dentist procedure - let them do the anesth??

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randomq

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Hi, so im a gas resident in the northeast. i have to get my wisdom teeth taken out in december. do i let the oral surgeon do the conscious sedation, or just go with the local? any opinions, or is it totally fine to go ahead and let 'em do it? just seeing what the opinions, on what I know will be a biased forum, are o n this
 
When I got my wisdom teeth out about ten years ago the dentist stuck a hypodermic looking needle in my antecubital vein and shot a few cc's of something directly into my vein. Didn't even start an IV. I woke up about two hours later on the couch in my house. It was a pretty good experience. Frightening, considering what I know now. For a split second there before I passed out I knew what it felt like to be a junkie.
 
As a college student, I had my wisdom teeth extracted under "general anesthesia" (most likely conscious sedation). It was only later when I went to medical school and started anesthesia residency did I realize how dangerous anesthesia can be.

Some dentists are trained to provide anesthesia. Some of them do "mini residencies" of a few to several months learning anesthesia. And let's be real here - conscious sedation isn't exactly rocket science.

However, I would want to know what kind of monitoring and emergency equipment the dentist has. For sure, there should be a pulse oximeter, a way to take blood pressure (prefer a machine), ambu bag, EKG, defibrillator, ACLS drugs. This may seem excessive, but if one wants to provide anesthesia, one has to be prepared to deal with the consequences.
 
I had mine out under local and it was perfectly fine. I didn't feel any pain but there's a part where the oral surgeon had to saw (assuming the tooth is impacted) and yank the tooth back and forth which can be disconcerting to listen to. Plus you can drive yourself home.
 
i had mine taken out (4 total) when i was 19. i think it was local. i drove home (about an hour drive on the 91 fwy in southern california -- traffic). i don't know how i made it home.
 
had mine taken out in college. Local. no problems. drove to meet my friends to play basketball that day. Of course, my teeth werent too "impacted" so if yours are you may want to choose the sedation.
 
in other words, all of us here who've had dentists knock us out have lived to tell the tale...

I had mine out when I was in high school. I remember breathing in gas at the begining, and waking up during the crunching part in the middle... Couldn't feel anything, don't think I actually minded too much even, and they got me off to sleep again pretty quick.

Incidentally, where I grew up the GI nurses give the sedation for endoscopy and colonoscopy. I had a colonoscopy 3 years ago and had awareness in the middle of that too...

I did a rotation at this same hospital a month or two ago, and spent a day in the GI suites. After watching that day, I'm not sure what a great idea it is to have the procedure nurses in charge of anesthesia... They just slam the patient with fentanyl, dilaudid, and midaz. The day I was there, there were MAJOR issues with sedation. Not major as in complications, but it was like someone slipped them placebo meds, because they could not get patients comfortable. With midaz, I'm used to giving 2 or 3 ml before bringing the patient back to the OR. That makes most people pretty comfortable - not comfortable enough to shove a scope up their rear, but you know. We used like 20 ml on a patient during a colonoscopy there, and ths lady (who, by the way, was elderly and heavy) was still squirmy. So she got some more midaz, and some more dilaudid on top of that... I was looking around the room for the emergency airway cart...
 
Oral surgeons do 3 or so months of anesthesia.

When I was a paramedic, i responded to an oral surgeon's office where he accidently induced GA on a 4 yo. She obstructed, he thought it was laryngospasm. He suxed her twice, could not intubate. She coded the second I tubed her and she died 3 days later.

They are prob fine with adults but I wouldnt trust my kid...

in other words, all of us here who've had dentists knock us out have lived to tell the tale...

I had mine out when I was in high school. I remember breathing in gas at the begining, and waking up during the crunching part in the middle... Couldn't feel anything, don't think I actually minded too much even, and they got me off to sleep again pretty quick.

Incidentally, where I grew up the GI nurses give the sedation for endoscopy and colonoscopy. I had a colonoscopy 3 years ago and had awareness in the middle of that too...

I did a rotation at this same hospital a month or two ago, and spent a day in the GI suites. After watching that day, I'm not sure what a great idea it is to have the procedure nurses in charge of anesthesia... They just slam the patient with fentanyl, dilaudid, and midaz. The day I was there, there were MAJOR issues with sedation. Not major as in complications, but it was like someone slipped them placebo meds, because they could not get patients comfortable. With midaz, I'm used to giving 2 or 3 ml before bringing the patient back to the OR. That makes most people pretty comfortable - not comfortable enough to shove a scope up their rear, but you know. We used like 20 ml on a patient during a colonoscopy there, and ths lady (who, by the way, was elderly and heavy) was still squirmy. So she got some more midaz, and some more dilaudid on top of that... I was looking around the room for the emergency airway cart...
 
Oral surgeons do 3 or so months of anesthesia.

When I was a paramedic, i responded to an oral surgeon's office where he accidently induced GA on a 4 yo. She obstructed, he thought it was laryngospasm. He suxed her twice, could not intubate. She coded the second I tubed her and she died 3 days later.

They are prob fine with adults but I wouldnt trust my kid...

What kind of serious dental problems exist in 4 y/o kids?

I had a dentist tell my wife that my 4 y/o needed a stain removed and they would be using anesthesia. I had her run out of the office with our child and we are not going back. No informed consent.
 
What kind of serious dental problems exist in 4 y/o kids?
You'd be surprised how nasty little kids' teeth can be if they don't brush them. We've done major dental restorations on young kids under GA in the hospital. Major cleaning, periodontal work, cavities filled, etc., sometimes 3-4 hours at a time. When they're really bad, it's easier just to put them to sleep and get it all done at once (true GA, NOT in the dentist's office)
 
That's the problem, mi amigo.
She had some teeth pulled- nothing that couldnt wait.

A call I will remember the rest of my life.


What kind of serious dental problems exist in 4 y/o kids?

I had a dentist tell my wife that my 4 y/o needed a stain removed and they would be using anesthesia. I had her run out of the office with our child and we are not going back. No informed consent.
 
Incidentally, where I grew up the GI nurses give the sedation for endoscopy and colonoscopy. I had a colonoscopy 3 years ago and had awareness in the middle of that too...

I did a rotation at this same hospital a month or two ago, and spent a day in the GI suites. After watching that day, I'm not sure what a great idea it is to have the procedure nurses in charge of anesthesia... They just slam the patient with fentanyl, dilaudid, and midaz. The day I was there, there were MAJOR issues with sedation. Not major as in complications, but it was like someone slipped them placebo meds, because they could not get patients comfortable. With midaz, I'm used to giving 2 or 3 ml before bringing the patient back to the OR. That makes most people pretty comfortable - not comfortable enough to shove a scope up their rear, but you know. We used like 20 ml on a patient during a colonoscopy there, and ths lady (who, by the way, was elderly and heavy) was still squirmy. So she got some more midaz, and some more dilaudid on top of that... I was looking around the room for the emergency airway cart...

I saw this very thing on my pharmacy rotation at the VA. I was observing an endoscopy and an upper GI scope. The meds the procedure nurses were giving (fentanyl and versed) weren't even beginning to take care of the patients pain and awareness. I got into his chart and saw that he was a major drug addict (diagnosis: PTSD and substance abuse) - no wonder those meds weren't helping. Disturbingly (to me) the docs weren't too worried about it. They had the nurses hold the patient down while they finished both procedures. His BP got up to 220/140 and he was red as a beet.

I was tasked to sit by the patient's head and try to keep him calm. I wiped his face with a cool washcloth and held his hand. Afterwards, he barfed on me. Fun times. Poor guy. 🙁
 
I saw this very thing on my pharmacy rotation at the VA. I was observing an endoscopy and an upper GI scope. The meds the procedure nurses were giving (fentanyl and versed) weren't even beginning to take care of the patients pain and awareness. I got into his chart and saw that he was a major drug addict (diagnosis: PTSD and substance abuse) - no wonder those meds weren't helping. Disturbingly (to me) the docs weren't too worried about it. They had the nurses hold the patient down while they finished both procedures. His BP got up to 220/140 and he was red as a beet.

I was tasked to sit by the patient's head and try to keep him calm. I wiped his face with a cool washcloth and held his hand. Afterwards, he barfed on me. Fun times. Poor guy. 🙁

This should be Illustration #1 for Hillary-care.
 
Hello everyone! I ran into this topic when I was doing a search, I am currently a dentist and I am also an oral surgery resident. We will usually recommend extraction of wisdom teeth under IV sedation if the wisdom teeth are impacted. If the teeth are not impacted, they usually come out fairly easily. If they are impacted, there can be a lot of discomfort during the procedure even if you are fully anesthetized locally. Extraction of impacted wisdom teeth will involve making a large flap of tissue to expose the bone, drilling away bone around the tooth, cutting the tooth into pieces with the drill to have it removed... and not to mention keeping your mouth open while you are doing this.

Everyone has heard the horror stories and many people think that oral surgeons are incompetent when it comes to sedations. Many oral surgeons do multiple IV sedations daily in their practice, with my experiences, we try to keep the patient lightly sedated to prevent many complications. Also, with a good oral surgeon, you're only sedated for approximately 20 to 45 mins while the teeth are being extracted.

So I would recommend being sedated if the teeth are impacted... and if you're healthy and not a chronic smoker. Hope this helps!
 
Do NOT let the dentists' office do anesthesia if you can help it. I had my wisdom teeth out in-office a few years ago. I have very low blood pressure, which "set off the alarm" on the machine, so they turned the alarm system off! A few hours later I woke up in the hospital.
Apparently the dentist had my boyfriend take me out the back door after the procedure because I looked so out of it, but by the time we got home, I had stopped breathing and turned blue. A 911 call and ambulance ride later, I woke up at the hospital, a casualty of some sort of over-anesthesia.
I never got all the details of the mistake, but it was a harrowing experience.
Beware!
 
My experience was exactly like Arch Guillotti's, except the couch I woke up on was in the oral surgeon's office....weird.
 
I had my wisdom teeth out under local + nitrous. I was offered the option of po valium preop, and also IV, although the surgeon said based on my x-rays, there was no need for IV sedation. I had no problem with the anesthestic.

I also had jaw reduction to correct an underbite. That was a multihour operation under GA. There was a real anesthesiologist there (of course).



For in-office operations/surgery, I dont know how needed an anesthesia specialist is, but for anything larger, I think they need a gas doc.
 
My experience was kind of crazy. I mean, this dude just stuck a needle in my antecube and aspirated a nice jet of blood into the syringe and wham I was outta there. Woke up several hours later, have no memory whatsoever of my dad driving me home. Now that I think about it - kind of reminds of the scene from Pulp Fiction when John Travolta shoots up (I think it was at that guy's house who gave the intracardiac epi - I just remember that jet of blood in the syringe).
 
our oral surgery residents do 6 months of ca-1 type anesthesia cases - running their own room to prepare them to do their own sedation. I think this is more than most programs - but these guys are all smart and competent. Then during their oral surgery time they do sedation in their clinic - they use full monitoring, propofol, etc. This is only for healthy patients. For any sickies they go to the or with real anes.
 
When I had my wisdom teeth out it was with sedation in the oral surgeon's office. I Remember having my IV placed then I remember being dragged out to the car with my dad holding me on one side and the nurse on the other side.

In my program we do a significant amount of dental care under GA. In both children and adults. Generally the kids are either severally developmentally delayed or have complex medical conditions and its easier to do an exam, xrays and all their cavities at once. They're actually kind of fun cases, because we usually do nasal FOB the whole day. Great practice. The adults are usually the ones who are either very sick (We want to pull your teeth before you heart transplant) Or they are the high anxiety types who you couldn't sedate enough to safely do their procedure.
 
As another oral surgery resident who stumbled onto this thread, I'll add another 2 cents. We do a required 4-6 months of anesthesia as an "anesthesia resident" running our own rooms, then spend the rest of our residency administering IV light/deep and GA in our own clinics. We are required to do at least 100 general anesthetics (anesthesia rotation doesn't count) while the residents in my program average closer to 200. I intubated over 200 times during my anesthesia rotation. We have a monthly conference on anesthesia throughout our 6-year residency given/attended by both our faculty and anesthesiology faculty. About 20% of our board exams is purely anesthesia. Anesthesia is an important topic in our journal and is the focus of many seminars at our national meeting every year. I mention all this to make the distinction between oral surgeon's training and general dentists who simply take a 60-hour course to sedate 20 people and intubate one of those ACLS mannequins. As far as monitoring, we use a minimum of EKG, pulse ox, heart rate, NIBP, respiratory rate. One of our clinics also uses capnography which I personally like. It's mainly versed/fentanyl with propofol or ketamine as needed. Obviously, there is disagreement in the dental community stemming from oral surgeons not wanting general dentists to administer sedation given their lesser training. When general dentists have complications, it still affects oral surgeons because all dentists are painted with the same brush in the public's eye. After finishing dental school, I never realized how much could go wrong until I did my anesthesia rotation during residency.

As far as local vs sedation for a procedure....it just depends on how difficult the procedure will be....which we really can't comment on here without an xray & exam. I take out lots of wisdom teeth under local, but there are many that would really benefit from sedation.

I also want to point out the difference between oral surgeons and all the other non-anesthesiologists (GI) who administer IV sedation. GI docs have no formal anesthesia training and really only intubate in codes and ICU patients (as far as I remember). Oral surgeons were specifically excluded from the stink between the ASA and non-anesthesiologists using propofol in 2004:

http://www.aaoms.org/docs/media_kits/anesthesia/asa_propofol_letter.pdf

Also remember that most of our anesthetics are short (<30min) and the procedures are relatively un-invasive. Usually ASA I/II patients, although almost half the sedation patients at our VA are ASA III. When the health history or procedure gets complicated, we take it to the OR with the real anesthesiologists. Patient selection is obviously key here, which (in my humble opinion) is one of the reasons we have such an enviable safety record. One review from insurance claims revealed a morbidity/mortality incidence of 1 in 704,000 patients over a 17 year period. Yes, the selection biases from insurance pool apply. Another interesting article on safety is here:

http://www.aaoms.org/docs/media_kits/anesthesia/joms_anesthesia_results.pdf

This post was longer than I intended, sorry.
 
When I got my wisdom teeth out about ten years ago the dentist stuck a hypodermic looking needle in my antecubital vein and shot a few cc's of something directly into my vein. Didn't even start an IV. I woke up about two hours later on the couch in my house. It was a pretty good experience. Frightening, considering what I know now. For a split second there before I passed out I knew what it felt like to be a junkie.


Wow. This is eerie. My wisdom tooth extraction went exactly the same way.

To be honest, I was quite thankful because I was so apprehensive about getting my teeth yanked out anyway.

Procedure was completely pain-free.

Heck, when I finally came to, I remember dragging myself to my car, having a friend take me back home, and then passing out until the evening.

And I was yapping away in the evening already absolutely painfree!
 
I had 3 of my impacted wisdom teeth surgically removed almost a year ago. I didn't know until the day of that I would be put under general anesthesia, thus I asked them what they would be doing to monitor me and what would be done in an emergency. They showed me their crash cart that was in the same room I was having the procedure done, and they put leads on my chest, a pulse ox on my finger, and put a BP cuff on my arm that automatically took my BP q 10 min. I felt pretty safe under their care.
 
I just had some work done today with sedation. I showed up at the dentists office yesterday for my "sedation consult". He knows i'm an MD and was very happy to tell me what drugs, what doses, how i would be monitored, etc. I also brought my own airway expert with me (my boyfriend who is an intensivist) and let the dentist know that he was in teh waiting room and if there were any issues of my sats dropping or anything else they were to call him in to check on me. I also checked to make sure they had the appropriate reversal agents and new how to administer them. I was fine, so glad i got the sedation. I barely remember much of the day (just woke up on my sofa a couple hours ago).
 
At my program we have 'dental residents' do a month of anesthesia. here's their schedule
1)they come in whenever they want and leave in about 2 hours.
2)they barely know how to start IVs
3)They dont express the interest to want to learn this stuff, so many of our residnets and attendings feel like they're 'wasting time'.
4)everyone knows that they are rotating through the dept because it's a requirement.
5)they cant really read EKGs (i know this because at our ACLS class they had know clue)...much like how I would have no clue how to pull a tooth or do a filling.
5)many have intubated MAYBE 10 times in the month.

I think you guys have seen the press that dentists have received in the last year or so after that child died from conscious sedation. I dont think the vast majority of the dentists know enough about resuscitating a patient, and therefore, getting conscious sedation from them is a very slippery slope. I wouldnt have them do it to me.👍
 
At my program we have 'dental residents' do a month of anesthesia. here's their schedule
1)they come in whenever they want and leave in about 2 hours.
2)they barely know how to start IVs
3)They dont express the interest to want to learn this stuff, so many of our residnets and attendings feel like they're 'wasting time'.
4)everyone knows that they are rotating through the dept because it's a requirement.
5)they cant really read EKGs (i know this because at our ACLS class they had know clue)...much like how I would have no clue how to pull a tooth or do a filling.
5)many have intubated MAYBE 10 times in the month.

I think you guys have seen the press that dentists have received in the last year or so after that child died from conscious sedation. I dont think the vast majority of the dentists know enough about resuscitating a patient, and therefore, getting conscious sedation from them is a very slippery slope. I wouldnt have them do it to me.👍

I agree. This was a general dentist. Again, recognize the difference in training between a general dentist and an oral surgeon.
 
Good post. It's refreshing to see a specialty that knows its limits when it comes to administering an anesthetic. 😍

As another oral surgery resident who stumbled onto this thread, I'll add another 2 cents. We do a required 4-6 months of anesthesia as an "anesthesia resident" running our own rooms, then spend the rest of our residency administering IV light/deep and GA in our own clinics. We are required to do at least 100 general anesthetics (anesthesia rotation doesn't count) while the residents in my program average closer to 200. I intubated over 200 times during my anesthesia rotation. We have a monthly conference on anesthesia throughout our 6-year residency given/attended by both our faculty and anesthesiology faculty. About 20% of our board exams is purely anesthesia. Anesthesia is an important topic in our journal and is the focus of many seminars at our national meeting every year. I mention all this to make the distinction between oral surgeon's training and general dentists who simply take a 60-hour course to sedate 20 people and intubate one of those ACLS mannequins. As far as monitoring, we use a minimum of EKG, pulse ox, heart rate, NIBP, respiratory rate. One of our clinics also uses capnography which I personally like. It's mainly versed/fentanyl with propofol or ketamine as needed. Obviously, there is disagreement in the dental community stemming from oral surgeons not wanting general dentists to administer sedation given their lesser training. When general dentists have complications, it still affects oral surgeons because all dentists are painted with the same brush in the public's eye. After finishing dental school, I never realized how much could go wrong until I did my anesthesia rotation during residency.

As far as local vs sedation for a procedure....it just depends on how difficult the procedure will be....which we really can't comment on here without an xray & exam. I take out lots of wisdom teeth under local, but there are many that would really benefit from sedation.

I also want to point out the difference between oral surgeons and all the other non-anesthesiologists (GI) who administer IV sedation. GI docs have no formal anesthesia training and really only intubate in codes and ICU patients (as far as I remember). Oral surgeons were specifically excluded from the stink between the ASA and non-anesthesiologists using propofol in 2004:

http://www.aaoms.org/docs/media_kits/anesthesia/asa_propofol_letter.pdf

Also remember that most of our anesthetics are short (<30min) and the procedures are relatively un-invasive. Usually ASA I/II patients, although almost half the sedation patients at our VA are ASA III. When the health history or procedure gets complicated, we take it to the OR with the real anesthesiologists. Patient selection is obviously key here, which (in my humble opinion) is one of the reasons we have such an enviable safety record. One review from insurance claims revealed a morbidity/mortality incidence of 1 in 704,000 patients over a 17 year period. Yes, the selection biases from insurance pool apply. Another interesting article on safety is here:

http://www.aaoms.org/docs/media_kits/anesthesia/joms_anesthesia_results.pdf

This post was longer than I intended, sorry.
 
At my program we have 'dental residents' do a month of anesthesia. here's their schedule
1)they come in whenever they want and leave in about 2 hours.
2)they barely know how to start IVs
3)They dont express the interest to want to learn this stuff, so many of our residnets and attendings feel like they're 'wasting time'.
4)everyone knows that they are rotating through the dept because it's a requirement.
5)they cant really read EKGs (i know this because at our ACLS class they had know clue)...much like how I would have no clue how to pull a tooth or do a filling.
5)many have intubated MAYBE 10 times in the month.

I think you guys have seen the press that dentists have received in the last year or so after that child died from conscious sedation. I dont think the vast majority of the dentists know enough about resuscitating a patient, and therefore, getting conscious sedation from them is a very slippery slope. I wouldnt have them do it to me.👍


Just like Toof said... those dentists are general practice dentists who are on a completely different spectrum of training compared to Oral & Maxillofacial Surgeons. Yes we are here to serve the surgical needs of the dental community, but in the hospital our primary role is that of Facial Reconstructive Surgery...

To add a little to what toof said...
OMFS Residents are required to perform their off-service rotations to other medical services on the "resident level of a PGY I or PGY II medical resident".

In our 48-72 months of residency training we are required to do the following:
2 Months of Internal Medicine
6-12 Months of General Surgery and Trauma Surgery
4-6 Months of Anesthesiology (plus almost another 3 years of delivering IV Sedation or General Anesthesia on a daily basis in the clinic for office-based procedures). While on Anesthesia service we run our own rooms.
1 Month Plastic Surgery
1 Month Otorhinolaryngology
1 Month Emergency Medicine or Neurosurgery

ALL OMFS Residents are BLS and ACLS Certified as well as ATLS Certified. We complete the history/physical diagnosis course as well and are comfortable listening to the heart and lungs and evaluating the patients for anesthesia and surgery.

We are comfortable operating in the neck and establishing emergency and surgical airways. (At my program we perform more than 90% of the trachs in the hospital).

There is one other group of dentists slowly growing in numbers that is capable of safely performing anesthesia... Dental Anesthesiologists (they train for 2-3 years along side Anesthesia Residents) but there are only 5-6 programs across the country...

And one final note... from a historical perspective modern day anesthesia stems from dentistry.
 
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