So this med student I know came up with an idea for a paper. I wrote the entire paper. I assumed I was going to get first author, but turns out I'm only getting second. The kid thinks he deserves first since it was "his idea". Did I get screwed, or is this how it really works for pre-meds?
Did I get screwed out of first author?
- Thread starter Smiths11
- Start date
- Joined
- Apr 20, 2011
- Messages
- 3,499
- Reaction score
- 770
"Idea for a paper"? Was this a research project? If so, the person who does the real research work, including the design of the experiment and the analysis of the results, should be listed as the first author. In that case, the actual authorship of the paper is less important work.
That said, yeah, don't be surprised if you do more work than someone else, but the more senior person gets credit. That is real life, and won't end when you are no longer a pre-med, whether you are in Academia your whole life or enter the private sector, in or out of medicine.
- Joined
- Nov 12, 2009
- Messages
- 4,826
- Reaction score
- 2,712
politics suck.
that said, your description sounds like a playground scuffle.
A: I'm first.
B: No, I'm first!
A: Shut up. It was my idea, so there!
that said, your description sounds like a playground scuffle.
A: I'm first.
B: No, I'm first!
A: Shut up. It was my idea, so there!
It was a literature review. I found all the sources and wrote the draft.
- Joined
- Sep 19, 2011
- Messages
- 4,832
- Reaction score
- 14,382
The physical act of writing a paper barely qualifies for authorship of a paper. The content of the paper, theory, knowledge, research, data, discussion of findings etc. are the important things. Who deserves first vs. second author is simply an analysis weighing the content of the paper. If you contributed significantly more to the content of the paper than others, they should not be listed in front of you.
However, do not make the mistake of thinking that choosing the words to represent content as being a significant part of a paper. Important, absolutely, but largely replaceable.
However, do not make the mistake of thinking that choosing the words to represent content as being a significant part of a paper. Important, absolutely, but largely replaceable.
I know that the quantity of words is not what matters. But basically, by the time I finished writing the paper, I knew more about the topic than the med student. He would ask me questions on whether or not we should include something in there, or leave it out, etc.
- Joined
- May 16, 2012
- Messages
- 497
- Reaction score
- 1
Yeah, I do think you should be first author in that case. Is there any attending or professor (who knows you and this student well) that you could talk to about this... I'd be careful about what you say and whom you say this to though.
Yea, my main concern is that this is my top choice school and I am waiting to hear back. So I'm worried about pissing off the wrong people. I just hate being jipped. 🙁
- Joined
- Sep 19, 2011
- Messages
- 4,832
- Reaction score
- 14,382
Do you do analysis of the sources that you found? If yes, is it a product of both your minds, or dominated by one of you? Ties or near ties always go to the more senior person. If it was mostly you/all you, then yes you should have gotten credit.
There is not much you can do about it and it sucks regardless. Hard to do I know, but you gotta just move on and pick your battles. You will laugh about this some day 🙂. This matters next to none for your medical school applications. Where you fall in authorship is far less important than personal growth you achieved, lessons you learned etc. All of these experiences/activities that you put into your application are food for interviews. If you can talk about it and you had a meaningful experience, then thats really all you need.
- Joined
- Oct 29, 2006
- Messages
- 14,647
- Reaction score
- 44
I would just take your 2nd author pub and be happy with it. If he hadn't brought you the project you'd have nothing.
I'll usually tell students I work with up front what I expect from them and mention what author they'll be, though.
I'll usually tell students I work with up front what I expect from them and mention what author they'll be, though.
I'm aware that 2nd is better than none. My question is purely based on principle. I just want to earn what I deserve.
- Joined
- Oct 29, 2006
- Messages
- 14,647
- Reaction score
- 44
Plus there's the potential of future work. My undergrad research assistant got on 11 papers, posters, and presentations in a year. If he'd argued with me about authorship I would just have found someone else to work with.
- Joined
- Sep 25, 2011
- Messages
- 2,272
- Reaction score
- 24
I would let your PI and the student know how you feel and see if you can be co-authors? I would feel the same way, but there's always going to be politics and you don't want to step on anybody's toe. It is not uncommon for a senior grad student to come up with an idea and have an undergrad do all the work, while the senior grad student gets 1st author. Any publication will help you out though.
- Joined
- Oct 29, 2006
- Messages
- 14,647
- Reaction score
- 44
Honestly, your life will be much easier during your medical career if you assume that people above you in the medical hierarchy are always right with very few exceptions.
mmmcdowe
Duke of minimal vowels
Staff member
Administrator
Volunteer Staff
Lifetime Donor
15+ Year Member
- Joined
- Sep 13, 2008
- Messages
- 9,951
- Reaction score
- 1,984
You didn't get screwed, it sounds like he was also doing work on it and, presumably, he edited your manuscript before passing it on to the boss. If it is any consolation, chances are this won't get accepted anywhere long past this admissions cycle unless it was just an outstanding idea (and in that case he probably does deserve to be first author). The amount of work is not proportional to one's authorship, it's one's creative input. Because of this, the person who came up with the idea for a paper is always in a fairly strong position to be first author even if other people were responsible for the ideas responsible for carrying it out. This is a little grayer when it comes to review articles, since the amount of creativity tends to be less, but it doesn't surprise me that he is claiming first author. The second person who has a strong claim to the first authorship is the one with the higher authority. For example, a PI who might not have much involvement in a project might put his name first because, frankly, it couldn't be done without his resources and it wouldn't be well received without his name on the paper somewhere indicating that he supports the validity of the work. Obviously, a medical student isn't a PI. However, chances are the medical student is more of an asset to the lab or department than you, and this gives him leverage to assert his authorship when he can say it was his idea. Ultimately, such a squabble will hurt you both and still end in he or she getting to be first author.
I agree with the notion of not fighting this. Good work done by you produces a desire for more good work from you. I was given a project by a PI, did it all myself and wrote the paper. He was first author and I was second. Afterwards, he passed along two partially finished review articles for me to help with. That led to two more pubs. After that, I have been passed two more mostly finished projects that I am writing up, as well as two book chapters that I am updating. So, even though in some ways I could have made a claim to be the first author of that first paper, I'd much rather be not-first author on five papers and two book chapters in which most of them were basically hassle free and none of them were my idea.
- Joined
- May 26, 2012
- Messages
- 1,605
- Reaction score
- 127
The guy sounds like a real scumbag. So what if he came up with the idea? It's a review paper, coming up with an idea for a review paper is no harder than coming up with an idea for an essay. The hard part with review papers is tracking down sources, synthesizing the information, and writing the paper. If he did nothing other than say "hey, go write a paper on this topic", **** him. The guy is just using you to do his work for him if this is really the case. Honestly it sounds like he shouldn't even be getting any authorship on the paper at all. Maybe something in the acknowledgements section.
Now if he told you which papers to look up, gave you background information on the topic, instructed you on to organize the paper, what to include, what not to include, edited the paper, and things of that nature, then that's different. It's also a different case if this is actually a meta-analysis you're talking about, not a review paper. But if his only contribution was "I have this idea for a review article" then this guy is essentially stealing your work.
I will say this though, I do find it very bizarre that an undergrad was allowed to write a review article. Typically those articles are written by people who can claim some sort of expertise on the subject, which as an undergrad you cannot.
Anyway, I'd be careful with how you approach this. As a person on the bottom of the lab pecking order you're extremely vulnerable to the whims of the people above you, and getting on a PI's bad side can have big and lasting consequences. Also realize that in a dispute where neither side has any hard proof, a PI is going to take the word of a graduate or medical student over the word of an undergrad (unless the PI really hates that med/grad student).
Now if he told you which papers to look up, gave you background information on the topic, instructed you on to organize the paper, what to include, what not to include, edited the paper, and things of that nature, then that's different. It's also a different case if this is actually a meta-analysis you're talking about, not a review paper. But if his only contribution was "I have this idea for a review article" then this guy is essentially stealing your work.
I will say this though, I do find it very bizarre that an undergrad was allowed to write a review article. Typically those articles are written by people who can claim some sort of expertise on the subject, which as an undergrad you cannot.
Anyway, I'd be careful with how you approach this. As a person on the bottom of the lab pecking order you're extremely vulnerable to the whims of the people above you, and getting on a PI's bad side can have big and lasting consequences. Also realize that in a dispute where neither side has any hard proof, a PI is going to take the word of a graduate or medical student over the word of an undergrad (unless the PI really hates that med/grad student).
That's what the senior author position is for. First author is "I did most of the work/made the biggest intellectual contribution/wrote the paper". Middle author is "I helped out in some significant way". Senior author is "I'm the guy who provided all the resources, supervised the research, and it meets my standards". Of course, the benefit to being PI is that in the end you get to decide who gets what authorship (or if they even get to be authors at all). It's odd for a PI to take 1st author though without a good reason since senior author is usually more desirable for an established scientist.
mmmcdowe
Duke of minimal vowels
Staff member
Administrator
Volunteer Staff
Lifetime Donor
15+ Year Member
- Joined
- Sep 13, 2008
- Messages
- 9,951
- Reaction score
- 1,984
Writing the whole paper has nothing to do with first author, nor does doing the most work. First author is, as you say for the biggest intellectual contribution. A PI, first or last in authorship, tends to be the biggest contributor intellectually even if the details and methodology were ironed out by others. This may be different in basic science, but in clinical research that has been my experience. Even when it isn't the case that they were a major contibutor, I am more speaking to the reality of the matter, which is that PIs will put who they want where they want on papers, rather than the theoretical way it SHOULD work.
Further, while a well established PI is happy to be last author, younger PIs want the exposure and still want to be first (which was the traditional place for a senior author to put himself. It is a more recent trend with senior authors putting themselves last. The confusion this has caused was somewhat alleviated by the addition of putting the "corresponding author's" information on the paper to indicate who actually was the brains behind everything.
- Joined
- Jun 12, 2012
- Messages
- 6,844
- Reaction score
- 3,046
It's not uncommon for undergraduates to be a first author on a lit review. I'm currently at a summer internship in a hospital and a couple of doctors have basically tried to bribe me with a first authorship to write invited literature reviews for them.
That being said, I do think that the OP should get first authorship for this. The way I'm seeing it is that the med student basically threw a topic at him and then came in at the end to polish it a bit.
That being said, I do think that the OP should get first authorship for this. The way I'm seeing it is that the med student basically threw a topic at him and then came in at the end to polish it a bit.
- Joined
- May 26, 2012
- Messages
- 1,605
- Reaction score
- 127
True. However, in this case, where the paper in question is just a review, unless the med student was reviewing/fact checking OP's work, I really can't see any argument for why the person who did all the writing and research wouldn't get first author. It's not like an experimental paper where there's a lot more that goes into the paper than just writing and research, or where coming up with the idea and design in the first place can be impressive. We're talking about a glorified research essay where literally nothing else goes into it other than writing and lit research.
👍+1
Repeat after me "life isn't fair". Also keep in mind that in a fight between two dogs over a bone, the bigger dog almost always wins, even if the little dog was the one who dug it up. The only thing that changes is how badly the little dog gets hurt in the process. You can either hand off the bone and make a friend of a big dog, or fight tooth and nail and walk away bruised and bloodied.
- Joined
- Sep 25, 2011
- Messages
- 2,272
- Reaction score
- 24
Grad Student: "You're getting second author, and I'm going to be first."
Undergrad:
Undergrad:
- Joined
- Jul 14, 2007
- Messages
- 6,874
- Reaction score
- 1,359
Well, it does suck but research is a lot more hierarchical than people are willing to admit. Can't really say you were "screwed" out of it when exactly who should be first author isn't always clear cut and dry.
- Joined
- Jun 24, 2010
- Messages
- 137
- Reaction score
- 0
I can't speak for medical, but in academia, in these situations, it still pretty much applies unless you want to really burn bridges. 🙁
- Joined
- Jul 10, 2011
- Messages
- 13
- Reaction score
- 0
Because this is a review article and not a research article, I do think you deserve first author. The intellectual contribution in the medical student's case is pretty minimal. Nonetheless, the unfortunate reality is that you're at the bottom of the research food chain. Things won't often go your way and though in principal you should be first author, I wouldn't fight it.
Like many posters have said, academic research is very political. For example, I was lucky enough to work with a PI who got invited to write four reviews while I was in his lab. I ended up writing all four, doing about 95% of the work myself while my PI did small edits and revisions. For two of the articles, I was put as first author. For the other two, I was shared first author while the person who got first author contributed absolutely nothing -- in fact I've never even met the guy.
Moral of the story: Research and publishing aren't fair, especially for measly undergrads. Just be happy with what you've got and move on.
Like many posters have said, academic research is very political. For example, I was lucky enough to work with a PI who got invited to write four reviews while I was in his lab. I ended up writing all four, doing about 95% of the work myself while my PI did small edits and revisions. For two of the articles, I was put as first author. For the other two, I was shared first author while the person who got first author contributed absolutely nothing -- in fact I've never even met the guy.
Moral of the story: Research and publishing aren't fair, especially for measly undergrads. Just be happy with what you've got and move on.
Last edited:
- Joined
- Aug 5, 2005
- Messages
- 3,835
- Reaction score
- 1,572
Is it just the 2 of you on the paper? If so, you got senior authorship which is just as good as first.
- Joined
- Jun 19, 2012
- Messages
- 4
- Reaction score
- 0
if its senior authorship definitely take it, regardless though getting any authorship is a big deal and being petty about it early in your career isn't going to help. i'm authored on 3 scientific papers in big journals and i took whatever authorship they gave me because more than the authorship its the experience that makes a difference.
- Joined
- Nov 12, 2009
- Messages
- 4,826
- Reaction score
- 2,712
lol is that how it's done in radonc? sounds like a win no matter what. 👍
In my field, with just two authors, the first author is the top dog by default.
- Joined
- Sep 7, 2003
- Messages
- 6,526
- Reaction score
- 108
Reviews are generally written by three types of authors: 1.) a true expert in the field, who uses his/her knowledge to compose an erudite condensation of a given topic.,2.) a junior faculty member who needs to publish (or perish) and doesn't have a critical mass of genuine data, and 3.) students looking for a cheap and easy way to add a line to their CVs.
Since you are in the third camp, forget squabbling about authorship and just be grateful if you can find a faculty member who is willing to actually push this thing through peer-review, which is actually much more annoying than writing the stupid thing.
As for all this talk of getting screwed, jipped [sic], and earning what you "deserve," I'm guessing you were one of those kids who got a trophy for trying.
- Joined
- May 26, 2007
- Messages
- 7,527
- Reaction score
- 4,516
Meh. I'd agree if he was getting jumped by the attending/professor PI (who probably has a better sense of who should be where on the publication anywhere) but he got jumped by a med student that doesn't sound like he did much (if any) work. The med student isn't going to push this thing through peer review, and he isn't even higher on the food chain than the OP in any meaningful sense (he's not one of the professor's grad students).
I say ask the PI about it. If he says no he says no.
- Joined
- Sep 7, 2003
- Messages
- 6,526
- Reaction score
- 108
Meh, yourself.
- Joined
- Mar 28, 2011
- Messages
- 618
- Reaction score
- 208
Your first mistake was wondering about the answer to this question in the first place. Just wondering throws you at second author whether you want it or not. The first author is the one that is the smartest in this sense. When you wrote the draft, you should have included yourself as first author and the med student as second. If the med student tried to contest, refuse. If the med student still contests, go to your PI with the situation. If the PI refuses, go to the police. If the police refuse, go to Obama. If Obama refuses, sue the United States of America.
Like I said; your first mistake was wondering about the answer to this question in the first place.
Like I said; your first mistake was wondering about the answer to this question in the first place.
- Joined
- May 26, 2007
- Messages
- 7,527
- Reaction score
- 4,516
- Joined
- Jul 24, 2010
- Messages
- 2,613
- Reaction score
- 740
Grad Student: "You're getting second author, and I'm going to be first."
Undergrad:
This lol.
