Did I fumble the bag by doing the UCLA Extension Postbacc

[astronomicalasterisms]

Hey guys, allow me to recount you my tale of woe for further context of how I ended up here to begin with-

I had applied to the UC Postbacc consortium, but was rejected because one of my letter of rec writers flaked on me. Eventually, he turned it in but the damage had already been done. Generously, CDU (Charles Drew University), being the nicest people alive actually deferred my acceptance into two separate programs: an SMP and an MPH. However, due to financial reasons and the fact that I had last-minute found out that my undergraduate credits bungled from Covid, I don't think I would have been able to attend those programs for this particular cycle.

I had my eye on a DIY Postbacc, of course, as a backup option, and so I ended up declining admissions to the programs to give myself grace to graduate, sort out my bachelors, and then hop back into the GPA repair. My gpa isn't *too* awful, it's sitting at a 3.4 from undergrad at UCLA with a sGPA around 3.3. I also came out of undergrad with around 500 clinical hours, and 50 research hours (no publications, though 🙁 ) which I acknowledge isn't much for a lot of you amazing smart folks here, but given the 'Rona situation and some personal situations, I think it sets me up for reasonable success to continue to build my resume.

So, as of now, I am currently halfway through my quarter at my DIY postbacc at the UCLA Extension school. I've set up some nice clinical opportunities for myself, and this is why I'm taking 2 classes as opposed to three, because I'd rather take two classes and excel than three and spread myself thin. However, it has come to my attenion that I "should" be taking 3 classes (I am taking 2, at the UCLA extension school so that caps out at around 8-10 units) and by default most are offered online. I hear that online postbaccs are no good, but I crossreferenced with the AAMC and the AAMC recognizes the UCLA extension school as a "real" and acceptable postbacc program.

So now I'm confused- some folks say 24 units is fine and taking 2 classes a quarter for three quarters is fine, and other folks are saying you have to be taking 12 units a quarter to make it worthwhile. I've seen some folks here on SDN who are anti-online postbaccs, but some folks self-report they did online postbaccs at AAMC recognized extensions schools and were otherwise quite fine.

Does anyone have any clarity here? I'm really stressed out- I'm not sure if I should continue down my UCLA extension path, or wait for the next application cycle for a formal, in person postbacc and spend this year working. I do see that UCLA Extension does offer certain postbacc classes in person, and so if I end up staying the course, I'll be making a point to try to enroll in as many of those as possible.

Irregardless, thanks you guys, sorry for all the anxiety, and I hope you guys have a good week!

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[LunaOri]

It would help to know what else you are doing. If you are working, volunteering, and taking 2 classes, that’s plenty.

 

[astronomicalasterisms]

It would help to know what else you are doing. If you are working, volunteering, and taking 2 classes, that’s plenty.

Hiyah! Yup, I am volunteering! Not working because its difficult to find a part time job in my area, but I'm volunteering at two separate medical centers, and through help from professors and mentors I'm looking into shadowing and research as well. I'm very lucky to have mentors who advocate for me.

 

[candbgirl]

Do you have nonclinical volunteering?
It seems that 8 hours (2 classes) of virtual classes isn’t much really. You are t even traveling to school. How many hours are you volunteering? You said you were shadowing too. You only need 50 hours total of shadowing so… What else are you doing?
Why are/were you considering a MPH?

 

[GoSpursGo]

I would say the most important thing to keep in mind is that you can't speak in absolutes when it comes to any of this. Of course doing in person is better than online, doing 12 hours is better than 8 hours, getting up to 1000 hours is better than having 500 hours, etc. But the MOST important thing is that you excel in your post-bacc, however it is structured, and that you give yourself adequate time for studying for the MCAT. I will say that doing online courses get a special pass during the pandemic, and that time is more or less past--again, as long as you do well you're helping yourself, but if you have the capacity to do it in person that is probably the primary change I would make.

I would generally say that a postbacc is more meaningful if you can get up to at least 30 hours, so 24 would be on the low side. Given that it's already November, you can either forge ahead after 24 hours, or you could plan for another gap year.

 

[astronomicalasterisms]

Do you have nonclinical volunteering?
It seems that 8 hours (2 classes) of virtual classes isn’t much really. You are t even traveling to school. How many hours are you volunteering? You said you were shadowing too. You only need 50 hours total of shadowing so… What else are you doing?
Why are/were you considering a MPH?

Hi, so one of my volunteer commitments is clinical and I'm working on upping my hours with direct patient care, and one of them is more public health effacing but still within the realm of volunteering of course. I'm working on upping my hours to 6, but it's been an uphill battle to get any opportunities. I'm working on getting shadowing, but not shadowing right now. What happened is that instead of doing 3 I had picked 2 classes because I thought I was going to continue working with a doctor I had met through family friends as an RA, but that fell through rather last minute and so I've been scrambling to get some kind of "bigger" commitment down. That being said, I just hopped off a zoom call with one of my mentors who is going to reach out to her cohorts who are big into research, and she helped me find some jobs that I could certainly apply to. If I can't find anything, I'll just be taking three next quarter and just chug along doing some volunteer and full-time school. As you might imagine, it's been rather harrowing to constantly adjust to people saying "yeah, we can hire you" then ghost me forever and I have to find a new thing LOL.

I wasn't considering an MPH. My application to the PostBacc Consortium was deferred to the MPH program by CDU by way of "hey you're actually a better fit for these other programs because of your borderline GPA and also your LOR writer kind of made it funky for us" and it was lovely, but again logistically impossible due to my graduation timeline. I'm not opposed to applying to MPH programs, if it suits me better than this Postbacc, but the CDU MPH was 3 years which is excessive considering UCLA (my alma mater) is right there and offers not only more flexible scheduling, but a more succint timeline in 1-2 years as opposed to three.

But also for context for more folks who may or may not read this, I'm also trans and fighting right now to get my gender affirming care. I was hoping to get my top surgery set up and hence the lower class workload.... but, yknow, the way trans healthcare is going in the States right now I'm not going to get any gender affirming care until next year.... if ever 🙁

 

[astronomicalasterisms]

I would say the most important thing to keep in mind is that you can't speak in absolutes when it comes to any of this. Of course doing in person is better than online, doing 12 hours is better than 8 hours, getting up to 1000 hours is better than having 500 hours, etc. But the MOST important thing is that you excel in your post-bacc, however it is structured, and that you give yourself adequate time for studying for the MCAT. I will say that doing online courses get a special pass during the pandemic, and that time is more or less past--again, as long as you do well you're helping yourself, but if you have the capacity to do it in person that is probably the primary change I would make.

I would generally say that a postbacc is more meaningful if you can get up to at least 30 hours, so 24 would be on the low side. Given that it's already November, you can either forge ahead after 24 hours, or you could plan for another gap year.

Hello! Thank you, this was very helpful. I'm glad that you've reaffirmed what I had been thinking. I'm certainly going to be shooting for 30 or more units- I'm able to take an extra quarter, and if I can't get anything useful by way of work next quarter I may up my hours to 12 or so. I've discussed the finances with my parents, who are funding this very graciously, and they are totally okay with me upping my time in the program. I'm also enrolling for next quarter as we speak, and I've applied to in person classes that I could find- cheers!

Have you heard anything on the UC Extension schools specifically by way of online being okay or not? Since after the pandemic, almost all the extension schools have by default transitioned and stayed online. But the AAMC seems to recognize Berkeley, UCSD, and UCLA's extension schools as registered postbacc bodies, which as you might imagine is a little confusing as to how they're regarded by admissions.

 

[GoSpursGo]

Hello! Thank you, this was very helpful. I'm glad that you've reaffirmed what I had been thinking. I'm certainly going to be shooting for 30 or more units- I'm able to take an extra quarter, and if I can't get anything useful by way of work next quarter I may up my hours to 12 or so. I've discussed the finances with my parents, who are funding this very graciously, and they are totally okay with me upping my time in the program. I'm also enrolling for next quarter as we speak, and I've applied to in person classes that I could find- cheers!

Have you heard anything on the UC Extension schools specifically by way of online being okay or not? Since after the pandemic, almost all the extension schools have by default transitioned and stayed online. But the AAMC seems to recognize Berkeley, UCSD, and UCLA's extension schools as registered postbacc bodies, which as you might imagine is a little confusing as to how they're regarded by admissions.

Again it’s all relative. My advice would be to avoid online if possible. If you have a 3.4 gpa from undergrad and then get a 4.0 with online courses only taking 8 hours, is it because you’ve truly improved your performance, or is it because you’re ing fewer hours, or is it because it’s easier doing it online? Don’t invite those kinds of questions if you can avoid it.

But also be careful about piling on too much. It is definitely better to take fewer hours and get a 4.0 than to try to do too much and stumble.

 

[astronomicalasterisms]

Again it’s all relative. My advice would be to avoid online if possible. If you have a 3.4 gpa from undergrad and then get a 4.0 with online courses only taking 8 hours, is it because you’ve truly improved your performance, or is it because you’re ing fewer hours, or is it because it’s easier doing it online? Don’t invite those kinds of questions if you can avoid it.

But also be careful about piling on too much. It is definitely better to take fewer hours and get a 4.0 than to try to do too much and stumble.

Thanks 🙂 you're so right, balance is the key. l'll keep on trucking and reevaluating as I go!

 

[Med Ed]

Probably the single most common mistake I see is for an applicant to go into a cycle with little or no non-clinical volunteering. There is an enduring perception that other aspects of the application (metrics, research, clinical volunteering) can compensate for this, but nothing replaces it. Maybe serious hours of hospice volunteering, but that's about it.

This is why we get posters on here every year with 3.8+ GPAs, high MCATs, 1000+ hours of research with pubs, 200+ hours of shadowing, etc., wondering why they weren't successful.

 

[MrPuff]

Probably the single most common mistake I see is for an applicant to go into a cycle with little or no non-clinical volunteering. There is an enduring perception that other aspects of the application (metrics, research, clinical volunteering) can compensate for this, but nothing replaces it. Maybe serious hours of hospice volunteering, but that's about it.

This is why we get posters on here every year with 3.8+ GPAs, high MCATs, 1000+ hours of research with pubs, 200+ hours of shadowing, etc., wondering why they weren't successful.

A lot of learned folks on here state 150 hours of non-clinical volunteering is bare minimum. Do you agree with that number or would you recommend more or less hours as a minimum?

 

[astronomicalasterisms]

Probably the single most common mistake I see is for an applicant to go into a cycle with little or no non-clinical volunteering. There is an enduring perception that other aspects of the application (metrics, research, clinical volunteering) can compensate for this, but nothing replaces it. Maybe serious hours of hospice volunteering, but that's about it.

This is why we get posters on here every year with 3.8+ GPAs, high MCATs, 1000+ hours of research with pubs, 200+ hours of shadowing, etc., wondering why they weren't successful.

That makes a lot of sense- for sure I'm going to keep working at my public health volunteering admin job. The other center I work at has both clinical (I work with patients) and then nonclinical (I take care of the facilities and horses, it's a rehab and PT program but on horseback it's really great). Do you think volunteering in non-medical related things but things you really care about (say if I took up hours at idk, a horse rescue to keep within the horse theme lol) would reflect well then?

 

[eigen]

When I think of "non-clinical volunteering", I think of wanting to see students/applicants working with underserved groups in the community. Working at a soup kitchen, working with the homeless, etc.

Your experiences sound great, but they sound more like you volunteering your time than time spent "serving your community" if that makes sense. It may well be that these are with non-profits and you're getting a lot of that experience that isn't coming across, but just something I note in your examples.

It's also not clear to me how research fits into your goals. Research experience is always nice to have, and is particularly important if you want to go into more research focused specialties (easier to get research experiences in med school with prior experience, etc.) or the more competitive schools.

But I would not advise it as a priority for the average applicant over more time doing community oriented service work, more time getting clinical experience, or time working on classes to bring up your grades (and time studying for the MCAT).

 

[Med Ed]

That makes a lot of sense- for sure I'm going to keep working at my public health volunteering admin job. The other center I work at has both clinical (I work with patients) and then nonclinical (I take care of the facilities and horses, it's a rehab and PT program but on horseback it's really great). Do you think volunteering in non-medical related things but things you really care about (say if I took up hours at idk, a horse rescue to keep within the horse theme lol) would reflect well then?

The work of being a physician gets dressed up many different ways, but at its core the practice of medicine is a humanistic, service-oriented career. Non-clinical volunteering should therefore be likewise humanistic and service-oriented. To that end, I don't see how an admin role or caring for horses really fit the bill.

As @eigen is getting at, you may need to sit down and consider what types of schools you think you'll be competitive for. You've got a below average GPA, scant research, and you're meandering through an online postbacc. Not to sound harsh, but I don’t see that you have a coherent strategy.

 

[candbgirl]

That makes a lot of sense- for sure I'm going to keep working at my public health volunteering admin job. The other center I work at has both clinical (I work with patients) and then nonclinical (I take care of the facilities and horses, it's a rehab and PT program but on horseback it's really great). Do you think volunteering in non-medical related things but things you really care about (say if I took up hours at idk, a horse rescue to keep within the horse theme lol) would reflect well then?

Stop. I can tell you love these opportunities and that’s just fine. But for a med school applicant you have to get outside of your comfort zone and get into something that makes you uncomfortable. Medicine is a service profession and docs deal with people at their very worse. The activities you are doing aren’t helping you decide if you want to spend the rest of your life dealing with people in need. Your nonclinical focus doesn’t seem to be focusing on the target expected by schools. Get off campus, out of your comfort zone, get your hands dirty and start doing something for humans in great need.

 

[astronomicalasterisms]

Stop. I can tell you love these opportunities and that’s just fine. But for a med school applicant you have to get outside of your comfort zone and get into something that makes you uncomfortable. Medicine is a service profession and docs deal with people at their very worse. The activities you are doing aren’t helping you decide if you want to spend the rest of your life dealing with people in need. Your nonclinical focus doesn’t seem to be focusing on the target expected by schools. Get off campus, out of your comfort zone, get your hands dirty and start doing something for humans in great need.

Hi, I'd like to clarify some points. My other volunteer job revolves around working at my city's largest LGBT health center. That's the public health volunteering I was referring to. I will be working with patients to direct them to the care they need. I'm also very active in Stanford-based mentorship program that focuses on providing resources to underserved populations as well as mentorship, and to clarify,the horse therapy program it's called "hippotherapy." I am helping folks like veterans and other children with developmental disabilities refine motor skills by riding horses, which does count as patient contact, I think, as I assist in performing the physical therapy and rehab treatments. I also actually have a number of hours volunteering as an MA at a clinic in the heart of my city where the majority of patients are undocumented immigrants as well as other folks who whose income falls well below the poverty line. In addition to this, I was in a sorority during my undergraduate years that did in fact do a lot of philanthropic work, and I have worked at homeless shelters providing meals for folks. I'm working on being part of research teams that are focused on transgender health as well as treatments for HIV positive patients, which is how research fits into my narrative. As you might be able to tell, queer health is radically important to me and I've worked hard to set up opportunities for myself.

The work I did as a paid MA was specifically at an outpatient clinic geared to serving folks who needed pain management as well as doing a bit of neurology stuff, and I worked with many VA patients as well as once again, folks whose income fell below the povery line, or geriatric patients who were also in various ways of financial distress/on disability.

I really value your input, and thank you all for responding to my thread. I'd just like to leave these things here to clarify some things I might have touched upon with levity beforehand, but I don't think I sat down to explain.

And in regards to the postbacc, I think I had previously qualified I will be aiming for as many in person classes as possible. I believe someone had mentioned above that it's not necessarily in terms of absolutes, so I'm simply just going to improve on what I can and reassess as I go forward if I need to enroll myself into a formal, fully in-person postabacc as it seems no one really quite knows the situation on the UCLA Extension postbacc.

EDIT: But I seriously legitimately want to thank you guys for your responses. I appreciate the honesty, and I recognize the job you guys do here is very much demanding and taxing. I really appreciate you guys taking the time to respond, and not just in truncated perfunctory ways, to my thread here and I will definitely be re-examining my approaches to the journey!

 

[Goro]

A lot of learned folks on here state 150 hours of non-clinical volunteering is bare minimum. Do you agree with that number or would you recommend more or less hours as a minimum?

Many of the schools that reward reinvention are service loving schools. So, I recommend 200 hrs+ of non-clinical volunteering.

Service need not be "unique"; it can be anything that helps people unable to help themselves and that is outside of a patient-care setting. If you can alleviate suffering in your community through service to the poor, homeless, illiterate, fatherless, etc, you are meeting an otherwise unmet need and learning more about the lives of the people (or types of people) who will someday be your patients.

Check out your local houses of worship for volunteer opportunities. The key thing is service to others less fortunate than you. And get off campus and out of your comfort zone!

Examples include: Habitat for Humanity, Ronald McDonald House, Humane Society, crisis hotlines, soup kitchen, food pantry, homeless or women’s shelter, after-school tutoring for students or coaching a sport in a poor school district, teaching literacy or ESL to adults at a community center, Big Brothers/Big Sisters, Meals on Wheels, mentoring immigrant/refugee adults, being a friendly visitor to shut-ins, adaptive sports program coach or Special Olympics.