Des wakeups

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camkiss

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  1. Attending Physician
Question for you guys:

I have been noticing that patients who I use Desflurane on wake up rough; fast, but ugly. Lots of gagging/bucking, etc. I did some ENT cases today where I wanted a smooth wakeup so I gave 30mg propofol as soon as the patient started to gag/buck while wakening. That worked really well. I do not seem to have this problem as much with Sevo. Anybody else experiencing the same? I mentioned it to some colleagues who agreed they had noticed this. I would like to know what you all think.
 
this seems to be a common problem.........one of my attendings taught me something that works fairly well...........keep them 50-60% nitrous until end tital des less than .6/about wakeup........blunts the presumed pungency problem that causes this wakeup problem
 
camkiss said:
Question for you guys:

I have been noticing that patients who I use Desflurane on wake up rough; fast, but ugly. Lots of gagging/bucking, etc. I did some ENT cases today where I wanted a smooth wakeup so I gave 30mg propofol as soon as the patient started to gag/buck while wakening. That worked really well. I do not seem to have this problem as much with Sevo. Anybody else experiencing the same? I mentioned it to some colleagues who agreed they had noticed this. I would like to know what you all think.

I agree. If you try to just wake them up on DES then it is rougher than a Sevo or propofol wakeup, even with an LMA. But I rarely ever just wake them up on DES. I usually extubate or pull the LMA deep or give some propofol as you described at the end. Lido doesn't work for me. I think a partner of mine switches to nitrous 70% while blowing off the DES.
 
camkiss said:
Question for you guys:

I have been noticing that patients who I use Desflurane on wake up rough; fast, but ugly. Lots of gagging/bucking, etc. I did some ENT cases today where I wanted a smooth wakeup so I gave 30mg propofol as soon as the patient started to gag/buck while wakening. That worked really well. I do not seem to have this problem as much with Sevo. Anybody else experiencing the same? I mentioned it to some colleagues who agreed they had noticed this. I would like to know what you all think.

Desflurane is very irritating to the airways, which is why you don't use it for inhalational inductions. If you must use Desflurane (why I don't know since Sevo is cheaper and better IMO) try giving 100mg of Lidocaine IV 10-15 minutes before extubation.
 
The_Sensei said:
Desflurane is very irritating to the airways, which is why you don't use it for inhalational inductions. If you must use Desflurane (why I don't know since Sevo is cheaper and better IMO) try giving 100mg of Lidocaine IV 10-15 minutes before extubation.

I agree that sevo is better in the grand scheme of things. However, Des has its uses. For one, when you are using sevo without muscle relaxants, you must crank the conc. up to prevent movement on incision and during stimulating parts of the case. Not with Des, 1 MAC will do.

Cheaper? Not to sure about that. You can essentially close the circuit and use 1/4 the amount of Des in the vaporizor all day. Not the case with Sevo.

Lidocaine 100mg? Like I said not very reliable in my hands. I wouldn't do this if I really needed them not to cough since i can't rely on it. Sure it works sometimes but not all the time.
 
As far as using N2O or propofol while you are breathing off the Des, what are the advantages/disadvantages to each.

Will the prop cause more hypoventilation post extubation or is the prop totally distributed or eliminated having no effect. Are you bolusing the propofol just b/f extubation or is the pt intubated and you are just trying to get the des off so the airways dont get irritated, and you are extubating them wide awake.
 
camkiss said:
Question for you guys:

I have been noticing that patients who I use Desflurane on wake up rough; fast, but ugly. Lots of gagging/bucking, etc. I did some ENT cases today where I wanted a smooth wakeup so I gave 30mg propofol as soon as the patient started to gag/buck while wakening. That worked really well. I do not seem to have this problem as much with Sevo. Anybody else experiencing the same? I mentioned it to some colleagues who agreed they had noticed this. I would like to know what you all think.


why would you give propofol upon emergence... seems defeats the purpose.. doesnt make any sense whatsoever..
 
I give the propofol 20-30 mg about 5 min b/4 the end of the case. It has antiemetic properties and allows for a smooth wakeup. I rarely ever extubate awake. I give the propofol once they are breathing (this much has no effecton resp rate) and extubate b/4 the last stitch is in usually. They are wide awake by the time we move them to the stretcher.
I don't do the nitrous technique so I can't really comment on it. But that stuff blows off fast, especially at 6000 ft.
 
BIS said:
As far as using N2O or propofol while you are breathing off the Des, what are the advantages/disadvantages to each.

Will the prop cause more hypoventilation post extubation or is the prop totally distributed or eliminated having no effect. Are you bolusing the propofol just b/f extubation or is the pt intubated and you are just trying to get the des off so the airways dont get irritated, and you are extubating them wide awake.


N2O at 50-70% always worked well for me with Des- very little bucking/ coughing and patients are awake and comfy (if I titrated narcs correctly). The N2O allows you to get the des down and avoid the airway irritation- the nitrous blows off so fast once you turn it off that the patients are usually able to move themselves to the stretcher. Also (IMHO), I have found thet the patients I can extubate deep OR extubate awake while minimizing coughing and bucking, experience less PONV- regardless of which agent I use. Yet another reason for deep extubations (in my book).
 
The_Sensei said:
Desflurane is very irritating to the airways, which is why you don't use it for inhalational inductions. If you must use Desflurane (why I don't know since Sevo is cheaper and better IMO) try giving 100mg of Lidocaine IV 10-15 minutes before extubation.

Your institutions may have different negotiated prices, but a bottle of Sevo is (about) $200 and a bottle of Des is $100. That doesn't necessarily mean Des is cheaper, especially if running high concentrations. But, in general, I certainly notice the sevo running out faster (especially in mask inductions!) than the des........think lo flow.....
 
IceDoc said:
Your institutions may have different negotiated prices, but a bottle of Sevo is (about) $200 and a bottle of Des is $100. That doesn't necessarily mean Des is cheaper, especially if running high concentrations. But, in general, I certainly notice the sevo running out faster (especially in mask inductions!) than the des........think lo flow.....

Just curious if people usually run their flows with Sevo at the "suggested minimum" of 2L/min (vs low flows with Des) even with low "MAC hour" anesthetics.

Thanks,
Mick
 
mick2003 said:
Just curious if people usually run their flows with Sevo at the "suggested minimum" of 2L/min (vs low flows with Des) even with low "MAC hour" anesthetics.

Thanks,
Mick


Mick, I run sevo flows at 1 L/m. Most cases are under 2 hrs and definitely under 3 hrs.
 
Some of our attendings want us to use sevo with 3 l total flow (ie 1.5 air/1.5 O2). I personally don't like sevo at all. I pretty much use des or iso and will only use sevo with an lma or with inhalational induction. Des is FAST! but iso is a little smoother for the wakeup than des, I agree. I really don't think sevo is much faster than iso (especially for the last .3-.4%), although I know what the books say. It seems to be that for speed Des>>> Sevo>Iso. At our institution Sevo is twice the price of Des. (we get a special deal or something)
 
IceDoc said:
Your institutions may have different negotiated prices, but a bottle of Sevo is (about) $200 and a bottle of Des is $100.


Funny how contracts differ so much from place to place. I was talking with our OR pharmacist the other day.

bottle of des - ~ $110
bottle of sevo - $92
bottle of forane - $24

No wonder we use so much forane. It's chump change compared to the others.
 
I have had some bad experiences with des. I think that part of the key to using des is making sure that the pt has enough long-acting narcotics on board. Des goes comes off so quickly that you have to have something to treat the pts pain in them before u wake them up. Lido and propofol helps but morphine worked a few times 4 my patients.

Some surgeons go nuts if the patient moves and some surgeries r very delicate. The des stays off in those cases. Iso can be nicely titrated down as the end of the case approaches. The neuro anesthesiologists at my program r good at that. They know when to turn off the gas and how to wean it down.

I am a lowly ca-1 but so I do not claim to be an expert. I think that anything can give u a quick wake-up if u titrate it properly. Iso and nitrous can do the same thing as sevo. I suppose some of this involves the art of medicine that we will learn in time.

The coolest wake-up that I was a part of involved waking up the pt b/f the drapes came down.The pt was extubated b/f the drapes came down. UTSouthwestern mentioned doing that often in his cases.

At VCU/MCV they love to say that you can always give more drugs but u can't take back what u have already given. I am slowly learning this. so many things contribute to a smoothe/quick wake-up.

I am starting to ramble.

All the best,

Cambie
 
My routine is to put pt on 100% O2 and ~4% Des when surgeons are applying the dressing. Oh, pt has to be spontaneously breathing. After 30 sec (6-8 breath) I shut off the Des and pull the tube/LMA. Put on a face mask on and let'em wake up. I do this on all my easy mask ventilations. I can count in one hand when I had to give some jaw thrusts to help them a bit.

Any objections from the pros?
 
A4M said:
My routine is to put pt on 100% O2 and ~4% Des when surgeons are applying the dressing. Oh, pt has to be spontaneously breathing. After 30 sec (6-8 breath) I shut off the Des and pull the tube/LMA. Put on a face mask on and let'em wake up. I do this on all my easy mask ventilations. I can count in one hand when I had to give some jaw thrusts to help them a bit.

Any objections from the pros?

I pretty much do the same thing. Pull the tube deep while the pt spontaneously breathes and place a mask. HTe Surgeons never even notice it. They grab the drapes to pull them down and the pt is lying there with a mask on and the surgeon says, " did you mask him the whole case?" :laugh:
 
Adequate narcotics are the key. Also, I do not think that Des is a proper drug for ENT due to the location of the surgery (airway) with a drug that is not a good "airway" drug- at least for me. My worst case of all tim was a des rhinoplasty (airway) early on in my Des experience (years ago) The guy was young and a heavy smoker who got little narcotics in the OR. I had a ROUGH, 3-5 min struggle with the tube in with coughing, breath holding and probably little des elimination due to low minute volume under these conditions. Finally he started to sit up, reach for the tube so I pulled it. Laryngospasm BAD, hypoxia, Sux , reintubation and pink ETT froth. Thought that I would be OK with some time in an obvious neg pressure pulm edema. He got worse. ARDS worse. 3 weeks later he goes home. I presume that he aspirated as well but I never saw anything when I reintubated. That one affected me for a long time... Most GA is all about the airway. Why not use the best airway drug? ( by the way I still use des a fair amount).
 
Adequate narcotics are the key. Also, I do not think that Des is a proper drug for ENT due to the location of the surgery (airway) with a drug that is not a good "airway" drug- at least for me. My worst case of all time was a des rhinoplasty (airway) early on in my Des experience (years ago) The guy was young and a heavy smoker who got little narcotics in the OR. I had a ROUGH, 3-5 min struggle on emergence with the tube in; with coughing, breath holding and probably little des elimination due to low minute volume under these conditions. Finally he started to sit up, reach for the tube so I pulled it. Laryngospasm , hypoxia, Sux , reintubation and pink ETT froth. Thought that I would be OK with some time in an obvious neg pressure pulm edema. He got worse. ARDS worse. 3 weeks later he goes home. I presume that he aspirated as well but I never saw anything when I reintubated. That one affected me for a long time... Most GA is all about the airway. Why not use the best airway drug? ( by the way I still use des a fair amount).
 
Here's my recipe for fast and smooth emergences:

1. Induction with propofol

2. Run propofol infusion (for hypnosis). Start at 100-150 mcg/kg/min and titrate from there.

3. Start the remifentanil infusion (for pain). Start at 0.1 mcg/kg/min. Titrate from there, no higher than .2 mcg/kg/min if you can avoid it in order to prevent opioid-induced hyperalgesia.

4. Give 0.1 mg/kg morphine IV at the beginning of the case (no matter how short or how long the case will be). This will serve as your background narcotic as well as smooth out your emergence; not to mention take care of postoperative pain.

5. Keep patient on 60% oxygen/40% air mixture (less postop nausea, improved sense of well being if you believe the studies). NO VOLATILES.

6. Keep end tidal CO2 around 40+ (this will tell you how well you've titrated your narcotic in a non-paralyzed patient).

7. As surgery draws to a close, start titrating down the propofol (e.g. down to 75 mcg/kg/min during suturing, or 50 mcg/kg/min during dressings).

8. Give whatever other drugs you want to (Zofran, Toradol, etc.)

9. With the last few minutes of surgical time left, turn off the propofol but keep the remifentanil going at 0.05 mcg/kgmin to 0.1 mcg/kg/min.

10. Nine times out of 10, the patient will wake up within 60-90 seconds of the surgeon taking off his gloves. The patient will be rousable to voice. No coughing or gagging or bucking. You simply ask the patient to open their mouths, and you pull the tube ... all the while the remifentanil is running at a low rate. Once the tube is out, stop the remifentanil and keep morphine or fentanyl in your pocket for any post-op pain in the PACU.

11. The other one time out of ten times, the patient will waken within four minutes.

This recipe works awesomely for every type of surgery except cardiac surgeries (since volatiles have been shown to improve ischemic preconditioning, and thus you put your patient at a disadvantage by withholding gases from him) and certain orthopedic surgeries (e.g. external fixation). For everything else, from general to kidney transplants to spine cases to ENT to neurosurgery, this anesthetic will impress the surgeons, the OR staff, the PACU nurses, and even your anesthesia attending with respect to the speed and gracefulness of the emergence. And less nausea (because of the propofol and no gases).

Oh, yeah, this technique is a little difficult in tykes less than five years old cuz they have larger volumes of distribution and they metabolize the drugs much quicker.

I've had patients wake up euphoric and crying out of joy with this cocktail.

Although it's taken me 2 years to streamline it, and as good as it is in my hands, I'm always looking to improve it.

I think volatiles are harder to titrate and work with in terms of producing a smooth emergence because it's the narcotics which will prevent coughing and bucking, but then these very agents will also drive down the respiratory centers, thus taking the patient longer to blow out the gases, and thus causing greather time to emergence.
 
rn29306 said:
Funny how contracts differ so much from place to place. I was talking with our OR pharmacist the other day.

bottle of des - ~ $110
bottle of sevo - $92
bottle of forane - $24
....bottle of Bourbon......priceless.
 
toofache32 said:
....bottle of Bourbon......priceless.

I used to dispense this regularly....a long time ago....Spiritus Frumenti 1.5oz qd a evening meal. Altho - this was rotgut whiskey or gin (Lucky brand) - nothing I would drink (the wine was sent from dietary 😉 - different liquor laws 😀 ).
 
Damn near identical to my favorite cocktail and I will second that it gives awesome results. I love having a patient put both arms up in the air with two thumbs up when I ask them how they are doing as I roll them to the PACU. Nice advertising to my next case waiting for me in the hallway as to what he can expect.

I will admit to having some concerns re:the hyperalgesia that is becoming quite well recognized with Remi and so add a little voodoo with a bit of Ketamine though don't really have any real evidence.

My other cocktail for long cases but where you don't need as dense of a narcotic blockade or where 4hrs of Remi will be bloody expensive is a Sufent infusion. Give 0.5mcg/kg bolus up front then if the case is less than ~2hrs run 10mcg/hr if case is longer than 2 hrs run 15mcg/hr for most of the case, 10mcg/hr for the last hr. Turn off the sufent ~30 min from the end. Same nice narcotic awakenings. Dude, swallow. Dude swallows. Dude, open your mouth. Dude, opens mouth. Dude take a big breath. Bam, extubated end inspiration. Small cough clears the secretions caught above the ETT balloon but no bucking, no struggling, no 300 lb football player trying to get of the table to knock my lights out. This works great but if the case is less than say 45 min, the 0.5mcg/kg sufent will have your pt quite apneic.


TIVA said:
Here's my recipe for fast and smooth emergences:
 
CanGas said:
... I love having a patient put both arms up in the air with two thumbs up when I ask them how they are doing as I roll them to the PACU. Nice advertising to my next case waiting for me in the hallway as to what he can expect....:
that's awesome. great idea.
 
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