eroded the standards of medicine in myriad ways-- have nothing to do with it is a bit of a stretch.


Point being: In a just society, physicians would be paid more, as would many other jobs/professions (and many would be paid less- not dentistry based on the numbers I see above, however). This has everything to do with the values of the society imo, when we look at the big picture. It shows you that everybody is very self-interested and not at all concerned with the legitimate grievances or plight of others. Look at this very thread for evidence, where you have people trying to justify the fact that a pediatric dentist makes twice as much as a pediatrician. Rather than be content with dental salaries and what they have, they are wholly unconcerned with the fact that their medical peers are woefully underpaid. This is foolish imo, and not just when dentists do it, but in general. I personally have a dim view of people who cannot see past their own situation to appreciate the struggles of others. Like I said, if dentists were making $70K, I'd speak out against it rather than derisively saying "why do you think they should make more?" as I collect my fat paycheck, because it's just common sense that they should be making more than $70K, just as it's common sense that a pediatric dentist should not be making twice as much as a pediatrician (whether or not you feel that pediatricians deserve to make more than pediatric dentists). But everyone seems content to just toss out the specious arguments and sit by nice and cozy while they enjoy the well-deserved fruits of their success, while others are not afforded that same luxury.


It's foolish imo.

 

[CJMPre-Med]

ncalcate and frogger33, it's good to see that there are sensible people in the dental field. 👍 🙂

 

[airvent]

Oh, you're absolutely right about the major reason for the disparity in pay. But to say that the values of the populace-- a populace which has allowed its physicians to become drastically underpaid and has eroded the standards of medicine in myriad ways-- have nothing to do with it is a bit of a stretch.


Point being: In a just society, physicians would be paid more, as would many other jobs/professions (and many would be paid less- not dentistry based on the numbers I see above, however). This has everything to do with the values of the society imo, when we look at the big picture. It shows you that everybody is very self-interested and not at all concerned with the legitimate grievances or plight of others. Look at this very thread for evidence, where you have people trying to justify the fact that a pediatric dentist makes twice as much as a pediatrician. Rather than be content with dental salaries and what they have, they are wholly unconcerned with the fact that their medical peers are woefully underpaid. This is foolish imo, and not just when dentists do it, but in general. I personally have a dim view of people who cannot see past their own situation to appreciate the struggles of others. Like I said, if dentists were making $70K, I'd speak out against it rather than derisively saying "why do you think they should make more?" as I collect my fat paycheck, because it's just common sense that they should be making more than $70K, just as it's common sense that a pediatric dentist should not be making twice as much as a pediatrician (whether or not you feel that pediatricians deserve to make more than pediatric dentists). But everyone seems content to just toss out the specious arguments and sit by nice and cozy while they enjoy the well-deserved fruits of their success, while others are not afforded that same luxury.


It's foolish imo.

You never did answer why. Is it simply because they spend more time in training?




and calm down

 

[KY2007]

For the med students out there keep in mind that the dental specialties require more time than 4 years of dental school. For instance oral and maxillofacial surgery is dental school + 4 to 6 years. While general dentists make more than family physicians and some of the dental specialties make more than some of the med specialties, medical specialists on average make more than dental specialists.

 

[USAF_Dentman]

Oh, you're absolutely right about the major reason for the disparity in pay. But to say that the values of the populace-- a populace which has allowed its physicians to become drastically underpaid and has eroded the standards of medicine in myriad ways-- have nothing to do with it is a bit of a stretch.


Point being: In a just society, physicians would be paid more, as would many other jobs/professions (and many would be paid less- not dentistry based on the numbers I see above, however). This has everything to do with the values of the society imo, when we look at the big picture. It shows you that everybody is very self-interested and not at all concerned with the legitimate grievances or plight of others. Look at this very thread for evidence, where you have people trying to justify the fact that a pediatric dentist makes twice as much as a pediatrician. Rather than be content with dental salaries and what they have, they are wholly unconcerned with the fact that their medical peers are woefully underpaid. This is foolish imo, and not just when dentists do it, but in general. I personally have a dim view of people who cannot see past their own situation to appreciate the struggles of others. Like I said, if dentists were making $70K, I'd speak out against it rather than derisively saying "why do you think they should make more?" as I collect my fat paycheck, because it's just common sense that they should be making more than $70K, just as it's common sense that a pediatric dentist should not be making twice as much as a pediatrician (whether or not you feel that pediatricians deserve to make more than pediatric dentists). But everyone seems content to just toss out the specious arguments and sit by nice and cozy while they enjoy the well-deserved fruits of their success, while others are not afforded that same luxury.


It's foolish imo.

I dont think it shows the values of the entire population. I believe it shows the values of LAWYERS and INSURANCE companies. Patients arent to blame, we pay whatever the bill is. I blame ****ty lawyers who realize their law degree is worthless, so they have to sue any doctor to make a dime.

 

[USAF_Dentman]

I agree with you 100% that physicians are getting the shaft. When you consider the extra training involved (at least a 4 year residency, but upwards of 6+ for other specialties + fellowships), physicians should be making more than dentists.

This is one of the reasons why many talented students are choosing dentistry over medicine. There is a stereotype out there (and one that is perpetuated on the pre-allo forum) that people only go to dental school when they can't get into medical school. This is bogus. I, as well as many of my classmates, had the grades and intelligence to go to med school. But looking at the pay and lifestyle, it just wasn't worth it.

In the long run, I hope for all of us that physician's salaries go up to a level where they are fairly compensated. But at this rate, some of the best and brightest students may be avoiding medicine. And that could hurt the quality of health care for all of us in the future.

Finally, someone who knows what he is talking about. I wanted to work somewhere in the medical field, and dentistry fit me incredibly well.

 

[CJMPre-Med]

You never did answer why. Is it simply because they spend more time in training?




and calm down

I'm very calm-- I'm just stating my opinions.


And as soon as you tell me "why" a pediatric dentist deserves to make more than twice what a pediatrician makes (which is the comment of mine that you quoted and responded to), perhaps I'll answer why a physician deserves to make more than (or at the very least, the same as) a dentist.

 

[USAF_Dentman]

I'm very calm-- I'm just stating my opinions.


And as soon as you tell me "why" a pediatric dentist deserves to make more than twice what a pediatrician makes (which is the comment of mine that you quoted and responded to), perhaps I'll answer why a physician deserves to make more than (or at the very least, the same as) a dentist.

A Pediatrician doesnt do procedures, its as easy as that. An office visit is what? $50 or so? maybe a few tests? They just dont do any high cost procedures.

 

[toofache32]

Not a lot of people wants to deal with kids.

I say sedate 'em.

 

[CJMPre-Med]

But that's merely a bias towards tangible work that is specious when examined. Physicians are far from the only people who are (and deserve to be) compensated for mental work/expertise/diagnosis-- lawyers, accountants, financial planners etc. are as well. This "procedure" mentality simply doesn't hold up in the real world when looking at compensation. Further, if a pediatrician actually received $60-$70 per office vist (which is what they typically charge to paying customers), they'd make about the same as a pediatric dentist; the problem is that they typically receive anywhere from $10-35 for these visits from insurance companies/gov't. Overhead is much higher for private practice physicians as well. As another poster noted, it is solely the fact that dentists have managed to avoid the encroachment of managed care that is responsible for their robust incomes as compared with physicians' declining income. Not "procedures", just autonomy.


Besides which, you're stating that "procedures" should be the defining criteria for compensation; so I assume you believe that all surgeons in the US should be earning $400K+? Glad we at least agree on that...


So you're stating that a person does not deserve to be adequately compensated for their expertise, dedication, and value (and the judgments and treatment which flow from that), but rather should be adequately compensated only if they perform procedures (ignoring the fact that physicians do provide tangible results in the form out outcomes and improved health, which totally destroys your theory)? Guess we can just get rid of judges, financial speculators, and theoretical scientists then, right? Moreover, it's pretty simpleminded to assert that manual labor (buttressed by technical expertise, but still manual labor) is the necessary and sufficient quality that makes a dentist earning twice as much as a physician a "just" state of affairs in your world.


Man, people will say anything to convince themselves of their own worth and to devalue the worth of others. 👍


I would hope that all medical students went into a surgical field just to satisfy your specious demands, so that they would at least be entitled to a decent living under your worldview. The lengths you're going to to justify something that's not capable of being justified (a pediatric dentist making more than twice what a pediatrician makes) is ridiculous, and indicative of the sort of warped mentality that has taken hold of the public and contributed to the decline of both physicians' income and autonomy as well as the decline of medical standards and patient satisfaction.


It's a shame.

 

[DcS]

I hate to break it to you, but if you broke it down to the time spent in dental school and a pediatric residency it's not that much less than a pediatrician. Most people in med school and in general do not realize that in dental school we take our classes AND do our "residency" at the same time. Trust me, I've seen what the 1st couple of years of med school are like. They are cushy. Don't get all insulted it's the truth...you guys have to pay your dues after medical school. I have plenty of friends in Duke Med or UNC Med and I know they had half a day of classes for 2 years. Dental students, on the other hand, take a full slate of classes and see patients. 8-5 for 4 years of dental school...fall, spring AND summer. I know a lot of meds who got much more time off than us. Once again, I'm not trying to say med school is easier, but i guarantee if you broke down the time i spent doing didactics and clinics for 4 years of dental school, plus the 2.5 years of residency i will do for a pediatric specialty, it's not substantially less than our medical counterparts.


So....if you made it through that diatribe, i'm trying to say your argument for the crime of the disparity is due to how much more training pediatricians have. Not true.

Like I said once, dentistry will in our time keep managed care out because we have one of the strongest professional groups in America, the ADA, lobbying for us. It has something like 70% membership compared with the AMA which i believe i read to be around 35-40%. You also have to factor in lawsuits etc etc. Hey, I think you guys deserve to make more, but you go into that profession knowing this stuff.

Just my 2c of course.

 

[DcS]

But that's merely a bias towards tangible work that is specious when examined. Physicians are far from the only people who are (and deserve to be) compensated for mental work/expertise/diagnosis-- lawyers, accountants, financial planners etc. are as well. This "procedure" mentality simply doesn't hold up in the real world when looking at compensation.

I think you've lost track of what this discussion was. No one here is trying to justify why pedodontists make more than pediatricians. We (I at least) was trying to enlighten you to realize it has nothing to do with society, at all! It has to do with the progression of both fields in the past century, their liabilities and all of that stuff. IT's got nothing to do with priorities of society that argument is absurd.

 

[DcS]

warped mentality that has taken hold of the public and contributed to the decline of both physicians' income and autonomy as well as the decline of medical standards and patient satisfaction.

.

What in the world does the "warped mentality" of the public have to do with dental incomes or physician incomes. It has to do with the historical development of the fields. Why don't you go research why dentistry has developed into the money maker it has while physicians have been choked of their income. If the AMA had had the solidarity that the ADA did back in the day they could have marked their own trail. Unfortunately most MDs are the type of loners to feel no need to depend on a professional organization to determine their futures. Unfortunately for you they made that mistake in the past and now your profession pays for it.

 

[USAF_Dentman]

So you're stating that a person does not deserve to be adequately compensated for their expertise, dedication, and value (and the judgments and treatment which flow from that), but rather should be adequately compensated only if they perform procedures (ignoring the fact that physicians do provide tangible results in the form out outcomes and improved health, which totally destroys your theory)? Guess we can just get rid of judges, financial speculators, and theoretical scientists then, right? Moreover, it's pretty simpleminded to assert that manual labor (buttressed by technical expertise, but still manual labor) is the necessary and sufficient quality that makes a dentist earning twice as much as a physician a "just" state of affairs in your world.


It's a shame.

So what about Ph.D's profs, they make squat....But the fact is as you have already stated, its the managed care. Its the fact of life for physicians now..

I cant give you the cause or main reason.

Also, BTW, dentists have huge overhead costs, even more than physicians at times..so that isnt a valid argument..

But come on, peds are already making 130,000+ a year, i wouldnt complain. just stay away form this area then..

 

[ku06]

What is really funny is how powerful you think the ADA is. In reality, the reason why medicine has been taken over deals more with people's values. People value medical visits over dental visits historically (To argue this point would be ill informed as many people are only now starting to value their teeth which of course should be valued).

Therefore, this has lead to a MANY powerful groups that have lobbied for goals against the goals of the AMA. Consider this: If you have an entire political party working against you in order to gain votes in a two party system, a PAC or Interest group isn't going to help you. When they have conquered medicine fully, they will then turn upon dentists in order to provide "healthcare for all." When this happens you will see how powerful the ADA is when the Senators and Reps are yelling "FREE DENTAL CARE or DENTAL CARE IS A RIGHT. It is hard to resist change when candidates base their whole campaigns on ruining your profession with the backing of half the population.

The only chance dentistry has is to try and halt the movement before it completely takes over its brother medicine. Instead, dentists rejoice in the fact that the physicians are being slowly picked apart.

These attitudes sicken me. Healthcare professionals that aren't even Fcking competing should be able to band together which would make a truly powerful force. But this will never happen because petty jealousy and egos exist on both sides. In the end, they will separate and destroy the different professionals in the healthcare fields.

 

[toofache32]

Not but it's a joke that a pediatric dentist makes more than twice what a pediatrician makes. This country's values are all screwed up.

I still haven't heard an explanation for this. Is it the time needed for training? Pediatrics and pediatric dentistry are both 3 year residencies. Both require taking call.

The only thing these jobs have in common is that you treat small people. Don't forget...pediatricians are primary care docs, while pediatric dentists are specialists.

 

[ku06]

Also, if you think the government undervalues physicians which are traditionally the most respected job in our society, just think how much they will undervalue dentists becuase of ignorance that has existed, exists, and will exist dealing with dental training.

For example: My father is a rheumatolgist (sp.) and he gives a shot to his patients into their various joints of their body to help with some form of arthritic disease. The shot costs 300 dollars and the government will only pay 200 dollars for it. So in other words everytime he gives this shot to his patients he not only gets receives no money for the "procedure", but he loses a hundred dollars and 20-40 minutes of his time. He gives it to his patients though because he cares for them. The government obviously does not respect his training or they would AT LEAST let him break even on this procedure. I would hate to see what they would do to dentists who fill cavities which is not all that far off from this type of procedure.

End lesson: Physicians and dentists should do more than just get along. They should help each other because they both are at the top of the food chain in healthcare. They hold the influence to change the trends for the better if they would work together. If they don't, eventually ALL of healthcare will be tainted.

 

[LSR1979]

These attitudes sicken me. Healthcare professionals that aren't even Fcking competing should be able to band together which would make a truly powerful force. But this will never happen because petty jealousy and egos exist on both sides. In the end, they will separate and destroy the different professionals in the healthcare fields.

I am a dental student and I agree with this completely. I think the reason that so many of my colleagues are eating this up is because for years we have played second fiddle to MDs and MDs were very quick to make us feel inferior and to degrade our profession as "not real doctors." Now that dentistry, as a profession, has made strides in both income and public perception while medicine has declined financially, some feel inclined to rub it in your faces. It is tempting, but I understand that what has happened in medicine can, although unlikely, occur in dentistry.

Regarding previous posts over who "deserves" more income, the pediatric dentist or pediatrician, well those posts are just ignorant. Does Alex Rodriguez "deserve" $100 million to play a frickin game? NO. But he saw a capitalistic opportunity to earn a sick amount of money doing something he loves. Most millionaries don't "deserve" the amount of money they have - many have no college education. But they saw opportunity and siezed it. So rather than piss and moan about how much dentists and its subsequent specialties are making, maybe you should reconsider your career choice if you are concerned about it. You chose your profession, I chose mine. I'm not complaining. 👍

 

[LSR1979]

Also, if you think the government undervalues physicians which are traditionally the most respected job in our society, just think how much they will undervalue dentists becuase of ignorance that has existed, exists, and will exist dealing with dental training.

What the hell does this mean? What ingorance?

 

[ku06]

What the hell does this mean? What ingorance?

Do a survey of the general population and ask who spends more time in training a physician or dentist. What do you think the majority will say? Obviously, they are not going to say it depends on the case and on the speciality pertaining to each field. In other words, the mass population is ignornat of how much work it takes to be a physician, but even more so of how much it takes to be a dentist.

 

[DcS]

Holy chit this thread was about the disparity b/w a pedodontist and a pediatrician and the rather ignorant argument posted.


Why does everything on this board have to turn into a pissing match b/w meds and dents. Get over yourselves.

 

[GatorDMD]

I am a dental student and I agree with this completely. I think the reason that so many of my colleagues are eating this up is because for years we have played second fiddle to MDs and MDs were very quick to make us feel inferior and to degrade our profession as "not real doctors." Now that dentistry, as a profession, has made strides in both income and public perception while medicine has declined financially, some feel inclined to rub it in your faces. It is tempting, but I understand that what has happened in medicine can, although unlikely, occur in dentistry.

Regarding previous posts over who "deserves" more income, the pediatric dentist or pediatrician, well those posts are just ignorant. Does Alex Rodriguez "deserve" $100 million to play a frickin game? NO. But he saw a capitalistic opportunity to earn a sick amount of money doing something he loves. Most millionaries don't "deserve" the amount of money they have - many have no college education. But they saw opportunity and siezed it. So rather than piss and moan about how much dentists and its subsequent specialties are making, maybe you should reconsider your career choice if you are concerned about it. You chose your profession, I chose mine. I'm not complaining. 👍

A Rod - 10 year/252 million dollars. 😀

 

[3rdMolarRoller]

I heard something very very sad on the train today and you could thank the wall street journal as it was mentioned in the conversation.

There were some lawyers sitting next to me talking about dentist and their salaries...long story short they were thinking of ways to start advertising "have you been a victim of dental malpractice" on a large scale.

All of these articles are giving us exposure we don't need. Just as these two scum bags sitting next to me think of ways to milk our profession.

And I did mention something to them...all the hours I study, all the I have to sacrafice, the debt I will have. But it was to no effect. All I saw was dollar signs in their eyes.

Just be careful and hide your assests properly.

 

[LSR1979]

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I think there is a misconception of importance being directly related to income. Obviously teachers should be paid near the highest but it just isn't so----And think about the fact that someone who can dribble the basketball makes normally 7 figures! Shouldn't all restaurant owners earn the same? Shouldn't all managers earn the same across the nation? My brother has a college education and makes more than I will ever see, is that fair seeing I've spent an additional 6 years after college and have a doctorate degree? Why should a pediatric dentist and a pediatrician earn the same amount? Simply because were in the health profession with a similar title? With that type of worldly view we wouldn't live in a capitalistic society, it would be call socialistic. You aren't simply given the right to an income and your income shouldn't dictate your worth or importance; think drug dealer here. 97% of pediatric dentists and general dentists own their own practice. The risk is huge- more risk more reward----start-up is ~$300,000-$500,000, five year lease, not to mention the $150,000 school debt. They have to be the marketing director, finance manager, bill collector, etc... They employ others---which unless you've been an owner could never imagine the difficulty of 401k set-ups, workman's comp, etc... The point is there are few similarities between the two:

Pediatricians are highly educated, an extremely necessary component of the medical profession, and are a non-surgical specialty. They are highly tuned detectives that must know the body and its workings inside and out in order carry out their jobs. There is some overlap with the general MD as they too are not surgeons and they can and do step on a lot of peds. toes. The services peds. provide are charged based on what a third party is willing to pay and what a person with a Master's degree deems appropriate. They are typically not a business owner with their own employees----they are usually employees, and unfortunately a slave to managed care companies.

Pediatric dentists and all dentists have a Doctor of Dental Surgery degree or equivalent DMD. I use the term surgeon lightly here, (as a believe a cardiothoracic surgeon or neurosugeon are what I think of when I hear surgeon) but a dentist is someone who on a daily basis performs irreversible procedures with high-speed, specialized instruments that in the wrong hands would be chaos. Pediatric dentists are further specialized in an already specialized field to take care of infants, the mentally handicapped, children and young adults! Yes general dentists can and do work on the little ones. But ask any GP and they'll have the referral slip ready when little Jonny acts up or an autistic 22yo combined with mental redardation is brought in. Pediatric dentists are specially trained to deal with those situations. Many times they see their disability patients in the OR with the patient under general. They are performing procedures which are costly on a daily basis and can only be done effciently and effectively by them. A huge market niche. The big money maker is the fact that they are nearly all business owners and not employees. They make money off of their employees like any other business. To compare medicine and dentistry is like apples and oranges both fruits but that's where the similarities end. I wouldn't want to be a MD and I'm positive an MD doesn't care to pick-up a hand-piece and cut a MOD prep on #12! We are both highly educated professionals that provide a service to the public.

In the end, I think we are all paid enough to sustain a good lifestyle. I don't know how you MD/DO's work that many hours but that's a topic for another thread- --- There are more important things in life than the mighty dollar. 😀

GREAT POST - Kind of what I was trying to say earlier, but much more eloquently. 👍

 

[Dr. Pedo]

I think there is a misconception of importance being directly related to income. Obviously teachers should be paid near the highest but it just isn't so----And think about the fact that someone who can dribble the basketball makes normally 7 figures! Shouldn't all restaurant owners earn the same? Shouldn't all managers earn the same across the nation? My brother has a college education and makes more than I will ever see, is that fair seeing I've spent an additional 6 years after college and have a doctorate degree? Why should a pediatric dentist and a pediatrician earn the same amount? Simply because were in the health profession with a similar title? With that type of worldly view we wouldn't live in a capitalistic society, it would be call socialistic. You aren't simply given the right to an income and your income shouldn't dictate your worth or importance; think drug dealer here. 97% of pediatric dentists and general dentists own their own practice. The risk is huge- more risk more reward----start-up is ~$300,000-$500,000, five year lease, not to mention the $150,000 school debt. They have to be the marketing director, finance manager, bill collector, etc... They employ others---which unless you've been an owner could never imagine the difficulty of 401k set-ups, workman's comp, etc... The point is there are few similarities between the two:

Pediatricians are highly educated, an extremely necessary component of the medical profession, and are a non-surgical specialty. They are highly tuned detectives that must know the body and its workings inside and out in order carry out their jobs. There is some overlap with the general MD and they can and do step on a lot of peds. toes. The services peds. provide are charged based on what a third party is willing to pay and what a person with a Master's degree deems appropriate. They are typically not a business owner with their own employees----they are usually employees, and unfortunately a slave to managed care companies.

Pediatric dentists and all dentists have a Doctor of Dental Surgery degree or equivalent DMD. I use the term surgeon lightly here, (as a believe a cardiothoracic surgeon or neurosurgeon are what I think of when I hear surgeon) but a dentist is someone who on a daily basis performs irreversible procedures with high-speed, specialized instruments that in the wrong hands would be chaos. Pediatric dentists are further specialized in an already specialized field to take care of infants, the mentally handicapped, children and young adults! Yes general dentists can and do work on the little ones. But ask any GP and they'll have the referral slip ready when little Jonny acts up or an autistic 22yo combined with mental ******ation is brought in. Pediatric dentists are specially trained to deal with those situations. Many times they see their disability patients in the OR with the patient under general. They are performing procedures which are costly on a daily basis and can only be done effciently and effectively by them. A huge market niche. The big money maker is the fact that they are nearly all business owners and not employees. They make money off of their employees like any other business. To compare medicine and dentistry is like apples and oranges both fruits but that's where the similarities end. I wouldn't want to be a MD and I'm positive an MD doesn't care to pick-up a hand-piece and cut a MOD prep on #12! We are both highly educated professionals that provide a service to the public.

In the end, I think we are all paid enough to sustain a good lifestyle. I don't know how you MD/DO's work that many hours but that's a topic for another thread- --- There are more important things in life than the mighty dollar.
__________________
RRB

 

[KY2007]

Amen.

 

[koobpheej]

it is all about the difference in the ama and the ada. there is a large majority of dentists taht are not only members but are active in the ada. the ama can not say the same about its membership. our society is goverend by a representative government. those representatvies rely on organizations such as the ada and the ama to inform them and (hopefully) aid them in their policy making decsions. the dismal participation of physicians in the ama sends the signal to those policy makers that the organization does not actually represent the profession. for all you liberals, why do you think big business always get so much gov't help (in its different forms), because those businesses have an organized and coordinated effort to attempt to influence policy makers (the ethics of this reality are for another discussion); and different industries are highly united in their efforts, united = more information, resources, etc= more influence.

insurance companies try to scare health care providers into thinking that they will never be able to make a living without siging up for their plans, taking an immediate cut in pay in exchange for volume. can one provide the best for their patience when they have to increase their volume significantly to make up the difference they have lost? i would argue that it can not happen.

the service that physicians and dentists provide is absolutely invaluable, and their compensation should reflect that fact. unfortunately i must conclude that md/do in general have really created their own problem by: 1) not presenting a united front to the nation's policy makers and 2) allowing insurance companies to scare them into dominating their profession.

 

[reLAXgirl]

I don't necessarily agree. I don't know any doctors that seem to be struggling financially. Are we saying they are underpaid because they don't make as much or more than dentists? What constitutes underpaid? What about teachers who are educating our children? They make a mere fraction of what a doctor makes. Or nurses? I guess I have a hard time feeling bad for doctors who are still making more than the millions of people who can hardly get by. Why are we so greedy that $100,000+ annually is such a bad deal? If we base it on the costs of education, there are many PhD's who make significantly less and seem to get by comfortably, despite their high interest loans.

I can't feel bad about doctor's salaries when people are giving their lives in the military, police force, fire fighting, or even when hundreds of thousands of people are starving, ridden with disease, etc (think of the tsunami's). Maybe doctors (and dentists) should be grateful we have the funds to take care of ourselves and hopefully have enough to give back instead of worrying that someone else may make more than us, despite our high degrees!

 

[airvent]

I think there is a misconception of importance being directly related to income. Obviously teachers should be paid near the highest but it just isn't so----And think about the fact that someone who can dribble the basketball makes normally 7 figures! Shouldn't all restaurant owners earn the same? Shouldn't all managers earn the same across the nation? My brother has a college education and makes more than I will ever see, is that fair seeing I've spent an additional 6 years after college and have a doctorate degree? Why should a pediatric dentist and a pediatrician earn the same amount? Simply because were in the health profession with a similar title? With that type of worldly view we wouldn't live in a capitalistic society, it would be call socialistic. You aren't simply given the right to an income and your income shouldn't dictate your worth or importance; think drug dealer here. 97% of pediatric dentists and general dentists own their own practice. The risk is huge- more risk more reward----start-up is ~$300,000-$500,000, five year lease, not to mention the $150,000 school debt. They have to be the marketing director, finance manager, bill collector, etc... They employ others---which unless you've been an owner could never imagine the difficulty of 401k set-ups, workman's comp, etc... The point is there are few similarities between the two:

Pediatricians are highly educated, an extremely necessary component of the medical profession, and are a non-surgical specialty. They are highly tuned detectives that must know the body and its workings inside and out in order carry out their jobs. There is some overlap with the general MD and they can and do step on a lot of peds. toes. The services peds. provide are charged based on what a third party is willing to pay and what a person with a Master's degree deems appropriate. They are typically not a business owner with their own employees----they are usually employees, and unfortunately a slave to managed care companies.

Pediatric dentists and all dentists have a Doctor of Dental Surgery degree or equivalent DMD. I use the term surgeon lightly here, (as a believe a cardiothoracic surgeon or neurosurgeon are what I think of when I hear surgeon) but a dentist is someone who on a daily basis performs irreversible procedures with high-speed, specialized instruments that in the wrong hands would be chaos. Pediatric dentists are further specialized in an already specialized field to take care of infants, the mentally handicapped, children and young adults! Yes general dentists can and do work on the little ones. But ask any GP and they'll have the referral slip ready when little Jonny acts up or an autistic 22yo combined with mental ******ation is brought in. Pediatric dentists are specially trained to deal with those situations. Many times they see their disability patients in the OR with the patient under general. They are performing procedures which are costly on a daily basis and can only be done effciently and effectively by them. A huge market niche. The big money maker is the fact that they are nearly all business owners and not employees. They make money off of their employees like any other business. To compare medicine and dentistry is like apples and oranges both fruits but that's where the similarities end. I wouldn't want to be a MD and I'm positive an MD doesn't care to pick-up a hand-piece and cut a MOD prep on #12! We are both highly educated professionals that provide a service to the public.

In the end, I think we are all paid enough to sustain a good lifestyle. I don't know how you MD/DO's work that many hours but that's a topic for another thread- --- There are more important things in life than the mighty dollar.

👍

I don't necessarily agree. I don't know any doctors that seem to be struggling financially. Are we saying they are underpaid because they don't make as much or more than dentists? What constitutes underpaid? What about teachers who are educating our children? They make a mere fraction of what a doctor makes. Or nurses? I guess I have a hard time feeling bad for doctors who are still making more than the millions of people who can hardly get by. Why are we so greedy that $100,000+ annually is such a bad deal? If we base it on the costs of education, there are many PhD's who make significantly less and seem to get by comfortably, despite their high interest loans.

I can't feel bad about doctor's salaries when people are giving their lives in the military, police force, fire fighting, or even when hundreds of thousands of people are starving, ridden with disease, etc (think of the tsunami's). Maybe doctors (and dentists) should be grateful we have the funds to take care of ourselves and hopefully have enough to give back instead of worrying that someone else may make more than us, despite our high degrees!

👍

 

[LSR1979]

I don't necessarily agree. I don't know any doctors that seem to be struggling financially. Are we saying they are underpaid because they don't make as much or more than dentists? What constitutes underpaid? What about teachers who are educating our children? They make a mere fraction of what a doctor makes. Or nurses? I guess I have a hard time feeling bad for doctors who are still making more than the millions of people who can hardly get by. Why are we so greedy that $100,000+ annually is such a bad deal? If we base it on the costs of education, there are many PhD's who make significantly less and seem to get by comfortably, despite their high interest loans!

Ph.Ds get paid a stipend while they are earning their degree and pay not tuition. They wouldn't have a fraction of the loan debt of a medical professional.

 

[frogger33]

I don't necessarily agree. I don't know any doctors that seem to be struggling financially.

If you do not know any doctors that are financially stuggling, then come down to Florida. We are loosing doctors by the day. Many leave the state, and others are forced to retire early because they do not break even. I have talked to doctors and even know some that are actually LOOSING money becuase of their practice. In many cases, their malpractice insurance is more than what they make in a year. VERY SAD

In my own opinion, I place LOTS of blame on lawyers and politicians. You know what is sad though.... we are fighting an uphill battle!! Many politicans ARE lawyers, and therefore the people writing the bills and getting them passed are one in the same in many circummstances. Also, if you look at the number of lawyers out there compared to the number of doctors and dentists, we are skrewed!! We talk about how big a class NYU has with 300 students, but many law school classes are 1,000, and the total number of law schools is much greater then medical and dental schools. (as a side note please understand that I do not mean all laweyrs are bad, I am just making a general assumption... there are exceptions)

The other sad thing, is that the general public does not truely understand how this is so tragic. "Free-health care" and getting rid of "bad doctors" with malpratice cases (many times frivoulous) sounds great until one day when they need a doctor and none can be found.

I agree with people on here that the medcial field NEEDS to come together on these issues becuase we will all be better off if we are on the front together.

 

[heyyah]

Ph.Ds get paid a stipend while they are earning their degree and pay not tuition. They wouldn't have a fraction of the loan debt of a medical professional.

Some PhDs do not get a stipend and go to school because they are interested in a particular field and want to get the highest academic degree possible. The PhD is the most prestigious degree that can be obtained. Some people have to borrow money to obtain a PhD and come out with huge loans, only to learn that PhDs for the most part do not make anywhere near $100,000 and never will. It is very difficult to pay back $100,000 in debt when you make $50,000. And this may be a shock to many on this site but $50,000 is more money than most people make.

$100,000, $150,000, $200,000
99% of the population the the US will NEVER make anywhere near this type of money in their life. Is there really noone on this site who has worked before and understands the real world just a little bit. These are all large sums of money and persons making this kind of money can live very nice lives even with student loans. Dentists and doctors do fine financially.

It is interesting that the dentist salary debate seems to be a regular post on the dental forums and is never present on the doctor forums. If the doctors were doing so badly even with managed care, wouldn't they talk about it from time to time? But they do not.

The real question here seems to be what do you want to be when you grow up or change careers? If you want to be a dentist go to dental school and if you want to be a doctor go to medical school.

One other misconception seems to be that dentists and doctors are very similar. They are not. What they do is not the same and how they do it is not the same. You need an understanding of the human body for both fields but that is where the similarities end. They really are 2 very different fields.

 

[TucsonDDS]

The main reason for the disparity for salaries between dentists and MDs is the simple fact that has been stated befor in this thread, Dentists have been able to keep managed care to a minimum and continue to collect their advertised fees. Hopefully the ADA and most dentists have seen the effects of managed care on medicine and will continue to demand higher reimbursements from their patients.

One thing that has not been touched on is that in an emergency setting hospitals and the MD's that they employ are not legally allowed to refuse service to any patient. It doesn't matter if these patients have any sort of ability to pay for services or not. If they do have the ability the hospital is more than happy to collect the full amount, if they don't the hospital is happy to collect 30c on the $ by working their asses off to get the patient on any sort of aid plan that is available. Even after discharge many of these physicians that were only able to receive a third of the compensation from the patients while they were in the hospital are now "encouraged" to provide follow up care for these same patients and then recieve only once again, a third of the compensation that they are entitled to. I am not saying that this is right or even ethical but it is a simple fact of medicine today.

The general population and the government of this country have determined that medical care is a god given right that should be given to all people either with the ability to pay or not. Luckily for us dentists and want-to-be dentists, dental care is not seen the same way. Dental care is considered more of a luxury item that is not fealt to be absolutely necessary. This is seen by the fact that very few people have or demand dental insurance as parts of their benefits packages with their jobs, therefor few people carry dental insurance, therefor people are forced to pay asking price for any dental procedures that are necessary. Until people start caring more about their teeth and start paying higher premiums for dental insurance we won't see as many insurance companies offering comprehensive services and and dentist won't have to deel with these insurance companies. So the fact that the general populations neglect their teeth and their crappy attitudes about the importance of them help to increase the salaries of dentists. Once people start caring the goverment and insurance companies will get more involved and that will be a bad day for us.

Are dentists compensated fairly, you betcha. Are MDs compensated fairly, no way. But I don't think it is going to change any time soon. And for all of you people who say, I will be more than happy to make 100K so stop complaining. I make close to that right now and I can tell you that after paying the mortgage, the car payments, the other bills and saving for my kids college and my families future, it isn't really that much. And right now I don't have 150 or 200K in student loans.

 

[ItsGavinC]

Not for nothing (I happen to think that based on the above #'s, dentists are paid what they're worth, whereas MD's are not by a longshot), but it's a joke that a pediatric dentist makes more than twice what a pediatrician makes. This country's values are all screwed up.

Not really. Pediatricians do not perform surgery on children. Pedicatric dentists do.

 

[AUG2UAG]

Not really. Pediatricians do not perform surgery on children. Pedicatric dentists do.

another one bites the dust!

 

[TucsonDDS]

Not really. Pediatricians do not perform surgery on children. Pedicatric dentists do.

Actually they do. They lance cysts, do lumbar punctures, pack bleeding noses, start lines, debride tissue, do bone marrow aspirates and many other things, it just depends on the setting in which they are working.