differences among corporations

[Ace85]

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Hey everyone,

I'll be graduating next year and hope to work corporate for a year while I figure out where exactly I want to settle down/work private practice. Are any corporate options better than others? Is there a difference for a new grad between LensCrafters/Pearle/VisionWorks/America's Best/etc?

 

[KHE]

Hey everyone,

I'll be graduating next year and hope to work corporate for a year while I figure out where exactly I want to settle down/work private practice. Are any corporate options better than others? Is there a difference for a new grad between LensCrafters/Pearle/VisionWorks/America's Best/etc?

America's Best is universally horrible.

All the others SEEM to have people who are thrilled with their arrangements and others who have been abused or have had horrible relationships with their corporations.

At the end of the day though it's basically the same thing. If the optical is doing well, or is doing as well as the optical/district/regional manager THINKS it should be doing, you will generally be left alone.

Once it gets to the point where the optical/district/regional manager THINKS that it is NOT doing as well as it should be, that's when you'll get "the visit."

 

[Meibomian SxN]

America's Best is universally horrible.

All the others SEEM to have people who are thrilled with their arrangements and others who have been abused or have had horrible relationships with their corporations.

At the end of the day though it's basically the same thing. If the optical is doing well, or is doing as well as the optical/district/regional manager THINKS it should be doing, you will generally be left alone.

Once it gets to the point where the optical/district/regional manager THINKS that it is NOT doing as well as it should be, that's when you'll get "the visit."

👍 +1

 

[20DOC20]

America's Best is probably the most horrible. Anything owned by National Vision, INC is horrible. The reason is because of their official Mission Statement (as of 2011 copied from an employee manual):

"Growing toward $1 Billion in sales by the end of the decade via Professional Happy Associates creating Loyal Happy Customers."

They are 100% about profit, nothing else. What is missing from this mission statement is the whole purpose of anyone employed in the eye care industry from optician to optometrist to ophthalmologist and that is: the purpose of all our jobs is to make people see better and to prevent early vision loss.

I've worked for these people for years and they care nothing about patient care. They would gladly hire an optometrist who does 15 minute eye exams -really just refractions - (without tech support, mind you) over someone who does a comprehensive eye exam at 45 minutes solely because the doc who does exams at 15 minutes can produce the company more "customers" (not patients to National Vision) per hour and therefore more profit per hour.

The district managers in mid-level management will bully and or threaten the doctor (leverage being do this or do that or I'll pull your lease) in order to make this happen.

The last manager of a National Vision owned place filed a complaint about me to the District Manager (without even talking to me first) because one patient (to them a customer) left my lane "visibly shaken" and "quite upset." The manager smugly confronted me about it. I told her the reason the patient was upset was because I told her she was going blind. She had severe AMD and in commercial settings you must scare the patient a little in order for them to comply with any eye care beyond wearing glasses or contacts -- because really, truthfully, you are not taken seriously as a physician working in a Wal-Mart or an America's Best or even in an Eyeworks location. I mean, I've had patients with bitemporal hemianopsias (probable pituitary adenoma) REFUSE a referral because they didn't want to pay for another eye exam. I actually gave one guy a visual field print out and told him to make an appointment with a neurosurgeon and to give that field test to him. On the same note, the AMD patients refuse or forget to use the amsler grids, refuse to take their vitamins and refuse yearly follow ups ... because they don't take you seriously because you work in a commercial location. I've worked in an MD office, too, and they DO take you seriously there. It's not the degree, it's the location and the attitude of ancillary staff.

Like the patients, the staff don't take you seriously at these locations either. They follow the example of the district manager and if he bullys you, so do they. Anyway, I let this optician know how angry I was. How dare she question me and how dare she report me without talking to me first! I told her to not ever, ever question my professional decisions again and to keep her un-educated un-ABO certified nose out of my business!

I quit shortly thereafter. A year later their store is tanking because they couldn't find a doctor to replace me. I wonder why!!!

Sears used to be really good to work for but ever since they were taken over by Luxottica, they treat their OD's like cr*p with the same bullying tactics used by National Vision. Sad. When I start my own practice, I will not be doing business with Luxottica, or selling their frames out of protest.

Eyeworks is OK if you own your own lease but I do believe they specify in their contract that you can't refuse walk-ins, no matter how busy you may be. And here we go, back to same problem.

I think these places should be illegal. The state I'm working is questioning the constitutionality of such establishments. Now, in my state, private practice docs in association with private practice opticians have to have at least a 51 to 50% ownership ratio; that is, the OD must have the main ownership in the overall practice. Because of that law, the state is looking into the problem of optometrists sublessing from commercial locations.

Just know what you're getting into. The bullying issue is really not a rarity, but is becoming more and more commonplace with increased competition.

 

[20DOC20]

At the end of the day though it's basically the same thing. If the optical is doing well, or is doing as well as the optical/district/regional manager THINKS it should be doing, you will generally be left alone.

They won't leave you alone anymore. Used to be that way, but not anymore, especially in this economy.

 

[20DOC20]

I had a temp lease to a Wal-Mart location this year and I got reprimanded by their District Manager AND the management of the Wal-Mart store (not the optical) for sending patients bills for insurance overages! I was told my actions were contradictory to their customer service policies and it was suggested that I should "eat" the overages rather than collect on them -- or my lease would be terminated.

Well, I told the DM in so many words to "go to heck" and he started bullying me. Just like I'd expected. I knew that Wal-Mart would be just as bad as National Vision. I hoped they were better, but no.

For instance, I happened to have my cellphone on and I got a call from another OD on it offering me a job. I answered it while a patient was doing his FDT and told the other OD I really couldn't talk, had to go. Call lasted about a minute. As you know, threshhold FDT's take about 5 minute an eye. The patient was still testing when the call was over. This was the ONLY time I got a call when with a patient.

Well, one of the store associates noted it and told the DM I was talking on my cellphone while seeing patients. The DM told me it was "misconduct" for me to talk on my cellphone. I said it was an isolated incident, that it was another OD, and that it was, actually, none of his business. If he wanted proof, he could look at my incoming call list for the past month. (I rarely use the dang thing). I would make other outgoing calls on it outside patient times and they were all business calls. I told him he could not dictate to me which phone: the Wal-Mart phone or my cell phone I could use to make business calls or recieve them!

Other punishment for my refusal to eat the overages involved being yelled at by the DM for playing videogames on my computer when there were no patients. He wanted me to do free vision screenings using their Titmus screener during free hours. I refused because I was afraid patients would substitute if for an eye exam AND because it doesn't screen for glaucoma. Too much liability. Again, I told him to "stick it." That's my clinical decision, not his.

Another punishment involved being forced to remove my microwave from the doctor's office ... so that I had to eat the cr*p food provided by Wal-Mart or one of their sublessing food joints instead of bringing my own healthy food to heat up for lunch!

They finally found an excuse to pull my lease because they claimed my malpractice insurance waiver listed them incorrectly. It's a bunch of bull. They were listed as primary holder should there be any claims attributable to the business portion of the insurance.

This is the sort of strong-arm techniques they will use if you don't do as you're told by your District Manager.

So if you work at a Wal-Mart, don't bother collecting for overages. You'll have to eat it.

This actually places you in danger of insurance fraud, too. You MUST collect for overages, according to the letter of the law. I tried telling this to the STUPID DM and he just didn't get it.

Really, these DM's are all the dumbest people I've ever come across, and even worse, they're dumb, mean and unscrupulous ... an even more dangerous combination.

These establishments really need to be investigated closely because much of this is illegal. The state boards should be all over them, but they aren't. Maybe the FTC should get involved. It's just wrong.

 

[Shnurek]

Wait for them to fire you from an abusive commercial location and then sue them for causing malpractice due to coercion. Something like that, talk to a lawyer if you want to do something about it.

 

[20DOC20]

Wait for them to fire you from an abusive commercial location and then sue them for causing malpractice due to coercion. Something like that, talk to a lawyer if you want to do something about it.

They can't fire you unless you're an employee. Some commercial locations actually hire OD's and pay salary, such as some Eyeworks locations, but most commercial OD's are private contractors.

As such, y0u don't have the rights of an employee. You are exempt from the rights workers may have under labor law. You are an your own.

If you lease, you're a private contractor. You're self-employed. You are your own business.

In most places you lease space and equipment. With the new Wal-Mart contracts, you don't lease space, you lease days. You lease time. It's strange, yes.

So you can't really sue the people your leasing from for labor violations because you don't have the rights of a laborer. In order to have legal recourse, you must prove that you're not a true private contractor. (This is what my attorney told me).

He also said I would be fighting a costly legal battle that I was not likely to win.

I'm just saying, watch yourself! Don't plunge into a commercial contract with a Polyanna view of the world. The world of commercial optometry is a nasty place.

The best option, if you want to make extra money, is to work as a sub-sub-contractor, meaning work as a private contractor for a leasing doctor. This shields you from the bologna that the leasing doctor must deal with.

Until I get my own practice underway, this is the work agreement I've chosen. It's working nicely. I just don't like the pace. But, I don't have to deal with a nasty DM.

 

[Shnurek]

Well then they shouldn't be bullying you anyway. They aren't your boss. Tell them you will charge them with harassment and maybe even assault if they make threats of physical injury. Restraining order blackmail is good too. Game can be played both ways lol. Or if they terminate your lease just say fine, I'll tell the new doc what you guys are all about and tell the new doc the tactics to use on them in the first few days that the doc starts there lol. I'm not a lawyer and I know very little at this point about the politics of commercial optometry but I hope I helped a lil.

 

[IandI]

How can they legally get away with operating a business that is compomising patients eyecare like that ?

No Oversight Board in place to protect the publics interest when business entity and healthcare provider are in these type of relationships ?

Seems like 20Doc20 should have a better place then SDN to voice these concerns and seek remedy.

If an O.D. really is the integral link for "Growing toward $1 Billion in sales by the end of the decade via Professional Happy Associates creating Loyal Happy Customers."

They ( BigBox ) should be doing the opposite and treating the Docs very well, without you how many eye products could they sell ?

AOA is really dropping the ball, O.D.'s should take a stand themselves,
they have an obligation too !
Social networks and media loves these kind of stories.

There are whistle blower laws that provide protection.
Labor laws are tough battlefield,
but questionable public safety practice gets alot of attention they don't need.

 

[20DOC20]

How can they legally get away with operating a business that is compomising patients eyecare like that ?

No Oversight Board in place to protect the publics interest when business entity and healthcare provider are in these type of relationships ?

Seems like 20Doc20 should have a better place then SDN to voice these concerns and seek remedy.

If an O.D. really is the integral link for "Growing toward $1 Billion in sales by the end of the decade via Professional Happy Associates creating Loyal Happy Customers."

They ( BigBox ) should be doing the opposite and treating the Docs very well, without you how many eye products could they sell ?

AOA is really dropping the ball, O.D.'s should take a stand themselves,
they have an obligation too !
Social networks and media loves these kind of stories.

There are whistle blower laws that provide protection.
Labor laws are tough battlefield,
but questionable public safety practice gets alot of attention they don't need.

Finally! Thank you!!!!!

The AOA could stop this if they wanted to. They've had the power, in the past, and present to change state laws so that we could first use diagnostics, then therapeutics, then orals, and now injectables, all in like ... 20 years! If they could accomplish that, then why can't they clean up commercial optometry?

Instead, they're trying to better the profession through board certification. Well, who cares if you're board certified if some corporation doesn't allow you to put that certification to it's full use???

I feel like I've been sold out. The AOA does nada to help commercial OD's and it's a reason I dropped my membership. I've had no support whatsoever from anyone in the profession.

These commercial outlets should be investigated for criminal wrongdoing in my opinion. If the AOA and state boards really knew what these folks were up to, they'd be forced to shut them down - or - look like incompetent fools in the eyes of our medical colleagues for allowing unqualified people who only have profits in mind to have authority over patient care.

The AOA worked SO HARD to get OD's privileges to treat glaucoma. I can say with 100% truth that I honestly don't have time to diagnose glaucoma. I'm only given time to do a finger-count evaluation of the visual field. The reason is because of corporate greed. I just hope and pray as I go through the day that I don't miss a low-tension glaucoma.

The state boards really have no idea what's going on because commercial OD's are afraid to bite the hand that feeds them. We ALL have a story or two to tell that would shock any member of any state board.

And the AOA wonders why it's losing members!

The optometric profession needs to do some housekeeping.

Why can't these commercial outfits be true franchises, like restaurant chains? The OD buys the business. He benefits from the franchise name. The OD hires and pays the optical staff and lab staff. He buys the products. He sells the products: glasses, contacts. The doctor should be at the top of the pyramid. The franchise pays advertising. OD pays an extra franchise fee.

You can have managers going around making sure things are done to the companies specifications such as building appearance and design and pricing, but the business franchise cannot be revoked unless it's sold. That's how restaurant chains work.

If leasing a building is involved, versus the OD buying the building, There should be a FEDERAL LAW that stating that the land lord has NO jurisdiction over any aspect of patient care ... just as if the OD had leased from a space in a strip mall from a private party. (Pricing isn't necessarily patient care. That would have to be controlled for a uniform nationwide franchise to work).

That's the solution to the problem.

And it will involve commercial OD's like me investing some money rather than taking the cheaper way out.

After all the housekeeping, if the AOA wants me to get board certified, then I will be more than happy to oblige, and I might even rejoin the AOA out of sheer gratitude.

Really, what good does all this education, DPAs, TPAs, Orals, Injectibles, do if we're not being allowed to practice optometry to the fullest?

I even signed a contract ... years ago ... that stated I could not see any patient presenting for a medical reason because it would take away from optical sales. I think it was with New West Eyeworks. They sold to National Vision. National Vision carried on with that tradition for a few years, too. I ignored them though. We just did everything off the regular books. I mean, come on!!!!!!

Help us already!

 

[20DOC20]

The reason I've divulged so much is because this is a student forum.

YOU are the future of optometry. You are our future leaders. It is YOU who will inherit this very difficult problem. It is YOU who will be the ones to fix it.

Thank you.

 

[Shnurek]

I'm glad you did and I hope to help solve this problem.

 

[PBEA]

The reason I've divulged so much is because this is a student forum.

YOU are the future of optometry. You are our future leaders. It is YOU who will inherit this very difficult problem. It is YOU who will be the ones to fix it.

Thank you.

your post here was copied to ODwire, and quite a few ODs doubt the credibility of your statements. Not me mind you, as I've had a similiar encounter with wally and attempts to illegally control the care rendered (don't dilate, don't do cl f/u's, etc), so I am in complete agreement with you. But I wonder if you might respond on ODwire to help substantiate the veracity of your claims.

 

[20DOC20]

Oh, so they doubt I'm a real optometrist. OKAY ...

Just a couple days ago I referred a patient to a retina specialist for an evaluation of a retinal lesion that appeared to amelanotic melanoma, a possible cancer metastasis to the eye from the patient's history of having a history of skin melanoma.

About 8 years ago I sent a 17-year old to a general ophthalmologist for a consult on what appeared to be Coat's disease, something I discovered upon evaluation of the peripheral retina with a 20D lens and a BIO. I'd diagnosed him correctly.

I had the first documented case of optic atrophy secondary to the HIV cocktail and that was during my first year of practice 15 years ago. The MD I had referred him to sent a report to the CDC.

Let's see ... more basic. If you have a patient with lattice degeneration, what should you do? Inform him of signs and symptoms of retinal detachment and monitor at least yearly. If there are holes in the lattice, especially sub-retinal fluid, I like to send them out for prophylactic laser or cryo.

And a very rare finding ... Polar bear tracks. Bear tracks are pigmented lesions that look like bear tracks. I have seen, only once in my career, polar bear tracks, which are white, non-pigmented lesions that look like bear tracks. Not a big deal, just an interesting anomaly. I had even considered writing this case up and making it my case presentation to the AAO to eventually help myself get board certified. Being a fellow in the AAO (you get FAAO behind your name) helps one become board certified. Anyway, the reference to this condition can be found in the Massachusetts Eye and Ear Infirmary manual.

I hope this assures you that I am an optometrist, one who has been practicing for a long time.

I've registered with OD wire under same name. I'm waiting to be verified.

Could you send me a link to the thread so that I don't have to search ODwire high and low for it?

Thanks.

 

[optsuker]

I've registered with OD wire under same name. I'm waiting to be verified.
.

You have to register with your real name on ODWire.

 

[PBEA]

Oh, so they doubt I'm a real optometrist. OKAY ...

Just a couple days ago I referred a patient to a retina specialist for an evaluation of a retinal lesion that appeared to amelanotic melanoma, a possible cancer metastasis to the eye from the patient's history of having a history of skin melanoma.

About 8 years ago I sent a 17-year old to a general ophthalmologist for a consult on what appeared to be Coat's disease, something I discovered upon evaluation of the peripheral retina with a 20D lens and a BIO. I'd diagnosed him correctly.

I had the first documented case of optic atrophy secondary to the HIV cocktail and that was during my first year of practice 15 years ago. The MD I had referred him to sent a report to the CDC.

Let's see ... more basic. If you have a patient with lattice degeneration, what should you do? Inform him of signs and symptoms of retinal detachment and monitor at least yearly. If there are holes in the lattice, especially sub-retinal fluid, I like to send them out for prophylactic laser or cryo.

And a very rare finding ... Polar bear tracks. Bear tracks are pigmented lesions that look like bear tracks. I have seen, only once in my career, polar bear tracks, which are white, non-pigmented lesions that look like bear tracks. Not a big deal, just an interesting anomaly. I had even considered writing this case up and making it my case presentation to the AAO to eventually help myself get board certified. Being a fellow in the AAO (you get FAAO behind your name) helps one become board certified. Anyway, the reference to this condition can be found in the Massachusetts Eye and Ear Infirmary manual.

I hope this assures you that I am an optometrist, one who has been practicing for a long time.

I've registered with OD wire under same name. I'm waiting to be verified.

Could you send me a link to the thread so that I don't have to search ODwire high and low for it?

Thanks.

the thread is called "wallyworld", and is listed in the "state of optometry" section.

 

[20DOC20]

I posted a reply to a totally different subject on OD wire and it seems it posts your real name! Yikes!!!

I'm not replying to the thread on OD wire that you've copied and pasted. Do you want me to be blacklisted from sea to shining sea?!?!

See, my actions say that I'm not willing to maintain confidentiality, nor am I willing to adhere to non-disclosure agreements in the circumstance that someone is breaking the law or being unethical.

Do you have any idea how much illegal activity is going on? I do. And that's why I'm keeping my ID secret.

If they don't believe me, then they can go work for Wallyworld or National Vision and see for themselves. I don't need to prove myself.

Oh, and just so you believe me, ODwire just sent me an e-mail inviting me to a webinar called Innovations in Surface Wetting. They wouldn't have sent me the email had they not authenticated my identity as an OD.

 

[20DOC20]

All of what I've told is just the tip of the iceberg.

Many years ago I was a sub-subcontractor for an OD working in a Wal-Mart location run by National Vision.

He was an outstanding OD until his girlfriend of many years dumped him. He got depressed and had to take some time off work, really medical leave.

He had a 6-day per week contract and he was off for only a few days when they pulled his lease! I lost my job when he lost his job. The new OD was paranoid and didn't want a subcontractor working for him because he was afraid I'd try to steal his lease.

National Vision treated this OD really unfairly.

_______________

After that, I'd avoided National Vision locations like the plague, but I was forced to work for them when they bought out New West Eyeworks. They fired all the DM's and replaced them with a bunch of pit bulls.

The new DM wanted to simply exercise power over us.

He was visiting one day and I left the premises. He called out after me, "You can't leave!!" (Technically, this is true. By contract we couldn't leave store premises ... but the meaning of the clause was leaving store premises, going home to watch TV, waiting by the phone for the store to call you if a walk-in comes by).

I continued walking toward my destination ...

And this Choad (which is a combination of a chump and a toad) runs after me and chastises me, "You can't leave!!"

I said, "I have to go to the bathroom."

I continued to walk off and I half-expected him to follow me into the bathroom and drag me kicking and screaming into the optical!

When I returned, he said again, "You can't leave."

I told him, "Then get me a pissing-pot to stick behind my exam chair for those inopportune times, you a-hole!"

Boy, I made an enemy of him and they harassed me and pushed me around. Gosh, I hated that place after National Vision took over. Granted, New West Eyeworks wasn't the greatest at keeping up with the insurance billing, but they were really easy to work with. The DM would take me and the store manager out to lunch and provide positive reinforcement and tell us our strengths and weaknesses. He was an ABO certified optician, too. And they canned him!!! I was so peeved.

 

[Tippytoe]

All of what I've told is just the tip of the iceberg.

Many years ago I was a sub-subcontractor for an OD working in a Wal-Mart location run by National Vision.

He was an outstanding OD until his girlfriend of many years dumped him. He got depressed and had to take some time off work, really medical leave.

He had a 6-day per week contract and he was off for only a few days when they pulled his lease! I lost my job when he lost his job. The new OD was paranoid and didn't want a subcontractor working for him because he was afraid I'd try to steal his lease.

National Vision treated this OD really unfairly.

******************************************************

Personally I thank you for sharing your story. THIS IS THE FUTURE OF OPTOMETRY. Very similar to pharmacy. Future ODs will be bought and controlled by MBAs (or even lesser training numbnuts) via corporations. They will be told when to jump and how high. Or as in your case, told when they can pee!

Private practice, which is the only real independent mode of optometry practice will soon be very rare.....due to expenses and lack of patient acccess mostly.

It's a shame. But at least I got to enjoy optometry when it was still good. Of course, I supposed being a controlled,refracting optometrist is still better than bagging grocery at the local grocery store. 🙄

 

[20DOC20]

Private practice, which is the only real independent mode of optometry practice will soon be very rare.....due to expenses and lack of patient access mostly.

I wouldn't be so sure about that.

I'm getting out of commercial optometry. I've just been approved for a great practice loan. My attorney's even reviewing the lease contract of my intended location this very moment! I'm going solo, finally!

I've been researching practice management software. The sales rep for My Vision Express told me that he's had a recent explosion of software demo requests from new graduates who are going into private practice ... not commercial practice. (Though my first pick at the moment is ODlink).

From the commercial side of point-of-view ... they're not doing as well as you think, at least on the West Coast. Their failures rest upon too large advertising budgets, usually 10 to 25% of their gross is poured into advertising. Much less for private. They hire idiots to manage the locations because hiring someone with experience costs more money ... plus ... they can't make use of the incentives included in the "Job Training Act." The products are cr*p. Seventy-five percent of the complimentary glasses provided to me by National Vision were defective. Everything from wobbles, to oversized lenses to defective AR to paint chipping off metal frames after a month. And National Vision's labs were better than the Wal-Mart lab. Oh, let's not forget EyeMart Express, "the optometrist owned company." They're, BY FAR, the worst lab I've ever encountered. They're so bad, in fact, that they're helping everyone else's businesses!

Even the Eyeworks location (formerly Binyon's) is much slower than it was 10 years ago. We used to do 3 exams and one check per hour and we now do 2 exams/check per hour. Granted, it's still too fast for my taste ... but this is an observation I've made. I worked there 10 years ago, worked somewhere else for about 8 year and have returned to it as a source of supplemental income.

My theory is that people were angry for being treated like cattle and most of them dropped out as patients and went elsewhere. We still have some people getting angry if we're running behind, but ten years ago, I'd have 3 patients mad at me at the same time, glaring at me from the waiting area!

There's still hope! If you provide a good service, you'll always have patients.

Plus ... VSP no longer covers commercial docs. Vista Optical (National Vision) doesn't bill Medicare anymore for glasses. Also, the Wal-Marts (not the National Vision Walmarts but the Vision centers owned by Wal-Mart) won't take EyeMed. I could take EyeMed as the doc, but they didn't and so they wouldn't schedule EyeMed patients. GRRHHHH!!!

Most of the job offers out here are from the private sector - not commercial. Lots of good practices coming up for sale, too.

 

[imemily]

I wouldn't be so sure about that.

I'm getting out of commercial optometry. I've just been approved for a great practice loan. My attorney's even reviewing the lease contract of my intended location this very moment! I'm going solo, finally!

I've been researching practice management software. The sales rep for My Vision Express told me that he's had a recent explosion of software demo requests from new graduates who are going into private practice ... not commercial practice. (Though my first pick at the moment is ODlink).

From the commercial side of point-of-view ... they're not doing as well as you think, at least on the West Coast. Their failures rest upon too large advertising budgets, usually 10 to 25% of their gross is poured into advertising. Much less for private. They hire idiots to manage the locations because hiring someone with experience costs more money ... plus ... they can't make use of the incentives included in the "Job Training Act." The products are cr*p. Seventy-five percent of the complimentary glasses provided to me by National Vision were defective. Everything from wobbles, to oversized lenses to defective AR to paint chipping off metal frames after a month. And National Vision's labs were better than the Wal-Mart lab. Oh, let's not forget EyeMart Express, "the optometrist owned company." They're, BY FAR, the worst lab I've ever encountered. They're so bad, in fact, that they're helping everyone else's businesses!

Even the Eyeworks location (formerly Binyon's) is much slower than it was 10 years ago. We used to do 3 exams and one check per hour and we now do 2 exams/check per hour. Granted, it's still too fast for my taste ... but this is an observation I've made. I worked there 10 years ago, worked somewhere else for about 8 year and have returned to it as a source of supplemental income.

My theory is that people were angry for being treated like cattle and most of them dropped out as patients and went elsewhere. We still have some people getting angry if we're running behind, but ten years ago, I'd have 3 patients mad at me at the same time, glaring at me from the waiting area!

There's still hope! If you provide a good service, you'll always have patients.

Plus ... VSP no longer covers commercial docs. Vista Optical (National Vision) doesn't bill Medicare anymore for glasses. Also, the Wal-Marts (not the National Vision Walmarts but the Vision centers owned by Wal-Mart) won't take EyeMed. I could take EyeMed as the doc, but they didn't and so they wouldn't schedule EyeMed patients. GRRHHHH!!!

Most of the job offers out here are from the private sector - not commercial. Lots of good practices coming up for sale, too.

Don't worry about him as he is not a practicing Optometrist.

Definitely a pre-optometry student trying to dissuade applicants from applying.

 

[IandI]

It now seems to be no doubt that,
some of the language used by Jason and Tippy Toe has developed into a pattern,
of just plain mean and nasty bantering with pre-ops and students.

Is that really necessary ?

You both made your point over and over again.

You are probably older, experienced and wiser than many of the pre-ops and students.

If you can't find a way to communicate without the belittling maybe its time to let it go.

Mentoring or whatever it is your trying to do here is obviosly not effective in this manner.
Some people have to just find out for themselves.

Its not like your unveiling ground breaking news,
yes over supply is a problem,
yes cost of O.D. is overpriced,
yes many graduates will be screwed,
some will become salty but be satisfied they at least have a job even if they can barely tolerate it,
for many of the reasons stated here and on other forums you make valid points.

Anyone interested in Optometry should research as many unbiased sources possible,
before investing their time and money etc. ect.
There are better choices ( depending on your priorities ).

What else do you guys hope to achieve on SDN ?
Some will read your posts and be discourage,
maybe choose other professions,
some will not.

What is it you really want ?

To be right, to win an argument
ok your right you win.

Jason and Tippy Toe great job setting straight,
everyone interested in Optometry as a career.
👍👍 way up !
Thank you.

There are many Optometrists on ODwire who share your concerns,
and some who feel there may be solutions if the profession does a better job of organizing,
instead of relying solely on the AOA before all is completely lost.

Though the general concensus on that forum is that new graduates will have a very difficult time,
because of much higher student loan debt and conditions in the profession today.

In all the outlook among ODWIRE practising OD's who are not just naive students,
does not appear to be as completely negative and hopeless as the picture you paint here.

 

[Jason K]

In all the outlook among ODWIRE practising OD's who are not just naive students,
does not appear to be as completely negative and hopeless as the picture you paint here.

I disagree. When you have a guy on ODWire whose been out 30+ years telling optometrists to, among other things, "Discourage anyone and everyone you can from entering the profession," and it's not met with an ounce of disagreement?....I think that pretty much says it all. I may carry my points out a little further than some would choose, but my overall outlook is not far from what's the general consensus on ODWire. The main "positive" outlooker on there right now graduated in the mid 1950s and I think you'd have a hard time telling me I'm wrong when I say he's completely out of touch with reality.

There are many Optometrists on ODwire who share your concerns,
and some who feel there may be solutions if the profession does a better job of organizing,
instead of relying solely on the AOA before all is completely lost.

You know what would be a step in the right direction for optometry? If the very people considering the profession were made fully aware of the problems we are facing now and have been facing for some time now. If those applying to the profession actually knew about the problems, I mean really knew, we probably wouldn't have new schools popping up at a time when we'd be best to close half the ones we have. It may come as a surprise to those within optometry, but most people applying to OD programs are frighteningly unaware of what's happening. Reading through a few of the threads on this forum would quickly illustrate that point. How WOULD they know? Where are they supposed to hear this stuff? The AOA? The college counselor who whips out a copy of the BLS? Instead of waiting for the AOA to change or for some collective action on the part of ODs which will likely never happen, I'm going directly to the people who need to hear what I have to say. As you well know and as I alluded to in my PM to you last week, Optometry's "upper echelon" has chosen a path of concealment for the issues we're facing as a profession. They've done it for years. I'm a little tired of it and there's no shortage of eager degree-seekers out there who will pay the price for the greed of a select few. Is that fair? How many more people need to get lured in before somehow, we decide as a profession, to let people outside of the profession know what's happening? If they choose to ignore it and figure it out for themselves, that's fine. I've said that many times. Maybe I'm not going to single-handedly rescue optometry from certain doom, but at least I, personally, am reaching out to "anyone and everyone I can to discourage them from entering the profession." Let's not forget that those aren't my words, they're the words of someone with a lot more stripes than you or I.

It now seems to be no doubt that,
some of the language used by Jason and Tippy Toe has developed into a pattern,
of just plain mean and nasty bantering with pre-ops and students.

I don't involve myself with "mean and nasty bantering with pre-opts." To say that implies that I'm out there taking shots at helpless pre-ODs with wanton disregard. There is one pre-OD who finds herself the brunt of my sarcasm from time to time, but she practically seeks it out like a moth to a flame. Bantering? Yes, "mean and nasty?" No. I will make my points and defend myself when necessary, specifically, and pretty much exclusively with the same two posters. If I employ a little sarcasm and a few pairs of Elton John frames at their expense from time to time, I'm sorry, but I fail to see how that is "mean and nasty," particularly when I'm only responding to what was directed at me. I'm a sarcastic guy. It doesn't take PhD in particle physics to see that and if someone repeatedly pokes me with a stick, well, they're going to get some home-cooked Jason K garbage as a response. I've said that over and over. I only respond with garbage when it's thrown in my direction. It's funny how I can carry on completely normal conversations on here with most posters, but it's the same two fire-starters who like to pop onto the scene, drop some volatile insults, and then vanish into thin air. Without those two, you'd probably not see all that much in the way of sarcasm from me on here.

If someone can't handle being the subject of some sarcastic remarks, that theoretical person would probably be better off keeping their instigative editorial comments to themselves rather than following other posters around the forum, dropping "land mines" at every opportunity, and then running away like a 3rd grader when their aggression is responded to. From a practical standpoint, if someone is unable to handle a little sarcasm on something as harmless as a public internet forum, that person will have a very difficult time functioning as an intern with attendings who will certainly not be overly considerate of those with delicate skin. (You need to toughen up there imemily, in the real world, if you repeatedly walk up to someone unprovoked and step on their toe, they're not going to stick out the other foot.)

A final point. Why are you here? You came on here specifically to address the negativity which I and others have been pointing to. You came here and showed no strong argument against my concerns about where the profession is heading. You came here and posted because I and others came here first and brought up the many problems optometry is facing. I, in part, got you to come here and support my claims, didn't I? That's why I'm here.

 

[KHE]

Jason,

Maybe try to make your points with a little less "verbosity."

 

[Jason K]

Jason,

Maybe try to make your points with a little less "verbosity."

You've still got the record😀

 

[PBEA]

I posted a reply to a totally different subject on OD wire and it seems it posts your real name! Yikes!!!

I'm not replying to the thread on OD wire that you've copied and pasted. Do you want me to be blacklisted from sea to shining sea?!?!

See, my actions say that I'm not willing to maintain confidentiality, nor am I willing to adhere to non-disclosure agreements in the circumstance that someone is breaking the law or being unethical.

Do you have any idea how much illegal activity is going on? I do. And that's why I'm keeping my ID secret.

If they don't believe me, then they can go work for Wallyworld or National Vision and see for themselves. I don't need to prove myself.

Oh, and just so you believe me, ODwire just sent me an e-mail inviting me to a webinar called Innovations in Surface Wetting. They wouldn't have sent me the email had they not authenticated my identity as an OD.

that thread got closed already, so don't sweat it. However, you do have the option of posting anonymously on ODwire. You can either start new threads or respond anonymously. Look around the site, you'll find it. Also, I believe you, so no need for the defense.

 

[20DOC20]

Don't worry about him as he is not a practicing Optometrist.

Definitely a pre-optometry student trying to dissuade applicants from applying.

Definitely wrong on two points.

Maybe right on one point.

I do believe the profession is saturated, but not in all areas of the Western world, nor of the world in general. There are regions that are extraordinarily under-served. It's only the West that is over-served.

The optometry schools should focus on admitting the majority of students from developing countries and regions, such as Africa, for example. Moreover, they'd be better off, and probably more financially viable in the long-term, if the started optometry schools in those areas, rather than in the US.

🙂

 

[Jason K]

The optometry schools should focus on admitting the majority of students from developing countries and regions, such as Africa, for example. Moreover, they'd be better off, and probably more financially viable in the long-term, if the started optometry schools in those areas, rather than in the US.

🙂

I think this is an interesting point. There's certainly no doubt that many parts of the world would benefit from any kind of healthcare, optometry included. The problem is, who would pay for it? Optometry schools, particularly the private ones, are currently getting a couple of hundred thousand for every OD pumped out into the western world. The lending organizations that loan the money are getting nearly twice that amount once interest is repaid. The concept of training foreign ODs in the US seems like it could definitely serve a noble purpose if those ODs were to return to their home countries, but who would foot the bill?

 

[IandI]

You know what would be a step in the right direction for optometry? If the very people considering the profession were made fully aware of the problems we are facing now and have been facing for some time now. If those applying to the profession actually knew about the problems, I mean really knew, we probably wouldn't have new schools popping up at a time when we'd be best to close half the ones we have. It may come as a surprise to those within optometry, but most people applying to OD programs are frighteningly unaware of what's happening.

I got that, you think that if you make it your mission on SDN to turn students away who are considering Optometry some schools will close and there will be some less over supply down the road.

Your smarter than that, there will always be enough applicants to cause over supply, schools will just lower the standards.

You are more than just sarcastic, you are belittling and maybe even a little bit of a bully because your natural adversaries of course are pre-ops, who are little match for you but are entitled to their say.

Why am I here ? Why not ? I have an interest in Optometry and felt that you were being a little harsh and one sided, perhaps not my place.

I only make an occasional observation, no big deal.

 

[Jason K]

Why am I here ? Why not ? I have an interest in Optometry and felt that you were being a little harsh and one sided, perhaps not my place.

I only make an occasional observation, no big deal.

If you thought I was questioning your presence here, you missed my point entirely. My point was, "Ask yourself why you are here." What brought you to post the other day? You came and posted to address my negativity. It was my words (and another poster's) that brought you to issue a response. If people don't scream and yell about certain things, no one cares, no one listens, no one discusses, and no changes are made for anyone. You came and posted that post because you wanted to respond to what I have been saying. That was my point - not that you somehow don't belong here. To say that would be ridiculous. I've also stated on other posts that the students, pre-ops, optometry students, and those considering various professions, are THE reason that this forum exists in the first place. I would never argue anything else. But if I were to come one here and say "Hey guys, optometry is really kinda bad right now, maybe you should think about another profession since you might be disappointed with the results...." not many people would listen.

I have a message to give to anyone who wishes to really look at optometry with an open mind and not just view it as they wish to see it. If you read through most of my posts (that aren't responses to complete nonsense), you'll see that they're usually void of sarcasm and/or belittlement. They offer my sincere opinions and advice. Maybe, as more of an optimist than I, you don't agree with what I have to say, and that's fine. But I think it's unreasonable for someone to make blanket generalizations about me and my intentions based on my interaction with a two specific posters.

Your smarter than that, there will always be enough applicants to cause over supply, schools will just lower the standards.

Maybe you're right on this point. But if a number of "silent readers" visit this forum or this thread and they decide to take a deeper look at things because of some of the things I've said, then I believe I've helped those people. If others choose to read it and move on to their career in optometry, that's their decision and they'll have to deal with the consequences when the time comes. People don't listen to quiet whispering about major issues, they listen to the guy screaming from the rooftops. There is no shortage of people yelling out loud over on ODWire, the problem is, everyone in the neighborhood is already aware of the problem so there's really no point to discussing it at length. Either do something or don't, but just talking about it for years on end without any action doesn't do a whole lot. I'm doing something. Maybe it doesn't amount to much on the grand scale, but at least it's something.

You are more than just sarcastic, you are belittling and maybe even a little bit of a bully because your natural adversaries of course are pre-ops, who are little match for you but are entitled to their say.

Sarcastic and belittling towards whom? Two particular posters who repeatedly attack what I say? My answers to pre-op questions contain nothing but my serious opinions on the topic at hand; no sarcasm, no belittlement. As I've said, I only meet sarcasm and belittlement with more of the same. The pre-optometrist who's met my more sarcastic side is an adult. If she can't handle some sarcasm on here, she shouldn't provoke it.

 

[IandI]

I have a message to give to anyone who wishes to really look at optometry with an open mind and not just view it as they wish to see it. If you read through most of my posts (that aren't responses to complete nonsense), you'll see that they're usually void of sarcasm and/or belittlement. They offer my sincere opinions and advice. Maybe, as more of an optimist than I, you don't agree with what I have to say, and that's fine. But I think it's unreasonable for someone to make blanket generalizations about me and my intentions based on my interaction with a two specific posters.QUOTE]

Fair enough, perhaps the students who provoked you deserve the backlash.
To be honest I really haven't examined the dialogue that far back.

But is it fair to cast such a dark light over the profession as a whole.
100k give or take, isn't alot of money with aprrox 20k off the top going to student loans but is it that bad and there are some who will do quite better than a 100k eventually and have their loans paid and have a chance to get ahead.

If any OD wanted much more they should've become a MD but obviously wanted a track that was easier = less payoff.

There are many scenarios for Optometry, but if you think yelling about the negativity will acomplish something good, that is for you decide.

I guess I do prefer to look at most thing optimistically.

 

[Jason K]

But is it fair to cast such a dark light over the profession as a whole.
100k give or take, isn't alot of money with aprrox 20k off the top going to student loans but is it that bad and there are some who will do quite better than a 100k eventually and have their loans paid and have a chance to get ahead.

If any OD wanted much more they should've become a MD but obviously wanted a track that was easier = less payoff.

There are many scenarios for Optometry, but if you think yelling about the negativity will acomplish something good, that is for you decide.

I guess I do prefer to look at most thing optimistically.

If new grads could reasonably expect 100K coming out of school, I probably wouldn't be on here, at least not with the same volume. The going rate right now for new grads, if they "win the lottery" and find a PP associateship, is between 70K and 80K. I've heard of a few who were offered more, but they are, as a rule, in places that that the vast majority of grads would not want to relocate to. Shaving 20K off 70 or 80 is vastly different from taking that from 100K. But really, I'm not on here about money alone. Sure, the salaries that are quoted by the AOA, private schools, the BLS, and online surveys are unrealistic for those entering the profession now, but that's not the primary reason I'm voicing my opinion. I'm on here because people need to be informed that the "package" they're expecting from optometry is something that exists only in their minds. By the time they figure it out, it's too late and that's why the cycle has continued for so long.

As I stated in another post, I believe most people choose optometry because they seek a balanced lifestyle, solid career prospects, good income potential, and the opportunity to provide good patient care. I don't know of a single person who goes into optometry thinking, "I really want to work in a commercial setting where I can see 6-8 patients per hour and do nothing but speedy refractions all day." No real patient care, no attention to ocular health, no patient education, no opportunity to build patient relationships...just selling eyeglasses and CLs to as many people as can be crammed through the door to make some cash for the corporation. That's not what people sign up for, but that's what most of them will be getting in a few years when they graduate. That's really why I'm here; because people are being blatantly lied to. They go into optometry with expectations that are completely reasonable, and then they discover that what they were working towards was never there to begin with. I believe (and there are plenty of ODs who agree with me) that it's the schools and the AOA that are perpetuating the concealment of the truth. It's to their benefit that as many people as possible enter the profession. Filled seats = tuition money for schools = more potential card-carrying members of the AOA. Who else is benefiting? Corporate entities and the vision plans, for starters. They're certainly not going to be complaining. Corporate optometry has been expanding like cancer for some time now since new grads are feeding it like an out-of-control plague. Vision plans (some now owned by corporate optical companies) are also benefiting.

If someone really understands what they're getting into, that they are basically buying into a profession which is heading for total commercialization, if they really get that, then I say "Go for it." But the reality is, few people who enter optometry right now have any expectation of ending up in high-volume commercial despite the fact that the numbers show that that's where they'll end up.

I'm not screaming because the income of ODs has dropped recently, everyone's income has dropped. Times are tough for everyone, not just ODs. It's not the money, it's the lies.

 

[IandI]

If new grads could reasonably expect 100K coming out of school, I probably wouldn't be on here, at least not with the same volume. The going rate right now for new grads, if they "win the lottery" and find a PP associateship, is between 70K and 80K. I've heard of a few who were offered more, but they are, as a rule, in places that that the vast majority of grads would not want to relocate to. Shaving 20K off 70 or 80 is vastly different from taking that from 100K. But really, I'm not on here about money alone. Sure, the salaries that are quoted by the AOA, private schools, the BLS, and online surveys are unrealistic for those entering the profession now, but that's not the primary reason I'm voicing my opinion. I'm on here because people need to be informed that the "package" they're expecting from optometry is something that exists only in their minds. By the time they figure it out, it's too late and that's why the cycle has continued for so long.

As I stated in another post, I believe most people choose optometry because they seek a balanced lifestyle, solid career prospects, good income potential, and the opportunity to provide good patient care. I don't know of a single person who goes into optometry thinking, "I really want to work in a commercial setting where I can see 6-8 patients per hour and do nothing but speedy refractions all day." No real patient care, no attention to ocular health, no patient education, no opportunity to build patient relationships...just selling eyeglasses and CLs to as many people as can be crammed through the door to make some cash for the corporation. That's not what people sign up for, but that's what most of them will be getting in a few years when they graduate. That's really why I'm here; because people are being blatantly lied to, they go into optometry with expectations that are completely reasonable, and then they discover that what they were working towards was never there to begin with. If someone really understands what they're getting into, that they are basically buying into a commercial profession, if they really get that, then I say "Go for it." But the reality is, few people who enter optometry right now have any expectation of ending up in commercial despite the fact that the numbers show that that's where they'll end up.

I'm not screaming because the income of ODs has dropped recently, everyone's income has dropped. Times are tough for everyone, not just ODs. It's not the money, it's the lies.

I am not an Optometrist, so I'm not trying to debate with you,
with all due respect I'm just interested and questioning to gain more knowledge,
I am not taking any position.

I am a fairly logical person who can look at most situations without emotional attachment.
I think there may be a little exaggerating on both sides of the assessments / prognosticating.
I don't imagine that most new grads will come out of school making 100k though possible for some.
If you go to school 4yrs and invest X$$$ in an OD and can not earn a 100k a couple years out ( working 40hrs ),
with the possibility that your further efforts and a few yrs experience can bring about at least the possibility 125-150k earning potential,
more if your have talent for business.
And of course the personal satisfaction of being happy and comfortable with what your doing,
is all important.

Then I would have to agree with you that Optometry is not a good investment unless you just happen to love the work.

As far as the lifestyle not being what students thought it would be !
It is their responsibility to be informed as best as they can be at 21-22 coming out of college,
to evaluate all the professions they may be interested in and make a choice they feel will suit them best for a variety of reasons,
but how could they possibly have the real insight of a professional without actually experiencing it for themselves.

Before thats even starts to happen your a couple of yrs and alot of dough into your education and the less obvious begins to reveal itself,
its not that easy or practical to walk away, once your past the half way point.

And what else can a pre-opt do but disqualify any information that goes too far Pro or Con,
which by the way would turn them off to those yelling from the rooftops and defeat your stated reason/purpose.
I think that is a very important factor if you really want to make an impression here.

I have found with just some superficial research, there are several modes of practice in Optometry and variations of situations within each mode.
Common sense tells me that the scenario you laid out above is probably one of the the worst possible case scenarios that your shinning the spotlight on though it will be a reality for some.

The question becomes how many will fall into the situation you described, and how many will end up in a much better situation and how many will end up somewhere in-between.

Is there any source of accurate data ?
Can you give percentages ?
How much does location play a role ?
How much does an individuals own characteristics count ?
etc. etc.

Does nothing matter that can change the outcome more or less favorably,
for a new grad or even someone a few years in.

 

[Jason K]

If you go to school 4yrs and invest X$$$ in an OD and can not earn a 100k a couple years out ( working 40hrs ),
with the possibility that your further efforts and a few yrs experience can bring about at least the possibility 125-150k earning potential,
more if your have talent for business.
And of course the personal satisfaction of being happy and comfortable with what your doing,
is all important.

This is exactly why I'm here. The expectations of most entering the field right now are that they can get out, find a respectable full-time job (for most people, that's going to be in a PP setting, but not everyone), start at a reasonable income level (85 to 95K), and move up in that income level with experience. The reality is, they get out, find nothing but PT commercial work or, if they're lucky, a FT commercial job. They work for less money than they should, often without benefits and they do not often find anything in the PP setting they hoped for. When they do, the pay (as it was for me) is too low to support the cost of the degree. Can someone entering the field tomorrow have a career in private practice? Sure, anything's possible, but the numbers are the numbers. Most are flooding into commercial and they're not going there out of choice.

Is there any source of accurate data ?
Can you give percentages ?

As far as I know, there are no published data on where grads are going currently. However, I have been tabulating my own data and in my class, for example, over 2/3 are in commercial settings after 6 years in practice. They are paying the bills, they're not practicing the optometry they intended. I've also been keeping track of two other programs that I'm in touch with and the numbers are actually slightly higher, which is perfectly understandable given the trends. Most go into commercial, some do residencies (and then commercial), some teach, some go into the military or IHS, etc , but the numbers are there. Most go into commercial. They don't add to or even maintain the PP side, they grow the commercial side. In my group, 6 years out, hardly any of us are in FT private practice positions. Hardly any of us own anything. Perhaps most telling; hardly any of us are happy with the outcomes of our professional training and careers. Obviously, what I'm stating cannot be "proven" or published and someone can choose to dismiss it if they wish, but it's the cold, hard, truth.

How much does location play a role ?

It does play a role. I have never denied that. If you're willing to relocate to some pretty unpleasant places (by many people's standards, not everyone's), then there are some opportunities. I've even cited some examples. But most people don't imagine themselves relocating to a rural town in the middle of the desert after graduation in order to find a full-time job.

How much does an individuals own characteristics count ?
etc. etc.

It counts here just like any other field. If you're incompetent or you're rude with patients, don't show professionalism in the workplace, etc, you're not going to succeed in optometry or any other field. My point is, if the opportunities are overly limited, it doesn't matter whether you're the best OD or the worst, the situation is what it is.

Does nothing matter that can change the outcome more or less favorably,
for a new grad or even someone a few years in.

I don't know the answer to this question. Optometrists have been upset about this problem for years and nothing has come of it. Our professional associations are plagued by misdirection and collectively, we've been unable to come together to address the problems. I believe things are simply going to get worse, unfortunately.

 

[IandI]

This is exactly why I'm here. The expectations that most people entering right now are that they can get out, find a respectable full-time job (for most people, that's going to be in a PP setting, but not everyone), start at a reasonable income level (85 to 95K), and move up in that income level with experience. The reality is, they get out, find nothing but PT commercial work or, if they're lucky, a FT commercial job. They work for less money than they should, often without benefits and they do not often find anything in the PP setting they hoped for. When they do, the pay (as it was for me) is too low to support the cost of the degree. Can someone entering the field tomorrow have a career in private practice? Sure, anything's possible, but the numbers are the numbers. Most are flooding into commercial and they're not going there out of choice.





As far as I know, there are no published data on where grads are going currently. However, I have been tabulating my own data and in my class, for example, over 2/3 are in commercial settings after 6 years in practice. They are paying the bills, they're not practicing the optometry they intended. I've also been keeping track of two other programs that I'm in touch with and the numbers are actually slightly higher, which is perfectly understandable given the trends. Most go into commercial, some do residencies (and then commercial), some teach, some go into the military or IHS, etc , but the numbers are there. Most go into commercial. They don't add to or even maintain the PP side, they grow the commercial side. In my group, 6 years out, hardly any of us are in FT private practice positions. Hardly any of us own anything. Perhaps most telling; hardly any of us are happy with the outcomes of our professional training and careers. Obviously, what I'm stating cannot be "proven" or published and someone can choose to dismiss it if they wish, but it's the cold, hard, truth.


It does play a role. I have never denied that. If you're willing to relocate to some pretty unpleasant places (by gmany people's standards, not everyone's), then there are some opportunities. I've even cited some examples. But most people don't imagine themselves relocating to a rural town in the middle of the desert after graduation in order to find a full-time job.



It counts here just like any other field. If you're incompetent or you're rude with patients, don't show professionalism in the workplace, etc, you're not going to succeed in optometry or any other field. My point is, if the opportunities are overly limited, it doesn't matter whether you're the best OD or the worst, the situation is what it is.



I don't know the answer to this question. Optometrists have been upset about this problem for years and nothing has come of it. Our professional associations are plagued by misdirection and collectively, we've been unable to come together to address the problems. I believe things are simply going to get worse, unfortunately.

Sad, you guys deserve alot better , very sad. 🙁

 

[Jason K]

Sad, you guys deserve alot better , very sad. 🙁

Most definitely no argument on that point.