Did I earn the wrong degree?

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LivingOffLoans

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I wanted to earn a doctorate in clinical or counseling psychology since I started my undergraduate studies, but I wound up going for a terminal master's degree in counseling because I decided I wanted to practice primarily.

Halfway through my master's program, I realized I had a gift for writing and lecturing (and I do enjoy research when I'm passionate about the topic), and I started to regret not applying to doctorate programs instead. Now, I want to let out a couple of things about my ultimate career hopes, and see if some folks might be able to point me in the right direction.

I ultimately want to do a combination of things (in order of most time spent):
1) Lecture and supervise at the graduate and/or post-graduate level with an emphasis on psychoanalytic theory and research.
2) Author psychoanalytic articles, some research studies that contribute to psychodynamic therapy process, and present at continuing education events and conferences.
3) Maintain a small private practice with a handful of patients.

Now, here is where I struggle...

If I don't pursue any further education and stop at my counseling license, I don't think I will have the credentials to pursue some of the above. I can't imagine an analytic institute, let alone a university, bringing in a master's-level counselor (not saying here the doctorate isn't without challenges either, just there is less of a credential barrier).

If I do go for a doctorate, I will be pushing 40 years old by the time I finish my post-doc, will have lost a significant amount of potentially earned income, and piled on additional debt. This would also be a rough option because I want to get married and have kids before I'm 40.

I have also been kicking myself in the behind for not earning an MSW instead. Had I gone that route, I might be able to better approximate some of my career aspirations from a different angle. Plus, clinically speaking, it seems MSW's are more sought after than master's-level mental health counselors (e.g. more room for independent practice in some states, medicare reimbursement, hospital appointments, good opportunities in administrative/business/leadership positions, etc...).

So, I guess I am really trying to figure out if I should go for a doctorate of some kind (maybe even something in social/personality psych), an MSW, or do something else. I do know I want to be a part of, and contribute literature to, the psychoanalytic community. That will probably also require some post-graduate training in a fellowship or extended program in addition to a different degree/license.

Thoughts?
 
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I'm in a somewhat similar situation as you, and so do have a few ideas regarding what you're looking at as far as how old you'd be when finished. While I am a few years younger than you, I am still looking at finishing when I'm around 36-38. The thing I've reminded myself is that although that sounds really late I'm looking at 27-28 years of time once I've finished to work in my desired field, and that's even the low side because it's assuming I'll be finished at 65.

In regards to what degree, I do agree with mishpug that your interests seem to align more closely with a Counseling or Counselor Education PhD. It's simply a matter of weighing out whether you are more interested in the research/private practice end or the psychoanalytic education side. Each has it's benefits, you just need to decide for yourself which is the main priority.

Good luck with your decision process!
 
Do you have access to anyone affiliated with a psychoanalytic institute? I am pretty sure they accept msw's, but idk about other master's degrees. They may be the best people to ask because much of your supervising and lecturing could be within the confines of the psychoanalytic community.

Best,
Dr. E
 
Generally this is not a forum friendly to psychoanalytic practice. But Dr. E is correct, with a Master's you can be affiliated (practice, train, eventually supervise and lecture) within a psychoanalytic institute, if you are lucky enough to live in a place with an active and vibrant psychoanalytic community.
 
Psych
Sendtrees said:
Generally this is not a forum friendly to psychoanalytic practice. But Dr. E is correct, with a Master's you can be affiliated (practice, train, eventually supervise and lecture) within a psychoanalytic institute, if you are lucky enough to live in a place with an active and vibrant psychoanalytic community.
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Shun the pariahs! Shun! Back to the Dark Ages along with trephination!
 
Thanks for the initial responses. I guess my fear about the PhD in Counselor Education would be that it still results in an LPC, which I could just settle for now with my master's in counseling once I finish the state requirements for licensure. Otherwise, it is an interesting option, and I have not thought of it before.

I live in the northeast, which is very psychoanalytic friendly (and I am yet to see any master's level therapists in their institutes). It has always bothered me that there is a strong divide between dynamic theory and university departments. I don't think it is as much about empiricism (as there is a lot of research emerging on psychoanalytic theory and practice) as much as it is about carrying out short-term studies that are often easier to get funded. Not to mention, there is still a lot of misinformation/stigma about psychoanalytic/psychodynamic therapy.

If I were to earn a doctorate, I would love to contribute to the growing body of literature that is trying to shorten the divide between academic departments and analytic institutes, and demonstrate the utility of psychoanalytic/psychodynamic practice. Ideally, the result with whatever degree I earn would be career options in both a university department and a psychoanalytic institute.

I could probably apply to some of the more analytic-oriented PhD programs here in the northeast, but because they are in the northeast, they tend to be competitive (not because so many people want dynamic training). If the program were fully funded and didn't take 10 years to complete (as one particular PhD program in this area does take), I would do it.
 
Sendtrees said:
Generally this is not a forum friendly to psychoanalytic practice. But Dr. E is correct, with a Master's you can be affiliated (practice, train, eventually supervise and lecture) within a psychoanalytic institute, if you are lucky enough to live in a place with an active and vibrant psychoanalytic community.
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HAHAHAHAHA..... I always find the anti-analytic comments hilarious because when you poll psychologists the type of treatment they would attend as a patient, it is usually psychoanalytic.
 
If I were in your shoes, I would definitely consider psychoanalytic training, since that seems to be your theoretical preference. There are some wonderful institutes in the Northeast. From what I can gather from a quick search, some are more open to non-traditional candidates than others. The White Institute, for example, has a program that trains you to be a licensed psychoanalyst, for which you would be eligible. They might also consider you on a case by case basis; it's worth reaching out to ask. Once you complete a program at an institute, you'd definitely be eligible to do almost all of what you listed (though I suspect for process research you'd be best off forming a relationship with a prof at a university or a clinic director where such data is more likely to be gathered). Feel free to PM if you want to discuss further (I live in the Northeast and am familiar with many of the PhD programs and several of the institutes in my area).
 
psychologyman, do you have the source? I've seen it somewhere myself, but I believe the source I came across says 'psychodynamic', not 'psychoanalytic'.

If/when I find it I'll post.
 
LivingOffLoans said:
psychologyman, do you have the source? I've seen it somewhere myself, but I believe the source I came across says 'psychodynamic', not 'psychoanalytic'.

If/when I find it I'll post.
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I have to search through my files, I am not aware of the author at this moment. I am teaching a seminar in the spring on modern psychodynamic theory and I cite it in a lecture. I'll get back to you with source. I try not to get into the CBT vs Psychodynamic debates anymore, I did that throughout grad school. I was a psychodynamic oriented person in a CBT program. Imagine that experience! I believe that you need to be familiar with various modes of treatment; flexibility is key!
 
I've seen this cited in "The Psychotherapists Own Psychotherapy: Patient and Clinician Perspectives", possibly from a German study which I cannot access;

"Laireiter (2000a) found that CB therapists attend treatments in the following distribution: CBT, 10-15%, psychodynamic therapies, 50-60%, humanistic, 20-30%, and systemic, 10-15%. "


http://books.google.com/books?id=nflZVSsIVzUC&pg=PA41&lpg=PA41&dq=CBT therapists preferring psychodynamic personal therapists?&source=bl&ots=ASFDNioLHP&sig=Fvq6DCgZ97WfM28ONVXgmzQph8c&hl=en&sa=X&ei=Wp29Uv9P5YzZBZa1gOgG&ved=0CE4Q6AEwBA#v=onepage&q=CBT therapists preferring psychodynamic personal therapists?&f=false
 
ela said:
I've seen this cited in "The Psychotherapists Own Psychotherapy: Patient and Clinician Perspectives", possibly from a German study which I cannot access;

"Laireiter (2000a) found that CB therapists attend treatments in the following distribution: CBT, 10-15%, psychodynamic therapies, 50-60%, humanistic, 20-30%, and systemic, 10-15%. "
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I'd need to see the study. We all know about how important methodology matters in polling studies. If you ask that question to practitioners in NYC you will get a vastly different answer than if you ask that question in, well, most other places.
 
Psychologyman, I' m not sure I understand the relevance of this is to training and practice.
 
erg923 said:
Psychologyman, I' m not sure I understand the relevance of this is to training and practice.
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duty_calls.png
 
I agree with erg that this discussion of therapists' choice of personal therapy isn't especially helpful for the OP's training and practice question. OP, why not contact an analytic institute directly and ask them what they think your best training path could be?

Given therapists' therapy choice became a discussion, I'll also just throw this out there: The choice of therapy by a therapist is more likely to be made based on the presenting issues. Lots of people (therapists and not) choose to attend therapy to deal with life issues rather than acute symptoms (for which I would argue that a CB therapist will seek C and/or B therapy). For general life issues, a CB therapist does not need another CB therapist to teach him/her how to identify and restructure thoughts and implement behavioral strategies. On the other hand, on a more macro level, for life issues an open-minded CB therapist can benefit from having the different perspective of a therapist who has a different orientation. Finally, as noted by several, psychodynamic and psychoanalytic are not the same thing, so reports related to the former aren't relevant to the latter.
 
InNae said:
I agree with erg that this discussion of therapists' choice of personal therapy isn't especially helpful for the OP's training and practice question. OP, why not contact an analytic institute directly and ask them what they think your best training path could be?

Given therapists' therapy choice became a discussion, I'll also just throw this out there: The choice of therapy by a therapist is more likely to be made based on the presenting issues. Lots of people (therapists and not) choose to attend therapy to deal with life issues rather than acute symptoms (for which I would argue that a CB therapist will seek C and/or B therapy). For general life issues, a CB therapist does not need another CB therapist to teach him/her how to identify and restructure thoughts and implement behavioral strategies. On the other hand, on a more macro level, for life issues an open-minded CB therapist can benefit from having the different perspective of a therapist who has a different orientation. Finally, as noted by several, psychodynamic and psychoanalytic are not the same thing, so reports related to the former aren't relevant to the latter.
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Well, yes, but I was actually pointing more toward the fact that an individual's personal treatment decisons have absolutley no bearing on what consistutes "best evidence" or standard of practice, etc for an entire field, right? This in no way speaks against the fact that what one should offer patients as first-line treatments should be anything other than treatments with the best emprical evidence (best chance) of working in a clinically meanigful and temporaly efficient way.
 
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erg923 said:
Well, yes, but I was actually pointing more toward was that an individual's personal treatment decisons have absolutley no bearing on what consistutes "best evidence" or standard of practice, etc for a field, right? This in no way speaks against the fact that what one should offer patients as first-line treatments should be anything other than treatments with the best emprical evidence (best chance) of working in a clinically meanigful and temporaly efficient way.
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Hey now, if my first choice for treatment is primal scream therapy with hyperbaric chamber boosters, who are you to tell me no?
 
erg923 said:
Well, yes, but I was actually pointing more toward was that an individual's personal treatment decisons have absolutley no bearing on what consistutes "best evidence" or standard of practice, etc for a field, right? This in no way speaks against the fact that what one should offer patients as first-line treatments should be anything other than treatments with the best emprical evidence (best chance) of working in a clinically meanigful and temporaly efficient way.
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Yes, I agree completely. Of course, most of the outcome research is actually (and appropriately) for particular disorders/symptoms, rather than life issues (how does one measure outcome for someone who meets with a therapist weekly essentially to have a place to discuss non-serious life stressors, etc?). A person seeking therapy (therapist or no) absolutely will be best-served by best-practice, evidence-based treatments for acute issues. My point was that someone reading the above citation and interpreting it as a preference for other orientations by CB therapists should understand that the CB therapists in the poll would NOT seek non evidence-based treatment for acute issues (i.e., the issues for which the evidence is clear).
 
InNae said:
Yes, I agree completely. Of course, most of the outcome research is actually (and appropriately) for particular disorders/symptoms, rather than life issues (how does one measure outcome for someone who meets with a therapist weekly essentially to have a place to discuss non-serious life stressors, etc?). A person seeking therapy (therapist or no) absolutely will be best-served by best-practice, evidence-based treatments for acute issues. My point was that someone reading the above citation and interpreting it as a preference for other orientations by CB therapists should understand that the CB therapists in the poll would NOT seek non evidence-based treatment for acute issues (i.e., the issues for which the evidence is clear).
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Do we know that? What is the evidence.
 
Ela, check with whomever posted the citation to see if the authors of the study asked participants to report their reasons for therapy seeking. I'm guessing they didn't, which is a problem for the validity of the interpretation being reflected upthread.

Meanwhile, I concede that it is possible that a person who is trained to know and understand evidence-based treatments for acute issues, might, on needing treatment himself/herself, choose a therapy for which there is no evidence. Yeah, that could happen.
 
Hi,
I have a question similar to OPs. I have not gotten into a PhD program yet, not sure I will. Just weighing my options. I am a school psych, masters level, and have worked for over ten years. Summers off, school breaks, good benefits, etc. It is a pretty good gig. Income is not horrible, ~65k and increasing. I bring home about 2 hrs of work each night. I have nightmares about missing IEP meetings. I can't see myself doing this for another 25 years. To get my PhD, I surely would incur debt but ideally would have a flexible position (my own PP as soon as possible) and would want to work as long as possible. For all of you seasoned clinical psychs out there, is the grass greener with a PhD in hand? I love assessment and want to be able to assess more than just the 0-21 population. Thoughts?
 
Are you talking about npsych assessment? If so, longer road than most. It's been a while, so you're still looking at 4-5 years of grad school, 1 year internship, and 2 year postdoc. Are you willing to take a massive pay cut for that period of time?
 
Yes, I am talking about neuropsych assessment. I am willing to take a temporary pay cut if it results in a position where I have more control over my workload (100+evals per school year, most of which are completed over the course of 5 months), and the ability to test a broader population. Is it realistic to think that with a PhD, I can work in different capacities as a psychologist (e.g., neuropsych assessments, consult, potentially teach)? I am currently limited to practicing in school, doing basic psycho-ed evals. I work long hours in the office and take work home. It seems like a full-time doctoral program would be a similar level of work, but would result in a more satisfying outcome after 4-5 years.
 
With neuropsych you can work in those capacities. You would not be able do those things after 4-5 years. Most places want you board eligible, and in some states you can only bill for certain procedures if you are boarded. To get there, you need the degree (4-5 years), internship (1 year), and neuropsych postdoc (2 years).
 
WisNeuro said:
With neuropsych you can work in those capacities. You would not be able do those things after 4-5 years. Most places want you board eligible, and in some states you can only bill for certain procedures if you are boarded. To get there, you need the degree (4-5 years), internship (1 year), and neuropsych postdoc (2 years).
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This. In addition to neuropsych, the field of clinical psych as a whole seems to slowly be moving toward the trend of formal post-docs (usually one year) in various areas of specialized practice, including trauma, primary care mental health, HIV/Hepatitis C, LGBT, severe mental illness, etc. Even without a formal postdoc, most states still require a year of supervised postdoctoral practice in order to be license eligible. Thus, it's likely more accurate to think of the entire path as taking an average of 6-7 years rather than 4-5.

But to answer your question--yes, a doctorate in clinical/counseling psych would allow you to do the things you're interested in, at least as far as I can tell based on what's been mentioned. Then again, for areas like consultation, a doctorate isn't necessary (or sufficient), although it may help to open some doors that might otherwise have been tough to find.
 
Thank you, I appreciate your information. Lots to think about.
 
After a lot of thinking and researching, it seems like an MSW (leading to an LICSW) might have been the most cost-efficient and career-friendly degree for me at this point in my career (instead of the master's in counseling). I should have done that!

So, I'm thinking maybe I should go back and get an MSW at some point...that, or a Ph.D. in Clinical Psychology. It seems like after the M.D., these are the two most popular credentials among the vast majority of psychoanalysts, and also the two degrees that would lead me best to my career goals. Some major differences in the pursuit of each of those though, huh?
 
LivingOffLoans said:
After a lot of thinking and researching, it seems like an MSW (leading to an LICSW) might have been the most cost-efficient and career-friendly degree for me at this point in my career (instead of the master's in counseling). I should have done that!

So, I'm thinking maybe I should go back and get an MSW at some point...that, or a Ph.D. in Clinical Psychology. It seems like after the M.D., these are the two most popular credentials among the vast majority of psychoanalysts, and also the two degrees that would lead me best to my career goals. Some major differences in the pursuit of each of those though, huh?
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In my experience, some institutes are more AP(sychiatric)A affiliated, while some are more AP(sychological)A affiliated. I've attended seminars at a few different institutes in 2 different states....Many psychologists, many social workers, many psychiatrists....almost zero counselors. I think this is more an artifact of the relative youth of the counseling license, though, as the modal age in most of these settings was >40.
 
ela said:
I think this is more an artifact of the relative youth of the counseling license, though, as the modal age in most of these settings was >40.
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Yeah, that could be. But I also wonder how many master's level counselors will 'grow up' to be psychoanalysts and psychodynamic therapists. It also seems like most counseling programs provide little, if any, psychodynamic training beyond a week or two in a Theories course, so students really aren't exposed to it unless they dig deeper themselves or seek out the training independently. This is in contrast to some social work programs, and some PhD Clinical programs, that appear to offer entire courses devoted to psychodynamic therapy. I would be very interested to see the assigned readings for those courses too now that there is more empirical support for dynamic therapy.
 
Phd in counselor education seems like a good fit and in the northeast there are a number of great programs, penn state, Syracuse, uconn, university of Rochester, Montclair state. Because a prerequisite to counselor Ed is a masters in counseling (mental health, school, etc...) most programs can be completed in 3-4 years.


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Also, for what its worth, the American Psychoanalytic Association has some minimum requirements that may preclude training of MA level counselors. Pulled this from the New Center for Psychoanalysis (LA) website:

The American Psychoanalytic Association has established minimum requirements for the selection of clinical associates. As an affiliate of the American Psychoanalytic Association, the New Center follows these guidelines. These requirements for clinicians include the following:


  • To be eligible for psychoanalytic training, the applicant must possess the highest academic degree associated with the licensure of that profession. Proof of a valid license and appropriate malpractice insurance are required before matriculation.
  • Psychiatrists must hold an M.D. degree from a medical school accredited by ACGME, a license to practice medicine in the State of California and have completed the second year of full-time psychiatric residency.
  • Psychologists must hold a Ph.D. or Psy.D. from a doctoral program accredited by the American Psychological Association and a license to practice clinical psychology in the State of California.
  • Social Workers must hold a Ph.D., DSW, or MSW degree in social work from a GADE accredited program and a California license to practice clinical social work. Those with an MSW must subsequently complete at least two additional years of didactic and clinical training involving immersion in a rigorous program such as our Psychoanalytic Psychotherapy Program.
  • Marriage and Family Therapists must hold an M.A. from an accredited graduate program and a license to practice as a Marriage and Family Therapist in California. Individuals who have graduated with a clinical master’s degree that is generally recognized as the highest clinical degree within a specific mental health profession must subsequently complete at least two additional years of didactic and clinical training involving immersion in a rigorous program such as our Psychoanalytic Psychotherapy Program.
  • Psychotherapy training with close supervision is required. Supervision with a psychoanalyst is recommended.
 
NYRangers1 said:
Phd in counselor education seems like a good fit and in the northeast there are a number of great programs, penn state, Syracuse, uconn, university of Rochester, Montclair state. Because a prerequisite to counselor Ed is a masters in counseling (mental health, school, etc...) most programs can be completed in 3-4 years.
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It does seem like a time and cost-effective track, but in terms of income, I think I would still earn the same reimbursement rate from insurance companies for my clinical work. Of course, my main source of income would likely then be something academic, but will I really be hired over a Clinical PhD? Even they seem to be taking on more and more adjunct roles to make up for a lack of departmental chairs. Plus, most PhD Counselor Ed programs, to my best knowledge, are not funded. Wouldn't this be quite a financial hit only to receive similar pay and job opportunities?

It seems like a Clinical PhD, though would slow down the number of years to completion and accrue a debt similar to a non-funded program, would give me at least an initial 20% boost in income and open up more job opportunities than any of the other degrees. In the end, after the debt/interest/lost income from years in program, I probably wouldn't be making a whole lot more than if I just kept working my current position.
 
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