Ron Desantis "Vaccine Accountability Roundtable"

[rowsdower88]

Desantis is making vaccine skepticism a defining feature of his upcoming 2024 Presidential campaign. It will be a way for him to separate himself from Trump who (despite his other failings) promoted Operation Warp Speed and urged his constituents to get vaccinated half-heartedly.

Desantis features prominent covid vaccine contrarians and skeptics with dubious research to promote his political agenda. He wants to create a "public health integrity committee" which will:
"assess federal public health recommendations and guidance to ensure that Florida’s public health policies are tailored for Florida’s communities and priorities"

Governor Ron DeSantis Petitions Florida Supreme Court for Statewide Grand Jury on COVID-19 Vaccines and Announces Creation of the Public Health Integrity Committee

www.flgov.com

This committee will be staffed SOLELY with these skeptics and will be overseen by Florida's Surgeon General, Covid vaccine skeptic Joseph Ladapo. Who has recently recommended against males aged 18 to 39 from receiving mRNA COVID-19 vaccines due to research he conducted suggesting there is an increased risk of cardiac death.

State Surgeon General Dr. Joseph A. Ladapo Issues New mRNA COVID-19 Vaccine Guidance

content.govdelivery.com

Desantis has surrounded himself with these people. He is promoting dangerous vaccine skepticism. He is not a safe or smart choice relative to Trump. He rejects the overwhelming consensus that the covid vaccines have been overwhelmingly beneficial for saving American lives.

Anyone who supports Desantis needs to reckon with this and the costs it will bring to Florida today and America if he were to become President.

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Members don't see this ad.

 

[Blockit]

F Desantis. He’s just blowing the usual right wing dog whistles to attract the cult of stupids to his campaign.

 

[ucladoc2b]

Desantis and Ladopo released a study, dishonest at best, to make those recs. No authors. No peer review. Winner.

 

[MirrorTodd]

And yet people on this board and across the nation actually WANT him to become the next president.

 

[nimbus]

It’s hard to tell if he’s governing or campaigning.

 

[coffeebythelake]

Clowns gotta do clown things. And Republicans eat jt up. I guess they think this is a carnival.

 

[ucladoc2b]

It’s hard to tell if he’s governing or campaigning.

Not that hard…

I do question how viable he is outside of Florida. He appeals to the, um, population of that state. Not so sure he will have that success elsewhere.

 

[EMhawkeye]

further cementing the anti science/ anti intellectualism of the trump/ desantis supporters.

 

[EMhawkeye]

Yeah give me a physician that has less than passing familiarity with the evidence based medicine behind the covid vaccine. Inspires so much confidence. I want all their medical knowledge to come from facebook and faux news.

 

[Southpaw]

Fauci wasn’t perfect so we should elect an anti-science anti-vaxx politician as president. Got it, thx.

 

[rowsdower88]

Fauci wasn’t perfect so we should elect an anti-science anti-vaxx politician as president. Got it, thx.

I see this as being an effective way to peel off Trump voters during the R primary. I think Dems need to hammer this vaccine skepticism of his hard during the general election because it's genuinely bad for the country.

 

[IlDestriero]

I was reading somewhere, not long ago that DeSantis is everything bad about Trump with none of the charisma and no personality. If that’s true, I don’t see how he could be successful if he gets the nomination. That would give us four more years of sleepy Joe.

 

[MirrorTodd]

I was reading somewhere, not long ago that DeSantis is everything bad about Trump with none of the charisma and no personality. If that’s true, I don’t see how he could be successful if he gets the nomination. That would give us four more years of sleepy Joe.

That's kinda funny cause I feel like I've read the opposite...that DeSantis is actually a smarter, more capable Trump.

 

[pgg]

I was reading somewhere, not long ago that DeSantis is everything bad about Trump with none of the charisma and no personality. If that’s true, I don’t see how he could be successful if he gets the nomination. That would give us four more years of sleepy Joe.

It's Trump's "charisma and personality" that lost him the election. If he'd put down Twitter and simply STFU'd between the hours of 10 PM and 5 AM he'd be president now and the GOP would have majorities in the Senate and probably the House too.

DeSantis seems far more electable than Trump in a national election. Just a populous almost-swing-state like Florida firmly in the GOP column dramatically increases the odds of winning 270+ electoral votes.

But it's still 2022. How many anointed pre-primary frontrunners (from either party) actually amount to anything? Not many. Odds aren't bad the GOP nominee won't be either Trump or DeSantis. And god only knows who the Democrats will run.

 

[ucladoc2b]

It's Trump's "charisma and personality" that lost him the election. If he'd put down Twitter and simply STFU'd between the hours of 10 PM and 5 AM he'd be president now and the GOP would have majorities in the Senate and probably the House too.

DeSantis seems far more electable than Trump in a national election. Just a populous almost-swing-state like Florida firmly in the GOP column dramatically increases the odds of winning 270+ electoral votes.

But it's still 2022. How many anointed pre-primary frontrunners (from either party) actually amount to anything? Not many. Odds aren't bad the GOP nominee won't be either Trump or DeSantis. And god only knows who the Democrats will run.

Agree. Still early. But I disagree with Florida being a swing state. GOP dominates that place (for reasons that are too much for a forum post). There are no Democratic state executive officials.

DeSantis is taking a lot of culture war positions to the extreme right. Might help with the nomination. Can’t see it appealing to the general electorate other than those inclined to vote on those positions.

 

[aafisahar]

Clowns gotta do clown things. And Republicans eat jt up. I guess they think this is a carnival.

He's not a clown, he's the whole damn circus

 

[Blockit]

DeSantis is taking a lot of culture war positions to the extreme right. Might help with the nomination. Can’t see it appealing to the general electorate other than those inclined to vote on those positions.

Oh he will definitely soften those positions if he makes it to the general. He knows very well (or is advised so) that once you hook the dumb ones they tend to stick with you. In addition, they learn by "word of mouth" and social media and are less likely to be watching a later debate where the candidates prior words are presented to him.

 

[chessknt]

Oh he will definitely soften those positions if he makes it to the general. He knows very well (or is advised so) that once you hook the dumb ones they tend to stick with you. In addition, they learn by "word of mouth" and social media and are less likely to be watching a later debate where the candidates prior words are presented to him.

Then why did he do this vaccine committee? He won by a landslide who the hell is he doing it for? He actually believes in this.

 

[ucladoc2b]

Then why did he do this vaccine committee? He won by a landslide who the hell is he doing it for? He actually believes in this.

I know for a fact he is vaccinated. And boosted.

 

[Blockit]

Then why did he do this vaccine committee? He won by a landslide who the hell is he doing it for? He actually believes in this.

He’s doing this for his bigger goal of becoming president. This has nothing to do with the governorship. Trump’s blood is in the water right now and he’s going to do whatever it takes to get noticed by the base.

 

[tombreaz]

The reverberation of so many echos hits hard. Carry on.

 

[coffeebythelake]

He's not a clown, he's the whole damn circus

 

[rowsdower88]

With the increasing frequency of posts intended to foster insults of our medical colleagues, I find myself checking the forum less frequently and adding to a growing list of ignored users. Instead, please use Twitter, Facebook, or other media to blow your political dog whistles. I appeal to all users to please focus on anesthesiology issues. It is absurd to believe that you'll change anyone's opinion through insults and unprofessional to rant on political matters anonymously. Studentdoctor.net pays for every megabyte of storage space used by this forum.

Doctoring extends to questions of public health. This forum in particular has a long history of extending to questions of public health among many other issues unrelated to the practice of anesthesia. No insults intended.

 

[Hoya11]

With the increasing frequency of posts intended to foster insults of our medical colleagues, I find myself checking the forum less frequently and adding to a growing list of ignored users. Instead, please use Twitter, Facebook, or other media to blow your political dog whistles. I appeal to all users to please focus on anesthesiology issues. It is absurd to believe that you'll change anyone's opinion through insults and unprofessional to rant on political matters anonymously. Studentdoctor.net pays for every megabyte of storage space used by this forum.

I completely agree - all of this ridiculous political posting/arguing makes me not want to come on the board.

 

[rowsdower88]

I completely agree - all of this ridiculous political posting/arguing makes me not want to come on the board.

So far, no one is arguing on this thread. There is general agreement that what Ron DeSantis is doing is bad. That promoting vaccine skepticism and quacks is bad for the country.

Someone decided to discuss racism in medicine in another thread, maybe take this criticism there?

 

[nimbus]

I completely agree - all of this ridiculous political posting/arguing makes me not want to come on the board.

The political threads tend to be the most popular threads on this forum. In fact, some posters only participate in the political threads and appear to have zero interest in anesthesia. I don’t know if this is good for SDN, but most sites like traffic and the political threads drive traffic. If we eliminated the political threads, some folks would cry censorship and the board would have about 30% of its current traffic.

 

[coffeebythelake]

I completely agree - all of this ridiculous political posting/arguing makes me not want to come on the board.

This thread is political because politicians have decided to politicize medical issues. I don't know who DeSantis and I am not from Florida. I'm sure he is a very smart politician. And maybe he is a great governor that's why he won the election.

But the fact remains that he portrays himself as an antivaxxer and has appointed an antivaxxer has his state's Surgeon General (who is an actual physician and an even greater disgrace). He created an anti vaccine committee to sow doubt on the healthcare field. That *is* relevant to all of us. I would never support him because his stance on public health flies in the face of everything I believe in. that's why I call him a clown.

 

[chessknt]

I believe that skepticism about everything in medicine and science is sound thinking. Skepticism is the bedrock of the scientific method, particularly the negative hypothesis principle in experimental research. Is it your belief that every physician is a quack who believes mRNA technologies are potentially harmful? Like Florida, entire countries have banned mRNA inoculations for individuals under 40 years. Are the physicians guiding those policies quacks? A respected colleague of mine is an M.D. with two Ph.D. degrees in biochemistry and molecular biology. She deferred mRNA, waiting for Novavax because she postulated pathways mRNA could be inflammatory and induce autoimmune disorders. Do you believe she is also a quack?

Yes, I do. The choice wasnt 'do you want an experimental vaccine or not', it was 'do you want an experimental vaccine or a novel virus with unknown long term health effects and the potential to become seriously ill'. People who chose to get infected instead of vaccinate are quacks, hands down, full stop, because we had no history (except a small sample from SARS) that told us what the long term health effects of the virus would be either. The emergence of PASC is proof that there are indeed long term health issues related to COVID 19, far more proof of that to date than anything hypothetical from the vaccine.

Nobody minded academic skepticism but that evaporated when the skeptics were essentially all clambering to grandstand and become far right shills. They do speaking circuits at anti-vax rallies and the harder they shill the more they make. The people on this committee have won the grifter lottery, every Republican/qanon convention in America will pay them to come and speak. It isn't about science at all.

 

[rowsdower88]

I believe that skepticism about everything in medicine and science is sound thinking. Skepticism is the bedrock of the scientific method, particularly the negative hypothesis principle in experimental research. Is it your belief that every physician is a quack who believes mRNA technologies are potentially harmful? Like Florida, entire countries have banned mRNA inoculations for individuals under 40 years. Are the physicians guiding those policies quacks? A respected colleague of mine is an M.D. with two Ph.D. degrees in biochemistry and molecular biology. She deferred mRNA, waiting for Novavax because she postulated pathways mRNA could be inflammatory and induce autoimmune disorders. Do you believe she is also a quack?

No, yes, yes.

 

[EMhawkeye]

I believe that skepticism about everything in medicine and science is sound thinking. Skepticism is the bedrock of the scientific method, particularly the negative hypothesis principle in experimental research. Is it your belief that every physician is a quack who believes mRNA technologies are potentially harmful? Like Florida, entire countries have banned mRNA inoculations for individuals under 40 years. Are the physicians guiding those policies quacks? A respected colleague of mine is an M.D. with two Ph.D. degrees in biochemistry and molecular biology. She deferred mRNA, waiting for Novavax because she postulated pathways mRNA could be inflammatory and induce autoimmune disorders. Do you believe she is also a quack?

Without the data to back up her claims, they are talking out of their backside. Sound like bad scientists.

 

[Onefellswoop87]

Switching to Doximity since real names and credentials seem to keep posts more professional, useful, and civil.

Bye 👋🏻

 

[chessknt]

The most dangerous physicians are those believing their conclusions, diagnoses, and decisions are never wrong. And that anyone thinking differently than them is a quack. Posts like your ensure a complete understanding within me of the public's growing distrust in medicine and physicians. And your comments remind me that liability lawyers are both important and necessary to reign in arrogant physicians. For physicians with genuinely intellectual minds, I repost the sentinel manuscript "Unskilled and Unaware of It: How Difficulties in Recognizing One's Own Incompetence Lead to Inflated Self-Assessments"

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/12688660_Unskilled_and_Unaware_of_It_How_Difficulties_in_Recognizing_One's_Own_Incompetence_Lead_to_Inflated_Self-Assessments

The most dangerous physicians are the ones enabling and lending validation to anti-intellectual antivax loons in exchange for money. We have known physicians like this since the inception of medicine (Oz being the most immediately recognizable in modern times) however they used to keep their nonsense to generally benign wholistic snake oil and miracle fat pills. When they pivoted during the pandemic to supporting medical luddites who wanted Covid naturally regardless of the cost to the system and their own lives that is when they became extremely dangerous. I'll take a cocky physician any day over a loon like Marik. Look at how much time and money were wasted studying ivermectin and hydroxychloroquine because these people wouldn't let up even when it was clinically obvious it wasn't working.

 

[rowsdower88]

The most dangerous physicians are those believing their conclusions, diagnoses, and decisions are never wrong. And that anyone thinking differently than them is a quack. Posts like your ensure a complete understanding within me of the public's growing distrust in medicine and physicians. And your comments remind me that liability lawyers are both important and necessary to reign in arrogant physicians. For physicians with genuinely intellectual minds, I repost the sentinel manuscript "Unskilled and Unaware of It: How Difficulties in Recognizing One's Own Incompetence Lead to Inflated Self-Assessments"

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/12688660_Unskilled_and_Unaware_of_It_How_Difficulties_in_Recognizing_One's_Own_Incompetence_Lead_to_Inflated_Self-Assessments

Nothing you've posted is a scientific defense of Ron or his quacks, it's all a smokescreen for quackery as "intellectual bravery".

 

[coffeebythelake]

Skepticism goes hand in hand with testable hypotheses. You've described people who are die hard skeptics and that's it. Nothing will change their minds. This is not science.

 

[ucladoc2b]

The most dangerous physicians are the ones enabling and lending validation to anti-intellectual antivax loons in exchange for money. We have known physicians like this since the inception of medicine (Oz being the most immediately recognizable in modern times) however they used to keep their nonsense to generally benign wholistic snake oil and miracle fat pills. When they pivoted during the pandemic to supporting medical luddites who wanted Covid naturally regardless of the cost to the system and their own lives that is when they became extremely dangerous. I'll take a cocky physician any day over a loon like Marik. Look at how much time and money were wasted studying ivermectin and hydroxychloroquine because these people wouldn't let up even when it was clinically obvious it wasn't working.

I find it interesting how Joseph Ladopo let his CA and NY licenses lapse when he became the Florida SG.

 

[Guillemot]

The most dangerous physicians are those believing their conclusions, diagnoses, and decisions are never wrong. And that anyone thinking differently than them is a quack. Posts like your ensure a complete understanding within me of the public's growing distrust in medicine and physicians. And your comments remind me that liability lawyers are both important and necessary to reign in arrogant physicians. For physicians with genuinely intellectual minds, I repost the sentinel manuscript "Unskilled and Unaware of It: How Difficulties in Recognizing One's Own Incompetence Lead to Inflated Self-Assessments"

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/12688660_Unskilled_and_Unaware_of_It_How_Difficulties_in_Recognizing_One's_Own_Incompetence_Lead_to_Inflated_Self-Assessments

Sounds like gtb is a JAQoff.

Just asking questions (also known as JAQing off) is a way of attempting to make wild accusations acceptable (and hopefully not legally actionable) by framing them as questions rather than statements.

Just asking questions

Just asking questions (also known as JAQing off, or as emojis: "🤔🤔🤔"[1]) is a way of attempting to make wild accusations acceptable (and hopefully not legally actionable) by framing them as questions rather than statements. It shifts the burden of proof to one's opponent; rather than laboriously...

rationalwiki.org

 

[tombreaz]

The previous comment, regarding switching to Doximity, was baiting users to add to my ignore list. Successful in that endeavor.

Common sensical people are heavily needed, especially in echo chambers like we have here. Thanks for your input on this thread, I've appreciated it.

Wait... my program has reloaded. Pardon the glitch. I'll rejoin the chamber.

 

[rowsdower88]

The previous comment, regarding switching to Doximity, was baiting users to add to my ignore list. Successful in that endeavor.

Man's out here playing 6D chess against us.

 

[Shimmy8]

I am not saying I agree with these folks, but there are a LARGE number of educated, non-medical professionals out there (and probably some medical professionals) who agreed with the initial lockdowns and vaccine efforts, but felt the government (mostly liberal) overreach on mandates, extended lockdowns, school shutdowns, booster mandates, etc, simply went too far.

DeSantis is doing all he can to appeal to those folks. And I think amongst the Republican voter base, there are more than enough people who feel that way to get him the nomination win.

 

[rowsdower88]

I am not saying I agree with these folks, but there are a LARGE number of educated, non-medical professionals out there (and probably some medical professionals) who agreed with the initial lockdowns and vaccine efforts, but felt the government (mostly liberal) overreach on mandates, extended lockdowns, school shutdowns, booster mandates, etc, simply went too far.

DeSantis is doing all he can to appeal to those folks. And I think amongst the Republican voter base, there are more than enough people who feel that way to get him the nomination win.

He is pandering to AND fostering anti-vax sentiment.

The fostering is 10x worse than the pandering. Trump panders to these people, but at least he had Fauci to steer the ship and let the CDC do their thing. Operation Warp Speed should be considered one of the nation's most triumphant endeavors alongside the Hoover Dam, social security and the highway system. Trump is too scared of his own radicalized anti-government electorate to own it though.

So when you say he is trying to appeal to these people, you're missing the most problematic aspect: that he is actively making the anti-vax/anti-science problem worse.

 

[tombreaz]

He is pandering to AND fostering anti-vax sentiment.

The fostering is 10x worse than the pandering. Trump panders to these people, but at least he had Fauci to steer the ship and let the CDC do their thing. Operation Warp Speed should be considered one of the nation's most triumphant endeavors alongside the Hoover Dam, social security and the highway system. Trump is too scared of his own radicalized anti-government electorate to own it though.

So when you say he is trying to appeal to these people, you're missing the most problematic aspect: that he is actively making the anti-vax/anti-science problem worse.

Warp Speed was under Trump. He got vaxxed. You extol WS but then say Trump panders to anti-vaxxers. One thing is not like the other...

 

[rowsdower88]

Warp Speed was under Trump. He got vaxxed. You extol WS but then say Trump panders to anti-vaxxers. One thing is not like the other...

Exactly! The problem Shimmy8 was missing was that DeSantis both panders AND fosters. Trump mostly only panders, he doesn't foster as much antivax nonsense. (There were some bad tweets in the past now that I think about it...) DeSantis is much worse because of the fostering of antivax sentiment.

Trump should be touting WS every chance he gets because it was great!

 

[ucladoc2b]

Exactly! The problem Shimmy8 was missing was that DeSantis both panders AND fosters. Trump mostly only panders, he doesn't foster as much antivax nonsense. (There were some bad tweets in the past now that I think about it...) DeSantis is much worse because of the fostering of antivax sentiment.

Trump should be touting WS every chance he gets because it was great!

He ironically encourages vaccines. He was booed at one of his own rallies for doing so.

Overall this is pretty accurate. Trump talks smack but then doesn’t actually do anything for the most part. DeSantis actively tries to undermine, legislate and alter policy (vaccine and others). He’s much more worrisome.

 

[tombreaz]

Exactly! The problem Shimmy8 was missing was that DeSantis both panders AND fosters. Trump mostly only panders, he doesn't foster as much antivax nonsense. (There were some bad tweets in the past now that I think about it...) DeSantis is much worse because of the fostering of antivax sentiment.

Trump should be touting WS every chance he gets because it was great!

Thanks for the clarification. I'm not in agreement, though. DeSantis has questioned things, certainly-but as someone said above, that's normal and necessary in science (and life). I recall watching a press conference during the dark years and Ron was advocating pretty hard for the elderly to get their shots and I think he had to fight to get some vaccine supplies sent to the state. All that to say, I wouldn't label him antivax for those things. That would be an incorrect label and a hasty generalization based off left wing talking pundits.

 

[rowsdower88]

He ironically encourages vaccines. He was booed at one of his own rallies for doing so.

Overall this is pretty accurate. Trump talks smack but then doesn’t actually do anything for the most part. DeSantis actively tries to undermine, legislate and alter policy (vaccine and others). He’s much more worrisome.

It's almost tragic. The greatest collaboration between public and private enterprise in Trump's administration, which saved hundreds of thousands if not millions of lives, helped end lockdowns, fostered worldwide goodwill... and Trump DOESN'T OWN IT because his base rejects vaccines and mandates.

 

[rowsdower88]

Thanks for the clarification. I'm not in agreement, though. DeSantis has questioned things, certainly-but as someone said above, that's normal and necessary in science (and life). I recall watching a press conference during the dark years and Ron was advocating pretty hard for the elderly to get their shots and I think he had to fight to get some vaccine supplies sent to the state. All that to say, I wouldn't label him antivax for those things. That would be an incorrect label and a hasty generalization based off left wing talking pundits.

Just watch the video from the tweet I linked above. It's a legit anti-vax roundtable discussion. No one pushes back. No one cites other studies or questions anyone. He may have been better in the past, but this is who he is now.

 

[tombreaz]

Just watch the video from the tweet I linked above. It's a legit anti-vax roundtable discussion. No one pushes back. No one cites other studies or questions anyone. He may have been better in the past, but this is who he is now.

I watched a tiny bit of it. Not too invested. All I've heard is that the panel is going to investigate the legitimacy of some of the claims and some of the outcomes of the shot. I don't see what's wrong with that. Especially if it's a robust thing, then it should stand up very well to investigation.

It's almost tragic. The greatest collaboration between public and private enterprise in Trump's administration, which saved hundreds of thousands if not millions of lives, helped end lockdowns, fostered worldwide goodwill... and Trump DOESN'T OWN IT because his base rejects vaccines and mandates.

I was in a class titled "Critical Health Issues" and the prof asked us to name some of the most amazing medical marvels in recent history. I commented how great Trump did in getting a new vaccine to market faster than ever before. She looked at me with such a confused look. No discussion was had, she simply moved on. You know that sound when a Windows machine shuts down? It was that in real time

 

[ucladoc2b]

I watched a tiny bit of it. Not too invested. All I've heard is that the panel is going to investigate the legitimacy of some of the claims and some of the outcomes of the shot. I don't see what's wrong with that. Especially if it's a robust thing, then it should stand up very well to investigation.

Because it just directly undermines public health messaging, sows confusion, creates additional distrust for no reason, misreports/falsifies scientific evidence (which DeSantis and Ladopo do regularly), and makes inappropriate recommendations based on garbage data. Then it gets parroted by Fox News where to their crowd. This can create a lot of damage. These are problems. Come on naive premed. Do you really think it’s going to be anything more than a kangaroo court?

 

[rowsdower88]

I watched a tiny bit of it. Not too invested. All I've heard is that the panel is going to investigate the legitimacy of some of the claims and some of the outcomes of the shot. I don't see what's wrong with that. Especially if it's a robust thing, then it should stand up very well to investigation.

When I hold my roundtable discussion on whether or not the Nazis REALLY killed 6 million Jews and feature Gavin McGuinness, Lauren Southern, and Richard Spencer I'm sure you'll feel the same way. We're just "investigating the legitimacy of the claims".

Or maybe closer to your persuasion: When I conduct my thorough investigation into Hunter Biden's Laptop with Nancy Pelosi, Chuck Schumer and Hillary Clinton.

Conspiracies like the anti-vax movement, Holocaust denial, Flat Earthers, whatever... don't deserve roundtable discussions or committees. There is no burden of proof high enough for the mindset they attract, and you absolutely can question the legitimacy of such a committee when there are clear zealots orchestrating it.

 

[aafisahar]

It's almost tragic. The greatest collaboration between public and private enterprise in Trump's administration, which saved hundreds of thousands if not millions of lives, helped end lockdowns, fostered worldwide goodwill... and Trump DOESN'T OWN IT because his base rejects vaccines and mandates.

Tail wagging the dog.