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Did you agree to a non compete?

tartesos

Medalaganario
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Jan 24, 2011
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    Restrictive covenants suck... In some underserved areas they are not enforced( like where I'm training) but the job I like has one for 10 miles/12 months or a pay out of the last 12 months income... If broken.

    I feel a little uneasy moving my family somewhere and then things go wrong... Or some of the causes of termination stated in the contract( not all the time enforced I know) like loosing/ not keeping privileges have license on probation, unprofessional misconduct.... What if I decide to try blow for the first time and get drunk and pulled over?

    In all seriousness, it's an uneasy feeling, I have all intentions of making the place my home and giving my all to make it work, but the what if(... With my family depending on me) torments my hours.

    Did you guys negotiate this on your contracts or accepted any restricted covenants on yours?
    In all fairness 10 miles is not that bad, I could still commute out of town or do Locums a year and then come back...

    Am I getting an ulcer in vain here?
     

    gutonc

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      Restrictive covenants suck... In some underserved areas they are not enforced( like where I'm training) but the job I like has one for 10 miles/12 months or a pay out of the last 12 months income... If broken.

      I feel a little uneasy moving my family somewhere and then things go wrong... Or some of the causes of termination stated in the contract( not all the time enforced I know) like loosing/ not keeping privileges have license on probation, unprofessional misconduct.... What if I decide to try blow for the first time and get drunk and pulled over?

      In all seriousness, it's an uneasy feeling, I have all intentions of making the place my home and giving my all to make it work, but the what if(... With my family depending on me) torments my hours.

      Did you guys negotiate this on your contracts or accepted any restricted covenants on yours?
      In all fairness 10 miles is not that bad, I could still commute out of town or do Locums a year and then come back...

      Am I getting an ulcer in vain here?
      You can certainly try to negotiate it but it will depend on who you're negotiating with? Small multi-specialty or single specialty group? You might get that removed. Large hospital system/university employed position? Not happening.

      As far as I'm concerned though, unless this is somewhere in the middle of nowhere, a 10 mile restriction is nothing. I have to drive farther than that to get between the 2 different offices where I work. I think you're getting worked up over nothing...but it can't hurt to ask.
       
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      tartesos

      Medalaganario
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      1. Attending Physician
        You can certainly try to negotiate it but it will depend on who you're negotiating with? Small multi-specialty or single specialty group? You might get that removed. Large hospital system/university employed position? Not happening.

        As far as I'm concerned though, unless this is somewhere in the middle of nowhere, a 10 mile restriction is nothing. I have to drive farther than that to get between the 2 different offices where I work. I think you're getting worked up over nothing...but it can't hurt to ask.

        Thank you for responding!
        It's true that it's nothing. And this is a health and hospital corporation so I figured it's not happening.

        I am getting drowned in a glass of water as my mom says.

        It's a big decision.
         
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        gutonc

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      • Mar 6, 2005
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          Thank you for responding!
          It's true that it's nothing. And this is a health and hospital corporation so I figured it's not happening.

          I am getting drowned in a glass of water as my mom says.
          Like NYC HHC? Because no, you're not getting them to change anything.
           

          Promethean

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            I have spoken out against geographic noncompetes elsewhere recently, but that is one of the more reasonable ones that I have ever seen. Ten miles? 12 months?

            I'd sign that happily, and abide by it faithfully if the job were otherwise to my liking. If things don't go well, you have to practice at least one town over for a year? No problem.

            Truly restrictive covenants are for years and a much wider radius.
             
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            tartesos

            Medalaganario
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              Like NYC HHC? Because no, you're not getting them to change anything.

              I trained in an HHC hospital! Been there done that never going back!

              It's a Corp like Hca, chs.

              I've been researching and reading and I'm much more calmed now! Thanks for your input!

              A friend of mine signed a 100 miles 2 y dnc...

              It's a great group of people and I don't foresee anything bad, my tolerance for bs is quite high too! I'm Hispanic, and youngest of 5 boys and with an accent.
               
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              tartesos

              Medalaganario
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                Devils is in details. How do they define 10 miles. Do they more than one clinic and it counts 10 miles from each site? There are plenty of ways they could theoretically make 10 miles the whole state. If in doubt. Get a contract review person

                It's from one site only. I'm getting a recommended cl review that. Won't be cheap but it's for my peace of mind...

                It's a stressful ordeal... It's my first actual job contract and I'm in my 30's. After 8 years of training finally coming to an end! I would have thought it would be easier by now!

                I just want it to be over with. I'm not afraid of work when I get there and I can adapt to anything...
                 
                D

                deleted547339

                  Obviously not a lawyer, so take this with a big grain of salt.

                  Is this for pulm, cc or a combined job? For a pulmonary practice, a non compete (particularly one as benign as stated above) is totally reasonable. They don't want you getting a panel of pulm patients and hanging a shingle. I would not lose sleep over that. I've heard of some that are like 3 years and 50-100 miles or something crazy like that.

                  For CC alone, there's no reason to have a restrictive covenant. Similar to EM, people don't pick the hospital because of the CC doc on call. I know they've found that restrictive covenants are not enforceable in my current state for EM. We've had an attorney come and tell us to always request it struck through, and if they won't he said he would blow it off because it's not legal. Ask a healthcare contracts attorney in your state and it should be very easy for them to answer.
                   
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                  jdh71

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                  1. Attending Physician
                    Restrictive covenants suck... In some underserved areas they are not enforced( like where I'm training) but the job I like has one for 10 miles/12 months or a pay out of the last 12 months income... If broken.

                    I feel a little uneasy moving my family somewhere and then things go wrong... Or some of the causes of termination stated in the contract( not all the time enforced I know) like loosing/ not keeping privileges have license on probation, unprofessional misconduct.... What if I decide to try blow for the first time and get drunk and pulled over?

                    In all seriousness, it's an uneasy feeling, I have all intentions of making the place my home and giving my all to make it work, but the what if(... With my family depending on me) torments my hours.

                    Did you guys negotiate this on your contracts or accepted any restricted covenants on yours?
                    In all fairness 10 miles is not that bad, I could still commute out of town or do Locums a year and then come back...

                    Am I getting an ulcer in vain here?

                    Basically what they are saying is that you can't leave their system and set up a private practice in town ostensibly taking your patients with you for at least a year. It's probably not that big of a deal.

                    Though most patients will easily drive farther than 10 miles to see a specialist so it doesn't have much teeth and these things are largely unenforceable and courts have generally consistently sided with physicians
                     
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                    tartesos

                    Medalaganario
                    10+ Year Member
                    Jan 24, 2011
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                    Next to the middle of nowhere.
                    1. Attending Physician
                      Obviously not a lawyer, so take this with a big grain of salt.

                      Is this for pulm, cc or a combined job? For a pulmonary practice, a non compete (particularly one as benign as stated above) is totally reasonable. They don't want you getting a panel of pulm patients and hanging a shingle. I would not lose sleep over that. I've heard of some that are like 3 years and 50-100 miles or something crazy like that.

                      For CC alone, there's no reason to have a restrictive covenant. Similar to EM, people don't pick the hospital because of the CC doc on call. I know they've found that restrictive covenants are not enforceable in my current state for EM. We've had an attorney come and tell us to always request it struck through, and if they won't he said he would blow it off because it's not legal. Ask a healthcare contracts attorney in your state and it should be very easy for them to answer.

                      Thanks! It's Pulm/Ccm.
                      The lawyer is on it!
                      I'll get that thing done and open my board pass present by my wife of Glenlivet 25 y/o.

                       

                      BICpaid

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                        In my previous job, the noncompete clause not only prevented me from working for another hospital but also prevented me from doing any private business. I couldn't do any consulting or get money from anything else etc etc..... Probably couldnt even start a ebay store


                        Yeah go read it.
                         

                        Mad Jack

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                          In my previous job, the noncompete clause not only prevented me from working for another hospital but also prevented me from doing any private business. I couldn't do any consulting or get money from anything else etc etc..... Probably couldnt even start a ebay store


                          Yeah go read it.
                          How is that even remotely enforceable? There isn't exactly a lot of legal precedent for claiming that your, say, side job selling burgers is going to ethically compromise you or result in diversion of patients. Ridiculous.
                           

                          jdh71

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                            I need to look at mine again. I will probably ask that my restriction be made specialty specific.

                            I have some ideas about a "fitness clinic". A cash only kind of business. Targeting a niche cohort but I think in my area could potentially be a money maker with clearly better hours than I have now. Maybe something that would allow me to move to .5 to .67 FTE in my current role without stabbing my income in the face.
                             
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                            tartesos

                            Medalaganario
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                            Jan 24, 2011
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                            1. Attending Physician
                              I need to look at mine again. I will probably ask that my restriction be made specialty specific.

                              I have some ideas about a "fitness clinic". A cash only kind of business. Targeting a niche cohort but I think in my area could potentially be a money maker with clearly better hours than I have now. Maybe something that would allow me to move to .5 to .67 FTE in my current role without stabbing my income in the face.


                              When ready for a partner let me know!!

                              :)
                               
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                              tartesos

                              Medalaganario
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                                In my previous job, the noncompete clause not only prevented me from working for another hospital but also prevented me from doing any private business. I couldn't do any consulting or get money from anything else etc etc..... Probably couldnt even start a ebay store


                                Yeah go read it.


                                Mine is not that bad. And it states I can do medicine in town as long is it is not with one of the other 2 hospitals for 1 y.

                                That contract sucks!! I've heard of some in academic institutions where a friend of mine works all income must be reported and any extra medical income must come from the institution( even moonlighting, directorships etc).

                                Blows.
                                 

                                Hernandez

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                                  When ready for a partner let me know!!

                                  :)

                                  But are their enough bike riding hipsters that you could run VO2 maxes on them


                                  ....yeah. I kinda wanna check mine. I wonder if the lab needs to calibrate their equipment.
                                   
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                                  jdh71

                                  Grim Optimist.
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                                    But are their enough bike riding hipsters that you could run VO2 maxes on them


                                    ....yeah. I kinda wanna check mine. I wonder if the lab needs to calibrate their equipment.

                                    Definitely depends on your market.

                                    What is interesting though . . . most of the people "competing" (in quotes for a reason because most folks aren't sponsored or trying to "win" but racing to race) in distance events, especially anything "ultra" or combined with a bike (tris or bis) is generally upper middle class with some disposable money to burn . . .
                                     
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                                    rabbott1971

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                                      You might check with a local lawyer. Those clauses are not looked upon favorably, because they restrain freedom and inhibit economic activity. If it was not drafted perfectly, it could have no effect. Sorry it got you in a jam!
                                       

                                      tartesos

                                      Medalaganario
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                                        Damn, sorry to hear that. What happened if you don't mind my asking...

                                        In summary everything was going great but suddenly one partner gone, q2 call for 5 months, empty promises no coverage , got sick of it, resigned, threatened to be sued yada yada yada.


                                        Sent from my iPhone using SDN mobile
                                         

                                        tartesos

                                        Medalaganario
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                                        Jan 24, 2011
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                                        Next to the middle of nowhere.
                                        1. Attending Physician
                                          You might check with a local lawyer. Those clauses are not looked upon favorably, because they restrain freedom and inhibit economic activity. If it was not drafted perfectly, it could have no effect. Sorry it got you in a jam!

                                          It was drafted perfectly but there's a gray area that lawyer is looking into.


                                          Sent from my iPhone using SDN mobile
                                           
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