Did any physician ever tell you it is not worth it? A must read for all premeds

[Parts Unknown]

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I make twice the amount you do, have twice the vacation you do, and my gf is way hotter than yours.

Which makes it even more strange that you're chronically unhappy, to the point where you feel compelled to piss, whine, and brag to a bunch of college students on an anonymous discussion forum.

 

[morning]

I have full access to the rads' transcribed reports, and most of the time, for simple CT/MRI studies the techs are dead-on.

Although I do agree with you. One can't know what one doesn't know.

They are not qualified to determine what a SIMPLE scan looks like. There could always be something they DON'T see. It doesn't become a "simple" or obvious result until the radiologist looks at it and verifies that there's nothing subtle and weird going on.

I make twice the amount you do, have twice the vacation you do, and my gf is way hotter than yours. Eat s***.

 

[mfrizzo3]

I make twice the amount you do, have twice the vacation you do, and my gf is way hotter than yours. Eat s***.

Which makes it even more strange that you're chronically unhappy, to the point where you feel compelled to piss, whine, and brag to a bunch of college students on an anonymous discussion forum.

 

[searun]

Anyone who thinks that all docs hate their work need to spend some time talking to pediatric academic specialists.

And, go Buckeyes! I could spend my retirement watching the Buckeyes pound Michigan every year in football....😛

Then you can expect to enjoy a very pleasant retirement. I say this without rancor, since Ohio State pounded my beloved Oregon Ducks in the Rose Bowl earlier this year. My heart was broken and I was clinically depressed for two months.

 

[miabullitt]

I think that is called fraud.....

How if the pt needs the test? You're just being more defensive by ordering extra tests. Wouldn't being more defensive benefit the Dr?

Example PT comes in with a minor headache but has history of head trauma... I've seen them leave the office with tylenol but the proper thing to do would be to order a CT scan correct? and inturn wouldnt you as a Dr earn more?

 

[Slack3r]

Law School - Pretty much need to go to a Top 20 school if you want those high paying corporate/big firm jobs. The average salary is ****. So while being a lawyer has a higher ceiling than being a doctor, vast majority of lawyers don't have it that good.

PhD- Again not very lucrative at all. Few get faculty positions and even then gaining tenure takes SOOOO LONG. If you work at a big name private school like Stanford then you'll be pretty decently compensated. But say you are at UC Berkeley or a big name public institution, chances are you are making 70K max.... Lecturers/Associate Professors even less.... With the current economic situation, many Phds are doing entry level lab assistant jobs...

Veterinary Medicine- To be honest, I don't know much about this field. But the quote post says 70K, which sucks. B/c vets have a 4 year program as well (also I hear it is very competitive to get into vet school).

MBA- This field probably has the highest ceiling, but again you have to be a Stanford/Harvard/Sloan/U Penn grad to really make a lot of money. Vast majority of MBAs don't do crap with their degree.

Ah yes, the usual careers of SDN. You forgot iBanking though.

 

[476515678234896]

ever since i realized how much medicine sucks and that dentistry doesn't....the future seems pretty bright. 4 day weeks, low stress, get called doctor, more autonomy than physicians, no call, more $/hr, optional residency, reform isn't significant to dentistry, awesome lifestyle....the list goes on.

 

[Slack3r]

ever since i realized how much medicine sucks and that dentistry doesn't....the future seems pretty bright. 4 day weeks, low stress, get called doctor, more autonomy than physicians, no call, more $/hr....the list goes on.

Dentistry sucks, too. Just for a different set of reasons.

 

[476515678234896]

Dentistry sucks, too. Just for a different set of reasons.

of course, those reasons matter less to me than working my ass off for the rest of my life.

 

[Parts Unknown]

ever since i realized how much medicine sucks and that dentistry doesn't....the future seems pretty bright. 4 day weeks, low stress, get called doctor, more autonomy than physicians, no call, more $/hr, optional residency, reform isn't significant to dentistry, awesome lifestyle....the list goes on.

Sorry...

Local Prostitues Eagerly Await Dentists' Convention

"It's strange, really," said Cherry Caldwell, who will be working her seventh NJDA convention. "Most guys want something a little kinky when they come to Vegas–something they can't get from their wives or girlfriends. But not the dentists. It's almost as if it's enough for them just to have sex with a girl."

 

[476515678234896]

Sorry...

Local Prostitues Eagerly Await Dentists' Convention

 

[WholeLottaGame7]

Which makes it even more strange that you're chronically unhappy, to the point where you feel compelled to piss, whine, and brag to a bunch of college students on an anonymous discussion forum.

In honor of the upcoming World Cup:

 

[AD28]

Before someone reads my reply and chalks it up to me being a "naive pre-med", I want to say that I don't believe medicine is peachy keen and totally awesome. In fact, I have a major problem with many of the things you've listed, and I think you're right to complain about them, but you have no consistency in your argument and that is a problem.

Your post is yet another shining beacon of cognitive dissonance beaming out of the trash pile of SDN misery.

Things you DON'T want the government to regulate: Your salary.

Things you DO want the government to regulate: Malpractice lawsuits. School debt. Nurse practitioners.

Things you like: Private insurance.

Things you hate: Private insurance.

Are you FOR "government takeover" of health care, or are you against it? If you were truly for the free market you wouldn't be $$$ching about insurance companies. They are protecting THEIR bottom line from YOU, which is the essence of capitalism. You don't like midlevels encroaching on your turf? That's capitalism, dude. They provide a service for less money. Of course hospitals and physicians are going to employ them. Once again, it's about THEIR money (the hospitals and other employers of midlevels), not YOUR livelihood. Same for malpractice lawsuits - you want those heavily regulated, robbing lawyers of their paychecks, for your benefit.

In fact, the only thing you DON'T want government cutting in on is your salary. When you get down to it, everything else is perfectly fine with you. You're BEGGING for regulation of everything besides your reimbursement rates.

TRUTH BULLETS RIGHT HERE!! 👍

 

[FIREitUP]

Sorry...

Local Prostitues Eagerly Await Dentists' Convention

oh man...that was really low...

at the same time it is the onion, which is not internationally known as a proprietor of legitimate news. it says, "Prostitutes have long known that the average dentist, while earning almost $60,000 per year, is not generally respected by the public at large."

Dentists make twice that sum; i doubt that ten years ago they only made 60k (when the article was published).

 

[Brigade4Radiant]

I make twice the amount you do, have twice the vacation you do, and my gf is way hotter than yours. Eat s***.

Yet you still complain constantly on a pre-med forum telling people not to go into the field when you yourself do not explain what else you would have done. It just leads me to believe that you are a fool who didn't have the insight to see a field in which you would be miserable. I kinda feel sorry for you if you are real. I mean even with all that money and your "hot" girlfriend you are still trapped in your own hell

 

[jvesco22]

Sorry...

Local Prostitues Eagerly Await Dentists' Convention

"Prostitutes have long known that the average dentist, while earning almost $60,000 per year, is not generally respected by the public at large. Neither an admired craftsman nor a full-fledged member of the medical community, the dentist, more than anyone short of the chiropractor, uses conventions as an opportunity to purchase emotional gratification in the form of sex."

Definitely worth quoting lol.

 

[Brigade4Radiant]

That's because the central theme of the analogy was about short sightedness, surgery has nothing to do with my overall point. Sad that you didn't understand that.

Sent on the Sprint® Now Network from my BlackBerry®

Wow you are dense. PAs and NP save money by treating populations that do not have many primary care doctors. That is not short sightedness.

 

[gluon999]

I have full access to the rads' transcribed reports, and most of the time, for simple CT/MRI studies the techs are dead-on.

Although I do agree with you. One can't know what one doesn't know.

Seriously man, WTF is a 'simple CT/MRI' and who determines that?

And as far as techs being dead-on, that drivel is not even worth commenting on.

I am an intensivist. If I want an MRI on my patient, what I do is order it.

And, lots of premeds shadow me all the time. I do recommend medicine to my children (but they will make up their own mind I think, like all children). I am reasonably happy with my field (neonatology). I have no intent on quitting for as long as I am healthy and able to work. What would I do? Sit on the internet all day?

thanks for asking!

In all fairness, you are not the typical doctor, the one who works in primary care on the front lines. Yes, no one will question your decision to order that MRI b/c you work in an ICU, but the PCP doesn't enjoy the same degree of freedom.

Wow you are dense. PAs and NP save money by treating populations that do not have many primary care doctors. That is not short sightedness.

Cbrons has it right, it is ENTIRELY shortsightedness.

Did you just skip the entire thread and jump to his/her post? I've already explained how PAs and NPs end up costing more money.

 

[jvesco22]

 

[Parts Unknown]

In all fairness, you are not the typical doctor, the one who works in primary care on the front lines. Yes, no one will question your decision to order that MRI b/c you work in an ICU, but the PCP doesn't enjoy the same degree of freedom.

Translation: my gross generalization has been contradicted by an attending physician. Therefore I will claim that said physician is not representative without presenting a single piece of data.

 

[md2bknox]

LOL my cousin in law told me that, and she was just talking about the intensity of the program. lol not all the other bureaucracy that goes along with it..sigh..i still press on though

 

[PreMedder]

ever since i realized how much medicine sucks and that dentistry doesn't....the future seems pretty bright. 4 day weeks, low stress, get called doctor, more autonomy than physicians, no call, more $/hr, optional residency, reform isn't significant to dentistry, awesome lifestyle....the list goes on.

Obviously you haven't seen The Hangover.

 

[476515678234896]

Obviously you haven't seen The Hangover.

 

[Jolie South]

Let's keep personal attacks out of this thread. It's ok to have opinions and disagree, but let's do so civilly.

 

[KTownGT]

Let's keep personal attacks out of this thread. It's ok to have opinions and disagree, but let's do so civilly.

But, have you not heard... NILF makes twice as much as you and other docs, has a hot gf, ballin' everyday, and gets vacation time EVERY year.

nobansplz 😛

 

[45408]

How if the pt needs the test? You're just being more defensive by ordering extra tests. Wouldn't being more defensive benefit the Dr?

Example PT comes in with a minor headache but has history of head trauma... I've seen them leave the office with tylenol but the proper thing to do would be to order a CT scan correct? and inturn wouldnt you as a Dr earn more?

No, you get nothing. If you did, they would be called "kickbacks," and those are illegal.

 

[pvmed]

.

 

[Kaustikos]

No, you get nothing. If you did, they would be called "kickbacks," and those are illegal.

No they're not. They're just frowned up, like masturbating in airplanes.

 

[fahimaz7]

I know people who get accepted with a 21 into D.O numerous people. Also you can't compare GRE to MCAT. Vets had the VCAT but they disbanded it. And vets learn the same amount of material as medstudents look at their course schedule. Your vetstudents were saying that to appease you not because they seriously believed it.

Since I've taken the GRE and the MCAT.. I think I can compare the two.


I don't think so. they lack a lot of the molecular medicine that we learn in medical school. They lack all of the psychosocial crap that we learn in medical school, and they also lack a lot of the pathology that we learn in medical school.

Why? B/c they don't ever have to treat those things. Even their residencies are shorter.

Good luck figuring out the difference between a board certified physician and a board certified vet is.


Then again, what would i know. I come from a family of 4 generations of vets and did my grad work with 4 DVM/PHD's on my committee (spent 4 years at Colorado State's Animal Cancer Center in the vet school and another year at the best Equine Orthopedic center in the country)

 

[squeegee]

Since I've taken the GRE and the MCAT.. I think I can compare the two.


I don't think so. they lack a lot of the molecular medicine that we learn in medical school. They lack all of the psychosocial crap that we learn in medical school, and they also lack a lot of the pathology that we learn in medical school.

Why? B/c they don't ever have to treat those things. Even their residencies are shorter.

Good luck figuring out the difference between a board certified physician and a board certified vet is.


Then again, what would i know. I come from a family of 4 generations of vets and did my grad work with 4 DVM/PHD's on my committee (spent 4 years at Colorado State's Animal Cancer Center in the vet school and another year at the best Equine Orthopedic center in the country)

Do we at least get credit for having to learn canine, feline, equine, bovine (+ other ruminants), avian and exotic species with regards to anatomy, drugs, disease susceptabilities, and treatment protocols? 😉

 

[fahimaz7]

Do we at least get credit for having to learn canine, feline, equine, bovine (+ other ruminants), avian and exotic species with regards to anatomy, drugs, disease susceptabilities, and treatment protocols? 😉

You guys learn a ton of information. My point is that it's different. Personally, I don't think you guys get the credit or salary that you deserve.

I also don't envy you for having to be a dentist, ob, surgeon, intern, etc.

 

[Instatewaiter]

What you're implying is that you know the techs I know, and you also know the rads I know. Cut that out.

Yeah 'cause knowing your techs would change my opinion 🙄

I have full access to the rads' transcribed reports, and most of the time, for simple CT/MRI studies the techs are dead-on.

Although I do agree with you. One can't know what one doesn't know.

Knowing when to shut up is a valuable skill. Learn it.

 

[45408]

No they're not. They're just frowned up, like masturbating in airplanes.

If you refer a patient to a particular facility for a CT, and they send you a $100 "kickback" as a "thank you for the referral" every time, I'm pretty sure that's fraud, which is definitely illegal.

 

[riverjib]

Before someone calls out troll, check my previous posts to know that I am definitely not one. Additionally, I just graduated medical school and therefore
have no vested interest in dissuading others from applying b/c I surely am not competing with you. Now to the topic, why is not worth it? Well, let me give
you a little background info. I worked hard in med school, did well, and this year I matched into a competitively field that is amongst the best paid specialties in medicine, and one that I find to be very fascinating and intellectually challenging. I am glad it worked out. However, it will LONG time before I will be 'rolling in the dough' especially with reimbursements being cut every year. Although I was excited when I got accepted, the exicetement has been fading away every year as I learn more and more how frustrating it has become to practice medicine. Let me outline some of the reasons why it ain't worth it IMO.

1) High debt. The avg. student's debt at the end of state funded med. school is about $150,000. If I recall correctly, that of a private school is ~$170,000. Interest rates start at 6.9% for subsidized loans and go up for private loans. Your med school loan cannot be discharged for life! i.e. this is not credit card debt which you can wipe out by claiming bankruptcy. Read the thread in the General residency forum about the MD who didn't pay his loans for about 20 years and how his license was suspended without him realizing it. Then he was arrested for prescribing medicines without a license.

2) Government takeover of healthcare. The medical system is going broke. Costs will continue to spiral out of control because docs will keep on ordering
every single test under the sun to "CYA" (cover your @$$). That just means that Medicare and private insurers will keep finding new ways to refuse
reimbursement to docs. Do some reading about the SGR and DRA (look it up on google/wiki). Did you know that just three days ago, a 21% reimbursement cut went into play? Yes, congress has been playing this game with the docs since the 90's. They would like nothing more than to have doctors working as govt. peons. Don't believe it? Ask any physician what they think about govt. run healthcare.

3) Lack of tort reform. Meaningful reform is probably not going to happen because the trial lawyers lobby is one of the biggest contributors to Democrats (and they take care of the Repubs too!). Politicians know better than to bite the hand that feeds them. That just means that docs will continue to get sued for the most frivolous reasons. Have some time on your hand? Read about the frivolous lawsuits and their outcomes http://www.jvra.com/ Even if docs win these suits, they still lose b/c of all the years invested in fighting these suits. And countersuing the patient and the lawyer is know to be a waste of time. Not to mention the ridiculous premiums that can go upwards of $250,000 per year in the most litigous parts of the country. The intellectual part about medicine dissapears when you are ordering shotgun tests for every patient, b/c even though 99 out 100 times your judgement may be correct, the one time you miss that intra-cranial bleed b/c you didn't think the patient needed a CT will come back to bite you with vengeance.

4) The dumbing down of healthcare. Nurse Practitioners and Physician's Assistants are gaining more and more independence every day. NPs are transitioning to DNPs which means they are going to Dr. Nurse and can call themselves Dr. XYZ in many states. NPs can also practice independently in many states. Many of them are arrogant and spread misinformation about how they know as much primary care physicians. The nurse's union is also VERY strong and B.O. loves them and has gone to bat for them. Everyone in the hospital wears a long white coat, except the medical student. Many hospital patients can't tell the doctor apart from the technician apart from the janitor (not to knock on janitors). Lets face it, NPs and PAs are the future of primary care. And all of you certainly can't be specialists b/c there aren't enough spots. Which means that you will be a 'Primary care Provider', not a 'Primary care Physician'.

5) Many patients are not appreciative of the care we provide. Many are abusive of the free care they receive. For example, spend one night working in the E.D. and you will see tons of repeat customers who complain of back/chest/stomach pain, then get the million dollar work up, get their opiod fix and leave, only to come back few days later. ER cannot turn away these patients without a proper workup. Lot of these patients do have several co-morbidities thus you cannot just blow them off b/c 1 out of 100 times, they actually might have some serious pathology that needs to be addressed. Thus the docs are stuck in a catch 22. Lot of these patients are self-pay (i.e. no pay). Sending them to collections isn't helpful b/c their credit histor is already mucked up to begin with. Patients think you are overpaid but they don't know all the hard work you have done and all the debt you have accumulated to be where you are.

6) The red tape is ridiculous. Ever try to get an MRI or CT for your clinic patient? Insurance companies will do everything they can to preven that from happening. You may have to argue on the phone with some punk who has been trained by the company to DENY BABY DENY anything that will cut into the companies bottom line: their profits! When working in the E.D., I'd see many patients who were told by their primary doc to go to the ER to get a CT scan b/c it was more convenient than to hassle with the insurance companies. NOt to mention, all the ridiculous forms that docs have to fill out every day to C.Y.A.


These are just some of the things that I've experienced or learned from other physicians during my last 4 years. I still have a lot of doubt in my mind about the future of Medicine. Even though I have matched in one of the 'nicer' fields, it won't be so nice when I am out practicing. Money isn't everything and I wouldn't even mind working for less money, but I cannot put up with the bureaucracy that has permeated medicine. Everyone wants to be the Monday morning quarter back that judges physicians but none of those chumps know what it is like to practice Medicine. Nonetheless, I do find Medicine to very interesting but unfortunately, for many docs, practicing 'real medicine' makes up only a fraction of their day. With that said, I implore you to talk to as many physicians as you can, in private practice and in the hospital setting. Shadow them, ask them whether they would recommend medicine to their children, whether they are happy with the current state of their field, whether they would quit if they could. If after that, you still want to practice medicine, then who am I to stop you? I wish someone had made a thread like this when I was applying. Maybe they did and I never paid attention. But if you are reading this, you have no excuse. Good luck to you!

LOL!!! Don't "knock on" janitors (great grammar there, newbie MD), but insult other HCPs. Clearly you didn't do your research before embarking on this great journey to be a physician. I started working in the field in 2001, before you started med school, and none of this was news then. Quit complaining.

 

[Rayhaan]

Yeah, my dad. Every day he asks me why I want to do this to myself.

 

[gluon999]

I started working in the field in 2001, before you started med school, and none of this was news then. Quit complaining.

So says the 'pre-med.' 🙄

 

[jvesco22]

So says the 'pre-med.' 🙄

You talk as if all pre-meds are 18 years old and fresh out of high school. Please continue crying as it is rather entertaining.

 

[morning]

So says the 'pre-med.' 🙄

http://forums.studentdoctor.net/forumdisplay.php?f=110

 

[gluon999]

You talk as if all pre-meds are 18 years old and fresh out of high school. Please continue crying as it is rather entertaining.

Frankly, I don't give a flying F what you think. Not everyone has 9+ years of experience before starting medical school. And this thread was created for those who lack that experience, as others have attested to finding this thread quite helpful. So speak for yourself punk!

http://forums.studentdoctor.net/forumdisplay.php?f=110[/IMG]

Ditto.

 

[moto_za]

So is dentistry the way to go? (serious question)

 

[premed3445]

.

 

[StartingoverVet]

No they're not. They're just frowned up, like masturbating in airplanes.

Masturbating on airplanes is illegal as well...
http://jezebel.com/5484114/man-arrested-for-jerking-off-in+flight

 

[FIREitUP]

Do we at least get credit for having to learn canine, feline, equine, bovine (+ other ruminants), avian and exotic species with regards to anatomy, drugs, disease susceptabilities, and treatment protocols? 😉

man i hear comparative anatomy is a killer. i have a ton of respect for vets; i also agree you guys get paid peanuts for what you put into it (unless you have a really successful private practice).

 

[TooMuchResearch]

I can relate to this one since I work for a government paid free clinic. At least most of the people in my village are generally nice people that generally only show up for consult for real reasons. I even give extra prescripctions for Naproxen and Paracetamol so that if another relative in the house gets a fever from a common cold or a backache, they will avoid giving me more work. I won't get supervised for where the meds go, but I do tell the patients in a sort of lie I get suspervised to avoid people from demanding me to give out penicillin to their second cousin that lives in god knows where that apparently has a cold. Sometimes I do demand to at least see the patient once in my lifetime to know if the person won't die from taking the drug or something. Self medication is kind of rampant in Mexico. I know a lady that can get legit Diazepam easier than getting gum. Amazing.

There are some annoying people though. The typical, poorly controlled diabetics that don't want to take their meds but come frequently to you for treatment of their neuropathy as if the preestablished 200 drugs the government send to my clinic will cure their problem (Carbamacepine isn't one of the 200 drugs). Kind of annoying to tell the person the same thing over and over again "Take your diabetes seriously and maybe the pain will improve a bit, if you wish to treat the neuropathy, I can make you a referral form to an internist". Oh, and the forms only work for 7 days so if you want the form, you better go get a consult tomorrow". The patients never request the form, go home sometimes even forgetting their diabetes meds at the clinic and show up another day for the exact same complaint. Then I get scolded by my superiors because not all of my patients are well controlled. At least I try to be polite and hope they don't end up with kidney failure or something while I'm still around.

Other patients have nothing, but they show up for their imaginary psychosomatic complaints because they know I work for free and if I don't treat their pointless consults with a smile on my face they will issue a complaint to my superiors for poor conduct on my part and I could get scolded (hasn't happened yet though). I got a huge delivery of folic acid that I didn't request from the government, I'm thinking of giving the stuff like candy canes to all of these time wasting consults to empty the shelves a bit. If the patients feel like I'm not giving them the best solution to their psychosomatic complaints, there's 3 private PCP doctors that will be glad to charge them 100 dollars to make them feel happy. I get requests at least once a week to put IV solutions with no meds of them because apparently saline solution 09% can cure all imaginary maladies. 🙄

I'm lucky that the people are generally tame in that respect though, most people that come for the pointless consults aren't rude or too demanding. I have doctor friends in other villages where the people are jerks. People in the villages forget that we don't have preestablished lunch breaks and get salaries that are so low it's barely enough money to survive. I'm doing a service to the community, but I need to like, eat lunch too. People sometimes knock on my door at 5 pm when I'm eating or taking a nap for consults and don't wish to pay me any fee for the annoyance. Lately I haven't been opening the door for such consults. Since people assume I'm not around, nobody complains.

The issues of fighting with insurance companies and lawsuits isn't too much of an issue in Mexico since most people with insurance have government insurance which has preestablished tests that can be done for free depending on the diagnosis. For instance pregnant women can get everything for free just because they are pregnant. It's supposed to be to prevent maternal deaths, but some women do abuse the system.

I think the job is worth it over and over agtain, just don't kill yourself doing it if you're not getting paid enough cash to even eat anything on the way. I would not like to be a general practitioner forever though. You're disrespected by specialists as a numbnuts that couldn't get into a residency and over worked. The pay for government nonsurgical jobs is the same for specialists and generalists though. If you live in rural Mexico you can make a good living as a PCP. Not a millionaire life, but a nice cushy life with vacations to Eruope twice a year is totally possible.

 

[Slack3r]

I get requests at least once a week to put IV solutions with no meds of them because apparently saline solution 09% can cure all imaginary maladies. 🙄

It works OK on dehydration. 👍

 

[gluon999]

So is dentistry the way to go? (serious question)

If you find it interesting, go for it. Def. better than Medicine and bonus if you can get into Orthodontics. Mine was a baller, driving a 7 series Beemer and working from 10 am - 4 pm everyday. Straight up cash, no insurance BS.

 

[gluon999]

Gluon999, I've taken a healthcare organizations class, and I can attest all of your points to be valid (because I've learned all that). Seems like the scariest part though is the debt. It seems like that the only way to escape debt is to a) get a military health professions scholarship, where the military pays for your medical school and in turn you have to serve for four years, b) get extremely rare merit scholarships, or c) get into an MD/PhD program.

Very interesting read, those are much of my concerns as well. Hopefully the whole healthcare system changes for the better.

Thanks. Unfortunately, M.D. these days stands for Massive Debt. No one really understands it until they go through it, not even the old timers who went to med school in the good old days when tuition was more in sync with the cost of living.