Difficulty in Ivy League Graduate School Admissions

[Boilermaker]

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Is it difficult to gain admission to basic science graduate studies at IVY league schools? I have a 730 gre. I was looking at somebodies profile on MD applicants and they went to a regular state college in Florida with a 2.9 and then went to Columbia to study biology, and upon completion with a 3.8, she got 2 acceptances to US MD schools, and lots of interviews. I want to know how typical is that? I would picture it would be, because I would think most people wanting to go to the IVY for grad school want a money generating degree like law or MBA. My background is in ChemE with a 3.1/3.0 and figured if I don't get into med school I will study some additional biology to prepare before I get accepted. I applied to Washington University in St. Louis and was accepted to pursue biology studies there, but would prefer going to one of the IVY schools. WashU is basically IVY league but based on the money to go there, I would rather have an IVY degree name. I am trying to avoid at all costs going to the caribbean for med school thats why I am trying to boost my profile. Please offer some advice if the graduate degree is a flat out dumb idea or if I should just take a few more courses from like UMSL (university of missouri St. Louis), WashU, St. Louis University, or a community college at either the graduate or undergraduate level? From the trends I have noticed on MD applicants, IVY league people are given some preference I believe. Somebody got in a great DO school with a 17 MCAT from cornell and she only applied to one school with like a 2 point something overal and lower/similar science GPA. My MCAT is not crappy by the way, 30 1st time, 37 2nd time. Somebody also went to washU for undergrad with same GPA as me and 32 MCAT I think, and got into University of Missouri - Columbia, a school I really like.

 

[behealthy]

730 total on the gre? or 730 for 1/2? no one will let you in with a 730 total, especially not Columbia. For MPH programs ( the only ones I know anything about) you need 1300+, which I'd guess is the same for any MS at an Ivy.

 

[austinap]

Assuming you're not a troll... first, learn how to use paragraphs.

Second, don't go to grad school unless you want to go to grad school. Are you talking about doing a PhD or a MS? There's a huge difference in commitment and finances. In the physical sciences, you'll get a stipend if you're in a PhD program. It can also take as long as 6-7 years to get your degree from some places, so it's not a choice you should make lightly.

As far as will a PhD help you get into med school, yes it will. Provided that it is in a somewhat relevant field, you have a successful grad school career, and you can ensure that it doesn't look like you're doing it simply to switch fields. Most SDNers will disagree with me on that point, but from my experience it holds true. Every person that has graduated from my lab with the intent of going to med school has gotten into their choice of schools.

You also seem to be unreasonably obsessed with ivy (IVY!) league schools. Don't be. For graduate school many of the best programs are actually state schools, and they carry the name. A list of the top science grad schools would include MIT, Caltech, Harvard, and Berkeley. Obviously, only one of those is an ivy (you can make the list longer and you'll only be adding big state schools).

As far as "will you get in", I think that depends. Grad schools use different criteria the med schools obviously, but the good ones still have high standards. I am sure that had they wanted to go to medicine, 90% of my grad class could have gotten into med school. Grades don't seem to matter as much, but you need research experience, good grades in hard classes, good test scores, and awesome letters of rec. Many schools will also require you to take subject GREs which aren't trivial.

tldl version: don't go to grad school unless you really want to, and if you do want to it can help, but it isn't a trivial endeavor.

 

[redlight]

Is it difficult to gain admission to basic science graduate studies at IVY league schools? I have a 730 gre. I was looking at somebodies profile on MD applicants and they went to a regular state college in Florida with a 2.9 and then went to Columbia to study biology, and upon completion with a 3.8, she got 2 acceptances to US MD schools, and lots of interviews. I want to know how typical is that? I would picture it would be, because I would think most people wanting to go to the IVY for grad school want a money generating degree like law or MBA. My background is in ChemE with a 3.1/3.0 and figured if I don't get into med school I will study some additional biology to prepare before I get accepted. I applied to Washington University in St. Louis and was accepted to pursue biology studies there, but would prefer going to one of the IVY schools. WashU is basically IVY league but based on the money to go there, I would rather have an IVY degree name. I am trying to avoid at all costs going to the caribbean for med school thats why I am trying to boost my profile. Please offer some advice if the graduate degree is a flat out dumb idea or if I should just take a few more courses from like UMSL (university of missouri St. Louis), WashU, St. Louis University, or a community college at either the graduate or undergraduate level? From the trends I have noticed on MD applicants, IVY league people are given some preference I believe. Somebody got in a great DO school with a 17 MCAT from cornell and she only applied to one school with like a 2 point something overal and lower/similar science GPA. My MCAT is not crappy by the way, 30 1st time, 37 2nd time. Somebody also went to washU for undergrad with same GPA as me and 32 MCAT I think, and got into University of Missouri - Columbia, a school I really like.

you'll want to increase your undergrad gpa, not grad school gpa. grad school is known for grade inflation and it is not taken into consideration like undergrad gpas are. try and get into an ivy league post baccalaureate program if you want the ivy name.

 

[Boilermaker]

Q - 730, V - 690 for clarification, sorry about that.

 

[austinap]

While I agree that grad school grades are inflated (we take tons of seminar and research credits which are automatic As), I'm not sure that's the most important thing here. Nobody judges the success of someones graduate career based on their grades. If you do grad school for the right reasons, and do it well, you can overcome a lot of undergraduate shortcomings. You'll get some great letters, hopefully a few solid publications, and experience that very few of your peers will have.

Your undergrad GPA isn't in the realm where you'll have no chance ever. It's the in the realm where if you don't do anything else, you may have a hard time. Adcoms aren't stupid, they know that people mess up and that some fields are harder than others. A strong grad experience can overcome a lot of that, and it can prove that you don't have problems handling a heavy workload and hard material. To me, medical post-bac programs always seemed like remedial education for undergrads for whatever reason.

I'm not saying he should go to grad school. I actually think it would probably be a bad idea for the OP. At the same time, it would help him (though if he didn't really want to do research, it would probably miserable and long).

 

[Boilermaker]

Sorry about the paragraphs austinap. I am very lazy with computers and my writing on here doesn't reflect my true abilities. When I talk to friends on messenger it is even worse and I barely spell anything correct and just slop down things. I relieze though for question purposes that would be very annoying to read.

Believe it or not in a materials science and engineering course, I wrote a research paper on using a ZrO2 interfacial coating on SiC-Fibers for minicomposites and he gave me the highest score he gave on the assignment in 6 years of teaching the course, 99%.

 

[witness23]

do you have an interest in learning to study a specific field in your future? if not, 6-7 years is a long time to be unhappy

 

[Boilermaker]

Well I think that if I am doing a post bacc set of courses why not feel satisfied with hard work by having an MS degree as well? My ultimate goal is to be a doctor and it is not doing research. I just want to prove to US medical schools that I would be an acceptable candidate for admission. I think that with this inflated grading you are speaking of, and what a friend who is an MS engineering student at my old university said, that would play an advantage. This however was not on my mind for considering graduate study.

Thank you for your responses.

 

[Boilermaker]

If I actually wanted to use something I learned, I feel that I could make a contribution with engineering graduate degree/MD in the field of orthopedics, hip implants, and biomedical materials. Like I said above though, the MD is what I want first and foremost, and I thought a good named school for graduate study would put me in a position to get more interviews.

 

[Boilermaker]

I especially like that comment about difficulty in a specific field. Engineering took a lot of time to study to prepare for complicated open ended questions for every problem for 4 years. What is you PhD in, and where did you go to medical school?

 

[LizzyM]

Columbia has a very good post bac program but it is for people who have not done the pre-med requirements. I see at least a half dozen applicants from that program each year and without exception they are strong applicants (the program does the weeding out for us).

I haven't seen MS and PhD applicants from any of the Ivies although that doesn't mean that they don't exist (I see plenty of undergrads form those schools).

Your MCAT is great but your gpa is not so great, even taking into account the engineering major. You need to prove you can do the academic work on a day-to-day basis.

A SMP is most likely the best choice for you, not a MS or PhD (the first has to much grade inflation and the second takes too long).

 

[Longshanks]

A SMP is most likely the best choice for you, not a MS or PhD (the first has to much grade inflation and the second takes too long).

I just wanted to ask for some clarification quick, LizzyM, as this is something that gets said on this board a lot and something you've repeated, and you being an adcom member would be the most versed in the subject:

Is this a blanket statement that adcoms believe is the case with all MS programs, or do they realize that all aren't equal and giving out grades like candy? If it is the former, I placed myself into a poor situation after following my advisor's advice and from how the program was marketed. I know someone earlier in this thread mentioned they get easy A's for seminars and labs, I've never experienced that. We don't get any grades for seminars and labs, and our graded classes were extremely competitive. My concern is do adcom's know what different programs are that applicants come from or is it just, "oh that's an MS, what a waste" *thrown out*?

 

[Boilermaker]

If I had to guess the SMP would be put in high regard because they try to make it as difficult as the basic sciences in medical school. (I just found out what SMP meant a few minutes ago; Georgetown website) This proves you can handle medical school curriculum.

In contrast, you should never put down a MS degree though, since MS degrees vary so much based on the program, it is hard to quantify how difficult each MS degree is. In general MS degrees require at least a B (not B-) to stay in the degree which is good evidence of success in itself.

My friend's MS in engineering program was more interdisciplinary, while some focus more on a set of courses for a general focus. It just depends on if it is a research degree or not.

In general top performance in either should be positively noted, however the SMP from a top program seems have good proof of reliability. 85% eventually accepted from Georgetown that complete the program with 55-65% accepted right away. GPA is 3.0 for acceptance.

 

[LizzyM]

I just wanted to ask for some clarification quick, LizzyM, as this is something that gets said on this board a lot and something you've repeated, and you being an adcom member would be the most versed in the subject:

Is this a blanket statement that adcoms believe is the case with all MS programs, or do they realize that all aren't equal and giving out grades like candy? If it is the former, I placed myself into a poor situation after following my advisor's advice and from how the program was marketed. I know someone earlier in this thread mentioned they get easy A's for seminars and labs, I've never experienced that. We don't get any grades for seminars and labs, and our graded classes were extremely competitive. My concern is do adcom's know what different programs are that applicants come from or is it just, "oh that's an MS, what a waste" *thrown out*?

Sadly, when someone has an undegrad gpa <3.3 and a MS gpa of >3.6 it generally gets explained as grade inflation or an easy non-hard science curriculum (MPH).... fair or not, that seems to be a common perception.

If you have a undergrad gpa >3.6 then a comparable gpa in the MS program is considered another year or two of continued good work.

 

[Longshanks]

Sadly, when someone has an undegrad gpa <3.3 and a MS gpa of >3.6 it generally gets explained as grade inflation or an easy non-hard science curriculum (MPH).... fair or not, that seems to be a common perception.

If you have a undergrad gpa >3.6 then a comparable gpa in the MS program is considered another year or two of continued good work.

Alright, that sounds fair enough.

If I could ask a question specific to my situation, I had a 3.33 ugrad after recovering from a disastrous freshman year, which if I didn't have I probably would have been around 3.5-3.6. I don't expect my grad to replace the ugrad, I don't think it ever should as it doesn't make sense why a year or two should replace 4 years of work, but does a 3.7+ in my MS help at all or confirm that my ugrad gpa was brought down due to a poor freshman year when I was immature and did not have a sense of direction? Granted the grad gpa is reflective of semester gpa's from my junior and senior year.

Thank you again for your support on the site, Lizzy.

 

[Boilermaker]

It seems ridiculous that there is even such a term as grade inflation. If their is only so much one can learn in a particular course, and a grading scale has been set prior to the course starting, and the student aims for that particular level of knowledge and attains that, how is that grade inflation?

Should a score of 93 percent be an A, 92 be a B, 91 be a C, and 90 be a D, and 79 be an F if everyone was doing well. Would that help the world? I am citing a real life example with that, as my professor from India who has a PhD in engineering told me this happened in his undergrad studies.

 

[mmmcdowe]

http://www.ivygateblog.com/images/Picture 6.png

 

[LizzyM]

Believe it or not, there use to be the rule that the average performance in a class earned a C. Performance above average was a B. Exceptional performance was an A.

Some stats I saw a few years ago... 97% of our graduate students, across all schools (arts & science, engineering, etc) earned an A or a B in any given class (no +/- grading). So, unless you completely screw up your gpa is going to be something between 3.0 and 4.0. Compared with college where you could have a gpa between 0.0 and 4.0 you can see the inflation, or collapse, of the grading system.

 

[leonc]

Columbia has a very good post bac program but it is for people who have not done the pre-med requirements. I see at least a half dozen applicants from that program each year and without exception they are strong applicants (the program does the weeding out for us).

I haven't seen MS and PhD applicants from any of the Ivies although that doesn't mean that they don't exist (I see plenty of undergrads form those schools).

Your MCAT is great but your gpa is not so great, even taking into account the engineering major. You need to prove you can do the academic work on a day-to-day basis.

A SMP is most likely the best choice for you, not a MS or PhD (the first has to much grade inflation and the second takes too long).

Most post-bac programs are not intended people who have completed their premed requirements. I know that is true for both Havard and Johns Hopkins. Do you guys know if there are some great post-bac programs that are open to anyone, not just for career switch candidate?

 

[Boilermaker]

Leonc, all I know of is SMP which is geared towards students that have completed the pre-medical pre req courses and have attained a satisfactory grade point average, but want to make their profile more marketable for medical school admissions.

I think for the most part post bacc's are for people who have not completed the pre-reqs. I just looked up a college that I thought had more upper division courses in the program, and it said on the web site that they don't want people who have completed the pre-reqs.

I have seen profiles of people online that have taken upper division science courses at big 12 schools, and other reputable instituations, and upon getting a feeling that they have taken enough courses, maybe 2-10 courses, they applied to medical school and gained admitance.

I am thinking about applying to the Georgetown SMP, or the best school I can get into, IVY preferably, and take courses, or get a masters. Because I would be very proud to have that on my record, and I think there is respect for completing courses well at a top old instituation. If not, I will take courses at Wash U St. Louis, and people on admissions will recognize that in my opinion as a top instituation, just because their medical school is top notch.

 

[Longshanks]

Believe it or not, there use to be the rule that the average performance in a class earned a C. Performance above average was a B. Exceptional performance was an A.

Some stats I saw a few years ago... 97% of our graduate students, across all schools (arts & science, engineering, etc) earned an A or a B in any given class (no +/- grading). So, unless you completely screw up your gpa is going to be something between 3.0 and 4.0. Compared with college where you could have a gpa between 0.0 and 4.0 you can see the inflation, or collapse, of the grading system.

Ok, that clarifies the picture then. Thanks.

The grading at my grad hasn't been much different from my undergrad experience, seems average was a B- in almost every class with some cases where it was a C+.

Thanks for the insight.

 

[leonc]

Leonc, all I know of is SMP which is geared towards students that have completed the pre-medical pre req courses and have attained a satisfactory grade point average, but want to make their profile more marketable for medical school admissions.

I think for the most part post bacc's are for people who have not completed the pre-reqs. I just looked up a college that I thought had more upper division courses in the program, and it said on the web site that they don't want people who have completed the pre-reqs.

I have seen profiles of people online that have taken upper division science courses at big 12 schools, and other reputable instituations, and upon getting a feeling that they have taken enough courses, maybe 2-10 courses, they applied to medical school and gained admitance.

I am thinking about applying to the Georgetown SMP, or the best school I can get into, IVY preferably, and take courses, or get a masters. Because I would be very proud to have that on my record, and I think there is respect for completing courses well at a top old instituation. If not, I will take courses at Wash U St. Louis, and people on admissions will recognize that in my opinion as a top instituation, just because their medical school is top notch.

I think Im in your situation as well. But how do we apply for, let's say Havard, when we already earned a degree and do not want to get master degree? Are you talking about the extension school from Havard?

 

[Boilermaker]

Basically the extension school is a good route and has some prestige. You could definitely go there and take courses, and I believe it is cheaper. There may even be a way to take courses from Harvard College once you do well in a few courses at the extension school, it said something like that on the website.

Since I have been accepted to wash u stl, I may go there for a masters, but I will apply to the various ivies like cornell, harvard, columbia, and u penn, with columbia as being the best chance for me because I have alumni from there to boot, and because I read about somebody's stats that went to columbia.

For wash U stl, there are a lot of options in taking courses, like part time, night time student, non degree student, full time student, and others, with each I think eventually having the capability to apply towards a degree, and each has different degrees of acceptance difficulty. This may be the same for academic study at IVY schools, although I am not sure.

Most people that go IVY don't want to study an academic major for graduate studies, they want a professional major at the graduate level, so chances of studying biology may be higher if you have significant test scores to over shadow a gpa problem. This however would definitely not be the case with law school, with acceptation to maybe columbia.

Harvard Extension has prestige and that is a good route, however I am more considering getting an MS, because hey its my life and I want to have another degree on the wall. When somebody asks me where I went then I can say Purdue for engineering (somebody may say, good school for engineering) then like Columbia for an MS (then admissions might think, well thats a top institution, he should be able to handle medical school if he went to the IVY and did well).

What I would do if you are serious about spending serious money, I don't have that problem really, is look on the website first for a long time. Try to find everything about different types of graduate admission, or non-degree seeking student admission. Then call in to the school if you have additional questions, and since you have researched it, you will understand what they are telling you, and people you talk to know you are serious.

Consider strongly SMPs, but I would think there would be more pressure. Pick which ever one you would do well in and go with it. Looking at acceptance data, they are good.

If I was on admissions, and saw improvement, and a top GPA for an IVY, I wouldn't deny that person, especially if they have good ECs. If you are at an IVY school, or Harvard Extension, etc. having top letters of recommendation would help for medical school. By the time you do become a doctor, all this will look good on paper, and it may help you in the future, and maybe it won't.

 

[witness23]

graduate schools have a minimum grade requirement, something like a B- to stay on the program. Therefore, professors don't usually give out anything less than a B. The goal of the graduate program is to make you do research, many fail at that stage. I believe that attrition rate for PhDs are appx 33%. You are judged on your research not your grades. The PI that you worked with and the quality of research >>>> Grad GPA. That probably isn't relevant for med school apps either.

 

[atomi]

-

 

[Boilermaker]

In saying you have been awarded the master of science degree with a 4.0, I don't care what the so called inflation stuff says, to me that looks like a job well done. If it is not, then admissions are making a mockery of the American education system.

I would say the best way to go about it, is do what you want to do, and the best will work out. If you have a degree in MPH now I can see why that would not help, as it is not scientific and seems to be more like liberal arts/administration with some quantitative, although I have no idea what the degree is.

I think grad school GPA is typically high because students don't generally take full course loads. This however may not be true, it is just that I know a lot of grad engineering students that teach and do research, I do not think they take full course loads.

 

[Boilermaker]

That is an interesting comment about the B- witness, because a trend I have noticed amongst schools is that while the undergraduate degrees at a particular school are required to give out grades using the plus minus system, the graduate school at those particular institutions are giving out standard A B or C grades with no plus/minus.

For my situation what would you recommend I do? I have a 30 and a 37 MCAT, and around a 3.1 cumulative and science GPA. Caribbean is not somewhere were I want to attend. My DO gpa is much higher at around a 3.4 because of a couple course retakes, but would prefer to have the MD in case I want to do mission work in other countries. Should I go to a good school and get a masters degree, an SMP, or take additional coursework?

 

[235009]

When somebody asks me where I went then I can say Purdue for engineering (somebody may say, good school for engineering) then like Columbia for an MS (then admissions might think, well thats a top institution, he should be able to handle medical school if he went to the IVY and did well).

unfortunately for you people aren't stupid...they know the difference between the prestige and difficulty of columbia undergrad vs. columbia grad school. admission standards for ivy league grad schools are very very lax compared to standards for undergrad. few if any will be impressed that you did an engineering or basic science masters at columbia or any other ivy. med school admissions officers will definitely not be impressed.

no matter how much it offends your sensibilities, there is massive grade inflation in grad school....everyone basically gets an A....if you really suck you get a B.

If I was on admissions, and saw improvement, and a top GPA for an IVY, I wouldn't deny that person, especially if they have good ECs. If you are at an IVY school, or Harvard Extension, etc. having top letters of recommendation would help for medical school. By the time you do become a doctor, all this will look good on paper, and it may help you in the future, and maybe it won't.

again an ivy league basic science or engineering grad program is in no way comparable to ivy league undergrad. you don't really prove much by having a 4.0 in grad school

In saying you have been awarded the master of science degree with a 4.0, I don't care what the so called inflation stuff says, to me that looks like a job well done. If it is not, then admissions are making a mockery of the American education system.

I would say the best way to go about it, is do what you want to do, and the best will work out. If you have a degree in MPH now I can see why that would not help, as it is not scientific and seems to be more like liberal arts/administration with some quantitative, although I have no idea what the degree is.

I think grad school GPA is typically high because students don't generally take full course loads. This however may not be true, it is just that I know a lot of grad engineering students that teach and do research, I do not think they take full course loads.

1. wow you are REALLY trying to convince yourself that doing well in a MS program will get you into med school...too bad you are horribly mistaken
2. you have absolutely no idea what the value of an MPH is.....though you are right, just getting the degree wont help you get into med school, as is the case with any MS degree in science or engineering
3. if you are full time you have to take at least 12 credits....grad gpas are high for the reasons that everyone has been telling you (basically low grades aren't given out.

i think most importantly you need to work on your english.

second you need to get over your inferiority complex

third, if you are serious about becoming a doctor you should take the advice you've been given in this thread and work on improving what actually matters in admissions (GPA, MCAT, improving your english and writing skills for your personal statement and secondaries) and forget about this irrational desire to pay tens of thousands of dollars for a piece of paper from an ivy league school

 

[Longshanks]

That is an interesting comment about the B- witness, because a trend I have noticed amongst schools is that while the undergraduate degrees at a particular school are required to give out grades using the plus minus system, the graduate school at those particular institutions are giving out standard A B or C grades with no plus/minus.

For my situation what would you recommend I do? I have a 30 and a 37 MCAT, and around a 3.1 cumulative and science GPA. Caribbean is not somewhere were I want to attend. My DO gpa is much higher at around a 3.4 because of a couple course retakes, but would prefer to have the MD in case I want to do mission work in other countries. Should I go to a good school and get a masters degree, an SMP, or take additional coursework?

American DO's can do mission work in other countries. There is no restriction for that. Whether it be MSF or International Medical Corps, or whomever, they will take American DO's. The only issue with foreign practice is if you are practicing there as a temporary resident or immigrant to the country, and even then most European countries now allow American DO's to practice. You just need to be careful with the language however as "DO" and "osteopath" in Germany and England are completely different things and are essentially chiropractors, however American DO's are considered physicians.

 

[austinap]

Believe it or not, there use to be the rule that the average performance in a class earned a C. Performance above average was a B. Exceptional performance was an A.

Some stats I saw a few years ago... 97% of our graduate students, across all schools (arts & science, engineering, etc) earned an A or a B in any given class (no +/- grading). So, unless you completely screw up your gpa is going to be something between 3.0 and 4.0. Compared with college where you could have a gpa between 0.0 and 4.0 you can see the inflation, or collapse, of the grading system.

The system is completely different in grad school compared to undergraduate. As was posted earlier, we're judged by how successful our research is, other awards that we get, and how successful our PI is. Grades don't factor into it unless you're really not pulling your weight.

The reason you don't see grad students who have gotten Cs and lower in their courses is because they're no longer grad students. PhDs are probably in a different category here than masters, but we also take a number of courses that are guaranteed As, such as seminars and research. The reason is kind of a technicality--most universities require even graduate students to take a certain number of letter graded courses to be considered full time students. Since coursework is meaningless after your first two years, there needs to be some way to fill that requirement.

It is actually meaningless to compare undergrad and grad school GPAs. You could have a strong ugrad GPA, be a terrible grad student yet maintain a high GPA. This actually happens quite often. The flipside does as well - you could have poor ugrad marks, be an awesome student, but get a few Bs your first year, and it will look like you bombed the classes.

You also have to remember that at least at the top grad schools, the entire class is competitive. While everyone may get an A or a B in a given class, all of these students were at the top of their undergrad class. Many of them actually took the equivalent grad class as an undergrad, so they already know the material. Given ~50% of the class will get a B in the course, that means a lot of very bright and hard working people get Bs. It certainly doesn't make them the dunces of the class. In grad school, students don't have the same (or even equivalent) backgrounds so side-by-side comparison is hard.

In one of my first year physical organic courses, ~30% of the class were given As. Almost all of those people had taken the equivalent grad course in their undergrad. One of them had actually taken the course taught by the author of our textbook twice while she was an undergrad. It isn't surprising that she blew the rest of us away.

Ok... sorry for the long rant on ugrad vs. grad GPAs! 😀

 

[Boilermaker]

unfortunately for you people aren't stupid...they know the difference between the prestige and difficulty of columbia undergrad vs. columbia grad school. admission standards for ivy league grad schools are very very lax compared to standards for undergrad. few if any will be impressed that you did an engineering or basic science masters at columbia or any other ivy. med school admissions officers will definitely not be impressed.

no matter how much it offends your sensibilities, there is massive grade inflation in grad school....everyone basically gets an A....if you really suck you get a B.



again an ivy league basic science or engineering grad program is in no way comparable to ivy league undergrad. you don't really prove much by having a 4.0 in grad school



1. wow you are REALLY trying to convince yourself that doing well in a MS program will get you into med school...too bad you are horribly mistaken
2. you have absolutely no idea what the value of an MPH is.....though you are right, just getting the degree wont help you get into med school, as is the case with any MS degree in science or engineering
3. if you are full time you have to take at least 12 credits....grad gpas are high for the reasons that everyone has been telling you (basically low grades aren't given out.

i think most importantly you need to work on your english.

second you need to get over your inferiority complex

third, if you are serious about becoming a doctor you should take the advice you've been given in this thread and work on improving what actually matters in admissions (GPA, MCAT, improving your english and writing skills for your personal statement and secondaries) and forget about this irrational desire to pay tens of thousands of dollars for a piece of paper from an ivy league school

Thank you sir I will take your advice. I guess post-bacc or SMP is the way to go. Does a post-bacc effect your undergraduate GPA? By the way, I didn't make up that people have had dismal undergrads and got admitted after getting a masters with a good GPA. I am simply looking at my options and trying to find any track record that has worked, I know there are no absolutes. Also I loved the inferiority cut, I think I will go cry to mommy.

 

[witness23]

cuz you don't hear about the people that dont get admitted after undergrad and then do a masters and still don't get admitted

 

[genswim24]

cuz you don't hear about the people that dont get admitted after undergrad and then do a masters and still don't get admitted

I agree. They also may have improved their application in other ways during that time. This can include things such as retaking the MCAT, increasing their volunteer/shadowing, increasing their research experience, improving their essays, applying more intelligently the second time around, etc. On the outside it may seem like these people just completed their grad degree and all the sudden they got in. This is very, very rarely the case though. As a reapplicant myself, I improved my application doing all of the things I listed above. It may seem to people who don't know every little detail about me that I just magically got in this last time, but that is not the case.

All of these things I mentioned above can also be done while working full time and not paying a ton of money for a graduate degree. If you want to do a masters, have around a 3.0, and a solid MCAT, do an SMP. If not, don't think that your graduate degree is going to be what gets you in. Many others with lots of experience are trying to pound this into your head above. OP, it would be wise if you listened to their advice.

Good luck👍

 

[Boilermaker]

This was a really good message. I see you are probably right about other factors besides just the degree when these people got in.

I am going to take some courses, as well as volunteer at the hospital many hours, and do more shadowing. If I don't get in at that cycle, then I can think about doing an SMP. I have done research, volunteer work, and other things, but feel that I need to do more in the EC department as well as the good grades.

 

[Boilermaker]

Hello, this is Chris, I had started a forum about post-bacc and IVY league schools. I wanted to know if lets say I went to the Drexel program called IMS, would medical schools want to see that with a top GPA? It says on the website that if a student earns a B in the class, that is equivalent to the top 50% of the medical school, because you are curved with the medical school, which I would say is pretty good. Or would I want to make sure I have 3.5 or above?

Can you tell me all of the special masters programs available?

 

[scarletgirl777]

Basically the extension school is a good route and has some prestige. You could definitely go there and take courses, and I believe it is cheaper. There may even be a way to take courses from Harvard College once you do well in a few courses at the extension school, it said something like that on the website.

Just no. Totally different standard of admission. It is a good route to take premed courses you haven't taken, and it's a LOT cheaper, but I wouldn't understand, for example, moving across the country to take courses at Harvard Extension.

 

[Boilermaker]

Yes I agree with that, I have been talking with people about SMP, and am starting to be convinced that would be the way to go. I just hope that I would be eligible for admission to the programs at either lets say Tufts or Georgetown. I also have seen great sucess stories from Boston University. GPAs in about the 2.82 range or so, with 3.6 in the BU SMP, gaining addmitance to BUSOM.

I also have talked with people that found a school they wanted to go to, and took courses at that university and eventually got accepted there.

I just want to make the right choice and am starting to really feel that SMP has good success with gaining connection to med school, ECs with research, recommendations from professors, and a small class environment at some.