difference between a DO and a MD

[Gut Shot]

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Well, sometimes I think brevity is better. I have a suspicion that few, if any, read responses longer than 2 lines.

You're right. Brevity is highly preferable to something substantial yet concise. You've really done a lot to change my mind about things. Yay.

 

[Jack Daniel]

You're right. Brevity is highly preferable to something substantial yet concise. You've really done a lot to change my mind about things. Yay.

I'm not sure I wish to change your mind. In fact, if you're trying to make the point that, given Bruce's presumed abilities, his potential may be limited by attending a new, unproven school that isn't noted for producing surgeons, thus depriving the world of a talent yet seen--you may be right.

I just didn't like your tone, thus the ambiguous thumbs down. It's absurd to dis a school that has a focus on primary care and a mission to train physicians to care for the underserved--pissant school or not.

 

[Gut Shot]

It's absurd to dis a school that has a focus on primary care and a mission to train physicians to care for the underserved--pissant school or not.

By that logic it would be absurd to dis Enron as it was a major contributor to arts and education in the Houston area. I don't dis VCOM's presumed mission, I do dis it's rather flimsy existence in the anal fistula of SW Virginia.

 

[Jack Daniel]

By that logic it would be absurd to dis Enron as it was a major contributor to arts and education in the Houston area. I don't dis VCOM's presumed mission, I do dis it's rather flimsy existence in the anal fistula of SW Virginia.

OK-I get that you don't care for VCOM. However, even the anal fistula of SW Virginia needs physicians. I take it you won't be filling that gap, but others may want to. If super doc (Bruce) sees himself in that role, more power to him.

 

[winthug]

You are rightly proud of having raised your score from a 7 to a 9 in VR. Well, a couple years ago I had two kids who both scored 14 on VR....cold, on their diagnostics, before studying one single day. You gonna sit there and tell me that those kids worked harder than you did for your 9? 😎

Not that I really care that much, but I'm amazed that you actually took the time to look at my previous posts. You're not the only who has done that, but it still kinda freaks me out. Looking up someone's mdapplicant stuff is one thing, but ....

And as for the 14s, there will of course be deviations i.e. super smart people. I'm sure most people didn't break 25s on their first diagnostic. I hate to say this because I sound like a typical adcom person, but there is some correlation with MCAT score and success in med school. Someone who has put infinite effort by retaking Kaplan and the MCAT a bunch of times, yet still can't get to that goal MCAT score will have a hard time in med school. I'd imagine that all that biochem, anatomy, and what not in the first year is MUCH MUCH harder than what they test in the MCAT. If one tries hard enough, he can theoretically get that goal MCAT score, but if not, then that's a completely diff story.

 

[DocBR]

And as for the 14s, there will of course be deviations i.e. super smart people. I'm sure most people didn't break 25s on their first diagnostic. I hate to say this because I sound like a typical adcom person, but there is some correlation with MCAT score and success in med school. Someone who has put infinite effort by retaking Kaplan and the MCAT a bunch of times, yet still can't get to that goal MCAT score will have a hard time in med school. I'd imagine that all that biochem, anatomy, and what not in the first year is MUCH MUCH harder than what they test in the MCAT. If one tries hard enough, he can theoretically get that goal MCAT score, but if not, then that's a completely diff story.

Many people who did not "get that goal MCAT score" could have theoretically gotten it. There are many factors that could hurt your score that are entirely outside the scope of ability. For instance, during my test someone decided to smoke in the elevator that was adjacent to our testing room. The elevator alarm was going off for 20+ minutes during the verbal reasoning section. I do not think it impacted my score (more than maybe a point) but I imagine it could have seriously impaired someone who is more sensitive to distraction.

Regardless, I was told by one of my professors who used to edit questions for tests like the MCAT, LSAT, DAT, etc that the cut off for the test to be a valid predictor of success is in the mid 20's with the major emphasis on getting a verbal reasoning score over 7-8. He said that he believes the MCAT is particularly flawed because of its inflexibility with regard to time and the level of test anxiety it generates (although he said the computerized exam should help with some of those problems).

 

[Gut Shot]

However, even the anal fistula of SW Virginia needs physicians.

Very true, and if SW Virginia really wanted to solve this problem they would develop more primary care residencies in the area establish incentives for physicians to practice there. This approach of starting a new med school in order to alleviate a shortage of doctors is akin to slinging gobs of mud in the hopes that some of it will stick.

My heart bleeds for anyone graduating from a school with no track record and carrying $200,000 of educational debt. It's indentured servitude.

 

[Jack Daniel]

Very true, and if SW Virginia really wanted to solve this problem they would develop more primary care residencies in the area establish incentives for physicians to practice there. This approach of starting a new med school in order to alleviate a shortage of doctors is akin to slinging gobs of mud in the hopes that some of it will stick.

Like you said, it's a new school. Maybe the residencies will come over time.

My heart bleeds for anyone graduating from a school with no track record and carrying $200,000 of educational debt. It's indentured servitude.

You and I have no argument here. Preach it, brother; preach it.

 

[saradoor]

One thing to bear in mind is what kind of practice you want to get into. If you like to look at asses, you probably want to be an MD 🙂 (data from 2005 shows that: out of the ~1200 Colon & Rectal Surgeons, only 2 are DOs [ref: Iserson's Getting Into A Residency 7th ed. p.26 Figure 2.9])

 

[Taty]

One thing to bear in mind is what kind of practice you want to get into. If you like to look at asses, you probably want to be an MD 🙂 (data from 2005 shows that: out of the ~1200 Colon & Rectal Surgeons, only 2 are DOs [ref: Iserson's Getting Into A Residency 7th ed. p.26 Figure 2.9])

Well, I can explain those numbers...Out of 100% of DO graduates 60% go to primary care, so here 40% goes to specialities. Compare how many docs are graduating from MD schools and how many are graduating from DO schools each year. There are definitly much more MDs than DOs and they tend to specialize more...thats why numbers of DOs are very low...

 

[QofQuimica]

Not that I really care that much, but I'm amazed that you actually took the time to look at my previous posts. You're not the only who has done that, but it still kinda freaks me out. Looking up someone's mdapplicant stuff is one thing, but ....

And as for the 14s, there will of course be deviations i.e. super smart people. I'm sure most people didn't break 25s on their first diagnostic. I hate to say this because I sound like a typical adcom person, but there is some correlation with MCAT score and success in med school. Someone who has put infinite effort by retaking Kaplan and the MCAT a bunch of times, yet still can't get to that goal MCAT score will have a hard time in med school. I'd imagine that all that biochem, anatomy, and what not in the first year is MUCH MUCH harder than what they test in the MCAT. If one tries hard enough, he can theoretically get that goal MCAT score, but if not, then that's a completely diff story.

You only have five dozen posts; it's not very much work to peruse them all. 😉 If you had thousands of them, I would have stopped after a page or two. But I think it's informative to look at people's post histories. I like knowing more about the people with whom I'm speaking. In addition, had you truly been concerned about people knowing your MCAT scores, you would not have posted them on this public forum.

So what have I learned? You're a smart guy or gal. (I believe you are male, though I don't know for sure.) You worked hard to raise your own score, and happily you reached your goal. You believe that because you were able to achieve what you achieved, anyone ought to be able to do it. But you seriously underestimate your own natural talent, and overestimate the amount of intellect needed to get through the medical school basic science courses. Since I am one of the people with thousands of posts, I will save you the time and trouble of searching through all of mine by telling you the following:

1) I have taught MCAT courses for Kaplan for over ten years, and I have worked with hundreds of students. Granted, my experiences are not double-blinded and randomized, but I daresay I have seen many more students' practice test score results than most people have. Again, I will tell you that some people who work very hard and do very well in school do not do as well as you'd expect on the MCAT based upon their level of effort to prepare for the test. There are various reasons for this (test anxiety, running out of time, English as a second language, etc.) that may have nothing to do with their motivation or intellect. Older students on the whole also tend to score lower on the test.

2) My former students who scored in the mid-twenties on the real test and went on to med school are all over the map. One I can think of offhand has earned excellent grades and is one of the top students in the class. Most became average students. Again, I submit to you that an average medical student is still far, far above the norm for the public as a whole. You'll see for yourself once you get there how difficult it is to just be average in medical school, let alone above average. In my opinion, an excellent work ethic is the single most important thing that predicts how well one will do in medical school, assuming that his or her intellect is at least average for the population as a whole, if not better. Unfortunately, there is no standardized test available to measure one's work ethic.

3) First year medical school coursework is difficult for EVERYONE, regardless of how high they scored on the MCAT. The major exceptions to that are those students who took SMPs or other med school coursework to get their GPAs in order for med school, or those who have otherwise already seen the material we're covering (ex. in grad school). The vast majority of us who are seeing this material for the first time are busting our butts. That includes me, even though I scored a 43S on the MCAT. 😎

 

[saradoor]

Well, I can explain those numbers...Out of 100% of DO graduates 60% go to primary care, so here 40% goes to specialities. Compare how many docs are graduating from MD schools and how many are graduating from DO schools each year. There are definitly much more MDs than DOs and they tend to specialize more...thats why numbers of DOs are very low...

You made it sound like more DOs are in primary care by choice but it is not the case. People who have a choice should know this in advance. Ref: Iserson's Getting Into A Residency 7th ed p.375-382

 

[Haemulon]

At least. IM is 3 years, and if you go into surgery why bother taking the boards? Surgery is 5, ped surg and additional 1-2, critical care 1 more.

Bruce, if you're still reading this, more certs doesn't equal superior. You're better off doing one thing well than doing 3 things half assed.

I was wondering about this when I read about him wanting to board in both Surg and IM. They are separate residencies and to my knowledge there are no dual residencies that would lead to cert in both. Because of federal medicare reimbursements to programs, only one residency is covered (to the tune of about 60k per year to the program that takes you on). If one were to do an IM residency for 3 years, then only 3 years of funding could be provided and it would be very difficult to convince a surg program, let alone a competitive one, to take you on for a second residency without any funding (when they could take on another candidate instead and get that funding). Now certainly one can multiple board in complementary specialties through combined-training programs and even fellowships, but am I missing something here how this can be accomplished for surg and medicine together? Med/Peds, Med/Neuro, Med/MedGen, Med/EM, etc .... definitely. Even Med/ED/CCM or Med/Derm. And of course there are a ton of surgical subspecialties that one can combine with a surg cert. I am not saying its impossible (???), just saying that it is difficult and will take quite a long time (7-8 years of residency, not including any sub specialty fellowships)

 

[dynx]

IM , Surgery/Pediatric , Surgical Critical care

I was lending you some credibility on my good faith till I saw this. How old is your mentor?

To the person who guessed 10 years to do this...guess again, and then again because you'll probably be wrong.

To the OP. There is a lot of fluff in this thread. The bottom line is that when it comes time to explore your options down the line a DO will limit you in a way an MD will not. I don't care about the reasons, but go look in the Residency forums and try to find some people who are worried because they have an MD and want a competative residency...then notice the NUMEROUS "I have a DO what are my chances to get into Derm/Ortho/Op. Even more competative programs for things like IM or general surgery have few DOs. And why does this matter? Fellowships, then jobs etc. There is a bias, people on here can debate why or if it should exist but for the time being you limit your options by having a DO. This is not a problem if you want to do primary care. Maybe a problem if you want anything else.

...this is the point where a ton of DO's throw out thier N=1 experience with a DO matching ortho to refute this post because after all, they are secure with thier degree.

 

[Tired Pigeon]

I have always been first in my class, scored fantastic on everything, and the "card carrying member of MENSA" comment was supposed to be comedic (I do have a card tho, haha 😛 )

And as far as my memory, I only say that its "proven" because I was tested as a kid. I memorized the entire "A" section of a phone book, and was able to recall any number a week later when the doc told me a name, or vice-versa. I could go on 😛

Really I'm not trying to be obnoxious or anything,

Wow. What a tool.

Just curious ... when you memorized the entire "A" section of a phone book, what page was A--hole on?

 

[RollWave11]

Wow. What a tool.

Just curious ... when you memorized the entire "A" section of a phone book, what page was A--hole on?

I sense bitterness. I think its badass. Props to the Batman.

 

[CatsandCradles]

One thing to bear in mind is what kind of practice you want to get into. If you like to look at asses, you probably want to be an MD 🙂 (data from 2005 shows that: out of the ~1200 Colon & Rectal Surgeons, only 2 are DOs [ref: Iserson's Getting Into A Residency 7th ed. p.26 Figure 2.9])

Fecal surgeons ehh?

Hmm. I have to disagree with this one here. I go to to WVSOM, and the dean of our school is a rectal surgeon. He was a podiatrist many years ago in his "previous life" he always says.

So after he became a rectal surgeon, he joked that "He was moving up in the world"

But anyhow, I think your numbers are somehow wrong. Perhaps the numbers you are looking at are allopathic board approval committees or something of that nature, cause I highly doubt that if there are only 2 DOs who are colon/rectal surgeon - cause our dean is one.

Further more, WVSOM has its own residency program in urology/rectal/"fecal" surgery residency program. Ok OK I admit it, I'm not to fond of that area of the body. I mean, who in the world really wants to sit around and look for the internal pudental artery all day long anyway?
Hope I didn't offend any of you fecal surgeons out there.

 

[blackrsx]

Nomenclature. Depends on what part of the country you're in.

lol

 

[Mars and Venus]

MD = Lexus
DO = Toyota

I think just for saying that you are going into medicine for the wrong reasons...

 

[CatsandCradles]

I think just for saying that you are going into medicine for the wrong reasons...

I have offended you in some way, so I am going to say that I apologize for this. Let me explain myself.

MD = Ford
DO = GM

Both are cars. A car is made to get from point A to point B. Both of them are made in Detroit (or at least HQ in Detrioit) And while they maybe at each others throats competitively - both comapnies do one thing: they make car automobiles. Likewise some physicians went to school at Drexel, while others went down the street at PCOM. But both went to medical school in Philadelphia - even though one is a DO and another is an MD and they both do the same thing.

The reason I made the anaology is that we see numerous numerous numerous MD vs DO threads all over the place on SDN - when many of us sometimes fail to remember that both proffessions do the very same work and are physicians. I do not own a Lexus or a Toyota - but the last time I checked - both were made by the same motor company. A lot of people do not realize that Lexus and Toyota are the same thing. I come from a small town and have friends who think that a Lexus is some wierd European car manufacture when in fact a Lexus is a Toyota. They just didn't know that Lexus and Toyota are the same thing.- they all roll off the same assembly line in Aichi, Japan.

As an undergrad, I shadowed a DO for a half a week without even knowing she was a DO! 😱 They do the same work and they all look the same when they put green scrubs on.

A car is a car. All cars are made to get's from point A to point B. Likewise, a physcian is a physician. However I can see where people will misread this analogy so again I apologize for this. I'll refrain from making such comments in the future. I hope my analogy did not upset you too much. I am very sorry about this.

C