Didn't get into any APA programs in Clinical Psych - Seeking advice

[Fali1991]

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Hello all. This is a sad day indeed, although I knew what I was getting myself into, I was quite sure I would get an interview at the least.

I applied to 19 APA-Accredited clinical psychology Ph.D. programs. I did not limit myself geographically. I didn't spread myself too thin either. I had researched all of the professors I applied to very extensively (reached out to them as well in advance) and I believed to be a good fit for the programs.

I enjoy research very much. My university is very well known on the west coast and it has been engrained in me that the APA route is the only way. I am at a crossroads now. I am financially stable, but that doesn't mean I want to go to a "diploma mill", especially since I worked so hard during my undergraduate career to gather research experience and familiarize myself with the graduate student life. I would like a "respected" degree. I do not plan to work in the government sector, however, with the current job market I don't want to shoot myself in the foot either.

What my professors are suggesting:
-"I wouldn't blame you if you went the depth psychology route/ non-APA"
-Don't apply this cycle again (Fall), instead do 1.5 years of more research, authorship and demonstrate more ability to carry out responsibility
-Get higher GPA then apply in 2019 for 2020 admittance

What my friends (some of whom have gone the depth psychology route, some who know people who have non-APA accredited degrees who are doing well)
-Go the depth psychology route if you have the money
-You might continue doing this for 1.5 years and then STILL not get in

I am pretty sure I will be getting lots of replies from people discouraging me from going the non-APA route. But since there are no guarantees that I would get in, even with a strong application, I am entertaining other ideas and weighing out my options.

Career goal: Private practice
I would like to practice in California in terms of licensure

When I applied back in November:
GPA: 3.89
Research Experience: 2.5 years, worked in three labs simultaneously, lead author on two undergraduate research projects, name on two other UROPS, two conference presentations at the yearly undergraduate research symposium of the university
Received four separate research grants totaling $2500
GRE: V150 Q 146 W 5- I took it twice and did as best as I could, I am not a good test taker
Very good letters of rec who personally know many of the professors I applied to
Very, very good statements of purpose. I had a dozen people look over them.

This year I:
-Will have hopefully published my project
-Will have an APS poster presentation at the SF conference this year
-Am now a study coordinator
-Will be authoring with my professor on previous findings from former students

One of the non-APA schools I am currently looking at is only WASC accredited for the record.

I am dead set on Ph.D. in clinical psychology. MAP, MFT, MSW etc. are not going to be a part of my path.

I would appreciate any insight from the APA and non-APA oriented folks
Thank you

 

[bcliff]

I’m not sure what is meant by depth psychology? And by APA/non-APA, you’re talking about accreditation?

APA-accreditation is the minimum standard of doctoral training in the field of professional psychology. By attending a non-accredited doctoral program, you would be ineligible to apply for an internship through APPIC (Introduction and General Information about the APPIC Match), which would preclude you from pursuing an APA-accredited internship (i.e., I believe all APA-accredited internships are also APPIC accredited?). Even if allowed to apply for non-APPIC but yes-APA accredited internships, many (most?) APA-accredited internships require attendance at an APA-accredited doctoral program. Failure to obtain both an APA-accredited doctoral degree and internship would subsequently preclude you from obtaining licensure in many states and would close many doors to you professionally. Additionally, California already has an oversaturated psychology market as is, so carving out a niche in that market with suboptimal training would be, at the very least, an uphill battle (if not a losing one).

If your end goal is to work as a clinician or practitioner in private practice, then it would likely be in your best interest to pursue an MSW or related degree (MSW is likely the most versatile/transportable). An MSW from any state school will be more respected than a PhD/PsyD in clinical psychology from a non-APA accredited institution (APA accreditation is the lower bound of training standards.. definitely not the upper bound), will take significantly less time, and will cost less $$ (I am unaware of any funded, non-accredited doctoral programs?).

 

[irish80122]

Hello all. This is a sad day indeed, although I knew what I was getting myself into, I was quite sure I would get an interview at the least.

I applied to 19 APA-Accredited clinical psychology Ph.D. programs. I did not limit myself geographically. I didn't spread myself too thin either. I had researched all of the professors I applied to very extensively (reached out to them as well in advance) and I believed to be a good fit for the programs.

I enjoy research very much. My university is very well known on the west coast and it has been engrained in me that the APA route is the only way. I am at a crossroads now. I am financially stable, but that doesn't mean I want to go to a "diploma mill", especially since I worked so hard during my undergraduate career to gather research experience and familiarize myself with the graduate student life. I would like a "respected" degree. I do not plan to work in the government sector, however, with the current job market I don't want to shoot myself in the foot either.

What my professors are suggesting:
-"I wouldn't blame you if you went the depth psychology route/ non-APA"
-Don't apply this cycle again (Fall), instead do 1.5 years of more research, authorship and demonstrate more ability to carry out responsibility
-Get higher GPA then apply in 2019 for 2020 admittance

What my friends (some of whom have gone the depth psychology route, some who know people who have non-APA accredited degrees who are doing well)
-Go the depth psychology route if you have the money
-You might continue doing this for 1.5 years and then STILL not get in

I am pretty sure I will be getting lots of replies from people discouraging me from going the non-APA route. But since there are no guarantees that I would get in, even with a strong application, I am entertaining other ideas and weighing out my options.

Career goal: Private practice
I would like to practice in California in terms of licensure

When I applied back in November:
GPA: 3.89
Research Experience: 2.5 years, worked in three labs simultaneously, lead author on two undergraduate research projects, name on two other UROPS, two conference presentations at the yearly undergraduate research symposium of the university
Received four separate research grants totaling $2500
GRE: V150 Q 146 W 5- I took it twice and did as best as I could, I am not a good test taker
Very good letters of rec who personally know many of the professors I applied to
Very, very good statements of purpose. I had a dozen people look over them.

This year I:
-Will have hopefully published my project
-Will have an APS poster presentation at the SF conference this year
-Am now a study coordinator
-Will be authoring with my professor on previous findings from former students

One of the non-APA schools I am currently looking at is only WASC accredited for the record.

I am dead set on Ph.D. in clinical psychology. MAP, MFT, MSW etc. are not going to be a part of my path.

I would appreciate any insight from the APA and non-APA oriented folks
Thank you

As DCT of a recently-accredited program, I thought I may be a good person to reply.

First, I won't dwell on it, but given what you want to do I would strongly urge you to consider getting a LPC, MSW, etc. I know you don't want to do it, but it sounds like a good fit.

There are new PhD programs out there that are working toward accreditation but are not yet eligible because they are too new. We were in that position for several years. There is risk there, no doubt, but if you find a strong program at a good university where you and your mentors are confident it will be accredited once they are eligible, it very well may be worth your time. We got accredited before any of our students graduated, so it ended up being a good risk for them. Additionally, with the new APA accreditation rules programs can get accredited earlier, so if there are issues that will block accreditation students should know earlier and be able to react.

Please do think about the master's route, though. Also, if I had to guess, I think your GRE score is getting you cut at a lot of programs.

 

[PsychPsyance]

That sounds brutal. I wonder about a few things. First, are you open about your desire to go into clinical practice? if so, that may turn off a majority of faculty, at PhD programs, from the get go. I know people appreciate honesty, but (ime at 3 different clinical PhD programs) faculty don't like investing 5-7 years in someone that they will never have any research interactions with after grad school. Taking on a student is a large investment, so we like to groom future colleagues. There are certainly people that will tell you differently... but I don't know any of them. The people who I know that do say they don't care if you plan to go into a clinical career always take students that plan to go the academic route (so what they are saying isn't matching what they are doing).

Second, that GRE is not ideal. You can overcome it, but usually that means extensive research experience, and the desire to go on to research/academic career (again, this is just my experience/opinion). I'm not saying to lie about your plans, but you might want to at least be open to the notion of an academic/research career in your application materials. From my perspective (granted, I'm just one faculty member - but, one at an APA-PhD program), you would be a solid candidate if you were a good match and said you wanted to go on to a research career. Indeed, I'd take a person with your credentials that wanted an academic path over a person with perfect GRE/GPA/letters/etc but said they wanted to go into clinical practice.

Finally, knowing the battle that people face from non-APA programs, I would push you toward a costly APA PsyD before I'd recommend a non-APA program.

 

[mypointlesspov]

I think your GRE scores are the issue here. Your stats are impressive overall, but I don't think your scores meet the cutoff for consideration for many programs.

 

[Fali1991]

I’m not sure what is meant by depth psychology? And by APA/non-APA, you’re talking about accreditation?

APA-accreditation is the minimum standard of doctoral training in the field of professional psychology. By attending a non-accredited doctoral program, you would be ineligible to apply for an internship through APPIC, which would preclude you from pursuing an APA-accredited internship (i.e., I believe all APA-accredited internships are also APPIC accredited?). Even if allowed to apply for non-APPIC but yes-APA accredited internships, many (most?) APA-accredited internships require attendance at an APA-accredited doctoral program. Failure to obtain both an APA-accredited doctoral degree and internship would subsequently preclude you from obtaining licensure in many states and would close many doors to you professionally. Additionally, California already has an oversaturated psychology market as is, so carving out a niche in that market with suboptimal training would be, at the very least, an uphill battle (if not a losing one).

If your end goal is to work as a clinician or practitioner in private practice, then it would likely be in your best interest to pursue an MSW or related degree (MSW is likely the most versatile/transportable). An MSW from any state school will be more respected than a PhD/PsyD in clinical psychology from a non-APA accredited institution (APA accreditation is the lower bound of training standards.. definitely not the upper bound), will take significantly less time, and will cost less $$ (I am unaware of any funded, non-accredited doctoral programs?).

Yes, I am referring to accreditation status when I mention APA. In terms of depth psychology, there are some in central and NorCal that are WASC accredited and won't have any way to offer APA internships but many still receive licensure in the state of California going on to practice privately... or so it seems.

 

[Fali1991]

That sounds brutal. I wonder about a few things. First, are you open about your desire to go into clinical practice? if so, that may turn off a majority of faculty, at PhD programs, from the get go. I know people appreciate honesty, but (ime at 3 different clinical PhD programs) faculty don't like investing 5-7 years in someone that they will never have any research interactions with after grad school. Taking on a student is a large investment, so we like to groom future colleagues. There are certainly people that will tell you differently... but I don't know any of them. The people who I know that do say they don't care if you plan to go into a clinical career always take students that plan to go the academic route (so what they are saying isn't matching what they are doing).

Second, that GRE is not ideal. You can overcome it, but usually that means extensive research experience, and the desire to go on to research/academic career (again, this is just my experience/opinion). I'm not saying to lie about your plans, but you might want to at least be open to the notion of an academic/research career in your application materials. From my perspective (granted, I'm just one faculty member - but, one at an APA-PhD program), you would be a solid candidate if you were a good match and said you wanted to go on to a research career. Indeed, I'd take a person with your credentials that wanted an academic path over a person with perfect GRE/GPA/letters/etc but said they wanted to go into clinical practice.

Finally, knowing the battle that people face from non-APA programs, I would push you toward a costly APA PsyD before I'd recommend a non-APA program.

Thank you, it has been really brutal. The cost and time to apply to all of these programs... It's been bad, especially knowing that I still might not eventually get in if I continue down this path...

I was very very careful NOT to mention any desire at all to pursue clinical practice in the future. It was all research based.

 

[SouthpawPsych]

It’s always frustrating to have unfortunate news after such a long and hard process! To echo what others have said, it really sounds like the GRE scores are what kept the doors opening for accredited programs. However, your GPA, research, and grant writing experience are all very impressive.

By any chance did any of these programs offer you a spot in their masters program? It seems like a lot of R1 programs have students who come in with a master’s degree. Depending on the program, you may be able to waive some courses towards your PhD in the process and still have a similar timeline to internship/graduation...

 

[psych.meout]

What my professors are suggesting:
-"I wouldn't blame you if you went the depth psychology route/ non-APA"

Don't do this, it's a really bad idea. APA accreditation is a relatively low bar (just look at some of the crappy programs that still get accredited), so it's a bad sign if a program can't even get that. Think about it like this, would you want to receive medical care from a physician that couldn't be bothered to get the proper training? Why should this be acceptable for mental health?

Don't apply this cycle again (Fall), instead do 1.5 years of more research, authorship and demonstrate more ability to carry out responsibility

This is a good idea.

-Get higher GPA then apply in 2019 for 2020 admittance

Your GPA is good and definitely not holding you back.

What my friends (some of whom have gone the depth psychology route, some who know people who have non-APA accredited degrees who are doing well)
-Go the depth psychology route if you have the money

Again, don't do this, it's a really bad idea.

-You might continue doing this for 1.5 years and then STILL not get in

This is true, but that's the risk you take with choosing clinical psych doctoral programs. They are very selective and the vast, vast majority never get admitted anywhere.

I am pretty sure I will be getting lots of replies from people discouraging me from going the non-APA route. But since there are no guarantees that I would get in, even with a strong application, I am entertaining other ideas and weighing out my options.

Career goal: Private practice
I would like to practice in California in terms of licensure

...

I am dead set on Ph.D. in clinical psychology. MAP, MFT, MSW etc. are not going to be a part of my path.

The problem is that you're considering options that are very bad ideas (e.g., non-APA programs) and not willing to consider the good ideas that would help you achieve your goals. You can very easily provide therapy in private practice with master's-level degrees like MFT, LPC, and LCPC.

Research Experience: 2.5 years, worked in three labs simultaneously, lead author on two undergraduate research projects, name on two other UROPS, two conference presentations at the yearly undergraduate research symposium of the university
Received four separate research grants totaling $2500

What did you actually do in these labs? Did you just do grunt work (e.g., data entry and cleaning) or did you substantively contribute to their design, execution, and dissemination (i.e., would you have been a co-author if it had been published)? The former is helpful, but not nearly as much as the latter.

GRE: V150 Q 146 W 5- I took it twice and did as best as I could, I am not a good test taker

This is probably what is holding you back more than anything. Your scores are really just not good enough. All of your other stats seem at least somewhat competitive, but your GRE scores aren't cutting it. The upside is that it is the cheapest and easiest area to substantially improve and in the shortest amount of time.

This year I:
-Will have hopefully published my project
-Will have an APS poster presentation at the SF conference this year
-Am now a study coordinator
-Will be authoring with my professor on previous findings from former students

These are all very good things.

 

[Fali1991]

Don't do this, it's a really bad idea. APA accreditation is a relatively low bar (just look at some of the crappy programs that still get accredited), so it's a bad sign if a program can't even get that. Think about it like this, would you want to receive medical care from a physician that couldn't be bothered to get the proper training? Why should this be acceptable for mental health?



This is a good idea.



Your GPA is good and definitely not holding you back.



Again, don't do this, it's a really bad idea.



This is true, but that's the risk you take with choosing clinical psych doctoral programs. They are very selective and the vast, vast majority never get admitted anywhere.



The problem is that you're considering options that are very bad ideas (e.g., non-APA programs) and not willing to consider the good ideas that would help you achieve your goals. You can very easily provide therapy in private practice with master's-level degrees like MFT, LPC, and LCPC.



What did you actually do in these labs? Did you just do grunt work (e.g., data entry and cleaning) or did you substantively contribute to their design, execution, and dissemination (i.e., would you have been a co-author if it had been published)? The former is helpful, but not nearly as much as the latter.



This is probably what is holding you back more than anything. Your scores are really just not good enough. All of your other stats seem at least somewhat competitive, but your GRE scores aren't cutting it. The upside is that it is the cheapest and easiest area to substantially improve and in the shortest amount of time.



These are all very good things.

I am leaning more towards the 1.5 more research experience and upping my GRE score at this point.

Would obtaining a MA in psych serve me well during this time and increase my chances?

It's the uncertainty of not getting in anywhere again that is killing me...

 

[psych.meout]

I am leaning more towards the 1.5 more research experience and upping my GRE score at this point.

Would obtaining a MA in psych serve me well during this time and increase my chances?

It's the uncertainty of not getting in anywhere again that is killing me...

Your GPA is good, so I'd recommend improving your GRE scores and getting more research experience, paid if possible.

 

[wtfook]

I am leaning more towards the 1.5 more research experience and upping my GRE score at this point.

Would obtaining a MA in psych serve me well during this time and increase my chances?

It's the uncertainty of not getting in anywhere again that is killing me...

Uncertainty is definitely frustrating and anxiety provoking. However, it sounds like you are a senior in undergrad, which means you are what? 21? 22? 1.5-2 years of additional research before applying again is really a drop in the bucket with regard to the number of years left you will have in your academic and professional trajectory. Rushing now just so you can get in ANYWHERE will only screw you in the long run. It might seem worth it because, hey, you've saved 2 years time, but when you graduate you will be facing a huge number of jobs you are not eligible for and a private practice business that is already hard to maintain without adding uncompetitive credentials to that. In comparison, taking 2 years off will provide you with a more developed and mature idea of what you want from a program, more research experience to beef up your resume, more time to study for the GRE, AND a break from school, which will renew you and reinvigorate you for 6 more years of a doctoral program.

Taking that time should NEVER be looked at as "wasting time" or "taking a risk." Considering the alternative paths you're thinking of, I see only benefits to going the RA route for another couple years. Even if you didn't get into any programs 2 years from now and choose to do the non-APA route anyway, you will still have gained more life experience and become more prepared for a doctoral program. If you decide to go MA afterwards, you will not have really delayed much time at all. However, improving your chances for APA and then potentially getting into an APA 2 years from now will yield much greater rewards despite the wait time compared to rushing into a non-APA program now.

 

[PsychPhDone]

Like others, I'd recommend a masters-level degree if private practice is your main goal. If you are dead set on a PhD, go get a full time RA job and re-study for the GRE while you are there.

 

[Fali1991]

Thank you all for the replies. I will most likely take the GRE again and get more research experience.

Is it frowned upon to be re-applying to the same programs?

 

[wtfook]

Thank you all for the replies. I will most likely take the GRE again and get more research experience.

Is it frowned upon to be re-applying to the same programs?

No definitely not.

 

[SouthpawPsych]

Thank you all for the replies. I will most likely take the GRE again and get more research experience.

Is it frowned upon to be re-applying to the same programs?

I reapplied to many of the same programs and received an offer from one of my top choices. Did not receive an interview the first time around.

 

[singasongofjoy]

Uncertainty is definitely frustrating and anxiety provoking. However, it sounds like you are a senior in undergrad, which means you are what? 21? 22? 1.5-2 years of additional research before applying again is really a drop in the bucket with regard to the number of years left you will have in your academic and professional trajectory. Rushing now just so you can get in ANYWHERE will only screw you in the long run. It might seem worth it because, hey, you've saved 2 years time, but when you graduate you will be facing a huge number of jobs you are not eligible for and a private practice business that is already hard to maintain without adding uncompetitive credentials to that. In comparison, taking 2 years off will provide you with a more developed and mature idea of what you want from a program, more research experience to beef up your resume, more time to study for the GRE, AND a break from school, which will renew you and reinvigorate you for 6 more years of a doctoral program.

Taking that time should NEVER be looked at as "wasting time" or "taking a risk." Considering the alternative paths you're thinking of, I see only benefits to going the RA route for another couple years. Even if you didn't get into any programs 2 years from now and choose to do the non-APA route anyway, you will still have gained more life experience and become more prepared for a doctoral program. If you decide to go MA afterwards, you will not have really delayed much time at all. However, improving your chances for APA and then potentially getting into an APA 2 years from now will yield much greater rewards despite the wait time compared to rushing into a non-APA program now.

kind of along those lines, I think that it's a good idea for almost everyone to take time between undergrad and grad school anyway. Life experience, yada yada... and to give your brain a break and a chance to think about different things and see the big picture of life a bit better. I generally found in my program those who had taken some time between were, on average, way less stressed about practically everything related to school. I think time in the working world (even if that's as an RA ... just not being in school) helps put all the various aspects of life into a healthier and less-myopic perspective.