Did any physician ever tell you it is not worth it? A must read for all premeds

[Law2Doc]

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Compare this to the veterinarian making 75k or lawyer making 45K a year with only slightly less debt, there is no comparison, the physician has over double the income.

You gotta compare apples and oranges. The folks who worked hard enough in undergrad and then med school to become doctors are not those who end up $45k/year lawyers. The starting salary at bigger firms is in the $140-160k range. And that's with only 3 years of professional schooling, and no residency. The dudes earning $45k would not have gotten into a US allo med school -- law school spots are so numerous that many fill up with C+ students. The fact that there is a glut on the market means that there are many at the low end who will get nothing, or very low paying gigs. But since these folks would not have been competitive for med school, you cannot really use them in the average when comparing one's potential in law versus medicine. You need to compare apples to apples. So you need to truncate the group to those who could have chosen law or medicine, which pretty much means IMHO the top half of the top twenty law programs and the folks who got law review at the other schools. And the average for these folks is to start at six digits. Having been to law school I can tell you that most people don't work as hard as med students, and most would not have made the cut for US allo. So throw out that $45k number, that's not what the comparable group would get. (Atul Gawande made the similar point in one of his New York Times magazine articles a few years back, it's not just my opinion FWIW, although from my personal experience I have some firsthand knowledge of the folks who have gone through both sets of schooling).

 

[Parts Unknown]

When you have to begin your post explaining why you're not a troll, you're a troll. But what fun would it be to not feed the trolls?

1) High debt.

Market power.

Read the thread in the General residency forum about the MD who didn't pay his loans for about 20 years and how his license was suspended without him realizing it. Then he was arrested for prescribing medicines without a license.

She was very aware of her suspension, but chose to break the law. She did not adequately pay her debt from 1987-1997, then did not comply with a court order to pay. She's deeply troubled and/or an idiot.

2) Government takeover of healthcare.

If you can think of another way to pay for grandma's health care then go for it.

3) Lack of tort reform.

Many states have tort reform. Find one, move there, and practice. That will send the only meaningful message possible to less practice-friendly states.

4) The dumbing down of healthcare.

I think I'm seeing it right now.

5) Many patients are not appreciative of the care we provide.

Awwww, does woobie have a booboo?

 

[keepworking10]

Things that are never discussed in this type of discussions:

- Lack of financial freedom. What does that mean? You can't make your money work for you like you can in a business function. Sure a doctor can still dabble in real estate and private business ventures outside of their day job, but when you are a cardiologist you are always on call for something (cath, vascular, morning rounding, night round, etc, etc). The same situation goes for so many other specialties.

- Deterioration of your health. This doesn't occur for every doctor, but many doctors are dealt with this. Some doctors get so stressed and tired that they develop anxiety, moods, wrinkles, age quicker, depressed (you are tied to your job 24/7 in a lot of specialties), etc. When you become a doctor, you are devoting the rest of your life to provide care for the patients you see.

- Lack of freedom of career choice. Sure a doctor can go into consulting, writing, bio tech, research, etc, but there isn't much you can do outside of medicine if you want to collect a paycheck. You can still leave the field of medicine and start your own hedge fund, start your own Internet marketing business, etc, but the chances of you getting a paycheck job from one of those business ventures is very limited.

- Lack of family time. There is a reason why people in medical school end up getting divorced. There is a reason why doctors marry doctors, and not so much vice versa.

 

[WholeLottaGame7]

There is a reason why doctors marry doctors, and not so much vice versa.

This sentence alternatively makes me laugh and my head hurt...

 

[RogueUnicorn]

This sentence alternatively makes me laugh and my head hurt...

and vice versa

 

[keepworking10]

This sentence alternatively makes me laugh and my head hurt...

Marriage between doctors last longer than marriages between a doctor and non-doctor.

 

[Parts Unknown]

Marriage between doctors last longer than marriages between a doctor and non-doctor.

Step 1: Look up "vice versa."
Step 2: ?
Step 3: Profit!

 

[keepworking10]

Step 1: Look up "vice versa."
Step 2: ?
Step 3: Profit!

I know what vice versa means. I didn't have all of the wording in the sentence. I stated it in the next post. Wake up on the wrong side of the bed today......referring to the other post you made in this thread.


See, pre-meds, you will be having to deal with people are are jackasses on a Sunday morning. Meaning, acting all tuff by going on the Internet to feel better instead of enjoying a great day outside relaxing.

 

[Law2Doc]

Marriage between doctors last longer than marriages between a doctor and non-doctor.

Um, Your prior post talked of marriage between doctors and doctors (not non-doctors) and vice versa (ie marriage between doctors and doctors vs doctors and doctors). You mis-typed above and it ended up comical. Which is why you got the response above. Based on your last post and the non-hostile tone of the prior posts, I think that the people dealing with jackasses on Sunday morning are on this thread but you might not be one of them.

 

[RogueUnicorn]

I know what vice versa means. I didn't have all of the wording in the sentence. I stated it in the next post. Wake up on the wrong side of the bed today......referring to the other post you made in this thread.


See, pre-meds, you will be having to deal with people are are jackasses on a Sunday morning. Meaning, acting all tuff by going on the Internet to feel better instead of enjoying a great day outside relaxing.

does the wrong side of your bed also have an auto up the @ss pole jammer

 

[keepworking10]

does the wrong side of your bed also have an auto up the @ss pole jammer

Only if there is a muscular male with a good sized package that comes with it lol (I'm female lol)

 

[RogueUnicorn]

Only if there is a muscular male with a good sized package that comes with it lol (I'm female lol)

lullz tmi

 

[Cyradis]

I'm joining the discussion a tad late but I do want to say good post to the OP. Definitely highlights many of the negatives that you don't think about when applying.

With that said, when it comes down to it, what other field would you be in? At the end of the day, it doesn't matter what is statistically the best job - it only matters where YOU would personally be happiest.

No offense L2D, but I think I'd probably shoot myself by age 30 if I went into law. Sure, the pay would probably be a lot better (relative to years of schooling/working conditions), but I sure wouldn't be happy there (personally). How about something where you could enjoy your lifestyle, like accounting (that was brought up before as an example)? I have a relative who just entered the job market as an accountant not too long ago - and at any major firm you work 9-9 regularly, because that's what you need to do to get promoted (unless you want to be junior forever?). Working conditions aren't that much better (and you don't get the prestige).

I think most people who go into medicine do it because of a personal interest in the stuff (along some influence from money/prestige). I don't think ANYONE goes into medicine for a cushy lifestyle. Since I haven't gone through med school/started working yet, I can't say for sure but I suspect that when I am working, I won't love the job as much as I think I will now, but I'll still be happier there than I would be anywhere else.

P.S. About the government take over of health care, medicine is still a very highly sought after position in Canada, where the government controls 100% of the finances for physicians. Taxes are higher (and you don't get more benefits because you're a high-income earner) salaries are lower, working hours/years of training are about the same, but it's still just as highly sought after. Since I'm leaving Canada, clearly I think I'd be less happy in the Canadian system than the current American, but I assure you I'd still go into medicine in Canada in a heartbeat, even with all the government controls.

Interestingly, maybe SDN is just skewing my perception of how unhappy physicians actually are with their jobs, but it seems like the average Dr. in Canada (the ones I know) are all very happy with their jobs....

 

[keepworking10]

I'm joining the discussion a tad late but I do want to say good post to the OP. Definitely highlights many of the negatives that you don't think about when applying.

With that said, when it comes down to it, what other field would you be in? At the end of the day, it doesn't matter what is statistically the best job - it only matters where YOU would personally be happiest.

No offense L2D, but I think I'd probably shoot myself by age 30 if I went into law. Sure, the pay would probably be a lot better (relative to years of schooling/working conditions), but I sure wouldn't be happy there (personally). How about something where you could enjoy your lifestyle, like accounting (that was brought up before as an example)? I have a relative who just entered the job market as an accountant not too long ago - and at any major firm you work 9-9 regularly, because that's what you need to do to get promoted (unless you want to be junior forever?). Working conditions aren't that much better (and you don't get the prestige).

I think most people who go into medicine do it because of a personal interest in the stuff (along some influence from money/prestige). I don't think ANYONE goes into medicine for a cushy lifestyle. Since I haven't gone through med school/started working yet, I can't say for sure but I suspect that when I am working, I won't love the job as much as I think I will now, but I'll still be happier there than I would be anywhere else.

P.S. About the government take over of health care, medicine is still a very highly sought after position in Canada, where the government controls 100% of the finances for physicians. Taxes are higher (and you don't get more benefits because you're a high-income earner) salaries are lower, working hours/years of training are about the same, but it's still just as highly sought after. Since I'm leaving Canada, clearly I think I'd be less happy in the Canadian system than the current American, but I assure you I'd still go into medicine in Canada in a heartbeat, even with all the government controls.

Interestingly, maybe SDN is just skewing my perception of how unhappy physicians actually are with their jobs, but it seems like the average Dr. in Canada (the ones I know) are all very happy with their jobs....

I work in the medical field (working with doctors for 8 hours a day 5 days a week) and I also work in the private sector business world.

Becoming a doctor is still something people should do. A society needs doctors. A healthy economy has to have healthy workers. A strong economy needs workers. Doctors help make the people of area communities to be healthy when they become ill.

One just needs to realize the realities of the profession so they are happy with what they want out of life. People are living in some dream land if they think they will be wealthy with insurance companies and government paying your check.

 

[KTownGT]

Only if there is a muscular male with a good sized package that comes with it lol (I'm female lol)

I meet half of the requirements🙂() and I'll bring over Excalibur 2.0 tonight. 👍

No offense L2D, but I think I'd probably shoot myself by age 30 if I went into law. Sure, the pay would probably be a lot better (relative to years of schooling/working conditions), but I sure wouldn't be happy there (personally). How about something where you could enjoy your lifestyle, like accounting (that was brought up before as an example)? I have a relative who just entered the job market as an accountant not too long ago - and at any major firm you work 9-9 regularly, because that's what you need to do to get promoted (unless you want to be junior forever?). Working conditions aren't that much better (and you don't get the prestige).

I think most people who go into medicine do it because of a personal interest in the stuff (along some influence from money/prestige). I don't think ANYONE goes into medicine for a cushy lifestyle. Since I haven't gone through med school/started working yet, I can't say for sure but I suspect that when I am working, I won't love the job as much as I think I will now, but I'll still be happier there than I would be anywhere else.

Interestingly, maybe SDN is just skewing my perception of how unhappy physicians actually are with their jobs, but it seems like the average Dr. in Canada (the ones I know) are all very happy with their jobs....

I think the average lawyer(in USA, at least) makes below 50k a year.

The only doctors I've talked to who have tried to steer me away from medicine were Allopathic Family doctors. Every DO, or physician who specialized in the field they wanted to loves their job a lot more. I always thought that was a little weird.

 

[Law2Doc]

...

I think the average lawyer(in USA, at least) makes below 50k a year.
....

Sure but you miss my point, the "average" lawyer who could have gotten into a US allo med school and who puts in the same effort in law school as a person tends to in med school more typically starts in the low six digits. The rest of the folks, those who pull down the average to a lousy income, are not comparable, any more than someone who mops up at the mini-mart can be fairly compared to a Rhodes scholar. When you take two very distinct groups like law (where folks with a C+ average and mediocre work ethic can still get in), and medicine, where the average is better than a B+, half of all applicants, after a high degree of self selection don't get in, and people with bad work ethics need not apply), you have to truncate the law group pretty significantly to make them similar or else you have an apples, oranges comparison. The question posed here is really only about how someone who can get into med school might fare if he put that same effort into law, so data on how a slacker who squeaked into a bottom law school and didn't apply himself does really doesn't belong here.

So I'm comfortable in saying that the group of lawyers who also would get into and thrive in med school are the same group who come out of law school to the six digit starting salaries. I know this from my experience at both schoolings, and knowing numerous folks in the law industry at a variety of salaries, and their career trajectories. The national average data is meaningless here because there are many many more lawyers than doctors graduating each year, the percentage of applicants who find their way into law school is far more significant than those who go to US allo med schools, there are few self selecting hurdles the way there are to get into med school, and as a result, you will find very many mediocre law students, having come to law school with gentleman's C's and not really working that hard to excel once they get there. So to make a fair comparison, you have to make drastic cuts, and IMHO look at the top half of the top schools, and the folks who grade onto law review everywhere else. Because those are the people who would have made it into and through med school. The rest, not so much. And that would be your apples to apples comparison here. And these folks get the big city, big firm jobs, that pay six digits. And again, this isn't just my opinion, Atul Gawande, author of Complications, made pretty much the same argument a few years back in one of his publications. Nuff said.

 

[Law2Doc]

...
The only doctors I've talked to who have tried to steer me away from medicine were Allopathic Family doctors. Every DO, or physician who specialized in the field they wanted to loves their job a lot more. I always thought that was a little weird.

You don't know a good cross section of physicians then. There are folks in every specialty who feel that, although they don't necessarily dislike their job, they probably wouldn't encourage others to follow suit. I think I've heard this from someone in virtually every specialty at this point.

 

[Law2Doc]

...
I think most people who go into medicine do it because of a personal interest in the stuff (along some influence from money/prestige). I don't think ANYONE goes into medicine for a cushy lifestyle. ...

It would be nice if this was the case, but if you read pre-allo a bit more, you will see that many many people go into medicine primarily for unsustainable reasons, such as income, prestige, wide-eyed altruism or family pressure. These are the folks that tend to complain the most, and become a cancer to the profession, when they find that they don't get a lot of what they were seeking. The folks with genuine interest in the career tend to be the happiest. But they won't be the only folks you are going to come across on this path by any stretch of the imagination.

 

[moto_za]

To the OP or anyone who is/went through med school: What would you have done instead??

 

[Lokhtar]

Sure but you miss my point, the "average" lawyer who could have gotten into a US allo med school and who puts in the same effort in law school as a person tends to in med school more typically starts in the low six digits. The rest of the folks, those who pull down the average to a lousy income, are not comparable, any more than someone who mops up at the mini-mart can be fairly compared to a Rhodes scholar. When you take two very distinct groups like law (where folks with a C+ average and mediocre work ethic can still get in), and medicine, where the average is better than a B+, half of all applicants, after a high degree of self selection don't get in, and people with bad work ethics need not apply), you have to truncate the law group pretty significantly to make them similar or else you have an apples, oranges comparison.

Considering how much trouble people have with the VR of the MCAT, I am not sure if Top14 law LSAT score is really a valid option for the majority of US Allo students, so I don't think the comparison is apt....

Having taken both exams, VR was cake.

As for post law school, law firms do not have 80 hour workweek rule, even a mild one. The billable hour race at the top firms (where you're talking about the six figure salary) is soul crushingly intense.

 

[Brigade4Radiant]

You gotta compare apples and oranges. The folks who worked hard enough in undergrad and then med school to become doctors are not those who end up $45k/year lawyers. The starting salary at bigger firms is in the $140-160k range. And that's with only 3 years of professional schooling, and no residency. The dudes earning $45k would not have gotten into a US allo med school -- law school spots are so numerous that many fill up with C+ students. The fact that there is a glut on the market means that there are many at the low end who will get nothing, or very low paying gigs. But since these folks would not have been competitive for med school, you cannot really use them in the average when comparing one's potential in law versus medicine. You need to compare apples to apples. So you need to truncate the group to those who could have chosen law or medicine, which pretty much means IMHO the top half of the top twenty law programs and the folks who got law review at the other schools. And the average for these folks is to start at six digits. Having been to law school I can tell you that most people don't work as hard as med students, and most would not have made the cut for US allo. So throw out that $45k number, that's not what the comparable group would get. (Atul Gawande made the similar point in one of his New York Times magazine articles a few years back, it's not just my opinion FWIW, although from my personal experience I have some firsthand knowledge of the folks who have gone through both sets of schooling).

Alright stop the presses. You obviously don't know what the law profession is going through. Law school is no cake walk and is pretty difficult. The careers for Medicine are way better than Law. You didn't like law so you switched to medicine which is a pretty big switch. Yes that $45K number is practical you need to be at a T14 and work around 60 hours a week to make about $120k.
Also getting into a T14 school is almost as hard or the same difficulty as getting into an Allo School. Yes the LSAT is easier than the MCAT but that doesn't mean you'll do that well on it. Also we are comparing physcian salary to law you don't have to go to Allopathic school to be a physician you can go Osteopathic or Caribiean for family medicine which means as an Attending you will make $120k starting.

Lawyers are lucky to make 60k starting out now.

http://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=3301274

Tell them otherwise.

Also people who get into the T1 schools have GPA's of 3.6+ sure Medschool is hard but LawSchool is harder than college and grades are curved. Also you are talking about 60k-100k in debt.

 

[surftheiop]

Every physician I have meet or shadowed really loves their career.

Almost all of them will say that its not worth it if your primary concern is the money. (Not that medicine doesn't provide a great financial situation, but they say that people overestimate how happy money will make them)

Granted 3 of the physicians I shadowed make less than 125K a year by choosing to working in academics, so they probably are not the type of people who are overly concerned with money in the first place.

 

[Law2Doc]

Alright stop the presses. You obviously don't know what the law profession is going through. ...

Um, actually I'm still plugged into that world pretty significantly, and disagree.

 

[Law2Doc]

...
As for post law school, law firms do not have 80 hour workweek rule, even a mild one. The billable hour race at the top firms (where you're talking about the six figure salary) is soul crushingly intense.

Again, my point was that the folks who work as hard in law as one would in medicine get these jobs, so we don't really disagree.

However, having worked in both settings (the "soul crushing" law firm billable hour setting vs the 80 hour work week residency setting), I have to say that residency is harder. Sure in law you will have to put in the long hours periodically, but it's nothing like an every 4th night 30 hour shift you frequently get in residency. You get to go home almost every night in law, late though it might be from time to time, you absolutely will not in residency. You are going to be far more sleep deprived in residency. You have control over your schedule to a much greater degree in law -- you can, for the most part, start later and leave later or start early and leave earlier, take time to go meet folks for lunch, etc., so long as you meet your hour requirements, something you cannot do in a residency. And you will tend to have more bosses and more people who don't feel uncomfortable lashing out at you in residency, something deemed unprofessional in law. So no, I can say from personal experience that law is the MUCH easier lifestyle, even in these big firms), and even if from time to time you are hitting 100 hours/week. (Which you may do in both careers, BTW-- the 80 hour week is averaged over a month). There's really no comparison -- internship is harder than being a young associate at a big law firm.

 

[Brigade4Radiant]

Again, my point was that the folks who work as hard in law as one would in medicine get these jobs, so we don't really disagree.

However, having worked in both settings (the "soul crushing" law firm billable hour setting vs the 80 hour work week residency setting), I have to say that residency is harder. Sure in law you will have to put in the long hours periodically, but it's nothing like an every 4th night 30 hour shift you frequently get in residency. You get to go home almost every night in law, late though it might be from time to time, you absolutely will not in residency. You are going to be far more sleep deprived in residency. You have control over your schedule to a much greater degree in law -- you can, for the most part, start later and leave later or start early and leave earlier, take time to go meet folks for lunch, etc., so long as you meet your hour requirements, something you cannot do in a residency. And you will tend to have more bosses and more people who don't feel uncomfortable lashing out at you in residency, something deemed unprofessional in law. So no, I can say from personal experience that law is the MUCH easier lifestyle, even in these big firms), and even if from time to time you are hitting 100 hours/week. (Which you may do in both careers, BTW-- the 80 hour week is averaged over a month). There's really no comparison -- internship is harder than being a young associate at a big law firm.

Residency is a training period 3-4 years then add more for fellowship. Lawyers usually have to keep working around 60-70 hour weeks at big firms for 10+ years. Also hard work doesn't equal success in the slightest. One needs opportunity and a multitude of other factors to be succesful. Vet students work just as hard as Medstudents yet the salaries are not the same at all. And you were lucky to say that your boss didn't lash out at you. Partners get incredibly angry some days and will through major temper tantrums if lets say their business cards don't come in.

Also their is no light at the end of the tunnel if one hopes to become partner.

 

[morning]

Sure but you miss my point, the "average" lawyer who could have gotten into a US allo med school and who puts in the same effort in law school as a person tends to in med school more typically starts in the low six digits. The rest of the folks, those who pull down the average to a lousy income, are not comparable, any more than someone who mops up at the mini-mart can be fairly compared to a Rhodes scholar. When you take two very distinct groups like law (where folks with a C+ average and mediocre work ethic can still get in), and medicine, where the average is better than a B+, half of all applicants, after a high degree of self selection don't get in, and people with bad work ethics need not apply), you have to truncate the law group pretty significantly to make them similar or else you have an apples, oranges comparison. The question posed here is really only about how someone who can get into med school might fare if he put that same effort into law, so data on how a slacker who squeaked into a bottom law school and didn't apply himself does really doesn't belong here.

So I'm comfortable in saying that the group of lawyers who also would get into and thrive in med school are the same group who come out of law school to the six digit starting salaries. I know this from my experience at both schoolings, and knowing numerous folks in the law industry at a variety of salaries, and their career trajectories. The national average data is meaningless here because there are many many more lawyers than doctors graduating each year, the percentage of applicants who find their way into law school is far more significant than those who go to US allo med schools, there are few self selecting hurdles the way there are to get into med school, and as a result, you will find very many mediocre law students, having come to law school with gentleman's C's and not really working that hard to excel once they get there. So to make a fair comparison, you have to make drastic cuts, and IMHO look at the top half of the top schools, and the folks who grade onto law review everywhere else. Because those are the people who would have made it into and through med school. The rest, not so much. And that would be your apples to apples comparison here. And these folks get the big city, big firm jobs, that pay six digits. And again, this isn't just my opinion, Atul Gawande, author of Complications, made pretty much the same argument a few years back in one of his publications. Nuff said.

Don't know if this is necessarily true. Both law and business require way more people skills than medicine. Yeah, I know, medicine requires a lot of work with people...but I have known quite a few totally socially inept/malignant medical students, residents, and doctors. It's probably not their fault. Maybe it's just an outcome of the intense workload of medicine, and they'd be different people if they went into a different field. But as it is, there are many medical students who would NOT thrive in a different career. Doctors have a VERY specific, focused skill set, and it suits some personalities to a T.

The worst part is people think that having majored in a science degree and then gone into a scientific field where you live and breathe more science every single day qualifies them to pontificate on social issues like someone with an MSW/DSW or a PhD in sociology/anthropology/psychology/etc. Trying to convince people that an M.D. doesn't make them an expert on sociology...or political science...or pretty much anything outside of medicine...it's just a hilariously inefficient use of personal time. An MD is an MD. It doesn't make you an expert on the known universe, and it doesn't mean you could have done ANYTHING with your life and succeeded.

 

[Xcellerator]

A General Surgeon that I shadowed told me it isn't worth it anymore. Working twice as hard and long to earn the same pay 10-20ish years ago. Long hours in residencies and Obama's new healthcare bill made him uncertain of the future. :/

 

[kjhherg]

To the OP or anyone who is/went through med school: What would you have done instead??

bump

 

[jvesco22]

What's funny about Law2Doc is that in this thread he says students that are competent enough to get into med school would be the one's who earn mega bucks after graduating law school. However, when premeds talk about wanting to go into any of the competitive specialties in medicine, he says they should basically not even think of it and come to terms with them probably settling for primary care. You can't make blanket statements saying a student would shine after law school yet be only mediocre after med school...It's as if you twist your assumptions of students capabilities according to your agenda.

And to the OP. Your thread is nothing but a rant we've heard many times before. What exactly makes this rant "A must read for all premeds?" Really?

 

[mcgyver]

What's funny about Law2Doc is that in this thread he says students that are competent enough to get into med school would be the one's who earn mega bucks after graduating law school. However, when premeds talk about wanting to go into any of the competitive specialties in medicine, he says they should basically not even think of it and come to terms with them probably settling for primary care. You can't make blanket statements saying a student would shine after law school yet be only mediocre after med school...It's as if you twist your assumptions of students capabilities according to your agenda.

And to the OP. Your thread is nothing but a rant we've heard many times before. What exactly makes this rant "A must read for all premeds?" Really?

life is not worth it! all human beings must read!

 

[tabascosauce]

Dont let some stupid paycheck define you. let the chips fall where they may!!!!!!

 

[Charles_Carmichael]

What's funny about Law2Doc is that in this thread he says students that are competent enough to get into med school would be the one's who earn mega bucks after graduating law school. However, when premeds talk about wanting to go into any of the competitive specialties in medicine, he says they should basically not even think of it and come to terms with them probably settling for primary care. You can't make blanket statements saying a student would shine after law school yet be only mediocre after med school...It's as if you twist your assumptions of students capabilities according to your agenda.

I'm a little confused...how exactly is L2D twisting assumptions according to his agenda?

From what I understand, L2D said that the average med student would likely be successful in getting into top law schools/doing well in law school. These are the ones who'll do well in terms of making money in the real world. In terms of medicine alone, specialties like rads, radonc, derm, plastics, etc, are ridiculously competitive. For the most part (with exceptions of course), the average med student will not be able to match into these specialties. You know, the same average med student who would be successful in law. What L2D is essentially saying is that the pool of med students, on average, are good enough to get into law and be successful. However, within this pool of med students, it's only a small percentage who get into the competitive specialties because, for the most part, you have to be a superstar in med school to be able to match into them. Feel free to correct me if I'm completely misreading L2D's posts.

I don't see any twisting of assumptions. What he/she said seems pretty clear to me. Maybe you can clarify further?

 

[jvesco22]

I'm a little confused...how exactly is L2D twisting assumptions according to his agenda?

From what I understand, L2D said that the average med student would likely be successful in getting into top law schools/doing well in law school. These are the ones who'll do well in terms of making money in the real world. In terms of medicine alone, specialties like rads, radonc, derm, plastics, etc, are ridiculously competitive. For the most part (with exceptions of course), the average med student will not be able to match into these specialties. You know, the same average med student who would be successful in law. What L2D is essentially saying is that the pool of med students, on average, are good enough to get into law and be successful. However, within this pool of med students, it's only a small percentage who get into the competitive specialties because, for the most part, you have to be a superstar in med school to be able to match into them. Feel free to correct me if I'm completely misreading L2D's posts.

I don't see any twisting of assumptions. What he/she said seems pretty clear to me. Maybe you can clarify further?

yeh, because being able to memorize things and do research in a lab translates into to you rising to the top in big law. If that was the case, why are the ROAD capable med students even in med school? With your logic, they could easily go to law school and become instant millionaires, dare I say billionaires?

Please feel free to correct me if I'm completely misreading your post...

 

[zebalong]

I just have a quick thing to point out about physician salaries. Background: I work at a teaching hospital as in a nursing management position in the cali bay area- the west coast is known to be on the lower side of physician salaries. Talking to both internal medicine residents and emergency residents that just graduated they all took jobs a lot larger salaries then what is posted. The internal medicine residents took jobs along the west coast for salaries all around 250k, one of them is moving back to colorado tho and go a hospitalist with pcp position has to work some call but got a sweet deal of 300k with bonuses.

The EM residents i work with got about the same salaries with one in florida being the exception (350k) each work for 32 hours/week. This is the fourth year where i've asked the residents who were willing to disclose, what sort of job offers they were receiving.. it doesn't seem as bad as everyone makes it out to be. Almost every graduate seems happy with their choice with the exception of a few who realized that medicine wasn't for them.

 

[FIREitUP]

It would be nice if this was the case, but if you read pre-allo a bit more, you will see that many many people go into medicine primarily for unsustainable reasons, such as income, prestige, wide-eyed altruism or family pressure. These are the folks that tend to complain the most, and become a cancer to the profession, when they find that they don't get a lot of what they were seeking. The folks with genuine interest in the career tend to be the happiest. But they won't be the only folks you are going to come across on this path by any stretch of the imagination.

I disagree with this post. I think there are a lot of physicians who genuinely love interacting with patients, love using their medical knowledge to provide interventions to save/improve patients lives. But I think that the medical profession frustrates them. They can't get authorization from health insurance for a necessary procedure. Health insurance/medicare denying claims. Having to go through all this unnecessary nonsense so the CEO of Aetna can have a gold plated fountain in the entrance of his home.
This, coupled with the fact that we can't let our 100 year old grandmother with mush as brains off the ventilator so we can actually treat people who need it. I'm not saying that there are physicians who come into medicine on through motivations that are not necessarily "pure", but to dismiss physicians' frustrations as a result of being misguided is asinine.
This thread just needs to acknowledge that medicine, like many other professions, has BS. What makes it harder, I think, is the fact that providing care to patients in need is what many physicians want to accomplish, and oftentimes this BS gets in the way of that. [/End thread]

 

[LeftyUM]

I wonder if anyone actually switches careers after reading this? I am pretty sure NOTHING happens and the rant the OP posted was to A. Get it off his/her chest. B. Part of the ritual of SDN residents to post discontent with medicine in pre-allo forum. or C. be a troll.

I pick.....

 

[ILikeDrugs]

I don't give a shet about any of that because I'm gonna be ballin' as radiologist partner. Word.

Check out my future living room.
Just a small glimpse of what's to come.

 

[GoLytely]

I don't give a shet about any of that because I'm gonna be ballin' as radiologist partner. Word.

Check out my future living room.
Just a small glimpse of what's to come.

If you're truly a pre-health student, let me know how that living room looks in 9 years, when you're finally supposed to make that salary you've been counting on, but care has been rationed so severely that you'll have no films to read and bill for. The scans that the government DOES deem necessary will be outsourced to India.

Goooo radiology! Oh, and people will think that you and the rad tech are the exact same person. A radiologist is a doctor? Reallllly?!?!

 

[Charles_Carmichael]

yeh, because being able to memorize things and do research in a lab translates into to you rising to the top in big law. If that was the case, why are the ROAD capable med students even in med school? With your logic, they could easily go to law school and become instant millionaires, dare I say billionaires?

Please feel free to correct me if I'm completely misreading your post...

Unfortunately, I think you did misread my post. I never said that the ability to memorize or think critically (which research requires a fair amount of) translates to rising to the top in big law.

What I'm talking about, and what is much harder to quantify, is the work ethic of med students. I'm a firm believer in the idea that working hard is the most important ingredient for being successful. Being smart, etc, can help, but ultimately (on average, of course), the harder you work, the greater the payoffs. While I haven't been to med school (yet), it seems to require people to work fairly hard to do well in classes, Step I, rotations, etc. It requires you to both work hard and work hard for a long time. From what many med students/residents have said, you have to work pretty hard to even pass, not just to be at the top of the class.

It's this work ethic that I'm talking about which will likely translate over to success in any other profession. Not the ability to memorize molecular pathways, laws, whatever. And, my impression of L2Ds posts was that he/she is also talking about this work ethic, not memorizing/doing research. Hope this clears things up for you.

 

[Narmerguy]

yeh, because being able to memorize things and do research in a lab translates into to you rising to the top in big law. If that was the case, why are the ROAD capable med students even in med school? With your logic, they could easily go to law school and become instant millionaires, dare I say billionaires?

Please feel free to correct me if I'm completely misreading your post...

But law students have some magical special skill set unobtainable by med students?

Unfortunately, I think you did misread my post. I never said that the ability to memorize or think critically (which research requires a fair amount of) translates to rising to the top in big law.

What I'm talking about, and what is much harder to quantify, is the work ethic of med students. I'm a firm believer in the idea that working hard is the most important ingredient for being successful. Being smart, etc, can help, but ultimately (on average, of course), the harder you work, the greater the payoffs. While I haven't been to med school (yet), it seems to require people to work fairly hard to do well in classes, Step I, rotations, etc. It requires you to both work hard and work hard for a long time. From what many med students/residents have said, you have to work pretty hard to even pass, not just to be at the top of the class.

It's this work ethic that I'm talking about which will likely translate over to success in any other profession. Not the ability to memorize molecular pathways, laws, whatever. And, my impression of L2Ds posts was that he/she is also talking about this work ethic, not memorizing/doing research. Hope this clears things up for you.

This. Most of what separates people who do well in any track or career they pursue is work ethic and desire. I think it's very reasonable to assume that if premeds put the same work into crafting and preparing themselves for medical school that they would excel at getting into the top law schools. Frustrating though they can be, premeds as a group are usually the most hardworking groups of students one encounters.

 

[ronaldo23]

Don't know if this is necessarily true. Both law and business require way more people skills than medicine. Yeah, I know, medicine requires a lot of work with people...but I have known quite a few totally socially inept/malignant medical students, residents, and doctors. It's probably not their fault. Maybe it's just an outcome of the intense workload of medicine, and they'd be different people if they went into a different field. But as it is, there are many medical students who would NOT thrive in a different career. Doctors have a VERY specific, focused skill set, and it suits some personalities to a T.

The worst part is people think that having majored in a science degree and then gone into a scientific field where you live and breathe more science every single day qualifies them to pontificate on social issues like someone with an MSW/DSW or a PhD in sociology/anthropology/psychology/etc. Trying to convince people that an M.D. doesn't make them an expert on sociology...or political science...or pretty much anything outside of medicine...it's just a hilariously inefficient use of personal time. An MD is an MD. It doesn't make you an expert on the known universe, and it doesn't mean you could have done ANYTHING with your life and succeeded.

Agreed. Many of my pre-med friends would dominate bio classes and then have tons of trouble in, say, philosophy classes, especially when trying to debate/argue and write papers. Nothing wrong with that: it's just a different world to them, in the same way that orgo is completely different to a philosophy major. Just because a pre-med has a strong work ethic hardly implies that he has an intelligence that is theoretically transferrable to any field. In the same way, there is nothing to suggest a Harvard Law graduate or I-banker who busts their ass 80-100 hours a week would be able to cut it in medicine, just because they are among the top 5% of students. A pre-med who applies his same work ethic may end in a mediocre law school and lousy job just based on the fact that he wasn't cut out for law: it just might not cater to his abilities as medicine did. Work ethic is important, but one of many factors in play here.

You are right, Law2Doc, that in some cases it may be fair to compare top lawyers to a medical doctor. On a theoretical level, a pre-med student would make it into a top law school/six-figure salary if they wanted, based on their work ethic. But while you can try to standardize to compare "apples to apples," there are still too many assumptions on a practical level: what if the MD happens to be inept at anything nonscience? What if the Harvard lawyer hates blood or has no interest in diseases? Because of all these intangible variables, it ultimately becomes an "apples to oranges" comparison again between medicine vs. X field.

 

[addo]

Ok, i am going to admit that at one point medicine seemed like the perfect job. Ive come to find out it is not- not through this thread, but this thread certainly helped. Anyways find me a job with no flaws or drawbacks, and Ill take that job. Professional sports, and business jobs are out of the question....

 

[ILikeDrugs]

If you're truly a pre-health student, let me know how that living room looks in 9 years, when you're finally supposed to make that salary you've been counting on, but care has been rationed so severely that you'll have no films to read and bill for. The scans that the government DOES deem necessary will be outsourced to India.

Goooo radiology! Oh, and people will think that you and the rad tech are the exact same person. A radiologist is a doctor? Reallllly?!?!

LOL. Someone isn't very good at detecting sarcasm. You seem pretty bitter and uptight.

About the outsourcing thing, interventional radiology can't be outsourced unless someone has figured out a way to prod you from across the Pacific. As far as diagnostic rads being outsourced is concerned, nothing but scare tactics and hurf durf from disgruntled MDs such as yourself. Are you Dr. Nostradamus?

And about the prestige, "I WANT EVERYONE TO KNOW THAT IM A DOCTOR!!", thing, lmao. Some of us don't go around trying to up-show everyone around us. Some of us are fine just being people with a job. I've been mistaken for a hispanic gardener in front of my own house while mowing my lawn. Did that upset me? No, it was funny. I've been mistaken for a doctor at the hospital that worked at. (I have no idea why either.) Did I feel special? No, I thought it was funny. Guess how much I care about "prestige"?

 

[45408]

Residency is a training period 3-4 years then add more for fellowship. Lawyers usually have to keep working around 60-70 hour weeks at big firms for 10+ years

Also their is no light at the end of the tunnel if one hopes to become partner.

There are quite a few attendings working 60-70 hours/week. One of the private practice surgeons I worked with said he works close to 80 hours/week. Long hours don't end with residency.

There's definitely no light at the end of the tunnel if you want to become a department chairman or run your own big lab.

 

[LebLlama]

I ask the doctor Im currently shadowing if it was all worth it once. He thought silently for about 1 minute, then he teared up and squeaked out "No". He then crawled onto the floor to corner of his office, got in the fetal position, and starting sucking his thumb.

 

[gluon999]

Some people had asked what I would've done other then med school. Well, I could've continued the job I had before school, in a leading bio-tech company. I am pretty sure if I put in the same effort in the job that I put in med school, I could've landed at least 1 or 2 promotions by now and be close to making 6 figures. That is a lot of lost opportunity cost (in terms of income, school loans, time) considering that this sum compounded over 40 years would make a tremendous impact on retirement.

But even though I am an MD now, I am still not sure about the future of my field and Medicine in general. But it doesn't look so gloomy after this healthcare bill. You think healthcare is expensive now, wait till there are 40 million people more in the market. If they each get lab work, CT scans, MRIs, hospital admissions once a year, imagine how much that is going to cost the system. There is no way this system can survive the next few years unless increasing rationing occurs. But how would that jive with you as a physician?

"Mr. Smith, I cannot guarantee 100% that your chest pain is not a heart attack, but CMS wouldn't be pleased if I ordered that $10,000 workup. So just go home and sleep it off."

 

[Parts Unknown]

But even though I am an MD now, I am still not sure about the future of my field and Medicine in general. But it doesn't look so gloomy after this healthcare bill. You think healthcare is expensive now, wait till there are 40 million people more in the market. If they each get lab work, CT scans, MRIs, hospital admissions once a year, imagine how much that is going to cost the system.

How much care are those millions of people currently receiving?

"Mr. Smith, I cannot guarantee 100% that your chest pain is not a heart attack, but CMS wouldn't be pleased if I ordered that $10,000 workup. So just go home and sleep it off."

Now we're just fearmongering.

 

[morning]

Some people had asked what I would've done other then med school. Well, I could've continued the job I had before school, in a leading bio-tech company. I am pretty sure if I put in the same effort in the job that I put in med school, I could've landed at least 1 or 2 promotions by now and be close to making 6 figures. That is a lot of lost opportunity cost (in terms of income, school loans, time) considering that this sum compounded over 40 years would make a tremendous impact on retirement.

But even though I am an MD now, I am still not sure about the future of my field and Medicine in general. But it doesn't look so gloomy after this healthcare bill. You think healthcare is expensive now, wait till there are 40 million people more in the market. If they each get lab work, CT scans, MRIs, hospital admissions once a year, imagine how much that is going to cost the system. There is no way this system can survive the next few years unless increasing rationing occurs. But how would that jive with you as a physician?

"Mr. Smith, I cannot guarantee 100% that your chest pain is not a heart attack, but CMS wouldn't be pleased if I ordered that $10,000 workup. So just go home and sleep it off."

You don't even make sense. You're just throwing out non sequiturs with no linking coherence. Uncontrollable verbal diarrhea, as it were.

You think we should transition to a cash-only system, AND you think people should be able to get that $10,000 workup if they need it? I don't know of a single person with $10,000 to spare on a heart attack.

You think WAY too many tests are ordered, but you disapprove of "rationing"?

I think before you post you should create an outline of what you're going to say and a brief summary of what you've already said, and if you notice any glaring contradictions, correct them first.

Yes, hospitals cut their costs by hiring PAs and NPs b/c they have to pay them less than a physician. Subsequently, PAs and NPs cost the country more b/c they drive up the cost of healthcare by ordering way more unindicated tests than physicians. If you want proof, just spend a day working at a hospital.

See above.

 

[Parts Unknown]

You think we should transition to a cash-only system, AND you think people should be able to get that $10,000 workup if they need it? I don't know of a single person with $10,000 to spare on a heart attack.

I don't know where this person allegedly went to medical school, but an initial workup for a suspected MI can be done with an EKG and two common laboratory tests (blood levels of CK-MB and Troponin I).

 

[gluon999]

You don't even make sense. You're just throwing out non sequiturs with no linking coherence. Uncontrollable verbal diarrhea, as it were.

You think we should transition to a cash-only system, AND you think people should be able to get that $10,000 workup if they need it? I don't know of a single person with $10,000 to spare on a heart attack.

You think WAY too many tests are ordered, but you disapprove of "rationing"?

I think before you post you should create an outline of what you're going to say and a brief summary of what you've already said, and if you notice any glaring contradictions, correct them first.


See above.

It is just sad how naive you are. If you think my thoughts are incoherent, you are in for a big surprise once you start 3rd year of med school. These aren't just my ideas and thoughts. I am stating the current state of health care. For example, there are hundreds of physicians who are already practicing concierge medicine and many more who are contemplating it. But I do want to make it clear that right now, cash based practices are amenable to primary care only. You are confusing that with Emergency Medicine and specialty care. There is a big difference in acuity and depth of Medicine involved between the three.

And why shouldn't I disapprove of rationing? After all, it is my license on the line if I don't order that test and there is an adverse outcome. Rationing will only be an option if real tort reform comes to fruition, not the sorry excuse that tort law is currently. You really need to get your head out of fantasy land. The system is way more convoluted than your brain can comprehend.

I don't know where this person allegedly went to medical school, but an initial workup for a suspected MI can be done with an EKG and two common laboratory tests (blood levels of CK-MB and Troponin I).

Have you ever seen an ED bill? Just by virtue of being in the ED, the bill skyrockets to the thousands. You will be billed a ridiculous amount to make up for all the people that abuse the ER and don't pay. You should also know how important it is to consider a differential diagnosis and rule out other potentially fatal processes such as Aortic Dissection and PE. You don't think the ER doc will go ahead and order that CT angio? Did you ever work in an ED? What zero liability state do you live in? I want to practice there.