Survey on the experience of Black Men in Dentistry (UIC survey)

[Mr.Smile12]

Posted in Underrepresented in Healthcare subforum. Share with appropriate peers (dental school, residents, preceptors, faculty).

[YOUTUBE] Survey of Black Men in Dentistry

Survey link https://uic.ca1.qualtrics.com/jfe/form/SV_afNRx10SRvo6Znw

forums.studentdoctor.net

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[Let me out!]

Probably a good idea to think about the root of the problem. There are reasons why African Americans are underrepresented in higher educations in general.

 

[SV7855]

Why precisely is the percentage of black men in dentistry an issue worth addressing in any capacity?

Is the implication that dental schools are discriminating against them in the admissions process (highly doubtful)?
Is the implication that black patients would be better served by black providers? This implies that either black providers are better dentists or that non-black providers intentionally provide inferior care to black patients. Also highly improbable.

I find it highly concerning that this "issue" is even being discussed. It strikes me as racist and/or self-serving on the part of the commentators.

 

[DS2027]

Why precisely is the percentage of black men in dentistry an issue worth addressing in any capacity?

Is the implication that dental schools are discriminating against them in the admissions process (highly doubtful)?
Is the implication that black patients would be better served by black providers? This implies that either black providers are better dentists or that non-black providers intentionally provide inferior care to black patients. Also highly improbable.

I find it highly concerning that this "issue" is even being discussed. It strikes me as racist and/or self-serving on the part of the commentators.

I think it would do you some good to look at a few studies that have supported that black people and black women specifically are treated differently in medicine. For care to be bad, it does not have to be intentional is one fallacy in your implication.

 

[Mr.Smile12]

Just pointing out, this is an issue throughout higher education, including in medicine.

Action Collaborative for Black Men in Medicine

The action collaborative will focus on systemic solutions to increase the representation and success of Black men interested in medicine.

www.aamc.org

 

[DS2027]

Well what’s weird is that there are multiple institutions who have done studies on biases in medicine. So, it’s odd that you still reject those claims. I never made a statement on if accepting more black students would make things better. I think pointing out and addressing biases makes things better, instead of acting like they don’t exist and all these studies hold no truth….I also find it interesting that you don’t think there isn’t a single school that wouldn’t admit black people if they could get away with it.

 

[DS2027]

What does being a less-qualified applicant have to do with skin color? Why did you word it that way? Assuming that if one is a person of color they are less qualified…are there not people who have a higher melanin content that are still equally qualified? Do you have the idea that affirmative action is only getting in people who are less qualified but get in because their skin color?

 

[SV7855]

What does being a less-qualified applicant have to do with skin color? Why did you word it that way? Assuming that if one is a person of color they are less qualified…are there not people who have a higher melanin content that are still equally qualified? Do you have the idea that affirmative action is only getting in people who are less qualified but get in because their skin color?

Making a push toward an increase in African American representation in dentistry means accepting a disproportionate number of black applicants, since black applicants apply at a proportionally low rate compared to the population at large. To accept a disproportionate number of these students, you need to select FOR them at the expense of other non-black applicants who would have otherwise been accepted. It's simple math and statistics.

Yes, affirmative action is discrimination based on skin color alone. It actually hurts the supposed beneficiaries in the end because the general public is aware of these policies and it erodes the trust that doctors used to earn due to their outstanding merit.

I know this part is anecdotal, but I can tell you plenty of stories about how damaging these policies are. I have a significant other who is in a medical program that has a strong affirmative action leaning. The black students admitted via these channels actually end up segregating themselves from the other students in the program. They form a clique that detests and refuses to associate with the non-black students. They are also given fast-tracks to prestigious residencies at some of the nation's top hospitals despite being near the bottom of their class. They brag nonstop about how great they're doing compared to their peers despite the fact that many of them perform poorly in school. It's extremely disturbing and sad.

 

[DS2027]

Have you looked at the research regarding the bias of these institutions? And you really think that schools would not admit qualified students just because of their skin color? You might wanna check your own biases if that's your view.

Not schools or the institutions themselves, but the people who are in the admissions process sure…the fact that you think discrimination is a wild concept is interesting.

 

[DS2027]

Making a push toward an increase in African American representation in dentistry means accepting a disproportionate number of black applicants, since black applicants apply at a proportionally low rate compared to the population at large. To accept a disproportionate number of these students, you need to select FOR them at the expense of other non-black applicants who would have otherwise been accepted. It's simple math and statistics.

Yes, affirmative action is discrimination based on skin color alone. It actually hurts the supposed beneficiaries in the end because the general public is aware of these policies and it erodes the trust that doctors used to earn due to their outstanding merit.

I know this part is anecdotal, but I can tell you plenty of stories about how damaging these policies are. I have a significant other who is in a medical program that has a strong affirmative action leaning. The black students admitted via these channels actually end up segregating themselves from the other students in the program. They form a clique that detests and refuses to associate with the non-black students. They are also given fast-tracks to prestigious residencies at some of the nation's top hospitals despite being near the bottom of their class. They brag nonstop about how great they're doing compared to their peers despite the fact that many of them perform poorly in school. It's extremely disturbing and sad.

Or it’s a push to get people of color more interested in dentistry, so more people apply. There’s also a push to accept more women into dentistry too. No one just gets in based off skin color alone, that’s a ridiculous claim. They are still qualified applicants.

Yeah I’m not interested in your anecdotal evidence because I highly doubt anyone had access to those students transcripts to support the idea that they were bottom of their class.

Well maybe the public needs to get rid of the idea that black people accepted to dental school aren’t qualified to be there and get in only because of their skin color.

With that said though, people of color have been discriminated against in medicine for a long time along with other prestigious professions. That’s why most dentists are white men, so I don’t really care if another white man doesn’t get a seat because schools want to accept 1 or 2 more black qualified students.

 

[SV7855]

Or it’s a push to get people of color more interested in dentistry, so more people apply. There’s also a push to accept more women into dentistry too. No one just gets in based off skin color alone, that’s a ridiculous claim. They are still qualified applicants.

Yeah I’m not interested in your anecdotal evidence because I highly doubt anyone had access to those students transcripts to support the idea that they were bottom of their class.

Well maybe the public needs to get rid of the idea that black people accepted to dental school aren’t qualified to be there and get in only because of their skin color.

With that said though, people of color have been discriminated against in medicine for a long time along with other prestigious professions. That’s why most dentists are white men, so I don’t really care if another white man doesn’t get a seat because schools want to accept 1 or 2 more black qualified students.

"Or it’s a push to get people of color more interested in dentistry, so more people apply. There’s also a push to accept more women into dentistry too. No one just gets in based off skin color alone, that’s a ridiculous claim. They are still qualified applicants."
I have no problem with encouraging black people to enter the medical field... as long as that doesn't include a preferential admission criteria that discriminates against non-black applicants. By the way, if you look at the admissions statistics, black applicants (along with latino and native applicants) do gain admission with lesser scores than their white and asian peers. I have a serious problem with this.

"Yeah I’m not interested in your anecdotal evidence because I highly doubt anyone had access to those students transcripts to support the idea that they were bottom of their class."
Class rank is something that is discussed amongst medical students. I know for a fact that several black students who were ranked in the bottom quartile of their medical school class are now going to be residents at some of the top hospitals (think Johns Hopkins and Mayo) in highly competitive specialties such as neuro and ortho. This was due in large part to the color of their skin, and the residencies brag about this.

"Well maybe the public needs to get rid of the idea that black people accepted to dental school aren’t qualified to be there and get in only because of their skin color."
The public isn't stupid. If they know, rightfully, that certain applicants who have lower GPAs and entrance exam scores are gaining advantages in the admissions process due to the color of their skin, they will be skeptical of these doctors when it comes to who they select to perform treatment. Would you want your heart surgery performed by a doctor who was near the bottom of their class but was able to become a heart surgeon in large part because of their skin color? It undermines them as individuals and undermines academia/medicine in general.

"With that said though, people of color have been discriminated against in medicine for a long time along with other prestigious professions. That’s why most dentists are white men, so I don’t really care if another white man doesn’t get a seat because schools want to accept 1 or 2 more black qualified students."
Most dentists are white men because more white men want to become dentists. Sometimes when presented with a question, the most likely answer is the simplest one. Do you really think it's more likely that schools are actively discriminating against black applicants? Or is it more likely that more whites happen to apply and qualify?

If you think schools have this proclivity to discriminate based on race, why do you attend a dental school and give them your money? If you really thought they were this racist, I'd imagine you'd drop out immediately and file a lawsuit or start a protest movement. But no, you're happy to keep attending. Interesting.

 

[NavyBlueSuit]

What is always crazy about this argument is that black students make up about 5% of all dental students, according to the ADEA. Race aside, unless you know every aspect of an applicant's profile, it is a demeaning assumption that they did not earn their spot compared to other peers.

There are many applicants that get rejected for various reasons every cycle. There's more applicants than dental spots, so there will always be qualified applicants that don't make it. So how are black students the focus for stealing spots? What about the other 95% of spots? How do you know these students were "qualified"? Did you see all their applications as well?

The good thing about your argument is that the Supreme Court has already ruled on this issue.

As for why underrepresented populations should be a focus...I doubt anyone will change your opinion on that.

 

[DS2027]

"Or it’s a push to get people of color more interested in dentistry, so more people apply. There’s also a push to accept more women into dentistry too. No one just gets in based off skin color alone, that’s a ridiculous claim. They are still qualified applicants."
I have no problem with encouraging black people to enter the medical field... as long as that doesn't include a preferential admission criteria that discriminates against non-black applicants. By the way, if you look at the admissions statistics, black applicants (along with latino and native applicants) do gain admission with lesser scores than their white and asian peers. I have a serious problem with this.

"Yeah I’m not interested in your anecdotal evidence because I highly doubt anyone had access to those students transcripts to support the idea that they were bottom of their class."
Class rank is something that is discussed amongst medical students. I know for a fact that several black students who were ranked in the bottom quartile of their medical school class are now going to be residents at some of the top hospitals (think Johns Hopkins and Mayo) in highly competitive specialties such as neuro and ortho. This was due in large part to the color of their skin, and the residencies brag about this.

"Well maybe the public needs to get rid of the idea that black people accepted to dental school aren’t qualified to be there and get in only because of their skin color."
The public isn't stupid. If they know, rightfully, that certain applicants who have lower GPAs and entrance exam scores are gaining advantages in the admissions process due to the color of their skin, they will be skeptical of these doctors when it comes to who they select to perform treatment. Would you want your heart surgery performed by a doctor who was near the bottom of their class but was able to become a heart surgeon in large part because of their skin color? It undermines them as individuals and undermines academia/medicine in general.

"With that said though, people of color have been discriminated against in medicine for a long time along with other prestigious professions. That’s why most dentists are white men, so I don’t really care if another white man doesn’t get a seat because schools want to accept 1 or 2 more black qualified students."
Most dentists are white men because more white men want to become dentists. Sometimes when presented with a question, the most likely answer is the simplest one. Do you really think it's more likely that schools are actively discriminating against black applicants? Or is it more likely that more whites happen to apply and qualify?

If you think schools have this proclivity to discriminate based on race, why do you attend a dental school and give them your money? If you really thought they were this racist, I'd imagine you'd drop out immediately and file a lawsuit or start a protest movement. But no, you're happy to keep attending. Interesting.

A lot of your arguments are based in fallacy. At what point did I say I think all dental schools discriminate? Or did I say that I think there’s at least people in admissions process at some schools that do discriminate? What’s interesting is your level of reading comprehension.

You live in a naive mindset, if you really think for the last 100 years that the only reason there is more white people in medicine is because people of color simply don’t apply is outrageous. I’d urge you to look into how systemic and systematic racism affects certain demographics, but hey you might not believe those studies either.

Schools aren’t just accepting people simply based on scores any more, I think you need to understand that aspect. There are women, white men, black people, Asians who are accepted with lower scores compared to their respective counterparts because dentistry is more than just having the best scores. There are many cases where people with high scores get kicked out of dental schools.

 

[SV7855]

What is always crazy about this argument is that black students make up about 5% of all dental students, according to the ADEA. Race aside, unless you know every aspect of an applicant's profile, it is a demeaning assumption that they did not earn their spot compared to other peers.

There are many applicants that get rejected for various reasons every cycle. There's more applicants than dental spots, so there will always be qualified applicants that don't make it. So how are black students the focus for stealing spots? What about the other 95% of spots? How do you know these students were "qualified"? Did you see all their applications as well?

The good thing about your argument is that the Supreme Court has already ruled on this issue.

As for why underrepresented populations should be a focus...I doubt anyone will change your opinion on that.

I never refer to individual people in these arguments. We are speaking in generalities about a cohort of people; in this case non-white/asian applicants and students. The data shows that as a group, these minority groups receive preferential admissions even though the scores on average are lower. I don't make a judgment about why they're lower, I just read the data. Passing over more highly qualified applicants for lower qualified ones based on skin color is racism and discrimination, period.

Black students are the focus, along with latino and native students, for taking these spots because they are being given a competitive advantage for no other reason than their race. It's unfair and probably illegal.

I get it... your implication is that I'm a racist for pointing all of this out. It's always the fallback argument for people who don't want to address the reality of the situation. I dislike unfairness no matter how it presents. In this case it involves race. I didn't start this trend, I'm just making observations.

 

[NavyBlueSuit]

I never refer to individual people in these arguments. We are speaking in generalities about a cohort of people; in this case non-white/asian applicants and students. The data shows that as a group, these minority groups receive preferential admissions even though the scores on average are lower. I don't make a judgment about why they're lower, I just read the data. Passing over more highly qualified applicants for lower qualified ones based on skin color is racism and discrimination, period.

Black students are the focus, along with latino and native students, for taking these spots because they are being given a competitive advantage for no other reason than their race. It's unfair and probably illegal.

I get it... your implication is that I'm a racist for pointing all of this out. It's always the fallback argument for people who don't want to address the reality of the situation. I dislike unfairness no matter how it presents. In this case it involves race. I didn't start this trend, I'm just making observations.

I'm saying it is odd that you take an attacking stance on admissions when the discussion isn't about affirmative action. Mr. Smiles just shared a survey, and asked for the population to submit comments. There was nothing here to have a discussion about admissions, which was already ruled on by the Supreme Court.

There is information out there about biases and underserved populations. If you do not believe it by now, me sharing a few papers will not change that mindset. I just think this entire discussion is unnecessary, and sdn seems to allow a lot of negative discussion on black populations specifically.

 

[SV7855]

I'm saying it is odd that you take an attacking stance on admissions when the discussion isn't about affirmative action. Mr. Smiles just shared a survey, and asked for the population to submit comments. There was nothing here to have a discussion about admissions, which was already ruled on by the Supreme Court.

There is information out there about biases and underserved populations. If you do not believe it by now, me sharing a few papers will not change that mindset. I just think this entire discussion is unnecessary, and sdn seems to allow a lot of negative discussion on black populations specifically.

The reason for me bringing the whole topic up was that the entire notion of getting more black people into dentistry is problematic from the jump. It makes assumptions that are racist in my view. Why should we care what percentage of black people are in dentistry? Aren't we all the same on the inside anyway? What is achieved by increasing this number and how specifically is it achieved? If it is done at the expense of other applicants who are of a different race, it's a serious ethical problem.

I do not give credit to the studies about implicit bias because I believe they are based on false premises and assumptions. It's a whole different discussion but I'd be happy to have it at some point.

Your point about negativity toward black populations is illustrative of my point to a degree. The discrimination in admissions that is happening actually seeds racial animosity because many people realize that it is unfair. Instead of getting upset with people for pointing it out, maybe consider getting into a deeper discussion about the cause of the unrest. It may be an uncomfortable conversation for you, but those are the most interesting types of conversations.

 

[DS2027]

The reason for me bringing the whole topic up was that the entire notion of getting more black people into dentistry is problematic from the jump. It makes assumptions that are racist in my view. Why should we care what percentage of black people are in dentistry? Aren't we all the same on the inside anyway? What is achieved by increasing this number and how specifically is it achieved? If it is done at the expense of other applicants who are of a different race, it's a serious ethical problem.

I do not give credit to the studies about implicit bias because I believe they are based on false premises and assumptions. It's a whole different discussion but I'd be happy to have it at some point.

Your point about negativity toward black populations is illustrative of my point to a degree. The discrimination in admissions that is happening actually seeds racial animosity because many people realize that it is unfair. Instead of getting upset with people for pointing it out, maybe consider getting into a deeper discussion about the cause of the unrest. It may be an uncomfortable conversation for you, but those are the most interesting types of conversations.

Maybe by going to these communities, whether it’s high schools or universities, and educate them on the process and the path of getting into dental school…getting more black people interested in dentistry and more applying…why is that an issue for you? If you think we are all the same why does it matter?

 

[NavyBlueSuit]

The reason for me bringing the whole topic up was that the entire notion of getting more black people into dentistry is problematic from the jump. It makes assumptions that are racist in my view. Why should we care what percentage of black people are in dentistry? Aren't we all the same on the inside anyway? What is achieved by increasing this number and how specifically is it achieved? If it is done at the expense of other applicants who are of a different race, it's a serious ethical problem.

I do not give credit to the studies about implicit bias because I believe they are based on false premises and assumptions. It's a whole different discussion but I'd be happy to have it at some point.

Your point about negativity toward black populations is illustrative of my point to a degree. The discrimination in admissions that is happening actually seeds racial animosity because many people realize that it is unfair. Instead of getting upset with people for pointing it out, maybe consider getting into a deeper discussion about the cause of the unrest. It may be an uncomfortable conversation for you, but those are the most interesting types of conversations.

Again, your argument has been legally addressed in court. There was no reason to bring it up here, other than to try and push a narrative that black and other minority providers shouldn't be providers. That's why it comes off as negativity. Maybe stats on lawsuits and license suspensions would prove your point?

Racial animosity has been here for hundreds of years. Some of it warranted, and others not. This is not new. The people that only see this moment as racist and important to them really tell on themselves.

The fact that you don't believe in bias as a provider and simultaneously wonder why black providers are of any importance to the profession is chef's kiss. I just love that.

Representation of diverse backgrounds insures that all voices get heard at the table. The general population can't make suggestions about dentistry, and it is more difficult to discuss issues that may have never crossed a person's mind. Someone that grew up in LA will have experiences that can shape their perspectives differently than someone on the East Coast. That applies to culture, economics, etc. as well. I never knew that the mouth is a private area to certain cultures until I talked to them. Makes sense why the community team had a lot of difficulty getting them into the office for checkups and treatment. Every provider is not interacting and learning about all the communities in the area the same way. Having someone from there can give valuable information and discussions that lead to better healthcare outcomes. Dentistry has made only small headway in helping underserved populations, so getting opinions of people from those populations may provide good insights.

I've put a lot more time into this than it deserved. If you don't believe in implicit bias existing, then there's no need for this discussion to continue. Enjoy.

 

[SV7855]

Yeah that’s also a fallacy that just because you have a certain degree and blah blah blah that everything you say is more credible…You’re trying to say that I made a generalized statement about all schools, which I didn’t so I will attend university because I said I’m sure there are SOME schools that would, not ALL…that’s the distinction you aren’t getting. You know nothing about my real-word experience, so you’re just making more assumptions. But no one is getting in based only on their race, that’s where your premise for the entire argument fails, they are still qualified applicants.

If you don’t agree with the way dental schools admit students why would you attend a dental school? Sounds dumb right?

One logical fallacy deserves another

So you're willing to assume that there are some schools that would discriminate? Seems like a bit of a leap. Not sure what you're basing that on, especially since universities are the tip of the spear when it comes to social justice. And obviously nobody gets in solely based on their race, but for it to be a major contributing factor is an ethical crime in itself. Not sure how that equates to a failed argument.

I don't like the way traffic laws are enforced, but I still drive.

 

[gyngyn]

This thread is under review.
When a decision is made, a dentist mod will let you know!

 

[Ryxndek]

Decisions have been made. Thanks for being patient. Let's please try our best to keep things on topic for this thread.