Dermpath Salary In PP and Academia?

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Unty said:
What is the salary of a dermpath in PP vs. academia? What is the future of dermpath?
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I understand that it is difficult to keep good dermpath attendings because the private salaries are such a pull. So, even academic departments have to "put out" to keep up with the competition.
Check out this article in the Yale Daily News:
http://www.yaledailynews.com/articles/view/22459
One of the dermatology professors mentioned is actually a dermpath attending -- the third highest paid faculty position at Yale, $700,000
 
You can't really say what a dermpather makes in private practice as private practice can mean so many different things. If he goes into a small private group and becomes a partner then he will make what all the partners make in that group and probably do the same exact job as the others. If he goes to a pathmill to do solely dermpath it will seem like he is making a ton of money right out of residency, but the truth is 1/2-3/4 of what he really earns will go to his corporate bosses. If he is somehow able to get into a small private group that does only dermpath and that owns its own lab, then he will make a killing but those jobs are few and far between.

The salary in academia is also quite variable. If you are a sheepish person, you can just come in and sign-out your cases and take your salary and go home. On the other extreme, if you are an alpha type person, you can use your academic name to denigrate pathologists in private practice, take their business, and be a huge revenue generator for the department and the hospital. In the latter instance, the sky's the limit to what you can be compensated, but it takes a few years.
 
pathstudent said:
You can't really say what a dermpather makes in private practice as private practice can mean so many different things. If he goes into a small private group and becomes a partner then he will make what all the partners make in that group and probably do the same exact job as the others. If he goes to a pathmill to do solely dermpath it will seem like he is making a ton of money right out of residency, but the truth is 1/2-3/4 of what he really earns will go to his corporate bosses. If he is somehow able to get into a small private group that does only dermpath and that owns its own lab, then he will make a killing but those jobs are few and far between.

The salary in academia is also quite variable. If you are a sheepish person, you can just come in and sign-out your cases and take your salary and go home. On the other extreme, if you are an alpha type person, you can use your academic name to denigrate pathologists in private practice, take their business, and be a huge revenue generator for the department and the hospital. In the latter instance, the sky's the limit to what you can be compensated, but it takes a few years.
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Well Stated.....A couple of California Dermatopathologists make over a million. In all these instances these pathologists have "fame" that enables them to sequester cases and to get a private consult service. I am sure sites like this also add to these individuals marketability and wealth. http://www.mdlive.net/topiclist.htm
It is a good idea not to compare the majority of academic dermpath salaries to the LeBoit's, etc.. these people are way way up in the academic food chain.
 
The point is is that there are a wide variety of possible outcomes for your career and it is hard to make blanket statements.

Matte Kudesai said:
Well Stated.....A couple of California Dermatopathologists make over a million. In all these instances these pathologists have "fame" that enables them to sequester cases and to get a private consult service. I am sure sites like this also add to these individuals marketability and wealth. http://www.mdlive.net/topiclist.htm
It is a good idea not to compare the majority of academic dermpath salaries to the LeBoit's, etc.. these people are at the way way way top of the food chain in academic dermpath.
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pathstudent said:
You can't really say what a dermpather makes in private practice as private practice can mean so many different things. If he goes into a small private group and becomes a partner then he will make what all the partners make in that group and probably do the same exact job as the others. If he goes to a pathmill to do solely dermpath it will seem like he is making a ton of money right out of residency, but the truth is 1/2-3/4 of what he really earns will go to his corporate bosses. If he is somehow able to get into a small private group that does only dermpath and that owns its own lab, then he will make a killing but those jobs are few and far between.
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So, is it possible to get a job in a private group (not a pathmill) signing out only dermpath? Or at least have a great majority of your time devoted to dermpath, with a small mix-in other type of cases? Does anyone know people who pulled it?
 
mlw03 said:
a lot (academia) vs. even more (private). the future of dermpath likely involves evaluating skin biopsies and resections.
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dude, they are excisions, not resections!:laugh:
 
Matte Kudesai said:
Well Stated.....A couple of California Dermatopathologists make over a million. In all these instances these pathologists have "fame" that enables them to sequester cases and to get a private consult service. I am sure sites like this also add to these individuals marketability and wealth. http://www.mdlive.net/topiclist.htm
It is a good idea not to compare the majority of academic dermpath salaries to the LeBoit's, etc.. these people are way way up in the academic food chain.
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there are well more than a "couple" DPs making 7 figs in Calif, 1mil/yr isnt much of benchmark IMO. >2million is more real money.
 
LADoc00 said:
there are well more than a "couple" DPs making 7 figs in Calif, 1mil/yr isnt much of benchmark IMO. >2million is more real money.
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I was referring to ACADEMIC dermatopathologists. There are likely private practice dematopathologists that make zillions.
There were only two academic dermatopathologists in the state of CA with published salaries.
You know the TOP TEN earners list...
http://www.universityofcalifornia.edu/news/compensation/chronicle/top10.html

http://www.sfgate.com/news/special/pages/2005/ucsalary/

Please note that LeBoit's salary is published at 91,000. Not enough to rent a studio in SF.
But other factors... including " overtime, bonuses, housing allowances, relocation allowances, administrative stipends, revenue sharing and more than a dozen other types of cash compensation."

Not sure how much the hoi polloi in derm could make.
 
2. Philip Leboit, UCSF

* Full salary paid by professional fees; received state funding for a portion of salary scale rate in prior two years
* Internationally renowned expert in the diagnostic pathology of the skin, and in research and teaching related to skin disorders


4. Timothy McCalmont, UCSF

* State funded compensation provides a portion of salary scale rate
* Professional fees fund balance of salary
* Internationally renowned expert in the diagnostic pathology of the skin, and in research and teaching related to disorders of the skin
 
Are there opportunities out there for dermatopathologists to become a part of private practice and sign out only skin? What sort of jobs are these? Do you HAVE to sign out other surgicals and take care of CP to be marketable?
 
Matte Kudesai said:
I was referring to ACADEMIC dermatopathologists. There are likely private practice dematopathologists that make zillions.
There were only two academic dermatopathologists in the state of CA with published salaries.
You know the TOP TEN earners list...
http://www.universityofcalifornia.edu/news/compensation/chronicle/top10.html

http://www.sfgate.com/news/special/pages/2005/ucsalary/

Please note that LeBoit's salary is published at 91,000. Not enough to rent a studio in SF.
But other factors... including " overtime, bonuses, housing allowances, relocation allowances, administrative stipends, revenue sharing and more than a dozen other types of cash compensation."

Not sure how much the hoi polloi in derm could make.
Click to expand...

that info is out of date. Leboit is much closer to the 2 million mark now and probably far over that with any book and appearance $$$:
SF CHRON.

Wednesday, October 3, 2007

The report also noted that the 10 highest-earning employees at the university were athletic coaches or members of the health sciences faculty, such as physicians. Dr. Philip LeBoit, a UCSF professor and co-director of the UCSF Dermatopathology Service had the second highest amount of extra compensation, with a $102,503 base salary and $1.8 million in extra compensation, primarily from clinical revenues.
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1.9+ million......

That is serious wake up call for ambitious fellow pathologists out there that make 600-900 and sitting around fat/happy with their "success". Success is being upwardly defined everyday so unless you are bringing in/generating more business you might as well be dying.

Always be closing.

Beat Leboit or die trying!
300-movie-400a0309.jpg
 
DarksideAllstar said:
dude, they are excisions, not resections!:laugh:
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pe·dan·tic
–adjective
Characterized by a narrow, often ostentatious concern for book learning and formal rules: a pedantic attention to details.
Overly concerned with minute details or formalisms, esp. in teaching.

Welcome to pathology MLW. Wait until your attendings get a hold of your gross descriptions.

😴
 
How does one start up the path of being an academic pathologist who brings in substantial revenue by attracting consult cases? Does someone with fellowship training in one of the non-dermpath subspecialties (i.e. hematopathology) have a chance at the big bucks too? Do you find a niche in academia, start publishing and hope for the best, is there a better way?
 
Pathgrllll the link you provided actually has 2 full time path trained dermpaths at Yale listed, not 1. 🙂
 
Patrick O said:
Pathgrllll the link you provided actually has 2 full time path trained dermpaths at Yale listed, not 1. 🙂
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I see...obviously dermpath=$ academic or not. Yale has plenty of neurosurgeons, invasive cardiologists, etc, but they aren't at the top of the list!
 
EtOHWithdrawal said:
pe·dan·tic
–adjective
Characterized by a narrow, often ostentatious concern for book learning and formal rules: a pedantic attention to details.
Overly concerned with minute details or formalisms, esp. in teaching.

Welcome to pathology MLW. Wait until your attendings get a hold of your gross descriptions.

😴
Click to expand...

dude, you'll never get your d-path fellowship with that kind of attitude!😉
 
pathgrrl said:
I see...obviously dermpath=$ academic or not. Yale has plenty of neurosurgeons, invasive cardiologists, etc, but they aren't at the top of the list!
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These two are also well known experts in the field. Dermpath is not an automatic path to wealth. Most academic dermpaths make far less than that.
 
yaah said:
These two are also well known experts in the field. Dermpath is not an automatic path to wealth. Most academic dermpaths make far less than that.
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Please remember that you are only paid in proportion to the income you generate. You could have dermpath, be very slow, have lots of stuff you sign out bounce back....

Jennifer McNiff and Earl Glusac are renowned in their field. Their diagnosis will be the definitive endpoint of all the hoi polloi hedging in private practices worldwide. When you have the power due to your academic reputation to make a definitive diagnosis (especially in a medicolegally insane field)....

The cash will start rolling in ....
 
Yeah, there is a lot of money in dermpath in consults. In any field, really. But there are just a lot of dermpath consults - people in private practice will often send out any difficult melanocytic lesion to an academic dermpath.

People like Epstein at JHU (for GU, not dermpath) get upwards of 100 consults/day. You can see where $$$ can start rolling in if you have that pull.

But you don't become a high paid expert by just doing a fellowship. Getting the fellowship itself is hard work (in whatever area) - then, becoming the go-to person is also difficult.
 
yaah said:
These two are also well known experts in the field. Dermpath is not an automatic path to wealth. Most academic dermpaths make far less than that.
Click to expand...

I entirely agree with you yaah.
 
The guys at UCSF obviously do get tons of consults, but I seriously doubt the consults alone generate their salaries. I would guess that their dermpath service gets numerous biopsies sent directly to them from the regional derm community. The combined TC and PC on those would generate a lot of money for UCSF.

Regarding consults in general, private practice people don't send in cases because they don't know what it is or because it is too hard, the reason they most often do is for two reasons. First is that it is good patient care. Second is that if you have a case that isn't a slam dunk and your diagnosis will push the patient into or out of aggressive therapy it makes since to get someone else's name on the case. Less common reasons to send cases out would be because of failure to obtain group consensus and rare presentations of rare pathologies.
 
HRantz said:
How does one start up the path of being an academic pathologist who brings in substantial revenue by attracting consult cases? Does someone with fellowship training in one of the non-dermpath subspecialties (i.e. hematopathology) have a chance at the big bucks too? Do you find a niche in academia, start publishing and hope for the best, is there a better way?
Click to expand...

To get the big time money I think you need to generate the TC and PC. Any field that is high in outpatient biopsies has the potential to do that. GI is similar to derm in that regard.


Hemepath wouldn't be as easy. A few years ago, the TC for flow was insanely lucrative, but CMS wised up when they perceived abusive practices (i.e. ordering 21 antibodies on every single specimen). As CMS goes so go the insurance companies. Plus there is probably only one marrow/lymph nodes/lymphoma for every 100 gi/skin biopies. Also, they take quite a bit more time to review. The TC for heme cases is still good and can generate a lot of money but not like derm.
 
Probably none of you guys save for a few long time posters remember but there was a time when flow cytometry was billed on a per antibody basis....ie 30+ antibodies per flow reimbursement at medicare at about 97 bucks per antibodyX20 flows/d x200 work days -10% overhead=tad over 10 million/year.

that has been chopped by like 90% or more and the same WILL happen to Leboit and the army of DPs, its just a matter of time....the government is slowly going bankrupt, medicare is out of control, drug and medical device companies and stealing a larger and larger shares of the $$$ and more trainees are coming up through the system than it can support.
 
LADoc00 said:
Probably none of you guys save for a few long time posters remember but there was a time when flow cytometry was billed on a per antibody basis....ie 30+ antibodies per flow reimbursement at medicare at about 97 bucks per antibodyX20 flows/d x200 work days -10% overhead=tad over 10 million/year.

that has been chopped by like 90% or more and the same WILL happen to Leboit and the army of DPs, its just a matter of time....the government is slowly going bankrupt, medicare is out of control, drug and medical device companies and stealing a larger and larger shares of the $$$ and more trainees are coming up through the system than it can support.
Click to expand...

So what to do? Should I skip dermpath fellowship and just get a job with these drug and medical devices companies?
IMO dermpath still has a good future for the next decade or two because the number of training spots is relatively low, and most generalists have difficulties signing out skin. Therefore, folks with dermpath fellowship will have good leverage, and IMO supply and demand is the only thing that MIGHT keep physicians' salaries at decent level.
 
Anfield rd said:
So what to do? Should I skip dermpath fellowship and just get a job with these drug and medical devices companies?
IMO dermpath still has a good future for the next decade or two because the number of training spots is relatively low, and most generalists have difficulties signing out skin. Therefore, folks with dermpath fellowship will have good leverage, and IMO supply and demand is the only thing that MIGHT keep physicians' salaries at decent level.
Click to expand...

Dermpath is still a good way to go and always will be unless medicare radically changes how they reimburse. Even if they cut an 88305 to $10, you can still get and sign-out more 88305s in derm faster than any other area.
 
LADoc00 said:
Probably none of you guys save for a few long time posters remember but there was a time when flow cytometry was billed on a per antibody basis....ie 30+ antibodies per flow reimbursement at medicare at about 97 bucks per antibodyX20 flows/d x200 work days -10% overhead=tad over 10 million/year.

that has been chopped by like 90% or more and the same WILL happen to Leboit and the army of DPs, its just a matter of time....the government is slowly going bankrupt, medicare is out of control, drug and medical device companies and stealing a larger and larger shares of the $$$ and more trainees are coming up through the system than it can support.
Click to expand...

PREACH IT BRUTHA
 
pathstudent said:
Dermpath is still a good way to go and always will be unless medicare radically changes how they reimburse. Even if they cut an 88305 to $10, you can still get and sign-out more 88305s in derm faster than any other area.
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Um no...what you do is hedge your bets by expanding into other more nebulous areas of reimbursement. A good start would be doing AP AND CP.

Also, expanding one's idea of what a pathologist does would also be a good start. I can see entreprenurial types going into cosmetic pathology, do consulting, doing vet path or other potential income balancing activities.
 
LADoc00 said:
Um no...what you do is hedge your bets by expanding into other more nebulous areas of reimbursement. A good start would be doing AP AND CP.

Also, expanding one's idea of what a pathologist does would also be a good start. I can see entreprenurial types going into cosmetic pathology, do consulting, doing vet path or other potential income balancing activities.
Click to expand...

Cosmetic pathology? Wow, that can sound really sexy or really sordid.

What is cosmetic pathology? A new fellowship? 🙂
 
KeratinPearls said:
Cosmetic pathology? Wow, that can sound really sexy or really sordid.

What is cosmetic pathology? A new fellowship? 🙂
Click to expand...

I invented the phrase as I was typing the response. Feel free to create a defintion and put "profit $$$" after it.

1785221042_2f631f3876.jpg
 
Nobody has answered my question:

How do I get a consult service going? Point me towards the money!!!
 
HRantz said:
Nobody has answered my question:

How do I get a consult service going? Point me towards the money!!!
Click to expand...

Convince people you are an expert in a field. Advertise consult service.

????

Profit.


Just pick a field.

You can't have mine. I am going get the tubular adenoma expert.
I will open a consult service.

Tubular Adenomas Unlimited.
I will sign out all your tubular adenomas. (for an small fee of course)
 
LADoc00 said:
I invented the phrase as I was typing the response. Feel free to create a defintion and put "profit $$$" after it.

1785221042_2f631f3876.jpg
Click to expand...

We will aspirate that lump and bump...

For a small fee we'll tell ya what it is...:laugh:
 
HRantz said:
Nobody has answered my question:

How do I get a consult service going? Point me towards the money!!!
Click to expand...

Do research, write books, believe in yoself....

Have thick skin, longevity, a huge ego, good networking skills, develop a cadre of devoted trainees... publish.. go to meetings and teach... win awards.

Or develop a test that answers a clinical question and be the only one that can perform it. Then they will flock to you and give you the cash.
 
could someone PLEASE give me ballpark numbers on the salary of an avg. dermpath? Also, with good biz skills in addition to optimal location how much can I expect to make? If you aren't willing to post it in this thread, please PM me.

If medicare cuts reimbursement, dermpath should be the best field to be in in all areas of pathology?
 
NO you are obviously greedy...
 
Unty said:
could someone PLEASE give me ballpark numbers on the salary of an avg. dermpath? Also, with good biz skills in addition to optimal location how much can I expect to make? If you aren't willing to post it in this thread, please PM me.

If medicare cuts reimbursement, dermpath should be the best field to be in in all areas of pathology?
Click to expand...

It’s not that potential income / expected earnings aren’t topics we’re concerned with, but if you have to specifically ask about post-derm-fellowship income on a forum like this, it’s clear you haven’t chosen pathology as a career. Any med student who has done path rotations and vested time into learning about the field hears these figures by proxy, not by posting on SDN…you know it’s lucrative, but it’s relative to location, type of practice, and business savvy, like any other aspect of medicine.
 
Indeed. I would wager the income ranges from $110k per year to $800k per year, with some outliers on either side.
 
xanthines said:
Sounds good to me! 🙂

-X
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Would you have felt as good if he said 50k-2mil with no outliers? How about 60k-2bil?

Yaah is being vague...


virtually all physicians make over 90k.. what more do you need to know?
 
Unty said:
could someone PLEASE give me ballpark numbers on the salary of an avg. dermpath? Also, with good biz skills in addition to optimal location how much can I expect to make? If you aren't willing to post it in this thread, please PM me.

If medicare cuts reimbursement, dermpath should be the best field to be in in all areas of pathology?
Click to expand...

why do you think you have good biz skills??
someone with good biz skills would be able to research this on their own.

you have set sail on the failboat Im afraid.
dasfailboot.jpg
 
Wondering where Gut Shot is... I'm reminded of his hillarious OMFG image featuring Sulu from the old Star Trek...

BH
 
Unty said:
If medicare cuts reimbursement, dermpath should be the best field to be in in all areas of pathology?
Click to expand...

It could be the worst. Hard to say.
 
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