Dentists

[Dr.Millisevert]

yes, because this is very common of people who don't go to their dentist often

Ever hear of Ludwig's angina? >85% are of odontogenic origin. What about Actinomycosis infections of the submandibular space?

http://www.mja.com.au/public/issues/179_10_171103/aqu10203_fm.html

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[unoriginal]

Ever hear of Ludwig's angina? >85% are of odontogenic origin. What about Actinomycosis infections of the submandibular space?

http://www.mja.com.au/public/issues/179_10_171103/aqu10203_fm.html

and how common are these? i do not recall seeing these on the list of top health problems in the US...

LA: 24 to 62 cases per million
http://emj.bmjjournals.com/cgi/reprint/21/2/242.pdf

 

[blotterspotter]

and how common are these? i do not recall seeing these on the list of top health problems in the US...

LA: 24 to 62 cases per million
http://emj.bmjjournals.com/cgi/reprint/21/2/242.pdf

I just did a one month rotation in the ER and I would say that 1 out of 10 patients we saw had toof problems. Sure, most of them were disgusting pusy abscesses, but I didn't realize that many people didn't go to the dentist regularly. Anyone, I don't realize why MD's don't just start working on teeth and the mouth; they seem to be able to do everything else according to those on this forum.. you know, heal, confirm, marry, forgive.. I heard that once you get MD after your name, you're actually automatically made a god in heaven. It's just what I heard.

 

[Boston Native]

I just did a one month rotation in the ER and I would say that 1 out of 10 patients we saw had toof problems. Sure, most of them were disgusting pusy abscesses, but I didn't realize that many people didn't go to the dentist regularly. Anyone, I don't realize why MD's don't just start working on teeth and the mouth; they seem to be able to do everything else according to those on this forum.. you know, heal, confirm, marry, forgive.. I heard that once you get MD after your name, you're actually automatically made a god in heaven. It's just what I heard.

Those "toof" problems can be a bad thing.

What's up with all the animosity between physicians and dentists? A dentist just seems like a physician that works on problems pertaining to the teeth.

I agree with you about MDs....they often have a god complex, but the majority of them just prescribe medications that you already know you need.

 

[toofache32]

Don't dentists have the highest rate of suicide among professionals???? hmmmm...just my two cents...hehehehe

Hmmmmm.....what are you talking about and how is this relevant....hehehehe

 

[LAZYGUY]

A dentist just seems like a physician that works on problems pertaining to the teeth.

ahem....I don't think so.

 

[Dr_Who]

ahem....I don't think so.

Of course you don't. That was very witty of you, but what really blew my mind and made me thank god I was here to witness this day is your cunning explanation of why this is the case. Thank you LAZYGUY, I wish I was gay so I could marry you in Amsterdam [or if you're actually a woman, please PM me with your phone number]

 

[S Files]

Those "toof" problems can be a bad thing.

What's up with all the animosity between physicians and dentists? A dentist just seems like a physician that works on problems pertaining to the teeth.

I agree with you about MDs....they often have a god complex, but the majority of them just prescribe medications that you already know you need.

there's no animosity out in the real world. these snd'ers will know what i'm talking about eventually. right now they have a very naive, unrealistic view of medicine, are very ignorant about dentistry, have certain assumptions about dental students which are way off, but if it makes them feel better, go ahead. best thing is to ignore these types of threads.

 

[novacek88]

Sometimes I'm glad that reimbursement rates are going down so that I can actually see a doctor that cares about ME, my LIFE, and how I feel instead of his/her paycheck at the end of the day. Falling salaries may actually get guys that truly want to be doctors to HELP PEOPLE. Surely, money is extremely important in this world, and it seems to inspire man to do great things. The real guys that should have egos seem to be the ones that are sitting in a lab figuring out how to save humanity from the perils of disease. Those are the real heroes, the ones that do it to leave the world a better place, not because of a title or money.

This is faulty logic. The more the reimbursement rate falls, the less time your physician is going to spend time with you. He is just going to compensate for it by seeing a higher volume of patients which translates to less time per patient. The patient if anyone has suffered from managed care and reduced reimbursement rates. Many honest physicians simply can't afford to stay in practice if they spend a lot of time per patient. It's sad that people like yourself come to these conclusions without really thinking about these issues.

There are arrogant physicians just like there are arrogant dentists. I have met many physicians who are caring, and selfless but you never hear about those doctors because they don't make many headlines. Likewise, you don't hear about the good dentists because the bad ones are so much more fun to put on the news.

 

[blotterspotter]

This is faulty logic. The more the reimbursement rate falls, the less time your physician is going to spend time with you. He is just going to compensate for it by seeing a higher volume of patients which translates to less time per patient. The patient if anyone has suffered from managed care and reduced reimbursement rates. Many honest physicians simply can't afford to stay in practice if they spend a lot of time per patient. It's sad that people like yourself come to these conclusions without really thinking about these issues.

There are arrogant physicians just like there are arrogant dentists. I have met many physicians who are caring, and selfless but you never hear about those doctors because they don't make many headlines. Likewise, you don't hear about the good dentists because the bad ones are so much more fun to put on the news.

'
You make a good point sir, but from MY PERSONAL EXPERIENCE, I've seen a lot more arrogant physicians than any other health care professionals. I'm not saying they are all arrogant, but it is just from my own experience. I agree that a physician will have to see more patients if the rates fall deeper (and they already have), but there is an equilibrium that has to be met, and I'm not sure we're there yet. Can we just get back to speaking about how dentists are toof mechanics?

 

[Beau Geste]

Is this pissing contest STILL going on?

 

[LAZYGUY]

Is this pissing contest STILL going on?

Yup, I don't know why mid-level providers are always trying to measure up to MDs, especially dentists.

 

[blotterspotter]

Yup, I don't know why mid-level providers are always trying to measure up to MDs, especially dentists.

Mid-level? We're up that high? Hooray, oh thank you MS-II! You are most kind Dr.

 

[Beau Geste]

Yup, I don't know why mid-level providers are always trying to measure up to MDs, especially dentists.

I meant between BOTH professions.

 

[aphistis]

Degrading other professions to help keep air in one's own ego isn't acceptable. Keep it professional, please.

(To clear up any lingering confusion, "my profession can beat up your profession" posts are not professional.)

 

[blotterspotter]

Degrading other professions to help keep air in one's own ego isn't acceptable. Keep it professional, please.

(To clear up any lingering confusion, "my profession can beat up your profession" posts are not professional.)

I thought dentists were technicians? Can anyone verify or refute this?

 

[Dr. Pedo]

I thought dentists were technicians? Can anyone verify or refute this?

Actually you can get a dental degree at most community colleges; however, you must take all the advanced home ec courses as well as art. Oh, and you can not schedule any 6th period study-halls. That would make lunch 2 hrs long and that is unacceptable.

 

[cheer_up]

Actually you can get a dental degree at most community colleges; however, you must take all the advanced home ec courses as well as art. Oh, and you can not schedule any 6th period study-halls. That would make lunch 2 hrs long and that is unacceptable.

Well, I see this thread is now adopting the mentality, "if you can't beat them, join them". Hey, Dr. Pedo, I really like your motto at the bottom. . It's applicable here

 

[SigPi]

'
You make a good point sir, but from MY PERSONAL EXPERIENCE, I've seen a lot more arrogant physicians than any other health care professionals. I'm not saying they are all arrogant, but it is just from my own experience.

I'd agree with this. Honestly though, doctors are the ones who have the most on the line with regards to patient care. If something goes wrong, every other practitioner will "notify MD". Doctors are the ones who will have to make the biggest decisions, at times life and death, and then sit down to dinner at night with their families. So if a nurse, PA, pharmacist, tech or other "mid-level" disagrees with the physician but the doctor goes ahead and does what he/she believes is right anyway...so be it. This is not ego, this is not a god complex --this is taking responsibility and having confidence in ones training and experience.

I agree that there are some MD's with huge egos, but i feel that most (at least the ones i've worked with) have the patients best interest at heart. In my experience it has been the mid-level people who make something ridiculous out of a non-issue. If your doctor didnt have the confidence to treat you without consulting every other healthcare provider, would you, as a patient, have any confidence in him/her?

 

[blotterspotter]

I'd agree with this. Honestly though, doctors are the ones who have the most on the line with regards to patient care. If something goes wrong, every other practitioner will "notify MD". Doctors are the ones who will have to make the biggest decisions, at times life and death, and then sit down to dinner at night with their families. So if a nurse, PA, pharmacist, tech or other "mid-level" disagrees with the physician but the doctor goes ahead and does what he/she believes is right anyway...so be it. This is not ego, this is not a god complex --this is taking responsibility and having confidence in ones training and experience.

I agree that there are some MD's with huge egos, but i feel that most (at least the ones i've worked with) have the patients best interest at heart. In my experience it has been the mid-level people who make something ridiculous out of a non-issue. If your doctor didnt have the confidence to treat you without consulting every other healthcare provider, would you, as a patient, have any confidence in him/her?

I guess your conversion happens when you get accepted into medical school. Welcome sir..

 

[SigPi]

I guess your conversion happens when you get accepted into medical school. Welcome sir..

okay jacka$$. You don't know me or how long i have been in health care. Besides, who the Fu*k are you?? Hollywood, DMD?? Most likely a 3rd year dental student pissed you COULDN'T get in to med school, or that you have to work only with the mouth for the rest of your life! Sure i just got into school this year, but that means dick to what I was saying. Go ahead and live your life thinking most MDs are dinguses, I could care less.

Sorry, didnt read your posts close enough to know you are a troll:

I don't realize why MD's don't just start working on teeth and the mouth; they seem to be able to do everything else according to those on this forum.. you know, heal, confirm, marry, forgive.. I heard that once you get MD after your name, you're actually automatically made a god in heaven. It's just what I heard.

GOOD LORD...grow up, get a life or better yet both. We all have our niches in life, know your roll and play it well!

And i am officially done with this thread! Good luck in your career, dentie

 

[toofache32]

And i am officially done with this thread! Good luck in your career, dentie

Ooooohhhh! Man, he really told you off Blotterspotter!!!!

Listen frat boy, when you get to med school you'll realize that your pedestal exists only in your own mind. The medical degree is very generic and doesn't confer any special knowledge related to any particular anatomical region or specialty. There is no jack-of-all-trades in medicine....this is why we have specialties. Do you want an OB/GYN fixing your broken leg? Me neither. An orthopedist treats bones, OB/GYN's treat poons, and dentists treat mouths. There are actually no "gods" in health care.

I have a medical degree and I still mainly practice in one anatomical location....the face. Why don't you come back when you've actually started med school and know what you're talking about. Until then you're just another high-school troll.

 

[ItsGavinC]

yes, because this is very common of people who don't go to their dentist often

You ought to see my patient pool

 

[OnMyWayThere]

My brother-in-law is a dentist, and while he pretends that he LOVES his job and it is so fascinating and what not... he recently broke it down to me over a few sammies that he only went to dental school b/c he didn't get into med school the first time he applied (low verbal score). he gets great pay, easy hours (and only works 4 days a week at most), never deals with life-and-death issues, and is never on-call... HOWEVER, he is now seeing a psychiatrist on a weekly basis b/c he is unhappy as hell.

I guess the take-home lesson I have is to be DAMN sure that you'd be happy practicing dentistry before you go to school (not that most pre-dents don't know this)... if you're looking to do it as a "back-up" to medicine, you might be seriously dissapointed.

Same story with my cousin and dentistry - he recommended that I stay the heck away from it even though he is "living the lifestyle" of not working on weekends, nice car, home, etc. In fact, he is moving towards a new business of import/ export Keep in mind, I have heard from a lot of physicians " Are you sure you want to go to medical school?" ... many of them aren't so excited either, but they continue to practice medicine - but more cash-based medicine.

 

[SigPi]

okay, I had to respond because this toof guy would be funny if he wasn't so blatantly idiotic:

Listen frat boy, when you get to med school you'll realize that your pedestal exists only in your own mind.

Where in my past posts did I come off arrogant or on a pedestal?

The medical degree is very generic and doesn't confer any special knowledge related to any particular anatomical region or specialty.

The MD/DO degree i agree is "generic". It is a foundation on which the residency specialty training is built. This is a min of 3 years and more like 7 or 8 if you count fellowship training in some specialties.

The dental degree is not generic, it is very specific...some of the first 2 year class are comparable to medicine but the rest of the time you are focusing only on the mouth. That is why you can go right into practice without any further training. Sure dental residencies exist: general, orthodontics, periodontics, etc but even they are only 1-3 years MAX. The one exception is OMFS where certain programs allow you to earn a medical degree while you complete this lengthy residency (but some dont). Bottom line is not every dentie does a residency and it is NOT a requirement for licensure.

There is no jack-of-all-trades in medicine....this is why we have specialties. Do you want an OB/GYN fixing your broken leg? Me neither. An orthopedist treats bones, OB/GYN's treat poons, and dentists treat mouths..

Obviously. Refer to my last post, "We all have our niches in life, know your role and play it well" ie whatever your specialty is, be happy and do it well.

There are actually no "gods" in health care.

Where do you come up with this crap?? I NEVER said anything about anyone being a "god" in medicine.

Why don't you come back when you've actually started med school and know what you're talking about. Until then you're just another high-school troll.

I have read the posts and since graduating from college I've worked in health care for a few years now. You're a joke if you think your last post has any form of logical response to what i've written.

love,
"high-school frat boy"

 

[GonnaBeAnMD]

As you can see by thier posts, they refer to themselves as doctors. And this is true, like there are Doctor of History, Doctor of Sociology... there are doctorates in everything, including dentistry. They say "you are doctors and we are doctors of the mouth - specializing in the mouth". Clearly, they are not physicians. They cannot refer to themselves as physicians. Physicians, specializing in the mouth. They are doctors - and doctor does not equal physician.

This does not mean they do not earn respect. But it's crazy to say you're the same as a physician because you earn a doctorate, just like most of your teachers did - except you know the teeth and they know Chemistry or Microbiology.

 

[toofache32]

Where in my past posts did I come off arrogant or on a pedestal?

Ummm....the last one.

 

[Dr. Pedo]

My brother-in-law is a dentist, and while he pretends that he LOVES his job and it is so fascinating and what not... he recently broke it down to me over a few sammies that he only went to dental school b/c he didn't get into med school the first time he applied (low verbal score). he gets great pay, easy hours (and only works 4 days a week at most), never deals with life-and-death issues, and is never on-call... HOWEVER, he is now seeing a psychiatrist on a weekly basis b/c he is unhappy as hell.

I guess the take-home lesson I have is to be DAMN sure that you'd be happy practicing dentistry before you go to school (not that most pre-dents don't know this)... if you're looking to do it as a "back-up" to medicine, you might be seriously dissapointed.

This is perhaps the most ridiculous generalization I have ever seen! You should be ashamed for posting your brother-in-law's psychiatric problem and making it completely dentistry's fault. How embarrassing. Perhaps a little less "slamming of sammies" and a little more realizing life's truly important joys, would help. And since we're making sweeping generalizations: Maybe there is more to his unhappiness-----hmm. If, not, it doesn't take a psychiatrist to come up with the solution: Here it is, I hope you're sitting-----quit dentistry

 

[Dr_Who]

This thread is so silly that it can't go any further without turning into a Monty Python sketch. Here's my contribution:

I'm a lumberjack and I'm OK

I sleep all night and I work all day


...

Hope you enjoyed it.

 

[Beau Geste]

This thread is so silly that it can't go any further without turning into a Monty Python sketch. Here's my contribution:

I'm a lumberjack and I'm OK

I sleep all night and I work all day


...

Hope you enjoyed it.

Spam, spam, spam, spam!!!!!!!!!!

 

[ItsGavinC]

This does not mean they do not earn respect. But it's crazy to say you're the same as a physician because you earn a doctorate, just like most of your teachers did - except you know the teeth and they know Chemistry or Microbiology.

Except I treat medical and dental conditions, write scripts, refer out, etc. Am I a physician? Heck no--I'd never claim to be.

 

[ItsGavinC]

Sure dental residencies exist: general, orthodontics, periodontics, etc but even they are only 1-3 years MAX. The one exception is OMFS where certain programs allow you to earn a medical degree while you complete this lengthy residency (but some dont). Bottom line is not every dentie does a residency and it is NOT a requirement for licensure.

Even oral surgery programs that don't earn an MD degree are longer than 3 years.

And dental residency IS a requirement for licensure in some states.

 

[blotterspotter]

okay jacka$$. You don't know me or how long i have been in health care. Besides, who the Fu*k are you?? Hollywood, DMD?? Most likely a 3rd year dental student pissed you COULDN'T get in to med school, or that you have to work only with the mouth for the rest of your life! Sure i just got into school this year, but that means dick to what I was saying. Go ahead and live your life thinking most MDs are dinguses, I could care less.

Sorry, didnt read your posts close enough to know you are a troll:



GOOD LORD...grow up, get a life or better yet both. We all have our niches in life, know your roll and play it well!

And i am officially done with this thread! Good luck in your career, dentie

I bow down to you oh wise one..

 

[blotterspotter]

okay, I had to respond because this toof guy would be funny if he wasn't so blatantly idiotic:



Where in my past posts did I come off arrogant or on a pedestal?



The MD/DO degree i agree is "generic". It is a foundation on which the residency specialty training is built. This is a min of 3 years and more like 7 or 8 if you count fellowship training in some specialties.

The dental degree is not generic, it is very specific...some of the first 2 year class are comparable to medicine but the rest of the time you are
focusing only on the mouth. That is why you can go right into practice without any further training. Sure dental residencies exist: general, orthodontics, periodontics, etc but even they are only 1-3 years MAX. The one exception is OMFS where certain programs allow you to earn a medical degree while you complete this lengthy residency (but some dont). Bottom line is not every dentie does a residency and it is NOT a requirement for licensure.

There are some states where MDs only have to do a one year residency to be eligibile for licensure. You seem angry.

 

[Smilemaker100]

Just curious. Why do Medical students hate on dental students? Moreover, why does that hate carry on to medical doctors hating on Dentists. Is it just that dentists make more money easily or is it something else. Please feel free to explain this phenomena.

This excerpt from a recent article in the "Wall Street Journal" pretty much clarifies the tension that exists between some doctors and dentists:

"While medical reimbursement declines, dentistry is booming. Which makes doctors the poor relations of dentists.

I've got quite a few dentists who are clients. In my professional capacity I have found them personable, respectful, grateful for services rendered, not technology-averse, and extremely hard-working in improving their businesses as businesses. For dentists the greatest business challenge is finding and retaining good staff.

I've had medical doctors as clients, too. They've been smart, peremptory, technology-averse, knew more than I did about my own specialty (or gave that impression at any rate), jealous of their prerogatives, and slow to pay. I'm not sure what the greatest business challenge for medical doctors is today. It may be reimbursement.

That having been said I think that there are other reasons for the change in fortunes of dentists.

First, dentists don't seem to be quite as beholden to insurance companies as medical doctors are. Quite a few of my dentist clients don't accept insurance at all. And government doesn't seem quite as involved, either. It may be that entrepeneurialism is a more successful strategy than rent-seeking.

Second, dentistry is structured quite a bit differently than medicine. The really successful dentists of my acquaintance are not just billing their own time but have quite a team of hygienists, etc. whose time they're billing.

Have I mentioned that most dentists' offices (scores) I've been in are cleaner than the doctors' offices (also scores) I've been in?"

 

[Smilemaker100]

The way I see it, I believe that dentistry is not just a manual art but is a specialty of medicine. In fact, at many dental schools, medical and dental students are educated together in the first two years of the curriculum.

Historically, dentistry has been preoccupied with drilling cavities and scraping germs and unfortunately, infections everywhere else except the mouth have been considered as being serious health concerns. The mouth was not defined as being part of the body.

I definitely think there is a growing number of people who are realizing that dentistry is not limited to the study teeth but includes the diagnosis and treatment of conditions which are manifested in the tissues of the oral cavity.

 

[blotterspotter]

The way I see it, I believe that dentistry is not just a manual art but is a specialty of medicine. In fact, at many dental schools, medical and dental students are educated together in the first two years of the curriculum.

Historically, dentistry has been preoccupied with drilling cavities and scraping germs and unfortunately, infections everywhere else except the mouth have been considered as being serious health concerns. The mouth was not defined as being part of the body.

I definitely think there is a growing number of people who are realizing that dentistry is not limited to the study teeth but includes the diagnosis and treatment of conditions which are manifested in the tissues of the oral cavity.

The guys that started the first dental school in the world (in Maryland) were actually physicians I believe. Schools of medicine did not want to integrate dentistry into their specialties because it was so new and distinct from traditional medicine. Physicans provide a wonderful service and so do dentists, in my opinion. Let's all live in harmony, if possible..

 

[fun8stuff]

Except I treat medical and dental conditions, write scripts, refer out, etc. Am I a physician? Heck no--I'd never claim to be.

so what is up with chiropractors and physical therapists trying to call themselves physicians? i think there is more reason to knock on chiro than dentistry.... like evidence vs. no evidence... hah hah hah...

 

[rahulazcom]

so what is up with chiropractors and physical therapists trying to call themselves physicians? i think there is more reason to knock on chiro than dentistry.... like evidence vs. no evidence... hah hah hah...

I too think it's silly that some chiropractors call themselves physicians. What are physicians supposed to refer to themselves now? Okay, I understand that it isn't fair to just refer to yourself as a "doctor" since many other professions including chiropractors are doctors. But I thought the term physician was supposed to distinguish them from the general term "doctor" I suppose they could call themselves Allopathic Physician and Osteopathic Physicians but I think that would confuse the public even more than they already are?

 

[Dr. Dai Phan]

I too think it's silly that some chiropractors call themselves physicians. What are physicians supposed to refer to themselves now? Okay, I understand that it isn't fair to just refer to yourself as a "doctor" since many other professions including chiropractors are doctors. But I thought the term physician was supposed to distinguish them from the general term "doctor" I suppose they could call themselves Allopathic Physician and Osteopathic Physicians but I think that would confuse the public even more than they already are?

Hello,

Now there are three more types of physicians. Someone about a year ago avocate that dentists should be called "Oral Physicians!!!". DP

http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=258007

 

[IlizaRob]

Hello,

Now there are three more types of physicians. Someone about a year ago avocate that dentists should be called "Oral Physicians!!!". DP

http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=258007

To health care professionals other than MD/DO, the title "physician" is more about billing and reimbursement than prestige. Why are you so against dentists being called dental physicians? Is it because you are currently a dentist aspiring to be an MD/DO and are afraid that you wont be held at a higher esteem than your dental colleagues? Im just trying to understand what all this hype is about.

 

[aphistis]

To health care professionals other than MD/DO, the title "physician" is more about billing and reimbursement than prestige. Why are you so against dentists being called dental physicians? Is it because you are currently a dentist aspiring to be an MD/DO and are afraid that you wont be held at a higher esteem than your dental colleagues? Im just trying to understand what all this hype is about.

Gee, I bet that's it exactly.

 

[fun8stuff]

To health care professionals other than MD/DO, the title "physician" is more about billing and reimbursement than prestige. Why are you so against dentists being called dental physicians? Is it because you are currently a dentist aspiring to be an MD/DO and are afraid that you wont be held at a higher esteem than your dental colleagues? Im just trying to understand what all this hype is about.

well it is sort of like calling yourself a professional athlete when you only play for your city's hockey team or like calling yourself a soldier when all you actually do is reenact the civil war a few times a year with your beer drinking buddies. Also, it would be like calling yourself a professor when you only have a masters and you teach at a community college or like calling yourself a personal racecar driver when all you really do is enter your clunker in the local derby. get the picture?

if you look up the term "physician" it implicitly implies MD or DO. these other professions are trying to steal the term physician so they can try and get some of the prestige that MD/DOs have. why try and trick the public into thinking you went to med school when you didnt?

 

[ashahdc]

well it is sort of like calling yourself a professional athlete when you only play for your city's hockey team or like calling yourself a soldier when all you actually do is reenact the civil war a few times a year with your beer drinking buddies. Also, it would be like calling yourself a professor when you only have a masters and you teach at a community college or like calling yourself a personal racecar driver when all you really do is enter your clunker in the local derby. get the picture?

if you look up the term "physician" it implicitly implies MD or DO. these other professions are trying to steal the term physician so they can try and get some of the prestige that MD/DOs have. why try and trick the public into thinking you went to med school when you didnt?

When it comes chiropractors, that's ridiculous. Their diagnosis and treatment methods are not evidence based, and have been shown to cause harm. Yes in their case, they are knowingly deceiving the public if they try calling themselves physicians. Even Dr. is a stretch.
Podiatrists - actually I don't know much about them. I know their education isn't as extensive as MD's or dentists undergo. I respect them for what they do, but they are deceiving the public by saying physician - that's not a term to be thrown around.
Optometrists - limited training again. Not to be equated with MDs in terms of training. Their scope of practice is limited for a reason.
Physical therapists - are you kidding me? NOT phyisicans or Dr.'s.
All the above providers have their own place and are very important (chiro's the least). I respect them for what they do - but if they are advertising to be physicians that's really inappropriate. Physician implies a certain amount of knowledge and practice scope. Dr. implies a certain amount of knowledge and practice scope as well.

Now dentists are another issue - they are specialists of the hard and soft tissue of oral cavity - this is coming from someone who has had a lot of work done by dental specialists - i've had no cavities, but other stuff. They don't try to deceive the public in my opinion. They can rightly be called surgeons. They have their own niche. And I think within the medical community we all think to ourselves, damn how come we're mismanaging our system of health care delivery while the dents have got it straight. I'm man enough to say this. Having said this, I dentistry's not my cup of tea, that's why I went into med.
This is my opinion.

 

[jonwill]

When it comes chiropractors, that's ridiculous. Their diagnosis and treatment methods are not evidence based, and have been shown to cause harm. Yes in their case, they are knowingly deceiving the public if they try calling themselves physicians. Even Dr. is a stretch.
Podiatrists - actually I don't know much about them. I know their education isn't as extensive as MD's or dentists undergo. I respect them for what they do, but they are deceiving the public by saying physician - that's not a term to be thrown around.
Optometrists - limited training again. Not to be equated with MDs in terms of training. Their scope of practice is limited for a reason.
Physical therapists - are you kidding me? NOT phyisicans or Dr.'s.
All the above providers have their own place and are very important (chiro's the least). I respect them for what they do - but if they are advertising to be physicians that's really inappropriate. Physician implies a certain amount of knowledge and practice scope. Dr. implies a certain amount of knowledge and practice scope as well.

Now dentists are another issue - they are specialists of the hard and soft tissue of oral cavity - this is coming from someone who has had a lot of work done by dental specialists - i've had no cavities, but other stuff. They don't try to deceive the public in my opinion. They can rightly be called surgeons. They have their own niche. And I think within the medical community we all think to ourselves, damn how come we're mismanaging our system of health care delivery while the dents have got it straight. I'm man enough to say this. Having said this, I dentistry's not my cup of tea, that's why I went into med.
This is my opinion.

Podiatrists attend school for 4 years after college, the first two years follow an MD/DO curriculum, including basic sciences, systems, etc (some of the programs are with the MD/DO students). After that, they split off and focus on the lower extremity. After graduating, they receive a Doctor of Podiatric Medicine (DPM) and go on to a 3 year surgical residency. A podiatrist is the medical and surgical specialist of the foot and ankle within the healthcare system. They prescribe meds, admit and manage patients, perform complex surgery, etc. They are as qualified as any medical specialist (which is why 90% of our business is referred from MD/DO's). Because of our extensive training, we are often times referred to as "podiatric physicians". And for that matter, if a podiatrist isn't considered a physician (which they are by law for billing purposes in most states), than I'm not sure what qualifies one to be "a physician".
I consider dentistry to be a medical specialty. Not calling dentists physicians because they "only" deal with the mouth (like it's not attached to the rest of the body) is like not calling dermatologists physicians because they "only" deal with skin, or an ER doc because they often have to page a specialist (myself included), or proctologists, cardiologists, neurologists, OB, ortho, IM, FP, etc. These people deal with one aspect of the body. There is no such thing as a do-it-all "physician".
In the end, it doesn't really matter. I'm having fun and enjoying medicine. Let's all work together people.

 

[Dr. Dai Phan]

To health care professionals other than MD/DO, the title "physician" is more about billing and reimbursement than prestige. Why are you so against dentists being called dental physicians? Is it because you are currently a dentist aspiring to be an MD/DO and are afraid that you wont be held at a higher esteem than your dental colleagues? Im just trying to understand what all this hype is about.

Good morning,

I personally do not believe that dentists should be called "oral physicians" but just simply... dentists. It is nothing about me aspiring to be a MD/DO at all and I have no problem about being a dentist. I have made the right career choice and is very very happy with it. The reasons why dentist terminology should be left unchanged :

1. To minimize public confusion. The term physician is traditional reserved for medical doctors (MD/DO). To be technical, dentists are "specialized physicians" too. Dentistry is a specialty of redering medical care where the oral cavity and associated structures are the dentistry's scope of practice. But to tell someone " Oh, I am an oral physician" (although we righfully are) would only spark confusion in the public.. " Humm... what's that? So you are a... dentist?...". "Well , yeah I am but here... let me explain..." It is just simply causing a lot of hassle .

2. Because it takes away of "who we are". Dentistry is a specialized field that requires both competency in motor and mental skills. It is not easy to become a dentist. Ones who could not muster acceptable laboratory work were quickly washed out of dental school. Our profession requires the skill of a "micro surgeon" where we work with millimeters... and in such fine details...The ones who have these skills are DENTIST and we should address ourselves in public as such. It really bothers me when someone tells me " I am a doctor" and upon further "investigation", that person is a dentist. Why would you NOT say you are a dentist in a first place?

3. Because it casts an image of "inferiority complex" on the profession. The truth is that physicians in the past and now are always in the public eyes as the most respected profession in the health care system. That's the way it was and that's the way it will be. A dentist who has 9 specialties with a 3.99 GPA will not be viewed as "prestige" or held in high esteem as a physician who graduated bottom of his medical class (and was held 3 years in med school due to poor grades to boot!) in the public eye. That's the way it is and it is a sad fact that some dentists are not willing to accept. That's why (personal belief) some respected maxillofacial surgeons went off shore and get the "quick" MD degrees to put after their names but have no intention to practice medicine at all. Then why put it there? Image problem here? It simply casts a bad image on one of the most difficult and respected dental specialty as well on ones who earned it.

We as dentists are DENTISTS and we should not address ourselves in any other ways except as being DENTIST. We are a unique group of medical professional and we must not convey ourselves as "dental/oral physicians, doctor (except when addressing to patients)" as it gives the impression that we do not wish to be indentified as "dentist" and wanted to get away from "our roots.." . Plus, it is simply confusing for the public. DP

 

[Future Neuro]

I recently read an article that stated that dentists were making more money than most physicians on average. Dentists have nothing to feel inferior about if that is true.

 

[rahulazcom]

Podiatrists - actually I don't know much about them. I know their education isn't as extensive as MD's or dentists undergo. I respect them for what they do, but they are deceiving the public by saying physician - that's not a term to be thrown around

I had the same impression you did in regards to Podiatrists until I went to class with them. At AZCOM, all the podiatrists take the same basic science classes and the same exams as well. They also do many of the same rotations alongside in a ward based hospital setting during their third and fourth years of medical school. The AZCOM podiatrists' training is closer in scope to ours than any dental students. Podiatrists also do a 3 year residency. Of course, not all podiatry schools offer this same course schedule and training so I suppose it's inaccurate of me to say they are closer to physicians in terms of training than dentists. I will concede that.

Now dentists are another issue - they are specialists of the hard and soft tissue of oral cavity - this is coming from someone who has had a lot of work done by dental specialists - i've had no cavities, but other stuff. They don't try to deceive the public in my opinion. They can rightly be called surgeons. They have their own niche. And I think within the medical community we all think to ourselves, damn how come we're mismanaging our system of health care delivery while the dents have got it straight. I'm man enough to say this. Having said this, I dentistry's not my cup of tea, that's why I went into med.

But dentists do not participate in clinical rotations during their 3rd and 4th year. And those rotations are not jokes. They are very real. They include shelf exams at the end of most of them and Step II/Comlex II is a formal board exam that tests you only on your clinical rotation experience. Also, dentists are not required to engage in a formal 3 year residency in a hospital/ward based setting. Oral surgeons are an exception but many of them also went to medical school and have an M.D.

I have supported dentists on this thread and I think of them like equals but they are not physicians. Not having that title does not make them inferior in any way. And this is my opinion, but I don't think it looks favorable if some dentists or others try to adopt the term "physician" in their title. It just gives the impression they are insecure and feel the need to use the term "physician" to somehow garner respect. This is why most dentists will never refer to themselves as physicians in any capacity. They are proud of what they do and know that dentistry is an equally respectful and professional career.

 

[IlizaRob]

I had the same impression you did in regards to Podiatrists until I went to class with them. At AZCOM, all the podiatrists take the same basic science classes and the same exams as well. They also do many of the same rotations alongside in a ward based hospital setting during their third and fourth years of medical school. The AZCOM podiatrists' training is closer in scope to ours than any dental students. Podiatrists also do a 3 year residency. Of course, not all podiatry schools offer this same course schedule and training so I suppose it's inaccurate of me to say they are closer to physicians in terms of training than dentists. I will concede that.




But dentists do not participate in clinical rotations during their 3rd and 4th year. And those rotations are not jokes. They are very real. They include shelf exams at the end of most of them and Step II/Comlex II is a formal board exam that tests you only on your clinical rotation experience. Also, dentists are not required to engage in a formal 3 year residency in a hospital/ward based setting. Oral surgeons are an exception but many of them also went to medical school and have an M.D.

I have supported dentists on this thread and I think of them like equals but they are not physicians. Not having that title does not make them inferior in any way. And this is my opinion, but I don't think it looks favorable if some dentists or others try to adopt the term "physician" in their title. It just gives the impression they are insecure and feel the need to use the term "physician" to somehow garner respect. This is why most dentists will never refer to themselves as physicians in any capacity. They are proud of what they do and know that dentistry is an equally respectful and professional career.

I can inderstand where all of your comments and concerns are coming from. I just dont feel that its that big of a deal. If general Dentists were to call themselves oral physicians than that could be confusing. However, dental physician doesnt seem like something to fight over. As a DPM, I dont care if someone calls me a physician or not. Its really an opinion. These "turf" wars just get tiring. But technically there are many different definitions of a physician. For example, here is one.

Physician- means a Doctor of Medicine (M.D.), Doctor of Osteopathy (D.O.), Doctor of Dental Surgery (D.D.S.), Doctor of Podiatry (D.P.M.), Doctor of Chiropractic (D.C.), Audiologist, Certified Nurse Anesthetist, Licensed Professional Counselor. Licensed Professional Physical Therapist, Midwife, Occupational Therapist, Optometrist (O.D.), Physiotherapist, Psychiatrist, Psychologist (PhD.), Speech Language Pathologist and any other practitioner of the healing arts who is licensed and regulated by a state or federal agency and is acting within the scope of his or her license.

www.healthinsure.com/glossary.html

The only real definition that can be used as a standard are those which are defined by the states. Even those vary.

 

[fun8stuff]

I can inderstand where all of your comments and concerns are coming from. I just dont feel that its that big of a deal. If general Dentists were to call themselves oral physicians than that could be confusing. However, dental physician doesnt seem like something to fight over. As a DPM, I dont care if someone calls me a physician or not. Its really an opinion. These "turf" wars just get tiring. But technically there are many different definitions of a physician. For example, here is one.

Physician- means a Doctor of Medicine (M.D.), Doctor of Osteopathy (D.O.), Doctor of Dental Surgery (D.D.S.), Doctor of Podiatry (D.P.M.), Doctor of Chiropractic (D.C.), Audiologist, Certified Nurse Anesthetist, Licensed Professional Counselor. Licensed Professional Physical Therapist, Midwife, Occupational Therapist, Optometrist (O.D.), Physiotherapist, Psychiatrist, Psychologist (PhD.), Speech Language Pathologist and any other practitioner of the healing arts who is licensed and regulated by a state or federal agency and is acting within the scope of his or her license.

www.healthinsure.com/glossary.html

The only real definition that can be used as a standard are those which are defined by the states. Even those vary.

this website demonstrates part of the problem. no disrespect to your professions, but physician has traditional been reserved for MDs/DOs. No matter how much you talk your profession up, it is not the equivelant of a MD/DO. if you look in most dictionaries, it will state the traditional meaning of the word.... http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=physician&db=*
just because you walk and talk like a duck (and even participate in a few duck activities), doesn't make you a duck.

this would be like me enlisting in the reserve army and claiming i have the training of a marine because i went to bootcamp. i mean afterall, i did a lot of situps and pushups in my bootcamp... even had a lot of drills... my training must make me a marine!