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[Kent Ray]

I was wondering if everyone knew about Nova's plans to open a new Osteopathic school in Honduras? I was browsing their web site the other day and was amazed with the amount of money being spent on new facilities. A new 300,000 sq ft library, a new school..etc.
I guess what bothers me is the quality of their thrid and fourth year rotations. I know they are no different than any other Osteopathic school. I just figured that if they have enough money to do what they are doing than they probably have enough money to pay full time clinical faculty.
I am a graduate of DMU. Our rotations are the same as NOVA, which are the same as most other Osteopathic schools. Osteopathic schools are depending on Allopathic institutions to provide us with an education. God knows that our private Osteopathic hospitals are not doing the job. How can you expect a private physician to take one to two hours out of their day to teach? But the schools keep insisting that this is a good way to educate. Let me tell you since I have been on both sides, that private AOA approved hospitals are not a good place for education.
Take for example, the ACGME (allopathic) requires that all allopathic programs have 4.5 hours of teaching a week. This doesn't count bedside rounds.
It is my opinion that the AOA and most Osteopathic schools are failing in their duties as educators. Their standards are poor and teaching hospitals are not even held to the current standards.
If I were you I would not even think about doing an Osteopathic residency. Sure their are some that are good and I have not worked at every Osteopathic approved hospital. But I can tell you this, if your attending is not compensated for teaching than sooner or later they will get tired of doing it.
By the way I will be completing an Osteopathic internship at Bi-County/Henry Ford in June.
Any questions please email me [email protected]

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[UHS2002]

Ok, then, let me put a good word for the program at UHS-COM. Our "affiliate residency program" is at the Medical Center of Independence. Since I am a MS3, I really cannot comment on the overall quality of the residency program, but I can certainly comment on the quality of the rotations at MCI. We have enough didactics to last us a lifetime...Every morning there is a morning conference, then 4 days a week there is a noon conference. This is on top of the teaching that the individual services offer, which often offer their own didactics, on top of the hospital-wide ones. This is also a busy hospital, so you will not find yourself with a lot of idle time in your hands.
In my current rotation, not at MCI, but still in KC, we have great didactics. Morning and noon, plus we are assigned additional readings and presentations by the attendings. My prior rotation, at a different hospital, had noon conference 4 days a week and a full afternoon of didactics once a week.
My point? Perhaps there are some DO programs that have difficulty finding good rotations for their students, but I know first hand that UHS is not one of them. Hence, I am assuming that there are several others just as good.
One of my preceptors during my first 2 years of med school (who is a MD, by the way) has been taking students from UHS for 14 years for rotations. He hasn't grown tired of it yet...

 

[Kent Ray]

UHS2002,
Thanks for the reply. Morning report and noon lecture take place in every hospital, Osteopathic or Allopathic that I have been to. What I am talking about is active teaching. Actual bedside rounds in addition to non rounding teaching (not morning report or noon lecture) including case based learning headed by an attending (normally at least an 1.5 hrs/day). I hope that your hospital offers this.
I have a very good friend that is a third year at UHS (Jeff Ryder). If you see him tell him I said hello.
By the way. KC is just like all the other midwest Osteopathic schools. Well tell me this, does KC own a hospital? The answer is no. So, if not tell me how can they mandate that attendings take enough time with you. The thing is that your education is up to the whim of the attending you are with. What can the school do to the attending that is not teaching. Well they can't get rid of him, can't write him up. They could stop sending students and that is it.


Kent Ray, D.O.

 

[RollTide]

You do this every couple of months to start a little trouble on the message boards. So if you want answers to the questions you asked, try the threads you started on this exact same topic this past summer. You should limit what you say to what you know, DMU and NSU are nothing alike in the way clinical rotations are stuctured so if you feel the need to bitch about the education at the school you attended, feel free, but please don't pretend to be knowledgeble about clinical years at NSU. BTW I think the school you are talking about is going to be located in the Dominican Republic not Hondurus.

 

[Neurogirl]

From what I've seen, I can understand why you were frustrated with DMU. I spent a good part of my 3rd year with a DMU senior. He had to do EVERYTHING himself, with virtually no help from the administrative dept. Needless to say, he was very disappointed in his school. However, not all osteo schools have such problems.

Also, regarding didactics, I spent all my elective time at different allopathic institutions and can honestly say that the quality of teaching I recieved at my 3rd yr osteo hospital was very comparable. I'll be the first to admit that many of the osteo schools need to focus more on the clinical years and less on expansion, but really, I think you're being a little melodramatic.


[This message has been edited by Neurogirl (edited 01-28-2001).]

 

[drusso]

I have to agree. I think that the quality of clinical education in the third and fourth years varies quite a bit between all medical schools (DO or MD). I will say that I think the public DO schools and some of the larger private ones do a better job of structuring their clincal years than the smaller, private DO schools do.

It's was actually a stroke of luck that most smaller DO schools de-invested themselves of hospital ownership since restructuring in the reimbursement of medical education and residencies have really put a tremendous squeeze on teaching hospitals. There is not a single academic hospital out there that isn't losing money.

Relatedly, in a recent conversation with a ACGME residency director, he remarked that one of the biggest differences he saw between DO and MD PGY-I's was that (in general) DO PGY-I's were more self-starters. Maybe that reflects a difference in training (being left largely responsible for your own self-education), or maybe that reflects a difference in how DO schools pick their classes---I don't know.

With respects to opening DO schools abroad, I know that there is an interest in international osteopathic medical education as means to improve international recognition of the DO degree. It is my understanding that stakeholders in this process (individual DO schools, host countries, and organized osteopathic medicine) are going great lengths to make certain that these international schools train and retain their own citizens. That is, no one wants to follow the for-profit Caribbean model.

 

[Toran]

Would the international, American based, DO school train US citizens as well? Does that mean that American students who wish to get foreign exposure would be able to train in another country (like Honduras or wherever), and still be fully able to practice in the US?
I ask because OMM is taught much differently in France and Britain, and those OSTEOPATHS are not able to practice as a physician in the US. I might argue that OMM is taught more intensely in the European countries, although that would be another discussion.
Toran

 

[MSUCOM2003]

Hello future colleagues!


The president of the ACOFP recently spoke at our college. In discussing the recent upward trends in osteopathic applicants and students, he made it very clear that the leadership at many DO schools (mainly private ones) is looking to capitalize on this. He cited statistics showing that a few schools are planning to increase MS1 enrollment to 3-400. He also talked about the schools opening abroad, and again, was very clear that US citizens would fill these spots. Regardless of the intent, I believe that these new schools, as well as the increased enrollment will compromise the integrity of the DO degree, that has been fought for tooth and nail over the last 30 years. Although I feel that our clinical training (I can only speak for MSU) is excellent, I have to agree with Kent. The profession should be looking inward to strengthen itself. Money going to new schools could be used to build high caliber research facilities at existing institutions, provide start-up funds for DO investigators, and provide diverse clerkship opportunities for existing students. Just my 2 cents.

 

[Kent Ray]

Originally posted by RollTide:
You do this every couple of months to start a little trouble on the message boards. So if you want answers to the questions you asked, try the threads you started on this exact same topic this past summer. You should limit what you say to what you know, DMU and NSU are nothing alike in the way clinical rotations are stuctured so if you feel the need to bitch about the education at the school you attended, feel free, but please don't pretend to be knowledgeble about clinical years at NSU. BTW I think the school you are talking about is going to be located in the Dominican Republic not Hondurus.

RollTide,
Thanks for your responce but you are wrong. I actually know a great deal about both DMU and NSU and both schools have the exact same clinical education.
Many of our students rotate through your hospitals and several of my intern friends are from NSU.
One more thing. I will post on this board whenever I want, and I will say the same thing over and over and over.
By the way what do you think about opening a new Osteopathic school!

 

[prefontaine]

From my experience(s), I have to agree with
Kent Ray. The quality of rotations at most of the AOA schools is second rate compared with the LCME programs. Too, there are very few AOA residencies that I would recommend.
The feedback I have received re UHS, DMU, Nova and Kirksvilles core rotations suggest that many of them are second rate.

He should be commended for posting his observations, not vilified. Those that end up at an ACGME academic teaching center will see the difference...and if objective, will probably be disappointed with their core experiences.



[This message has been edited by prefontaine (edited 02-09-2001).]