Didn't realize how dire the situation was until today. Needing Advice.

[deleted990017]

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Hi all,
For context: I'm a disadvantaged first generation URM. My mom is a housekeeper and my dad is a truck driver; both have only a 7th grade education. I went to an underfunded NYC public high school where only 14% of graduating seniors went to college, but managed to make the most of it and got into a top 10 university.

I graduated last year with a degree in English and Global Health Studies. I ended with a 3.1cGPA. I struggled through undergrad because of severe depression/anxiety (I had a lot of unfortunate life circumstances growing up and it's likely highly genetic for me) and quit premed by my junior year. I finally sought help for my mental health problems my senior year (therapy for 2+ years and meds for 1 year). I now work as a full time clinical research coordinator in psychiatry at my undergrad's hospital where I am the lead on two NIH funded U54 grants and 1 R01 grant. I am first author on a research pub and 2nd/3rd authors on a few others. I volunteer as a Spanish medical interpreter at a free clinic and am currently completing a DIY postbacc at my undergrad institution (luckily as a full time employee I get tuition reduced).

I calculated my cGPA and sGPA using the AMCAS calculator today. Here are the dismal stats:
cGPA (by AMCAS standards): 3.08
there's some GPA that is categorized as "other" and that is: 3.49
sGPA: 1.98 ( this does not include courses I have not yet taken: 3 quarters of organic, 4 quarters of bio, and 1 quarter of physics)

I have 2 F's in general chemistry, 2 D's in physics, and 1 C- in physics. I have yet to take organic chemistry, biochemistry, genetics, cell bio, or physiology and am going to do so from fall 2019-spring 2021. I retook gen chem 2 and went from a C- to a B. I'm currently finishing the last quarter of gen chem and anticipate a B+/A- in the course (in undergrad I scored an F).

I take roughly 2 courses/quarter right now and work full-time since that's how I can afford my DIY postbacc. Right now I don't take summer courses; I'm not sure whether I should try and take more courses during the summer (although I'd have to take them elsewhere my school only does summer intensives and I have to work full-time.)

Should I just keep doing what I'm doing and hope for the best and then try and crush the MCAT? My goal is to apply to medical school June 2021. Or would it be in my best interest to complete my coursework and then try and do an SMP? Or should I just take upper division courses after completing basic science and then apply in June 2022 (this may be more economically feasible for me as I could stay at my job full-time).

Sorry for all the text. Any advice is greatly appreciated. As I said above I'm a first gen. student and have zero clue what I'm doing.

 

[curbsideconsult]

It sounds like continuing DIY with upper level courses might be the best option for you considering your financial circumstances. I say give yourself a break over the summer. As for the MCAT, most students take about 6-8 weeks (some even 12) of full time 30-40 hour/week studying to take that exam. Clearly you'll be studying for the exam while working. Save up your vacation time so that when it comes time to taking the MCAT, you can take at least 2-3 weeks off prior to the exam to give yourself dedicated time to study.

With your situation, you really can't settle for less than an A-. The difference between a B+ and A- is 0.4 GPA points and that adds up fast.

 

[Moko]

Either continuing with upper division courses or a SMP are reasonable options. You're right that your sGPA is the biggest weakness in your application. The DIY option will likely take longer as the same number of credits will be spread out over more years. Thankfully, your GPA will be evaluated in the context of your GPA trend, so the more years of A's the better. Best of luck to you.

 

[rdyotz]

Some schools will have a cutoff of 3.0 for sGPA and auto-screen applicants. Therefore, it is likely you will have to continue with even more science classes after doing the basic pre-med ones (microbiology, immunology, physical chemistry, etc.). You will definitely need to get straight As in order to get above that 3.0. It is going to be a long and hard path to get there, but it is doable. Your retakes should be showing a much larger improvement (C- to B is not a big enough change), If you have seen the material before, you should be getting A- at the lowest. It sounds like you are trying to do too much. Take only 1 course a quarter while working, and cut back on hours if needed - it doesn't matter how long it takes you to get there (2023 cycle sounds like a better option for you). Don't waste time thinking about your MCAT until your sGPA is nearing 3.0.

 

[deleted990017]

Thank you for your responses. I'm glad I used the AMCAS calculator early to evaluate my postbacc plans. I came up with my plan with the assumption that because I hadn't taken most of my prerequisites in undergrad that my sGPA would be okay. I see now I'll need to do one full year of upper division courses in order to make myself more competitive. If I can keep doing my course work 2 classes/quarter I'll try to keep it up, but I know if I can't handle that I'll need to drop down to 1 course/quarter. It will definitely be a long journey, but that's the sacrifice, right?

I did have one other question and I'm getting ahead of myself here, but it's been on my mind for a while. This may be difficult to answer since we can't really know what AdComs think, but is it unwise to disclose depression/anxiety as the primary reason for low undergrad grades? I know that may sound like an excuse, but I think getting treated for my mental illness put me on the right track and I've been able to move on and better myself as a person and as a student. Would this need to be explained or should it not even be brought to their attention?

 

[theKingLT]

Some schools will have a cutoff of 3.0 for sGPA and auto-screen applicants. Therefore, it is likely you will have to continue with even more science classes after doing the basic pre-med ones (microbiology, immunology, physical chemistry, etc.). You will definitely need to get straight As in order to get above that 3.0. It is going to be a long and hard path to get there, but it is doable. Your retakes should be showing a much larger improvement (C- to B is not a big enough change), If you have seen the material before, you should be getting A- at the lowest. It sounds like you are trying to do too much. Take only 1 course a quarter while working, and cut back on hours if needed - it doesn't matter how long it takes you to get there (2023 cycle sounds like a better option for you). Don't waste time thinking about your MCAT until your sGPA is nearing 3.0.

I agree with all this except for taking pchem. If OP can't get an A in gen chem nor physics, pchem should be avoided at all costs.

Thank you for your responses. I'm glad I used the AMCAS calculator early to evaluate my postbacc plans. I came up with my plan with the assumption that because I hadn't taken most of my prerequisites in undergrad that my sGPA would be okay. I see now I'll need to do one full year of upper division courses in order to make myself more competitive. If I can keep doing my course work 2 classes/quarter I'll try to keep it up, but I know if I can't handle that I'll need to drop down to 1 course/quarter. It will definitely be a long journey, but that's the sacrifice, right?

I did have one other question and I'm getting ahead of myself here, but it's been on my mind for a while. This may be difficult to answer since we can't really know what AdComs think, but is it unwise to disclose depression/anxiety as the primary reason for low undergrad grades? I know that may sound like an excuse, but I think getting treated for my mental illness put me on the right track and I've been able to move on and better myself as a person and as a student. Would this need to be explained or should it not even be brought to their attention?

Mentioning mental health challenges is fine as long as it is well in the past, you show you are completely recovered after treatment, and then have multiple years of good grades after that. Sounds like you're on the right track for that, just make sure to get mostly A's, very few B's, and nothing lower from here on out. Also, when you eventually get to applying, make sure you address the mental health issues and low grades in terms of what you learned. Framing it simply as that's the reason you did poorly does come off sounding like an excuse no matter how valid. Adcoms want to see you overcame the challenges and learned from them. Best of luck

 

[deleted990017]

I agree with all this except for taking pchem. If OP can't get an A in gen chem nor physics, pchem should be avoided at all costs.Mentioning mental health challenges is fine as long as it is well in the past, you show you are completely recovered after treatment, and then have multiple years of good grades after that. Sounds like you're on the right track for that, just make sure to get mostly A's, very few B's, and nothing lower from here on out. Also, when you eventually get to applying, make sure you address the mental health issues and low grades in terms of what you learned. Framing it simply as that's the reason you did poorly does come off sounding like an excuse no matter how valid. Adcoms want to see you overcame the challenges and learned from them. Best of luck

Ha yeah pchem will be avoided. I'll take upper division biology classes. I'll be sure to frame my past issues in a positive way. Thank you for your help, it's greatly appreciated!

 

[Goro]

Hi all,
For context: I'm a disadvantaged first generation URM. My mom is a housekeeper and my dad is a truck driver; both have only a 7th grade education. I went to an underfunded NYC public high school where only 14% of graduating seniors went to college, but managed to make the most of it and got into a top 10 university.

I graduated last year with a degree in English and Global Health Studies. I ended with a 3.1cGPA. I struggled through undergrad because of severe depression/anxiety (I had a lot of unfortunate life circumstances growing up and it's likely highly genetic for me) and quit premed by my junior year. I finally sought help for my mental health problems my senior year (therapy for 2+ years and meds for 1 year). I now work as a full time clinical research coordinator in psychiatry at my undergrad's hospital where I am the lead on two NIH funded U54 grants and 1 R01 grant. I am first author on a research pub and 2nd/3rd authors on a few others. I volunteer as a Spanish medical interpreter at a free clinic and am currently completing a DIY postbacc at my undergrad institution (luckily as a full time employee I get tuition reduced).

I calculated my cGPA and sGPA using the AMCAS calculator today. Here are the dismal stats:
cGPA (by AMCAS standards): 2.96
there's some GPA that is categorized as "other" and that is: 3.49
sGPA: 1.68

I have 2 F's in general chemistry, 2 D's in physics, and 1 C- in physics. I have yet to take organic chemistry, biochemistry, genetics, cell bio, or physiology and am going to do so from fall 2019-spring 2021. I retook gen chem 2 and went from a C- to a B. I'm currently finishing the last quarter of gen chem and anticipate a B+/A- in the course (in undergrad I scored an F).

My concern is even if I get all A's in my premed courses over the next 2 years the highest my cGPA can get up to is 3.5 and my sGPA would only go up to a 2.6 and that's if I get all A's.
I take roughly 2 courses/quarter right now and work full-time since that's how I can afford my DIY postbacc. Right now I don't take summer courses; I'm not sure whether I should try and take more courses during the summer (although I'd have to take them elsewhere my school only does summer intensives and I have to work full-time.)

Should I just keep doing what I'm doing and hope for the best and then try and crush the MCAT? My goal is to apply to medical school June 2021. Or would it be in my best interest to complete my coursework and then try and do an SMP? Or should I just take upper division courses after completing basic science and then apply in June 2022 (this may be more economically feasible for me as I could stay at my job full-time).

Sorry for all the text. Any advice is greatly appreciated. As I said above I'm a first gen. student and have zero clue what I'm doing.

It's not about raising the GPAs anymore, but rather, that the you of now is not the you of then.
Read this, and also realize that you're in this for the long haul.

• Goro's advice for pre-meds who need reinvention

 

[futuremdforme]

I wouldn't mention depression specifically because it risks a red flag. Honestly your story of your parents' education level and high school are pretty compelling. If you do well, I don't think anyone will question those grades enough that you would need to explain your mental health challenges.

 

[deleted990017]

It's not about raising the GPAs anymore, but rather, that the you of now is not the you of then.
Read this, and also realize that you're in this for the long haul.

• Goro's advice for pre-meds who need reinvention

Oh wow this is an awesome resource thank you! I also realized I calculated my gpa incorrectly the corrected values are ( I added in W grades that shouldn't have been counted):

cGPA (by AMCAS standards): 3.085
there's some GPA that is categorized as "other" and that is: 3.49
sGPA: 1.94

 

[deleted990017]

I wouldn't mention depression specifically because it risks a red flag. Honestly your story of your parents' education level and high school are pretty compelling. If you do well, I don't think anyone will question those grades enough that you would need to explain your mental health challenges.

Yeah this is my biggest concern that I'll be screened out (lol besides being screened out by my GPA) because I know medical schools struggle with high rates of students with depression/anxiety/suicide, but I'm also compelled to write about these things because I have a strong interest in psychiatry (hence my full-time job) and especially psychiatric help for minorities/underserved.

 

[Goro]

Yeah this is my biggest concern that I'll be screened out (lol besides being screened out by my GPA) because I know medical schools struggle with high rates of students with depression/anxiety/suicide, but I'm also compelled to write about these things because I have a strong interest in psychiatry (hence my full-time job) and especially psychiatric help for minorities/underserved.

That's not good enough right now.
You need to show that you can handle med school, noth both mentally and academically.

No med school is doing you any flavors by admitting you when you are at risk of failing out.

 

[deleted990017]

That's not good enough right now.
You need to show that you can handle med school, noth both mentally and academically.

No med school is doing you any flavors by admitting you when you are at risk of failing out.

I don't disagree. I know it'll take at least 3 years to get my GPA up and I'll need a great MCAT score to get into medical school. My concerns were with explaining ug grades and also highlighting my motivations for going to medical school without turning into a huge red flag because of mental illness diagnosis (not that I'm ashamed of it because I'm not; it's part of who I am).

 

[Naruhodo]

I agree that your story is already very compelling. I think, especially with some work in the field that you can absolutely write about caring about the mental health of the undeserved. I think plenty of ad coms would be able to read between the lines without you making yourself feel too vulnerable if it comes up in interviews.

Remember that anything that you write in your primaries or secondaries is fair game for questions during interviews. From personal experience, when I was a re-applicant,one of the schools I was applying to had a question about why you were a re-applicant and what had changed. So I wrote about when I was fresh out of college and caring for a dying parent. I got an interview at this particular school, and one of my interveiwers opened our conversation saying he was sorry for my loss and telling me about his own experience with a colleague who died of the same terrible illness. Nothing he said was unkind, but I was unprepared to have that conversation with a stranger and immediately started tearing up. I went from being someone normally confident about the things I have accomplished, to feeling like that vulnerable/ depressed person I'd been during that stage of my life.

Then came the question that did feel inappropriate (to me at least): The beloved colleague used to lecture to the entire med school class about his experience with this particular disease. Students had always loved that lecture, but unfortunately the colleague had recently died from his illness. Would I be comfortable speaking publicly about my first-hand experience of this disease?

Pretty sure I just said no. I don't remember too much else from that interview, even though I know we talked longer. I was ultimately waitlisted at that school. In a subsequent med school interview, where I hadn't written about this experience in my secondary I still brought it up, but after I'd already been chatting with the interviewers for a while and felt comfortable going into territory that was more personal. In those cases, I felt like I raised it on my terms. So don't feel like your past mental health challenges have to remain some deep, dark secret, but remember that it's your story to tell and you get to chose when, where, and to whom you share it.

 

[Goro]

I don't disagree. I know it'll take at least 3 years to get my GPA up and I'll need a great MCAT score to get into medical school. My concerns were with explaining ug grades and also highlighting my motivations for going to medical school without turning into a huge red flag because of mental illness diagnosis (not that I'm ashamed of it because I'm not; it's part of who I am).

A long stretch of good academics will allay Adcom's concerns.

 

[futuremdforme]

Yeah this is my biggest concern that I'll be screened out (lol besides being screened out by my GPA) because I know medical schools struggle with high rates of students with depression/anxiety/suicide, but I'm also compelled to write about these things because I have a strong interest in psychiatry (hence my full-time job) and especially psychiatric help for minorities/underserved.

If you want to reduce the stigma, you need to get in first. And unfortunately, if you write about it in your essays, you are reducing your chances of getting in IMO.

 

[Moko]

When I applied to med school, one of my mentors (who unfortunately passed away recently) had said that mentioning mental health was usually the death knell to an application. Fast forward ten years, there is still some truth to this statement, though things have slowly been changing. One of the deans at my school is open about their struggle with depression, as are myself and many of my colleagues. I can only assume that the same thing is happening at other schools too. We've had applications openly touch upon this subject that were compelling and well-received by reviewers. Applications that mention mental health are still scrutinized more carefully though and I do feel that they have a higher "burden-of-proof" to show that they can handle the rigors of medical school (offset partially of course by the compelling narrative that such applications may bring).

So while I do agree with those who advise appropriate caution, just know that times are changing, and that mental health is no longer as taboo as it was. Use appropriate judgment and paint it in a positive light, and it may become an asset to your application.

Regardless, as you've stated, you first need multiple years of excellent GPA with an appropriate course load to show schools that you can handle this. When it comes time to apply, feel free to reach out to me to read the parts where you mention your own struggles, and I can give you my thoughts. Best of luck

 

[Dave1980]

One of the deans at my school is open about their struggle with depression, as are myself and many of my colleagues.

I do agree that the stigma around mental health is much less than previously however an uber successful person who has overcome their mental health issues discussing it is worlds away from a young adult who is applying to med school. The young person hasn't been through the ringer of med school and residency and come out on the other side intact.

 

[Moko]

I do agree that the stigma around mental health is much less than previously however an uber successful person who has overcome their mental health issues discussing it is worlds away from a young adult who is applying to med school. The young person hasn't been through the ringer of med school and residency and come out on the other side intact.

Absolutely agree. This is still a very touchy subject that, if brought up on the application, needs to be done very tactfully. Some applicants end up having stronger applications because of it, but I've also seen many end up worse off. If this is brought up in the application, it will almost definitely be asked about during the interview.

 

[Goro]

When I applied to med school, one of my mentors (who unfortunately passed away recently) had said that mentioning mental health was usually the death knell to an application. Fast forward ten years, there is still some truth to this statement, though things have slowly been changing. One of the deans at my school is open about their struggle with depression, as are myself and many of my colleagues. I can only assume that the same thing is happening at other schools too. We've had applications openly touch upon this subject that were compelling and well-received by reviewers. Applications that mention mental health are still scrutinized more carefully though and I do feel that they have a higher "burden-of-proof" to show that they can handle the rigors of medical school (offset partially of course by the compelling narrative that such applications may bring).

So while I do agree with those who advise appropriate caution, just know that times are changing, and that mental health is no longer as taboo as it was. Use appropriate judgment and paint it in a positive light, and it may become an asset to your application.

Regardless, as you've stated, you first need multiple years of excellent GPA with an appropriate course load to show schools that you can handle this. When it comes time to apply, feel free to reach out to me to read the parts where you mention your own struggles, and I can give you my thoughts. Best of luck

I do agree that the stigma around mental health is much less than previously however an uber successful person who has overcome their mental health issues discussing it is worlds away from a young adult who is applying to med school. The young person hasn't been through the ringer of med school and residency and come out on the other side intact.

Absolutely agree. This is still a very touchy subject that, if brought up on the application, needs to be done very tactfully. Some applicants end up having stronger applications because of it, but I've also seen many end up worse off. If this is brought up in the application, it will almost definitely be asked about during the interview.

I'd like to follow up these wise posts with the observation that the reason we adcoms are so guarded about applicants who mention mental health issues is that medical school is a furnace, and I've seen it break even healthy students. The #1 reason my school loses students to withdrawal, dismissal or LOA is to unresolved mental health issues.

I've struggled with depression myself, so I am sympathetic. I'm more gun shy of the more severe disorders.

 

[deleted972488]

I agree with the general consensus. The problem with bringing up a mental illness on an application isn't necessarily just "stigma" per se. If you haven't proven that you're able to manage your illness, why would a medical school want to admit you? You need to demonstrate that you can succeed despite the illness, not use it as an excuse for why you haven't succeeded. It has to be something that you've overcome and moved past, not something that is going to hold you back.

I'm not saying that you haven't overcome it. Judging by your success in research, it sounds like you have. You'll just need to definitively prove that you have by doing well in coursework, too.

 

[deleted990017]

Thank you all for your thoughtful responses. It's good to have different viewpoints on the matter. I'll be sure when it comes time to apply that I write my personal statement tactfully.

One last question: do medical schools take into consideration the rigor of your academic program? I feel if I took the rest of my science courses at a less rigorous 4 year or at a CC I would be making A's much easier. Several of my friends who are now in medical school and come from similar backgrounds as I do took that route and said the exams/coursework were significantly easier (one person failed orgo at our school but took it at a different school and made A's). A significant chunk of my postbacc classmates have dropped out because they realized it's much more difficult to earn A's in our program than at other schools in the area.

I don't want to screw myself over by taking these courses at my institution if the better route would be elsewhere. What are your thoughts on this? I feel I can handle the rigors of my classes and I'm busting my butt at my classes, but I'm not sure I'll be able to get all A's from here on out (especially in organic chem, the prof is a notorious hard ass). The main reasons I'm in my current program are the employee tuition reduction and the courses are offered in the evenings (most 4 year schools only do day classes).

Thanks again for the wise words!

 

[Moko]

One last question: do medical schools take into consideration the rigor of your academic program? I feel if I took the rest of my science courses at a less rigorous 4 year or at a CC I would be making A's much easier. Several of my friends who are now in medical school and come from similar backgrounds as I do took that route and said the exams/coursework were significantly easier (one person failed orgo at our school but took it at a different school and made A's).

The academic rigor of an applicant's home institution does matter to a degree. If an applicant does well at a school known for grade deflation, then that reflects more positively on them. HOWEVER, the same does not apply to those with poor academic performances -- I am not going to assume that their GPA would otherwise have been 0.X points higher had they been at another college. I would be curious to hear if other programs do adjust for home institutions.

In general: Good grades in a rigorous program > good grades in a less rigorous program >> mediocre grades in a rigorous program >/= mediocre grades in a less rigorous program.

Personally, I become cautious when I see someone do mediocre at one place, and then suddenly start getting perfect scores at another place -- was it because the applicant has suddenly become a better student (it's possible) or is it because the second program just has more grade inflation / less competition? Finances often play a major role in these decisions, but as a reviewer, it's difficult to discern which folks actually did it for the finances vs purely for the grades to 'hack' the GPA (in reality, it's probably a combination of both). What reassures me is when an applicant is able to get a year of good grades at the first program before changing to another program -- that allows for an apples to apples comparison. BUT this is by no means a recommendation to stay at your current program for another year, especially if you do not think that you will succeed there academically! Hope this helps.