Did I miss this in another thread? UVA MS-1 expelled.

Discussion in 'Medical Students - MD' started by jw3600, Jan 6, 2019.

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  1. jw3600

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    Was shocked to see this on Reddit and not on SDN. Did I miss it?


    University Of Virginia Med Student Receives 1-Year Suspension For Exhibiting "Antagonistic And Disrespectful" Behavior During "Microaggressions" Lecture - The Clover Chronic

    My impression: kid is a jackass. Possibly has a psych diagnosis or substance abuse problem. Still shows how the administration has all the power. Smile and nod. Smile and nod.

    Also please tell me I’m not alone here. PhD in MICRO-AGGRESSIONS? Holy smokes. That’s gotta be a joke. All the PhDs on here should be considered victims of micro aggressions just for the mere proposal of that being a degree.
     
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  2. VA Hopeful Dr

    VA Hopeful Dr Senior Member
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    Thread in SPF about it. Key points:

    This was a lunch lecture, attendence not required nor do I believe it was material that he'd be tested on.

    Dude had a history of discipline problems already.

    He was an dingus during the meeting he had with admin about this incident. He recorded his various meetings and posted them online. Unwise move on his part.

    Long story short he's a jerk who had gotten in trouble previously for being a jerk and didn't shape up after being warned before.
     
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  3. EspressoDrip42

    EspressoDrip42 “I'd hate to die twice. It's so boring.”
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    Agreed with this. Kid seems like he was a provocateur.
     
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  4. OP
    OP
    jw3600

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    Oh. What's SPF?
     
  5. operaman

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    Wow this kid was a real piece of work! Good riddance and props to UVA for giving him the boot. I’m sure OP is correct that this kid was already a royal tool long before this incident. Judging by the trespassing warning from police he’s continued to defy the rules and clearly lacks any sort of insight. I’m sure he wants to spin this as liberals shouting down and persecuting a conservative but it’s obvious he’s just a tool.

    As I go along I find myself having less and less sympathy for these people. Here’s why:

    My parents are getting older. Both In their 70s now and gradually seeing more and more physicians. They frequently talk to me about what’s going on and what new doc they’re being sent to and they ask me to do some research and make sure it’s a good person. Then I imagine tools like this UVA kid and think of my mom or dad seeing them and it makes me queasy imagining people I love potentially placing their lives and trust in the hands of someone so terribly unprofessional. When I imagine the sort of doc I want my folks to see, I imagine a consummate professional - probably a similar image that we all have under such circumstances.

    So UVA, good riddance and major props to you for booting this guy now before he has a chance to really harm anyone.
     
  6. libertyyne

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    wait, they stopped the appeal process for his suspension because they issued a no-tresspass against him making him unable to attend an appeal. That sounds crazy. The dude does sound like a douche sooo there is that.
     
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  7. VA Hopeful Dr

    VA Hopeful Dr Senior Member
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    I'm sure there's more to it than that
     
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  8. Oso

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    Ugh, reading the comments at the bottom of the article just ruined 2019 for me.
     
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  9. DrSnips

    DrSnips Hospitalist
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    There might be, but there doesn't have to be. Universities play by their own rules. If they want someone out for the content of their speech, then that person is out. Drumming up a no-trespass warning is actually fairly clever if the administration wants to appear like they didn't expel him just for his speech, but they don't want to risk him returning when the suspension is up.
     
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  10. VA Hopeful Dr

    VA Hopeful Dr Senior Member
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    Possibly, we just don't know.

    The question is why did this get issued? Is this standard procedure when anyone gets suspended? If not, what did he do differently?
     
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  11. DrSnips

    DrSnips Hospitalist
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    True. Only the administration knows why everything that's happening is happening. Well, and maybe Mr. Suspension himself.
     
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  12. bananafish94

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  13. Patrick Bateman's Brother

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    He must not like the punch. He’s gotta learn to at least drink the punch.

    From experience, people who are easily offended are harder to work with and negatively impact team cohesion.
     
  14. OP
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    jw3600

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    Let’s talk about how this boneheaded administration brought someone with a proclaimed PhD in Microaggressions to talk about being offended? Are they trying to give Ben Shapiro ammunition?
     
  15. libertyyne

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    OMG read some of the 4chan threads. I also read listened to the committee meeting. This guy watched a little too many ben shapiro and alex jones vids. He wanted to own the committee that was evaluating him for professionalism. He was antagonistic the entire time. I cant listen to anymore because it is soo cringe worthy. He also created many or incited many threads in reddit and 4chan which almost sound like a witch hunt against the members of the committee. I can clearly see why a no trespass would be issued especially if the committee received harassment from online communities that he incited. This was a case of self-ownage. When keeping it real goes wrong.
     
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    #15 libertyyne, Jan 6, 2019
    Last edited: Jan 6, 2019
  16. operaman

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    Bingo. The no trespass thing really cinches it. They must have felt the threats and harassment were enough to suspend his appeals process entirely. I’d have done the same thing if I were the dean.

    Sounds like he won’t ever be darkening the door of another medical school ever again!
     
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  17. operaman

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    As opposed to???? Someone with a bachelors in it?

    Personally I think some of the PC/SJW stuff goes too far but I’d much rather listen to someone talk about it who has dedicated real time and scholarship to it than just a random person who likes to tweet about it.
     
  18. operaman

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    The only tragedy in this whole thing is that the inevitable lawsuit will probably get tossed at summary judgment and we will never get to see UVA lay out the full pattern of asshattery this guy displayed.
     
  19. raiderette

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    Can't believe he tried to doxx committee members.
     
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  20. MerYangBey

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    So were there other instances of inappropriate behavior or was it just the lunch lecture that got him sent to the committee hearing?
    I feel like the lunch thing might have been inappropriate but not enough to warrant that type of response?
     
  21. raiderette

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    From what I got from Reddit and 4chan, he posted a lot of stuff. After this hearing was posted online, he pushed 4chan users to harass committee members.
     
  22. libertyyne

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    if you listen to the committee meeting you will get why the response seems appropriate. The meeting itself was an example of inappropriate behavior. He literally asks during it can you provide me with an example of inappropriate behavior, and the committee member responds with "your behavior here."

    In all seriousness the dude seems like he needs psychiatric care. He also failed a heme exam right before this so I am wondering if that was contributing to his going off the rails.
     
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  23. MerYangBey

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    I just listened to it. And I totally agree. But I feel like the school should need more than that lunch incident to call him into the meeting in the first place.
     
  24. libertyyne

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    If you listen to the meeting it talks about incidents with the dean, and other class members that prompted the meeting. They go out of their way to say that lunch meeting was not the only incident.
     
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  25. MerYangBey

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    Oh okay. I very much hate the idea of a committee ambushing a student because of one bad judgment call. But clearly that’s not the case here.
     
  26. Goro

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    SDN's cesspool. But I like it for Thoracicguy's. SurfingDoc's, and VA Hopefuls posts.

    I didn't see any mention of this in the SPF [email protected] Hopeful Dr , can you link?

    I will look over these threads tomorrow, but you guy should be aware that "tip of the iceberg" phenomenon is very real.
     
    #26 Goro, Jan 6, 2019
    Last edited: Jan 7, 2019
  27. libertyyne

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    even if you get ambushed, you act like an adult, not a recalcitrant child.
     
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  28. operaman

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    Seriously. All he had to say was “I got a little heated at the lunch lecture and I realize in retrospect that my behavior was out of line. I would like to apologize to the people who were there and who I confronted immediately afterwards while I was still upset. I’ve already started getting some professional assistance to help me better manage this sort of thing as well as some other stressors I was facing at the time, and I can assure everyone that nothing like this will happen again.”

    Shoot, dude coulda said half of that and he’d be studying for his next exam right now rather than doxxing his faculty and whining to 4chan that the media doesn’t care about his story.
     
  29. MerYangBey

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    True but the burden of proof needs to fall on the school. They can’t be calling these meetings over hearsay or without documented incidents. Or at least they shouldn’t be able to. If there was no meeting he wouldn’t have had the chance to act like a child. I guess my whole point is about due process.
    It’s not necessarily about just this specific case.
     
  30. libertyyne

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    This is not a court of law. They can call a meeting for what ever they think is inappropriate. Another reason to stay on the straight and narrow until you are a full fledged attending .


    When you are a physician employers don't need to have the burden of proof to fire you in right to work states nor do patients need that to file complaints and lawsuits against you. It is still in your best interest to act like an adult and not livetweet pictures from disciplinary meetings.
     
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  31. Aerus

    Aerus Elemental Alchemist
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    You seem offended by a talk about microaggressions lol. They exist, so why not bring in an expert to talk about it. It's an important thing for doctors to recognize. This wasn't even part of the curriculum, so why is this an issue?
     
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  32. Stagg737

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    I think they were surprised by the idea that someone actually did a full dissertation on microaggressions and that a medical school actually felt like it was worthwhile to bring them in to speak about it. I can't say I completely disagree with that either. Pretty much every mentally healthy/stable individual I've encountered seems to have been well-adjusted enough to handle microaggressions (even persistent ones) while those who seem to be the most vocal about them seem to either display pretty obvious psychiatric pathology or be painfully far into liberal territory.

    I would also rather hear someone who has studied it extensively talk about it than Joe Blow, but I also know that not all PhDs are equal and I've met a few people with PhDs who made me wonder how the individual even got a bachelor's degree. We obviously can't really judge without hearing the talk or seeing a transcript for ourselves, but given the generally left-leaning stance of most academic institutions I would guess there would likely be some level of bias involved in this type of presentation.
     
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  33. LutGholein

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    I think he essentially shot himself in the foot.
     
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  34. operaman

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    That’s true. The decision to do a dissertation on such a topic could definitely select for a certain type of person. If you made a lineup of ten randomly selected people and one of them did a PhD in microaggressions, I’ll bet I could pick them out of the lineup every single time.

    That said, I would hope they tried to find someone who has done some semblance of scholarship on the topic. Sometimes those kinds of talks surprise me and I come away learning something; other times I just quietly roll my eyes and wait for the pendulum to swing back toward the center again.

    These talks seem to be well intentioned. Although my experience in medicine has been rather idyllic, I do recognize that isn’t the case for many people and I’m sure microaggressions have played a role for many. That said, sometimes these sessions devolve into more of a catharsis for those who feel they’ve been wronged rather than anything truly educational or useful for anyone else. Maybe that’s enough though.
     
  35. raiderette

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    Regardless of the topic, can you imagine this guy as a 3rd year? If he wasn't smart enough to be respectful during a lunch lecture, then during a hearing, can you imagine him during rounds? He seems like the kind of person who can't accept criticism. Even worse, he is making himself out to be a victim on other sites when he should have just apologized.
     
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  36. getdown

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    wow what a jackass. I don't think I would have been as patient as those committee members when this clown started spewing his bull**** and trying to define individual words. I bet it was such a nice feeling to write and tell him he's been expelled.
     
  37. DarkHorizon

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    On top of it, he published it all online to see what a jackass he is. He’s done.
     
    #37 DarkHorizon, Jan 7, 2019
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 7, 2019
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  38. VA Hopeful Dr

    VA Hopeful Dr Senior Member
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    It's buried in the SJW thread:
     
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    #38 VA Hopeful Dr, Jan 7, 2019
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  39. Lucca

    Lucca Will Walk Rope for Sandwich
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    We’ve had maybe a dozen of these “omg the fascist/Stalinist administration at my medical school is threatening to RUIN MY MEDICAL CAREER and LIFE for No Reason (TM)” on SDN over the years, but the amount of self-ownage in this story is insane. The recordings are deeply concerning but the 4chan stuff is straight up scary.

    The stories all follow a pretty basic structure:

    1. A pattern of terrible or unacceptable behavior from a med student forces the hand of the administration.
    2. Said student does nothing at all to improve or change their behavior and aggressively resists traditional routes of mediation and reconciliation.
    3. Administration escalates the punishment.
    4. Student posts all over the internet about how they are the victim of a horrible injustice and tries to drum up sympathy from strangers on the internet by broadly appealing to hysteria about SJW postmodern neo-Marxists or whatever trying to destroy Western Civilization and med students having very little power in confronting administrative power.
    5. Internet gets the pitch forks and torches ready.
    6. It comes to light that the “one-time, super small, nbd clerical error” from the student’s OP was a string of egregious conduct violations, maybe even serious breaches of the law.
    7. OP disappears forever.

    Just from the top of my head I can remember three instances just like this that played out on SDN in recent memory:

    1. That Canadian medical student who was being expelled for a “small clerical error” who turned out to have forged every single signature on his last rotation as an M4 and was expelled like a month before graduating because the admin found out.

    2. that time a student was expelled for secretly taking pictures of his classmates and posting them on pornographic websites.

    3. This time with Mr. I-am-very-smart
     
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  40. EspressoDrip42

    EspressoDrip42 “I'd hate to die twice. It's so boring.”
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    Way too much Ben Shapiro for this kid. No sympathy for him, unfortunately. He did this to himself.
     
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  41. Mad Jack

    Mad Jack Critically Caring
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    Sounds like the kind of guy that would be a miserable coresident, they did the profession a favor
     
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  42. sb247

    sb247 Doer of things
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    Sociopolitical forum.

    It’s been blinded so it cannot be seen or searched unless you actually have the link to get in because people who aren’t ready for dissenting opinions would wander in and get really offended.

    I can link you to the forum via pm if you want
     
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  43. mehc012

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    I've been ambushed by a committee after one bad judgement call (not even as egregious as this guy's behavior in the lecture, just got defensive in a single meeting with someone who was in a bad mood). I behaved so respectfully and professionally, both in my written communications with the person after I knew they were upset with me but before I knew there was an official complaint, and in the committee meeting itself, that they actually asked me if someone else had written my emails and statement and/or coached me, because I sounded so unlike the student they expected from the initial complaint.

    Fortunately, my school pays good attention and most of the faculty I interact with hold me in good esteem, so all subsequent interactions with the admins basically treat the incident as a freak misunderstanding early in M1 that reflects more poorly on the faculty involved than on me - even the original party admits that the original concerns were not borne out.

    There are jump-to-conclusions mishaps, but there is a right and a wrong way to handle them.
     
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  44. OP
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    jw3600

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    I am. In the definition of microagressions is basically admitting that the offending person had no mal intent. That’s what I care about. Victim culture has gone off the deep end.
     
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  45. operaman

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    And this my friends is why you act like a professional when confronted with a scary potentially career ending issue.

    This doesn’t stop after med school. Residents get hauled before their PD or chairman for misunderstandings - I’ve been lucky but have had colleagues who experienced this. They behaved like adults and had no other issues and are practicing attendings now. I’ve seen attendings get hauled before the CMO or chief of Surgery for something blown out of proportion. They too behaved like professionals and have continued their fine careers.

    We’ve all heard the stories of residents and attendings who got called out and behaved like dbags. They are now pursuing other non clinical endeavors.
     
  46. OP
    OP
    jw3600

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    Lol
     
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  47. Dr.Bruh

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    Ben Shapiro only debates unsuspecting college freshman in front of other college freshman bc they are the only ones naive enough to think he’s saying anything remotely logical or intelligent
     
  48. sb247

    sb247 Doer of things
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    His speeches are announced and people have to ask to speak to him on microphone, he is ambushing no one and they are not “unsuspecting”
     
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  49. Osminog

    Osminog Future Doctopus (c/o '23)

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    Had he been allowed to enter residency, he probably would've become a right-wing version of Eugene Gu.
     
  50. atomi

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    What are you talking about? Ben Shapiro has debated countless figureheads in the media and political pundits and tends to win each time by using a fact-based logical and calm style that irritates his opponent driving them into emotional self-destruction. There’s hundreds of interviews on YouTube not involving college freshmen. Just because you don’t like his opinions and social commentary doesn’t mean you get to lie like that - “only debates college freshmen”.

    This UVA kid was clearly trying emulate his style but failed in every possible way:
    1. Smug a-hole attitude without a commensurate earned public standing or position of authority to exert said attitude? Check.
    2. Shakey voice and pressured speech that undermines his own confidence in truly believing that he is not in the wrong? Check.
    3. Makes edgy and snarky comments but can’t back them up with anything of substance other than hemming and hawing and repeating the question over and over? Check.
    4. Emotionally un-raveling while his opponents stay calm and professional, when it is supposed to go the other way around? Check.
    5. Complete lack of insight as to who came out looking like the winner of the debate? Check.
    6. Walking into an argument/picking a fight having done no homework on the matter and totally ignorant of the context of what the conversation is about? Double check.
    7. Complete failure at trying to use the internet as an effective platform for your voice? Epic check.

    So, no, it’s not like this kid simply watched too much Ben Shapiro. It’s like this kid watched too much Ben Shapiro, poorly tried to copy his tone and use of language only, then went through great efforts to do everything completely opposite from the way Ben Shapiro does it.

    Add in a sprinkling of what appears to be some undiagnosed mental illness, and we have this train wreck unfolding for everyone’s entertainment.

    If wonder if med school adcoms go back and do post-mortem root cause failure analyses in situations like this to figure out how people slip through the cracks.
     
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