Difference between Practicing from State to State, and in Ontario??

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hijinxx7

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I know that depending on which state you reside in the US, a DPM allows you to perform different procedures. I read that in some states amputation of toes for example is allowed and in others, it is not.

If a DPM were to return to Ontario to practice, what procedures/prescriptions/orthodics/etc are they *presently* restricted to perform in comparison with most US states?

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hijinxx7 said:
I know that depending on which state you reside in the US, a DPM allows you to perform different procedures. I read that in some states amputation of toes for example is allowed and in others, it is not.

If a DPM were to return to Ontario to practice, what procedures/prescriptions/orthodics/etc are they *presently* restricted to perform in comparison with most US states?

each state has its set laws for practice and scope and i believe someone posted on the podiatry students forum a link to all the states' scopes of practice. Some states will allow for foot and ankle surgery and workup up to the hip (i.e. Georgia) while others will restrict you to strictly forefoot and maybe midfoot surgery (i.e. New York)

As per the DPM returning to Ontario, this is a bit complicated because as it stands no new DPMs will be able to return to Ontario to practice the US-scope of podiatry for another 3 years at least because there is a current cap on all new podiatrists in the province. The current DPMs of Ontario I believe are restricted to forefoot surgeries (Hammer toes, bunions, etc.) and can perscribe medications pertaining to the conditions of the foot and ankle. They are definately big on orthotics as well. The reason for this limited scope is because the DPMs in Ontario are of the older generation - if you contact the DPMs there you will see that they all graduated more than 2 decades ago - so their level of training is very different than ours at the moment. You should keep in mind that this limited scope is subject to change and is only in the province of Ontario as most of the other provinces have adapted the US-model of practice.
 
hijinxx7 said:
I know that depending on which state you reside in the US, a DPM allows you to perform different procedures. I read that in some states amputation of toes for example is allowed and in others, it is not.

If a DPM were to return to Ontario to practice, what procedures/prescriptions/orthodics/etc are they *presently* restricted to perform in comparison with most US states?

According to a classmate of mine, he told me that in Ontario, Podiatrists are able to perform surgical procedures in the office only. This would restrict the Podiatrist from doing any major reconstructive foot or ankle surgical cases since those cases require general or spinal anesthesia. Basically, I guess one would be limited to surgical procedures that can be done under local anesthesia (such as hammertoes, bunions, soft tissue excision, etc..). I am not sure if Podiatrists in Ontario are allowed to have a certified surgical suite in the office. My recommendation would be to shadow a US trained Podiatrist (including residency training within the past 5 years or so) in Ontario and ask him/her questions about the Province restrictions. Of course, any Canadian students in Podiatry school can also answer this question better than I can.
 
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Podman said:
each state has its set laws for practice and scope and i believe someone posted on the podiatry students forum a link to all the states' scopes of practice. Some states will allow for foot and ankle surgery and workup up to the hip (i.e. Georgia) while others will restrict you to strictly forefoot and maybe midfoot surgery (i.e. New York)

As per the DPM returning to Ontario, this is a bit complicated because as it stands no new DPMs will be able to return to Ontario to practice the US-scope of podiatry for another 3 years at least because there is a current cap on all new podiatrists in the province. The current DPMs of Ontario I believe are restricted to forefoot surgeries (Hammer toes, bunions, etc.) and can perscribe medications pertaining to the conditions of the foot and ankle. They are definately big on orthotics as well. The reason for this limited scope is because the DPMs in Ontario are of the older generation - if you contact the DPMs there you will see that they all graduated more than 2 decades ago - so their level of training is very different than ours at the moment. You should keep in mind that this limited scope is subject to change and is only in the province of Ontario as most of the other provinces have adapted the US-model of practice.



Is anyone aware of the current status of this change in Ontario? I know in BC they have adapted the US model of practice. I understand that most DPMs in Ontario at the moment differ in experience and training than graduates nowadays. (Sort of makes things unfair, they should begin to consider allowing new grads with today's residency experience to practice with a different scope).
 
Alberta and BC require a DPM from a US accredited school to practice podiatric medicine in Canada. All other provinces/territories allow BSc Podiatry (Britain and Australia) or DCh (Ontario) to practice podiatric medicine.

In Ontario, DPMs are restricted to bone surgery of the forefoot, done in their own ER suites (none of us DCh or DPM have OR privileges). Rearfoot, ankle etc are the domain of orthopedic surgeons. Many DPMs (self reported, surveys) do not perform very many bone surgeries. This is due in part to Canada's universal health care. Most Ontarians are reluctant to pay for something they could get for free through the hospital, from an orthopedic surgeon. There are many in Ontario that are very good at foot procedures.

Chiropodists are lobbying for more rights, including the right to use the designation Podiatrist (as UK and Australia have adopted this title as well, without adopting the DPM model of training). In order for this to take place, the Podiatry association requested that the cap on new Podiatrists be lifted.

Chiropodists are NOT going away. Canadians are not keen on surgical intervention for minor problems, not everything can and should be fixed with a bone saw and scalpel. Major bone procedures are not covered by private insurance companies in Canada, there has never been call for that in our system of universal health care where it is free thru a hospital. This will probably not change very quickly, you know how much we love our universal health care. This is part of why Podiatrists were reluctant to come to Canada in the first place. Most of our Podiatrists are Canadian born people who chose to train in USA and return home, not foreign trained Podiatrists looking to cash in on an untapped market.

Chiropodists are no longer technicians, we are primary health care practitioners providing podiatric care to the Ontario public. :)

I've also posted some of the politics/history of profession in the Podiatry string. I'll answer any questions you have.

hijinxx7 said:
Is anyone aware of the current status of this change in Ontario? I know in BC they have adapted the US model of practice. I understand that most DPMs in Ontario at the moment differ in experience and training than graduates nowadays. (Sort of makes things unfair, they should begin to consider allowing new grads with today's residency experience to practice with a different scope).
 
sarah12300 said:
Alberta and BC require a DPM from a US accredited school to practice podiatric medicine in Canada. All other provinces/territories allow BSc Podiatry (Britain and Australia) or DCh (Ontario) to practice podiatric medicine.

In Ontario, DPMs are restricted to bone surgery of the forefoot, done in their own ER suites (none of us DCh or DPM have OR privileges). Rearfoot, ankle etc are the domain of orthopedic surgeons. Many DPMs (self reported, surveys) do not perform very many bone surgeries. This is due in part to Canada's universal health care. Most Ontarians are reluctant to pay for something they could get for free through the hospital, from an orthopedic surgeon. There are many in Ontario that are very good at foot procedures.

Chiropodists are lobbying for more rights, including the right to use the designation Podiatrist (as UK and Australia have adopted this title as well, without adopting the DPM model of training). In order for this to take place, the Podiatry association requested that the cap on new Podiatrists be lifted.

Chiropodists are NOT going away. Canadians are not keen on surgical intervention for minor problems, not everything can and should be fixed with a bone saw and scalpel. Major bone procedures are not covered by private insurance companies in Canada, there has never been call for that in our system of universal health care where it is free thru a hospital. This will probably not change very quickly, you know how much we love our universal health care. This is part of why Podiatrists were reluctant to come to Canada in the first place. Most of our Podiatrists are Canadian born people who chose to train in USA and return home, not foreign trained Podiatrists looking to cash in on an untapped market.

Chiropodists are no longer technicians, we are primary health care practitioners providing podiatric care to the Ontario public. :)

I've also posted some of the politics/history of profession in the Podiatry string. I'll answer any questions you have.

If chiropodists are not going away then why are they seeking the designation of podiatrist? Don't get me wrong I fully support anyone who understands how vital providing foot care is to the public, but why blur the lines between a healthcare provider's training? It seems to me that it would be confusing and even misleading to the public to call chiropodists podiatrists if there is a difference in training and privelages between the two. I think chiropody sounds like a great profession. Why push for a name change?
 
sarah12300 said:
Alberta and BC require a DPM from a US accredited school to practice podiatric medicine in Canada. All other provinces/territories allow BSc Podiatry (Britain and Australia) or DCh (Ontario) to practice podiatric medicine.

In Ontario, DPMs are restricted to bone surgery of the forefoot, done in their own ER suites (none of us DCh or DPM have OR privileges). Rearfoot, ankle etc are the domain of orthopedic surgeons. Many DPMs (self reported, surveys) do not perform very many bone surgeries. This is due in part to Canada's universal health care. Most Ontarians are reluctant to pay for something they could get for free through the hospital, from an orthopedic surgeon. There are many in Ontario that are very good at foot procedures.

Chiropodists are lobbying for more rights, including the right to use the designation Podiatrist (as UK and Australia have adopted this title as well, without adopting the DPM model of training). In order for this to take place, the Podiatry association requested that the cap on new Podiatrists be lifted.

Chiropodists are NOT going away. Canadians are not keen on surgical intervention for minor problems, not everything can and should be fixed with a bone saw and scalpel. Major bone procedures are not covered by private insurance companies in Canada, there has never been call for that in our system of universal health care where it is free thru a hospital. This will probably not change very quickly, you know how much we love our universal health care. This is part of why Podiatrists were reluctant to come to Canada in the first place. Most of our Podiatrists are Canadian born people who chose to train in USA and return home, not foreign trained Podiatrists looking to cash in on an untapped market.

Chiropodists are no longer technicians, we are primary health care practitioners providing podiatric care to the Ontario public. :)

I've also posted some of the politics/history of profession in the Podiatry string. I'll answer any questions you have.



I know of someone who obtained a DCh in Ontario, and subsequently went to Britain to obtain a BSc in Podiatry.

Any reason why someone would do this when a DCh already grants you the rights and to practice podiatry?

Also is there advanced standing giving to a DCh graduate into BSc program in podiatry in Britain? If so, what school and what are the details of that?
 
Chiropody: Chiro is hand, Pody is feet. The term is old, from when we used to treat both hands and feet. Chiropodists are no longer involved in the treatment of hands, and our scope involves only Podiatric Medicine. If you look at all our books and the names of our courses, they are Podiatric, not Chiropodial. The term Podiatrist is not restricted to people who have recieved a DPM internationally. Everywhere else, there are diplomas, BSc, MSc etc Podiatry. If you want to add invasive surgery, you obtain more training, but you are not forced to do surgery or spend time/money learning surgery to be a member of the profession. Not everyone wants to cut people open, we need generalists, specialists and surgeons in Foot Care. You can either do everything somewhat poorly, or do a few things well. One system is not better than the other, they both complement the health care system in place.

To clear it up: There is very little difference between scope and privileges of DCh and DPM in Ontario, and gaps in legislation affect both groups, both groups are pushing for change. None of us have hospital privileges, there is no drug act for either group. DPMs and DChs are members of ONE college, proposed changes will benefit both.

The term Chiropody is misleading in itself, and very confusing to the public. I heard of one student who joined the Chiropody program thinking it was Chiropractic college and dropped out when he realized he'd be treating feet. Ontario is the only place in the world that still uses the term. We are not pushing to be called Doctors, we are not representing ourselves as DPMs or misleading the public. We are practicing Podiatric Medicine.

The model of care that we are working towards is a better fit for majority of the Ontario public than the either DPM model or the Chiropody model, with major surgical cases being handled by OHIP and universal health care. This really is a case of History and Politics.
Government sponsorship of the Chiropody model was dropped, and our scope was increased without adequate legislative backing to give DChs the tools to carry out our full scope, acting as primary care providers with a set of delegated acts as allowed in the legislation, inspite of more than adequate training. DCh training has increased much faster than the Government has acted to change to legislation, in part thanks to our very progressive school. Trust me, the name change is minor.

Here's the kicker, I can call myself a Podiatrist if I say it in French. I can call myself Dr. and Podiatrist anywhere in Canada but Alberta, BC and Ontario, I can call myself Podiatrist in UK and Australia/New Zealand/Singapore etc. The only doors closed to me internationally are US, BC, Que and Alberta. Our training is very similar, except that we do not do bone surgery ourselves. Also consider that the Canadian public is much less open to elective surgery in general (including podiatric and cosmetic) preferring non-invasive treatments first.

Our profession has evolved since it was brought to Ontario and we deserve much more credit than has been given, we are NOT technicians. We can obtain advanced standing at Temple, credit-by-examination for the theory portion and our clinical experience is fully recognized, the only addition is the surgical residency (in-hospital training). That is how close our training is to the US DPM model. Remember that US podiatry is a modification of the Original British foot care, we came from the same root and are not very different. US foot care have evolved to meet the demands of the US public, and so too has Ontario and British foot care. We are allowed to evolve, should evolve, and it is not necessary to dump the current system and adopt the US DPM model to provide quality foot care.




gustydoc said:
If chiropodists are not going away then why are they seeking the designation of podiatrist? Don't get me wrong I fully support anyone who understands how vital providing foot care is to the public, but why blur the lines between a healthcare provider's training? It seems to me that it would be confusing and even misleading to the public to call chiropodists podiatrists if there is a difference in training and privelages between the two. I think chiropody sounds like a great profession. Why push for a name change?
 
hijinxx7 said:
I know of someone who obtained a DCh in Ontario, and subsequently went to Britain to obtain a BSc in Podiatry.

Any reason why someone would do this when a DCh already grants you the rights and to practice podiatry?

Also is there advanced standing giving to a DCh graduate into BSc program in podiatry in Britain? If so, what school and what are the details of that?

Basically all we have to do is a research project to get the BSc Podiatry (Hons), but most of us already have an honours degree from previous study. I would probably be allowed to go straight to the Masters program with my diploma because of my degree; people who have similar credentials have been admitted directly in the past.
An advanced standing program is in place to grandfather UK Diploma holders as well as Canadians who wish to upgrade to the Degree (Brighton University), but as enrollment drops, the program will probably be cut. This is especially true since we are now required to have a degree before starting Chiropody; fewer people will need to upgrade to qualify for further studies.
 
sarah12300 said:
Our profession has evolved since it was brought to Ontario and we deserve much more credit than has been given, we are NOT technicians. We can obtain advanced standing at Temple, credit-by-examination for the theory portion and our clinical experience is fully recognized, the only addition is the surgical residency (in-hospital training). That is how close our training is to the US DPM model. Remember that US podiatry is a modification of the Original British foot care, we came from the same root and are not very different. US foot care have evolved to meet the demands of the US public, and so too has Ontario and British foot care. We are allowed to evolve, should evolve, and it is not necessary to dump the current system and adopt the US DPM model to provide quality foot care.

I have posted some more information about the Michener / Temple affiliation on the Podiatry Student forum.
 
Sarah,

As an (former?) Ontario resident, and a student that once considered the Chiropody program at Michener, I'm curious to know what chiropodist incomes are like in Ontario. From what I've seen online there is a HUGE range, and many a disapointed chiropodist lurking around (just as with any health profession I suppose). So, as long as the question is not too intrusive, could you please fill us all in on the financial rewards of Ontario chiropody?

Regards.
 
jefguth said:
Sarah,

As an (former?) Ontario resident, and a student that once considered the Chiropody program at Michener, I'm curious to know what chiropodist incomes are like in Ontario. From what I've seen online there is a HUGE range, and many a disapointed chiropodist lurking around (just as with any health profession I suppose). So, as long as the question is not too intrusive, could you please fill us all in on the financial rewards of Ontario chiropody?

Regards.

I've just started, I work casual coverage in a public clinic (25-35 canadian/hour base rate is common depending on experience, hard to find this info due to lack of posted positions so I'll share) and will be working towards building up my own clientelle at a private group practice. There are very few full time or even part time jobs.

When you are in private, it all depends on how much you want to work and how many patients you can bring in - your overhead. It's important to do a good job to get return clients, and good word-of-mouth advertising. It's also important not to waste supplies, start cutting from the edge of the felt ;) Rent, (highest in large centers, hence the group practice) electric, plus phone bill, lease on a Point-of-sale for credit card and interac, paper, business cards, lease on chair (or payments on bank loan), receptionist/bookkeeper/accountant instruments, consumable supplies, autoclave, ultrasonic, blablabla.... Overhead for some people I know was 50%-ish, they have full time reception.

I'm not sure what your fee schedule is, but generally in ON, we charge around $50 for assessments, $35-40 for treatments (nail care callus reduction etc). And currently, no one I know about charges by unit of time (like dental hygenists do, something to think about for those people who refuse to come in frequently enough and refuse to toss the crap shoes, charge them same for 45 min with 20 HDs and major callus as a 15 min chip-n-clip. $400-500 for orthotics, $250-300 for nail surgeries, $20-ish for short weekly apts (warts, wound care).

So. Long story short. First few years, really crappy. Nothing is handed to you in Ontario. There are major costs if you start on your own, $40 000-ish for a set up with basic new equipment, less if used. If you get something good going, and are willing to put the hours in and keep costs low, the sky is the limit. Plus you're going to compete with foot care nurses who give care for $15-25 dollars, and there are still some public clinics hanging on for dear life giving free treatment. People are becoming more willing to pay. We'll see how it goes. I've heard year salary ranges from $70-300 thousand a year. I'm just hoping to cover my living expenses/student loan payments and have some left over to advertise my practice when it gets started.
 
Thanks for sharing Sarah, I'm now studing optometry in the states, it was quite a long time ago that I was looking at chiropdy, but I'm sure there will be many people that will benefit from you insight here. BTW, sounds as though you've faced many of the same challenges that OD's encounter when starting a practice; high overhead, slow trickle of patients at first.

Best of luck with the endeavor!
 
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