difference between Osteopathic and allopathic?

[TexasTriathlete]

When DO's split off from MD's, MD medicine was mostly quackery. So was DO medicine, but it wasn't any worse than MD medicine. Just different. The Flexner report put MD medicine back on track, and DO's quickly followed suit.

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[foreverLaur]

think there is any hope of converting back to all MD? most DO's end up in MD residencies anyways...

i do like the concept beyond the DO. i just wish there was a way to truly make them 100%... meaning get rid of the stereotypes, perhaps take the same licensing exams, and have equal shots at all residencies.

 

[HristosKaran]

You know what would clear all of this up...why don't DO's put MD after there name instead??? DO's are still "medical doctors" last time I checked...problem solved.

 

[artaxerxes]

I agree that after board and residency DOs and MD are pretty much the same. However, up until that point, DO schools statistically have lower stats, and there really is no way of getting around it or sugarcoating it. Lets forget MCAT for a moment, the USMLE 1 pass rates for DOs is significantly lower than MDs, 96% for MDs, 87% for DOs. Yes, 87% is still very high, but the difference is quite noticeable. Also considering the fact that 83% of international med students pass the USMLE 1, the 87% US DO pass rate is especially disappointing as not all IMs are US born.

 

[Nasem]

I agree that after board and residency DOs and MD are pretty much the same. However, up until that point, DO schools statistically have lower stats, and there really is no way of getting around it or sugarcoating it. Lets forget MCAT for a moment, the USMLE 1 pass rates for DOs is significantly lower than MDs, 96% for MDs, 87% for DOs. Yes, 87% is still very high, but the difference is quite noticeable. Also considering the fact that 83% of international med students pass the USMLE 1, the 87% US DO pass rate is especially disappointing as not all IMs are US born.

you have to remember that USMLE is NOT required for DOs to take, maybe they don't study as hard for it, im more interested in MD-USMLE % vs DO-COMLEX %

 

[artaxerxes]

ahh, my stats are messed up, its actually lower than 87%.

MD pass rate: 95% first timer
DO pass rate: 77% first timer
IM: 71% first timer

You are right though, but comparing USMLE with COMLEX pass rates is not great either because they are different tests. As for why DOs take USMLE, I'm assuming to match into MD res, which should mean that they have quite a bit, although not critical, incentive for passing the exam. I believe COMLEX step1 is something in the 90's% pass rate as well. However, due to the lack of MDs taking COMLEX, that comparison cannot be made. The two tests that both DO and MD candidates take are MCAT and the USMLE (lesser extent for DOs), and the stats speak for themselves.

 

[Meatwad]

think there is any hope of converting back to all MD? most DO's end up in MD residencies anyways...

i do like the concept beyond the DO. i just wish there was a way to truly make them 100%... meaning get rid of the stereotypes, perhaps take the same licensing exams, and have equal shots at all residencies.

Why would you want to convert your degree after your education? You went through four years of hell to be able to place those two letters after your name. I'd be protective of them, not trying to discredit them by admitting they are inferior; because that's basically what trying to convert them is implying.

 

[Meatwad]

ahh, my stats are messed up, its actually lower than 87%.

MD pass rate: 95% first timer
DO pass rate: 77% first timer
IM: 71% first timer

You are right though, but comparing USMLE with COMLEX pass rates is not great either because they are different tests. As for why DOs take USMLE, I'm assuming to match into MD res, which should mean that they have quite a bit, although not critical, incentive for passing the exam. I believe COMLEX step1 is something in the 90's% pass rate as well. However, due to the lack of MDs taking COMLEX, that comparison cannot be made. The two tests that both DO and MD candidates take are MCAT and the USMLE (lesser extent for DOs), and the stats speak for themselves.

I'd like to propose an interesting mechanism for why DOs have a lower passing rate on the USMLE than MD seniors. It will be a bit assumptive and maybe even insulting to some at a point.

OK, why would a DO take the USMLE? To get into a US allopathic residency. Let's say you are a DO student in the top 10% of your class, great grades, extracurriculars, etc. This is impressive, but let's say you want to get into dermatology or neurosurgery, two competitive fields. What are your chances of getting into allopathic residencies for either of these specialties as a DO? Not great, regardless of grades, etc. Now, DOs are allowed to apply to osteopathic residencies in dermatology and neurosurgery, which MDs can not apply to.

So, now imagine you are this top student. What is more realistic with your status as a DO and your stats from school: landing a DO dermatology gig or an allopathic one? Obviously, the former. So why waste your time taking the USMLE? Focus 110% on the COMLEX, kill it, and you probably have a good chance of matching somewhere.

Now, how does this affect the system on the macroscopic level (ha... too much biology and chemistry studying today)? For the most part, it seems students with excellent stats (top of the class, killer test scores) tend to gravitate towards more competitive specialties, which are all available as osteopathic residencies save for Rad Onc or Plastics. So I would propose that all these uber-students at DO schools would realize it is not realistic they will match at allopathic residencies for Derm, Ophtho, Neurosurg, etc., so it is really a waste of their time to take the USMLE. So now you have the best and the brightest (as far as we can measure brightness) removed from the pool of USMLE takers.

This leaves the slightly above average, average, and below average DO students to take the USMLE. Some will do great on the USMLE, some will barely pass. Since this pool of students can be considered less academically proficient than their DO counterparts who opted out of the USMLE to only take the COMLEX, we can imagine the pass rates would be dragged down. Couple this with the fact that some of these students will just take the USMLE for the hell of it, not getting stressed out about it. They know if they do OK on the COMLEX, they can match at an osteopathic residency.

This makes some offensive assumptions about the test-taking skills of those who weren't top students in med school, but I'm assuming there is some sort of correlation between performance in medical school and licensing exams. It may not be a causal one, but some sort of connection.

Personally, this is how I would look at it. If I went to a DO school and was gunning for derm, I'd go balls out studying for the COMLEX and not care about the USMLE. An allopathic derm residency would be so hard to get, why bother wasting my resources trying to obtain it?

 

[foreverLaur]

Why would you want to convert your degree after your education? You went through four years of hell to be able to place those two letters after your name. I'd be protective of them, not trying to discredit them by admitting they are inferior; because that's basically what trying to convert them is implying.

I meant more along the lines of having the DO schools grant an MD instead of a DO. Those extra classes that DO students take could be electives in MD curriculum to satisfy those who really like what DO has to offer. It would just get rid of stereotypes, judgments, discriminations, and the need to take two sets of boards.

 

[jon stewart]

think there is any hope of converting back to all MD? most DO's end up in MD residencies anyways...

i do like the concept beyond the DO. i just wish there was a way to truly make them 100%... meaning get rid of the stereotypes, perhaps take the same licensing exams, and have equal shots at all residencies.

yes...they should just take out omm from the DO curriculum, make the DO schools MD schools, get rid of comlex, just have usmle. Then they should get rid of DO residencies and then just convert them to allo residencys.

What would you learn differently anyway if you did the same residency as a DO or MD?

 

[artaxerxes]

I'd like to propose an interesting mechanism for why DOs have a lower passing rate on the USMLE than MD seniors. It will be a bit assumptive and maybe even insulting to some at a point.

OK, why would a DO take the USMLE? To get into a US allopathic residency. Let's say you are a DO student in the top 10% of your class, great grades, extracurriculars, etc. This is impressive, but let's say you want to get into dermatology or neurosurgery, two competitive fields. What are your chances of getting into allopathic residencies for either of these specialties as a DO? Not great, regardless of grades, etc. Now, DOs are allowed to apply to osteopathic residencies in dermatology and neurosurgery, which MDs can not apply to.

So, now imagine you are this top student. What is more realistic with your status as a DO and your stats from school: landing a DO dermatology gig or an allopathic one? Obviously, the former. So why waste your time taking the USMLE? Focus 110% on the COMLEX, kill it, and you probably have a good chance of matching somewhere.

Now, how does this affect the system on the macroscopic level (ha... too much biology and chemistry studying today)? For the most part, it seems students with excellent stats (top of the class, killer test scores) tend to gravitate towards more competitive specialties, which are all available as osteopathic residencies save for Rad Onc or Plastics. So I would propose that all these uber-students at DO schools would realize it is not realistic they will match at allopathic residencies for Derm, Ophtho, Neurosurg, etc., so it is really a waste of their time to take the USMLE. So now you have the best and the brightest (as far as we can measure brightness) removed from the pool of USMLE takers.

This leaves the slightly above average, average, and below average DO students to take the USMLE. Some will do great on the USMLE, some will barely pass. Since this pool of students can be considered less academically proficient than their DO counterparts who opted out of the USMLE to only take the COMLEX, we can imagine the pass rates would be dragged down. Couple this with the fact that some of these students will just take the USMLE for the hell of it, not getting stressed out about it. They know if they do OK on the COMLEX, they can match at an osteopathic residency.

This makes some offensive assumptions about the test-taking skills of those who weren't top students in med school, but I'm assuming there is some sort of correlation between performance in medical school and licensing exams. It may not be a causal one, but some sort of connection.

Personally, this is how I would look at it. If I went to a DO school and was gunning for derm, I'd go balls out studying for the COMLEX and not care about the USMLE. An allopathic derm residency would be so hard to get, why bother wasting my resources trying to obtain it?

thats a good theory, although why would below average DOs apply to MD res? and I wonder just what exactly motivates DOs in general to apply for MD residencies, other than exclusive ones.

 

[Meatwad]

thats a good theory, although why would below average DOs apply to MD res? and I wonder just what exactly motivates DOs in general to apply for MD residencies, other than exclusive ones.

Training is usually considered more diverse, more options for location (few DO residencies scattered mostly in certain states), easier time getting into a subspecialty (cardiology, gastroenterology), and I'm sure more that I'm missing.

As to answer why a lower-ranked DO student would apply to MD residencies, is because primary care isn't hard to get, but you still can end up not matching. For the above reasons, if you were going into primary care, it'd be in your interest to apply broadly. You want to increase your pool of possibilities if you are weaker, not narrow it. Agreed?

 

[Bacchus]

thats a good theory, although why would below average DOs apply to MD res? and I wonder just what exactly motivates DOs in general to apply for MD residencies, other than exclusive ones.

If I would want to match into general surgery, why would I not apply to both to increase my chances? Granted: I need to know that I have an excellent shot and that if granted my DO residency before MD residency, which usually happens, I will have to take the DO residency. Its all about odds, I feel. Same reason I'm applying to both types of schools and same reasons I'll apply to both residencies, more than likely, but I'll make that decision in 5 years from now.

 

[Bacchus]

No need to lie to the kids. It is more difficult to specialize as a DO because there are fewer Osteopathic specialty residencies than there are in the MD world. And DOs applying to allopathic residencies still suffer from bias, in that the assumption is that they are subpar compared to the average MD grad.

Stats aren't everything in medical school, but it's worth considering if you're interested in a surgical subspecialty. Most people aren't going to end up like JPH coming out of an osteopathic medical school.

Are there not less DO graduates needing residencies? Isn't it proportional to the amount of graduates? I'm asking because I don't know.

 

[Meatwad]

Are there not less DO graduates needing residencies? Isn't it proportional to the amount of graduates? I'm asking because I don't know.

As far as I know, there are not enough osteopathic residencies as their are graduates. So if everything were simply 1-to-1 here, DOs would be fighting for the "leftover," allopathic residencies. This isn't what really happens of course, but I don't think it is proportional. Maybe this doesn't address what you asked... I'm confused by your VR-like wording.

 

[Bacchus]

As far as I know, there are not enough osteopathic residencies as their are graduates. So if everything were simply 1-to-1 here, DOs would be fighting for the "leftover," allopathic residencies. This isn't what really happens of course, but I don't think it is proportional. Maybe this doesn't address what you asked... I'm confused by your VR-like wording.

Maybe I can write like VR but I sure as hell can't do it. It answers my question. I was basically asking if there was a 1:1 ratio of spots (obviously maybe not for what you want.)

 

[Kthanksbye]

When DO's split off from MD's, MD medicine was mostly quackery. So was DO medicine, but it wasn't any worse than MD medicine. Just different. The Flexner report put MD medicine back on track, and DO's quickly followed suit.

Yes, there were a lot of quacks around in all disciplines, but to say that all the MD were just as quacky as Still is not accurate. This was a time of major medical advances. Lister had developed sterile surgical techniques, medical science was just beginning. But Still actually was a quack, and the DOs did not throw off that yolk until after he was gone. While the medical sciences were busy advancing, Still was shaking babies and fighting against those advancements. You cannot fight quackery with more quackery. The DO schools will teach you a VERY revisionist history of Still and the origins of the practice, chiefly because the truth is a bit embarrassing. When Still died, he insisted that the DOs never cross over to MD type medicine. That's what they did though. In reality, they need to take the next step and MERGE. There is no reason to maintain two regulating bodies over physicians that do the exact same thing. It only hurts the DOs, and the nation could use the increase in med schools. Some did merge in California, much to the chagrin of the DOs at the time. But since today, they practice exactly the same medicine, there is no reason to maintain the DO name. They CLAIM to practice a type of medicine that is somehow more "holistic" and say they "look at the whole body, not just the disease", but this is a bunch of rhetorical nonsense and serves mainly as an advertising slogan in an attempt to attract the "alternative medicine" crowd. They take a few token classes to try to justify the claim, but there is nothing that makes a DO inherently any more "holistic" than an MD.

This may offend some committed to the DO line, but we need to be able to always take an honest look at historical events, and not gloss over the parts we don't like. MDs can do this because they are not wedded to one specific founder who they revere beyond reason. The fact that there were quack MDs does not diminish what MDs are today. The mention that Still was a quack, while not reflecting on the many DOs who do not swallow the line, still infuriates those who wish to believe the revisionist histories that you can easily find on most DO websites.

And no, if you have a DO, you are not an MD. The letters matter. You can't just change them because it's less confusing. I'm sure there would be a lot of angry DOs if a bunch of MDs went around with DO patches on their lab coats. You could change them, however, if they were to decide to merge with the AMA and create 26 odd more MD schools. They really should do this, because I believe, in an attempt to compete with MD schools by offering something more to students (along with making their deadlines way later than the MD deadlines), they have really zeroed in on how best to approach the teaching of the medical sciences. Something which historically, the MD schools haven't put much energy into, having more of a sink or swim philosophy, but they are starting to come around. Because of this, the DO schools actually do a pretty good job of teaching, if you can get past all the A.T. Still sillyness.

And the word "allopath" is meaningless and should be discontinued (see above post).

 

[sailence]

So if they are essentialy the same thing why does someone that does not plan oin going into plastics and rad. onco. not apply to both DO and MD schools? Why is this frowned upon?

 

[Nasem]

Yes, there were a lot of quacks around in all disciplines, but to say that all the MD were just as quacky as Still is not accurate. This was a time of major medical advances. Lister had developed sterile surgical techniques, medical science was just beginning. But Still actually was a quack, and the DOs did not throw off that yolk until after he was gone. While the medical sciences were busy advancing, Still was shaking babies and fighting against those advancements. You cannot fight quackery with more quackery. The DO schools will teach you a VERY revisionist history of Still and the origins of the practice, chiefly because the truth is a bit embarrassing. When Still died, he insisted that the DOs never cross over to MD type medicine. That's what they did though. In reality, they need to take the next step and MERGE. There is no reason to maintain two regulating bodies over physicians that do the exact same thing. It only hurts the DOs, and the nation could use the increase in med schools. Some did merge in California, much to the chagrin of the DOs at the time. But since today, they practice exactly the same medicine, there is no reason to maintain the DO name. They CLAIM to practice a type of medicine that is somehow more "holistic" and say they "look at the whole body, not just the disease", but this is a bunch of rhetorical nonsense and serves mainly as an advertising slogan in an attempt to attract the "alternative medicine" crowd. They take a few token classes to try to justify the claim, but there is nothing that makes a DO inherently any more "holistic" than an MD.

That might be true, but you cannot say that in an Osteo interview and when asked "what do you know of osteo medicine"

 

[Kthanksbye]

If you are in a DO interview, you must nod you head and say Still was a visionary and I really want to practice holistic medicine and all that stuff. I have too big of a mouth. I'd probably slip up and leak out something they don't want to hear. TRUTH TO POWER!

 

[Bacchus]

If you are in a DO interview, you must nod you head and say Still was a visionary and I really want to practice holistic medicine and all that stuff. I have too big of a mouth. I'd probably slip up and leak out something they don't want to hear. TRUTH TO POWER!

Both classes of physicians practice holistic medicine, which I'm positive you'd agree with me on. However, at the interview, I plan on stressing my interest in OMM. That way I don't have to BS and will be telling the truth.

 

[supernareg]

when will people stop lying to themselves? DO's are MD rejects. plain and simple, end of story.

if not, they why arent there more DOs? why dont people apply to DO only instead of MD? (when they have a 36MCAT and 3.8gpa?)

DO's are the subpar MDs

 

[TexasTriathlete]

Because most major MD schools offer certain advantages. Large teaching hospitals, etc..At a lot of DO schools, you have to move around a lot for rotations, sometimes going all over the country.

If there were DO schools with similar resources as the big MD schools, you would certainly see that. Probably pretty regularly.

But you can still get an MD-quality education at DO schools. It's the same curriculum. There can be no arguing this point. Your education will be what you make of it.

 

[Kthanksbye]

Both classes of physicians practice holistic medicine, which I'm positive you'd agree with me on. However, at the interview, I plan on stressing my interest in OMM. That way I don't have to BS and will be telling the truth.

I would say the word "holistic" is almost meaningless in the context of modern medicine. Neither practice approaches patients in a meaningfully different way. The incentives to practice preventative medicine are the same for each branch in the practical world. If two patients are treated for the same problem at an ER, one by a DO and one by an MD, there is nothing that either would do differently than the other that would reflect a different training. Every physician is searching for the best (evidence-based) treatment modalities for the problems they face.

 

[Bacchus]

I would say the word "holistic" is almost meaningless in the context of modern medicine. Neither practice approaches patients in a meaningfully different way. The incentives to practice preventative medicine are the same for each branch in the practical world. If two patients are treated for the same problem at an ER, one by a DO and one by an MD, there is nothing that either would do differently than the other that would reflect a different training. Every physician is searching for the best (evidence-based) treatment modalities for the problems they face.

I agree. Perhaps "Holistic" wasn't the best term to use. Your scenario above is a perfect example of how the bridge between the two bridges has diminished.

 

[Bacchus]

when will people stop lying to themselves? DO's are MD rejects. plain and simple, end of story.

if not, they why arent there more DOs? why dont people apply to DO only instead of MD? (when they have a 36MCAT and 3.8gpa?)

DO's are the subpar MDs

There are DO institutions that rival MD institutions. As far as the credentials above, you can find a spotting of applicants on MDapps that have applied both DO and MD with excellent stats. This goes to show, that excellent students will apply to DO schools. And I'm sure there are even more students then just the sampling size on MDapps.

 

[BigRedPremed]

There are DO institutions that rival MD institutions. As far as the credentials above, you can find a spotting of applicants on MDapps that have applied both DO and MD with excellent stats. This goes to show, that excellent students will apply to DO schools. And I'm sure there are even more students then just the sampling size on MDapps.

Please show me someone with a 3.8/35 applying to DO schools because they just love the philosophy so much.

While the other poster was not politically correct, he/she is correct. DO schools are commonly used as a backup or an alternative route to becoming a doctor by students without the credentials to get into allopathic schools. This doesn't mean DO's are subpar or inferior doctors. But, given the choice, practically all students would choose a MD school over a DO school. The ones applying to both are the ones that are on the borderline.

 

[Bacchus]

I'm on the borderline but depending on what each school produces for me, I'll fall over to that side fast.

 

[Revenant]

I'm on the borderline but depending on what each school produces for me, I'll fall over to that side fast.

Given my experience on both boards I'm beginning to think less A-holes apply D.O.

Maybe that would be a reason to apply D.O. also...

 

[supernareg]

As far as the credentials above, you can find a spotting of applicants on MDapps that have applied both DO and MD with excellent stats. This goes to show, that excellent students will apply to DO schools. And I'm sure there are even more students then just the sampling size on MDapps.

thats cause if they dont get into an MD school, they'll go to DO.

if they get both, they'll go with MD. DO = back up... for rejection.

stop lying to urselves guys. open ur eyes and see with me

 

[Pansit]

Please show me someone with a 3.8/35 applying to DO schools because they just love the philosophy so much.

While the other poster was not politically correct, he/she is correct. DO schools are commonly used as a backup or an alternative route to becoming a doctor by students without the credentials to get into allopathic schools. This doesn't mean DO's are subpar or inferior doctors. But, given the choice, practically all students would choose a MD school over a DO school. The ones applying to both are the ones that are on the borderline.

Here you go, it was quite easy...I did a search, picked one random DO school and this pops up:

37 mcat, 3.95 gpa, applied to Des Moines University, accepted, and is matriculating there...

http://mdapplicants.com/viewprofile.php?id=4699

DMU by the way has a gpa average of 3.64 and mcat of 27...pretty similar to quite a few MD schools, and even a much higher gpa, which they like more because the gpa is a greater indicator for the COMLEX than mcat is.

 

[Revenant]

thats cause if they dont get into an MD school, they'll go to DO.

if they get both, they'll go with MD. DO = back up... for rejection.

stop lying to urselves guys. open ur eyes and see with me

Flawless logic. Arbitrary rankings say school X is better than school Y, therefore given the opportunity someone would have to be insane to choose school Y over school X.

 

[Bacchus]

Given my experience on both boards I'm beginning to think less A-holes apply D.O.

Maybe that would be a reason to apply D.O. also...

Read my mind, haha. Not that everyone on pre-allo fits that description, of course.

 

[osli]

DO schools do seem to pander toward mediocrity in terms of stats.

They don't "pander" to mediocrity of stats, they simply place more importance on the journey the applicant has gone through before application. More importance elsewhere = less importance on numerical stats = many applicants being accepted with lower stats than the MD average = DO average stats below MD average stats.

This isn't rocket science. Here, I'll make an equally insulting statement so that you might better understand...

"MD schools do seem to pander toward the less developed in terms of maturity."

 

[osli]

Yes, for a great many students DO is a backup or alternative to MD. With a lack of physicians in this country, I'm glad there is a means by which we can produce more physicians. And the system allows the exceptional DO students who either chose the DO route, were non-traditional and didn't have the "magic numbers" at the time they decided to go into medicine, or matured in their academic focus later and became superb students only in med school to compete for the same specialties as any other medical graduate. The system works.

Imagine for a moment there were an AMA/AOA merger. Do you think acceptance stats for the converted schools would suddenly skyrocket? Of course not. The same people are going to be applying to the same schools. I'd expect a few people who had better numbers to apply to these converts who would otherwise have gone seeking an established MD school simply due to geography, so the averages of the established and converted MD schools would converge just a bit from where things stand today. But then there would still be, for many many years at least, a clear average difference in acceptance stats from the "old" and "new" MD schools.

So MD students at old schools would still point to the converted schools and label them as subpar. The irony is that you can point to many individual MD schools today as being subpar in the same way, and can point to many DO schools as being on par in the same way. The couple of med students in this thread that can't do that... that have to point fingers and place labels based on group letters and not on individual schools, or better yet individual students, are just showing that they have a nasty form of prejudice that probably runs a lot deeper than petty MD/DO discussions. I feel sorry for them, their families, and especially their future patients.

BTW, if you're looking for anecdotal examples of excellent DO students' stats, I think the student in my class with the 39 MCAT and exceptional GPA, who also teaches an MCAT section (for Kaplan I believe), and only applied to our school would suffice. But why the farce of wanting singular examples? You know full well that you really want to hide behind averages so that you don't have to acknowledge outstanding applicants or schools on the other side of the fence, as well as below average schools and students on your side of the fence.

 

[Wustl]

thats cause if they dont get into an MD school, they'll go to DO.

if they get both, they'll go with MD. DO = back up... for rejection.

stop lying to urselves guys. open ur eyes and see with me

above poster makes me sick.

 

[BigRedPremed]

These threads always degenerate into fighting because people refuse to agree on two basic principles:

1. DO physicians are just as qualified as MD physicians.

2. Given the choice, most premeds would prefer to have the letters M.D. after their name.

 

[jon stewart]

mdapps should not be used to back anyone up...anyone can post whatever they want on there.

I there a msar for DO schools? i haven't heard of one

lets stop sugar coating things. The majority of DO schools have lower admission stats. If anyone got into a MD school and DO school, everyone knows that they would pick the MD school. Stop deluding yourself. Now if they only got into a DO school, then thats great too. I am not bashing DO's, in the end when you actually work, this issue wont come up. But trying to equalize pretty much all MD schools with DO schools is sugar coating sub-par applicants...

yea lower end MD schools and higher up DO schools may have closer admission stats.

and why is that DO poeple use MD apps....are these poeple illiterate? it says MD apps. Someone should come up with a DO apps, otherwise they shouldn't be allowed to publish their app process for DO schools on MD apps (sarcasm). But there are anal pre meds so my flame shield is on.

 

[Meatwad]

mdapps should not be used to back anyone up...anyone can post whatever they want on there.

I there a msar for DO schools? i haven't heard of one

lets stop sugar coating things. The majority of DO schools have lower admission stats. If anyone got into a MD school and DO school, everyone knows that they would pick the MD school. Stop deluding yourself. Now if they only got into a DO school, then thats great too. I am not bashing DO's, in the end when you actually work, this issue wont come up. But trying to equalize pretty much all MD schools with DO schools is sugar coating sub-par applicants...

yea lower end MD schools and higher up DO schools may have closer admission stats.

and why is that DO poeple use MD apps....are these poeple illiterate? it says MD apps. Someone should come up with a DO apps, otherwise they shouldn't be allowed to publish their app process for DO schools on MD apps (sarcasm). But there are anal pre meds so my flame shield is on.

I'm not so sure...

Example: I apply to a DO school and an MD school, accepted to both. Let's say I have a 3.9/34, and I get a full-ride scholarship to the DO school and nothing from the MD school, which costs $33,000 per year. I think I might choose the DO school, and am sure others would as well.

 

[BigRedPremed]

I'm not so sure...

Example: I apply to a DO school and an MD school, accepted to both. Let's say I have a 3.9/34, and I get a full-ride scholarship to the DO school and nothing from the MD school, which costs $33,000 per year. I think I might choose the DO school, and am sure others would as well.

There are two things wrong with this statement:

1) I haven't seen too many people with 3.9/34's applying to DO's. You?

2) Another poster is of the opinion that DO schools don't look at your numbers as much and therefore emphasize intangibles. I don't agree but under that logic, no DO school is going to give you a full ride just because you have numbers above their averages.

 

[osli]

I was accepted to both and chose the DO for a variety of reasons. I was reasonably competitive at most MD schools at the time of application, and with another year to actually take prerequisite courses and prepare for the MCAT I would have been a very strong candidate. But coming from a background where my dad wasn't an MD and I wasn't told I would be a doctor since age five, I didn't have any inherent bias between MD's and DO's. I looked at my acceptances, evaluated my future career goals, and decided I'd rather attend and graduate from a top DO school than a mid or lower tiered MD school. There may be some bias to overcome when residency matching comes around, but I hope that will be offset by a superior education and higher board scores due to better preparation.

 

[Bacchus]

If anyone got into a MD school and DO school, everyone knows that they would pick the MD school.

If my trend of GPA continues for this and next semester I see myself having a decent chance at a majority of the Philadelphia schools (sans Penn and dependent on the MCAT). That being said, if I was looking at choosing between PCOM, Temple, or Drexel, I would seriously be leaning towards PCOM. It gets me just outside the city, has outstanding faculty, is well known, and rotates with many hospitals in the area. Additionally, my aspirations won't be limited at PCOM granted I don't get on the derm/plastics/blahblah kick (but a lot of that is on self success). That's just an example, because I doubt I'll have 3 acceptances, but one can wish and dream.

 

[jon stewart]

thats good for you, i hope you researched your residency limitations quite extensively. Also, graduating from a top DO doesnt mean anything. Its just like the med school app, poeple come from harvard to asu to no name school x. Everyone gets into diff med schools. Just like bombing the mcat wont mean anything regardless of where you went to undergrad, going to a top DO school wont mean much until you take comlex. Now this doesnt mean that you are going to do bad or anything. Same thing with MD schools, stanford vs howard. Wont matter if you board scores suck. Now perhaps you want to do family practice, or something that isnt as competitive and perhaps whats why you went DO, i can only assume since you were very specific to your reasons.

still where is the msar of DO schools? Where is the mdapps for DO schools?

 

[osli]

thats good for you, i hope you researched your residency limitations quite extensively. Also, graduating from a top DO doesnt mean anything....

Wont matter if you board scores suck. Now perhaps you want to do family practice, or something that isnt as competitive and perhaps whats why you went DO, i can only assume since you were very specific to your reasons.

I think you should slow down, take a step back to see the big picture, and then turn your focus back towards yourself to understand why your inherent bias clouds your perceptions.

You are absolutely correct that going to a "top" DO school means nothing... as far as name goes. Obviously, if I thought that "name" was going to mean more in my future than anything else, including residency matching, I would have gone to a mid or lower tiered MD school.

And your assumption about my career goals couldn't be further from the mark. Top on my list before entering school was rads and ortho, and rads is holding steady at or very near the top still. What I thought was most important in accomplishing my goals was getting a good education such that I was very comfortable with the material, well prepared to shine on rotations, and equipped to make a great USMLE score. Not every school's curriculum will suit every student, and likewise I took a look at my options and chose the school that I felt had the best approach to teaching medicine. Board pass rates are very good, match list is very good, and the clinical emphasis to prepare me for rotations (where I feel the strength of good LoR's can help in my goals) is outstanding.

Am I the exception? Likely. Am I alone? Hardly - many of my classmates went through very similar thought processes.

It really is a tough decision. Do you go to a MD school where you feel the curriculum is outdated and the prevailing attitude is much more of an old-school "sink or swim" one, or do you go to a DO school where you feel you will get a better education and have to fight bias later in the residency match process? You roll the dice... bias vs. board scores and LoR. Which is stronger? I'm an optimist, and always root for the better side of humanity, so I'm placing my eggs in the "rational people will take the better qualified candidate, regardless of where he/she came from" basket. I hope I'm right. It's sad that this bias exists, but that's life.

 

[jon stewart]

you chose a DO school, but you already are thinking of taking the usmle? Perhaps you are already at that time. Rads is very hard for allo students as it is. I know ortho is a good field for either md or do's. I know a ms3 do now at des moines. Well not there now, but is on rotations. I am not bashing DO's. Go back and search my posts and read them if you think i am. You are willing to go the harder route eventually, like you have stated, because you feel this DO school matches your personal preference? I guess if that makes you more comfortable then so be it. But it seems like if you wanted to go rads or ortho and take the USMLE, you might as well have gone to a MD school. But now you have to take comlex and the usmle. I geuss it isnt that bad since you could match into osteo or allo. I already agree with you in your last paragraph. I already said that it doesnt matter in the real world.

 

[Bacchus]

Someone needs to "hold the phone" and slow the hell down.

 

[osli]

I'm a second year med student. And believe it or not, and despite the statistics of pass rates of USMLE for DO's, I felt that out of the acceptances I had I chose the school that would best prepare me for rotations (LoR), boards (including USMLE) and life.

 

[Bacchus]

still where is the msar of DO schools? Where is the mdapps for DO schools?

You can find the school's data on its website. Unlike the 120something (I believe) allopathic schools, there are only 21 +/- 2 osteopathic schools. That being said, its more conceivable to research the osteopathic schools by their websites rather than a central source. MDapps has both allo and osteo schools on it because the creator decided to code it that way. Why pay for two domain names when you can use one? Outside of SDN, I doubt hardly anyone uses MDapps since its a joint project made by the creator of SDN (I believe).

 

[Meatwad]

There are two things wrong with this statement:

1) I haven't seen too many people with 3.9/34's applying to DO's. You?

That is an irrelevant fact. I never stated most 3.9/34 students apply to DO schools. I only stated if I had a 3.9/34, I would apply to a DO school in hopes of a scholarship.

2) Another poster is of the opinion that DO schools don't look at your numbers as much and therefore emphasize intangibles. I don't agree but under that logic, no DO school is going to give you a full ride just because you have numbers above their averages.

I don't agree either. I agree they emphasize intangibles to a great extent, but not to one where they "don't look at your numbers." I think a DO school would be just as impressed by a 4.0/45 as an MD school would. With that said, I seriously doubt anyone with a 3.0/26 has ever received a full scholarship to a DO school. I doubt that a 3.9/34 has not received a full ride, though, given that they have a good all-around application (ECs, volunteer activities, etc.)

Bottom line is, if I can kill the COMLEX/USMLE and be in the top 15% of my class, a lot of doors are open to me as either an MD or DO. I need to put myself in an environment in which I feel I could fluorish. I'd much rather go to a DO school if I love the curriculum, faculty, and location than an MD school that I felt sucked. DO does not equal a death knell for specialization; DMUCOM produces a smaller percentage of primary care graduates per year than Harvard.

Let's look at it this way, too. Most pre-meds, as well as people in general, believe your GPA/MCAT score represent whether or not you are a smart person. Being smart correlates to academic success, which is what medical school requires. So, what are my chances of getting a 4.0 and being top 15% at a school like JHU, Harvard, UCSF, etc? I know many schools are H/P/F, but many are not as well. So, if the class is graded on a curve, would I rather:

1) Go to a school with "geniuses," (in the conventional sense, GPA/MCAT) who set the curve
or
2) Go to a school with "average," students (many DO schools have < 3.5 GPA averages/<30 MCAT averages) who set the curve

Since your school plays little importance in securing a residency spot when compared to COMLEX/USMLE scores, LORs during rotations, scholastic achievements in med school (grades, ranking, etc.), I think the choice between MD vs DO becomes much harder. Throw into the mix that DOs can apply to their own exclusive derm, rads, neurosurgery, ortho, ENT, etc. residencies. Go on further, couple this with a scholarship, and my decision would be all but made up for me.

At this point, I would not give two ****s about the letters after my name. The ability to secure a residency of my choice is far higher on my list of priorities. For the reasons listed above, I feel a DO school could provide that oppurtunity, if the circumstances above have been met.

 

[Wustl]

very tactfully said.